Stormweasel - 12/15/2014 - Alcheron Rising (4934)

[stormvisions]

This is the prologue and first three chapters of a novel I am pantsing. Curently first draft material - or first draft version 1.1.

 

Genre: Fantasy but there will be some sci-fi elements that will grow in importance.

 

As for specific information, as a pantser I basically pulled what I have out of the air, and I am concerned about continuity, creating arcs for the characters that shows growth (arc ?), and interweaving all those elements. In my read of this and other material each chapter seems to almost be independent - if I can explain it right. I want to make sure that each is connected and moving the story forward. In this regard I have begun making notes or summaries as a sort of outline, but a more rigid outline seems to defy my thought process.

 

There are a fair amount of characters and I had to condense a few, but it looks like there will be a few and they will all have a say. There is also a dual timeline, which will meet at a key event (a battle) in the present. I'm not sure how that will work out, it's just the way it came out.

 

I'm hoping some input will help me 'grow' my characters, make sure I develop a coherent, flowing and appealing story and helps me be accountable so that I don't lose my direction and wander aimlessly in 'someday-I-will-be-a-writer' limbo.

 

I am interested in general feedback on any other area of course, except for spelling and similar type errors as this is too early in the process.

 

Thank you.

Edited December 15, 2014 by stormweasel

[LerroyJenkins]

alright I'll be brutally honest and say that this was a little hard read. But after getting through it I think you have something good here. 

 

Prologue: Firstly, there were a lot of jumps between describing the boat and the weather in the same paragraphs, and that made it hard for me to easily imagine the scene. Robinski (a great author on this forum) told me to cut back on describing the scene in great detail. "If you're in the woods she'll just say 'woods', but will only describe relevant details". this is what he told me when describing the approach of authors like Suzane Collins who have a minimalist approach to describing scenery. So instead of describing a forest with all its flora and fauna, just state that your character is in a forest and let the reader fill in the rest themselves. Or, in your case just mention the worn and damaged white boat.

    (I assume that the prologue was supposed to get the reader intrigued with the mysterious damaged boat and its captain. But the heavy descriptions made it difficult for me to get interested.)  

 

The rest: So far I like your characters, the way that each effects at least one other character makes it fun to see from each perspective. But I still think you could clean out a whole lot of your descriptors and streamline your storytelling.

 

    I really would have liked for something to happen in the submission. Right now the only thing that really sticks out as a significant event is the arrival of the Dragon Hawk. Other than that, the characters are just going about another non-plot-progressing day and we sit in on the drudgery.

 

    I know I said I like the multiple viewpoints, but now I need to tell you the problems that I personally have with it. Every time I started to understand a character and their motivations, 'whoosh' I was in another set of eyes that could be halfway around the world for all I know. I would suggest using one character to introduce as many other characters as you can, and then you can jump freely to the characters you've introduced without completely jarring us out of the setting. When you start a chapter with a character the reader hasn't met yet, you have to treat it like the beginning of a book and tell us all the need-to-know facts about the setting all over again.

 

   Last thing: other than too many descriptors, there was another thing that made this a difficult read; run on sentences.

 

"Gliding unseen behind a pair of workmen carrying a length of rough lumber, skipping over a puddle with feet barely touching the ground she passed behind a small wagon; after glancing at the Harbor Master’s small tower to be sure there was enough fog to hide her from the small man with the dangerous smile."

 

This is one sentence, yet it is the size of a short paragraph. I think you should try this trick that I used when I struggled with this: If you can't say the sentence out loud with only one breath, then you need to shorten it.

 

  Other than all that, I think you could have a great story, keep writing! I'd love to see more of this if it is refined a bit

Edited December 16, 2014 by LerroyJenkins

[Mandamon]

The prologue was probably the weakest portion of this for me as well.  The rest of the entry was captivating and kept me reading until the end.  I'm starting to get a little information about the world, and mysteries about the characters and I want to read more to find out.  For pantsing this so far, everything is very well connected and the characters have very good starting states.  My concern is that things may spiral out of control very quickly if there's no plan for the rest of the book.  I want to see these characters grow further in the same interesting way they've started.  This is similar to what LerroyJenkins says above.  Nothing really happens here, but it's all very interesting and has my interest.  Now make something happen with these people and keep me reading.

 

In the intro, it takes a few paragraphs to get to the meat of what you're telling us, about the old man and the cargo.  I was almost ready to start skimming when I got there.  Maybe move the "thesis" so to speak closer to the opening scene to make sure you hook the reader.  In the next scene, in contrast, you instantly hook me with Tebo wondering about Johnny Apple.

 

You can probably take out some of the "said-isms."  For example:

"...I have to go down to the dock to pick up a shipment.” He hesitated for a moment then said “… and tell Johnny he can have some dinner with us tonight if he wants.” 

--we know the father is still talking, so "He hesitated for a moment then said" can become "He hesitated for a moment."  I didn't see this happen much after this point, so maybe it was just the one case.

 

I like all of the characters here.  As I read on, I get a good image of all them with only a few lines of description.  Even though you have several POVs here, you tend to weave them together well enough that I don't have any complaints about too many POVS (yet).  I also really like how each character knows each other, but they are carrying on their own life.  each feels like the story is only about them, until you get to the next character.  Contrary to Lerroy, I don't mind that we're switching from one to another, because I'm pretty sure we'll get back around soon.  That said, I don't think the story can handle many (or any) more POVs.

 

You have very captivating description.  I can see your scenes very clearly.  I also like the short named sections/chapters.  It makes me think of an old man telling the story by a fire, for some reason.

[stormvisions]

alright I'll be brutally honest and say that this was a little hard read. But after getting through it I think you have something good here. 

 

Thanks very much. This is useful critique. Part of what you mention is the very reason I came to the forum. I will have to work on a bit more of an outline to tighten the story and keep it somewhat directed.

[stormvisions]

 

The prologue was probably the weakest portion of this for me as well.  The rest of the entry was captivating and kept me reading until the end.  I'm starting to

 

Thanks for the critique -also very useful. I think I do have to make some decisions on POV. I tend to get into everyone's head - and there are more characters you haven't met. I even have one chapter where a rat is running across the street and was in the rat's head - not sure why but I'll need to make some decisions.

 

As for the old man by the fire, I originally thought of this as a somewhat different story of an old man bringing a book with a series of short stories reflective of some key virtues (honesty etc). I started to pants the 'outer' story of the old man delivering this book of stories to this kingdom in peril and this is what popped out. 

 

Anyway thanks. I'll need to put some thought into this before I keep firing.

[Robinski]

I enjoyed this, there’s a confidence in the writing style that I think is effective, I felt it flowed really well. The characters are all quite distinctive, and considering the reader is introduced to, I don’t know how many in 2,600 words, that’s good going. Introducing so many characters so quickly at the start of a novel seems a bit risky, because there is such a lot of information, and little in the way of drama, almost like it’s a list of information. The prologue is dramatic certainly, but I don’t really have any sense after this submission of what the story is about, or what the setting is. Not a huge issue, as it’s a short section, but I would be wanting that information soon.

 

Looking at the other comments, I’ll agree with Lerroy and Mandamon that the Prologue is probably the weakest part. There’s some lovely poetic description there, and I think it serves the function of a prologue in that it gives is some information that you can’t given in the context of the start of the story, but there’s not much in that prologue, barely a hint.

 

I did give Lerroy some comments on description*. They came from my perspective as a reformed detailer, but I would say that there is a some middle ground between just saying ‘woods’ and giving just a little more than that to set the scene. Blocking is something I have become much more conscious of in my own writing. I think of it is the ‘just enough’ description to allow the reader to put themselves in the scene. So, they’re in the woods, and everyone can picture that, but you might have some picturing deciduous woodland and others with an image of a pine forest, and it’s unlikely that anyone will imagine the weather unless you tell them about it. Is it hot or cold, raining or dry? These things probably don’t matter to the story, but help to create mood and might give a pantser somewhere to go with a scene if it needed a push.

 

(* - Hey Lerroy, I think maybe you meant ‘enthusiastic critic’ rather than the phrase you used. There are people on here who have read my writing, remember!!   : o )

 

I'm not meaning to contradict what Lerroy and I discussed, just saying that some description in necessary for creative purposes, but being economical is important. Characters will (should!!) always be more interesting than the weather or the grain of the wooded table.

 

Sorry, I'm prattling on, but you asked about characters too. I used to pants everything, now I right a quarter page character sketch and a 2 (ish) page plot outline covering the first half of the story. I often don’t stick to either. I don’t think you need to feel constrained by these things, quite the opposite. Think of character sketches as a trellis to support the character’s growth, but not to define it, as it’s a natural thing and could branch off the fixed path of its own accord at some point. Without the trellis though, it’s much harder for the character to grow.

 

Looking forward to reading the next submission, which I will do now! Detailed comments below.

 

Dramatic opening paragraph, the comparison to a lute bothered me a little, it’s not the most impressive of instruments.

 

I think if a mast is missing, you’re not thinking about a dangerous crossing, but of whether you’re going to make it at all. I appreciate is depends on the type of vessel, but all masts have a job to do, and if one is missing, then you’ve got major problems.

 

I had to Google ‘scrimshaw’. I’ve heard the word, but couldn’t remember what it meant. I’ll bet a fair proportion of readers wouldn’t. The opening sequence is very dramatic, and there is tension in it, despite the fact that there are no characters yet, but I think there is merit in keeping the vocabulary in the realms of the familiar, to avoid tripping people up.

 

Again, never heard the word ‘direful’ – I can guess the meaning, but why not just say ‘dire’ and then everyone will get the sense of the sentence?

 

I know I’ve quibbled about a couple of words, but I'm enjoying your writing style. To me, the grammar is good and pretty tight (not always that case on here!), and it makes the whole thing flow, but there is also a nice turn of phrase that (to me) keeps the reader engaged.

 

“...position the a final barrel...”

 

Interestingly, I’ve just commented on this with Sprouts story, but the mixing of Caucasian names with fictitious ones is rather odd to me. Johnny is such as all-American apple pie name, it sounds odd next to Garlem and Tebo.

 

I like the gentle humour in the narrative – the women apparently offended by the fish – nice. It’s also refreshing to see ‘snagged’ as an alternative to ‘grabbed’, which appears a lot around here.

 

“...snagged some cheese one of the crates...”

 

‘back pack’ one word, I think.

 

Hmm, The Needle is certainly a cold-blooded character.

 

“...grateful sisters.”  - LOL

 

Whoa, Illian? – going to have to stop you there, that’s straight out of Wheel of Time. I must presume you haven’t read those books.

 

There’s a real flood of names at the start of Magda’s section, but they are all in context, so I can accept them, although it’s verging on info dump, and I don’t expect to remember many of them if they come up again.

 

 What you’ve done intertwining the various opening scenes with the journey of Magda is interesting. I think it works.

 

“Now she opened her stride and ran in a way that showed why she was often called Magda the Fleet, or Magda Deerfoot” – this is a bit on the nose for me, you don’t need to spell everything out for the reader, trust them to work things out, especially something obvious like this.

 

“The three of them were the only ones from that night not living with someone in town.” I presume you mean the night when the ranger died, the only ones from the thirteen. I'm thinking they are orphans then, if they’re placed with families in town.

 

There’s a bit of a syntax meltdown in the section where she’s thinking about Paulus – presume others have raised that.

 

It strikes me now that “Mr. Gray” is an odd name when no one else in the story (so far) is named in that form. It acts like an illuminated sign over his head.

[stormvisions]

First off, thanks for reading and the critique.
 

>I enjoyed this, there’s a confidence in the writing style that I think is effective, ... characters are all quite distinctive, and considering the reader is introduced to, I don’t know how many in 2,600 words, that’s good going. Introducing so many characters so quickly at the start of a novel seems a bit risky, ....

 

I admit I'm a little too in love with characters. I actually had to kill and condense a couple already. When I imagine the world, I picture the story through the eys of the people. Will have to try to not let them overrun the place.

I also agree about the absence of drama. I will look at those scenes to see where I can add umph. I alrady started a rewrite of Dulcet to strengthen that one.
 

>...the Prologue is probably the weakest part. ...

 

I will look at this some more.
 

>I did give Lerroy some comments on description*. They came from my perspective as a reformed detailer, but I would say that there is a some middle ground between just saying ‘woods’ and ....

 

I will look at blocking and find a middle road. I appreciate the useful comments and observation.
 

>Sorry, I'm prattling on, but you asked about characters too. I used to pants everything, now I right a quarter page character sketch and a 2 (ish) page plot outline covering the first half of the story. I often don’t stick to either. I don’t think you need to feel constrained by these things, quite the opposite. Think of character sketches as a trellis to support the character’s growth, but not to define it, as it’s a natural thing and could branch off the fixed path of its own accord at some point. Without the trellis though, it’s much harder for the character to grow.

 

I'm trying to outline now, but seems to be a bit of a mental block. It was always the thing that stopped me. It seems to use a totally different part of the brain so when I turn on outlining, the story is gone. I tried a little something yesterday to trick the brain and seemed to work - I plan to work on it this week in the evenings. I'm just imagining an old storyteller telling the tale, and answering questions about the characters, as they sit around the campfire. In other words I am writing a rough outline as if it was a scene. Not sure why my brain dislikes the other way but it hung me up for 30 or so years until I decided to just started pantsing - which is how I wrote as a little kid.
 

>Looking forward to reading the next submission, which I will do now! Detailed comments below.

 

Awesome. It is appreciated. Nobody has tackled the 'Dinner Theatre' chapter so I hope to get some basic feedback if time allows.

>Dramatic opening paragraph, the comparison to a lute bothered me a little, it’s not the most impressive of instruments.

 

Thanks. I was looking for a period/setting-appropriate stringed instrument and that's what I came up with with, but will do more research.
 
 

>I think if a mast is missing, you’re not thinking about a dangerous crossing, but of whether you’re going to make it at all. I appreciate is depends on the type of vessel, but all masts have a job to do, and if one is missing, then you’ve got major problems.

 

That's a good point, I'll review.
 

>I had to Google ‘scrimshaw’. ... I think there is merit in keeping the vocabulary in the realms of the familiar, to avoid tripping people up.

 

Thanks for the catch. I'm an older guy, and probably read a lot of older books that use variations of words - or whole words -  which may not be as common in reading nowadays. In fact the 'scrimshaw' word was probably added to my dictionary by reading guys like Robert Louis Stevenson and Melville who wrote when whaling was a mainstay of many economies -  but I might be wrong.
 

> Again, never heard the word ‘direful’ – I can guess the meaning, but why not just say ‘dire’ and then everyone will get the sense of the sentence?

 

Again, old man dictionary in use. Forsooth, I will take your advice erelong!
 

>I know I’ve quibbled about a couple of words, but I'm enjoying your writing style. To me, the grammar is good and pretty tight (not always that case on here!), and it makes the whole thing flow, but there is also a nice turn of phrase that (to me) keeps the reader engaged.

 

Thank you.
 

>Interestingly, I’ve just commented on this with Sprouts story, but the mixing of Caucasian names with fictitious ones is rather odd to me. Johnny is such as all-American apple pie name, it sounds odd next to Garlem and Tebo.

 

Good point. I actually just made up names on the spot after spending a couple days trying to work out different etymologies (hopefully correct use of word). When I spin up the logic brain, the creative turns off and I decided I should write first and work out the names later. Johnny Apple popped into my mind because of Johnny Appleseed legends and in fact gave me an idea for characteristics for Johnny- but I need to review. I'm falling in love with the characters and need to make sure the overall story works.
 

>I like the gentle humour in the narrative – the women apparently offended by the fish – nice. It’s also refreshing to see ‘snagged’ as an alternative to ‘grabbed’, which appears a lot around here.

>“...snagged some cheese one of the crates...”  >‘back pack’ one word, I think.

 

Thanks for all the catches.
 

>Hmm, The Needle is certainly a cold-blooded character.

 

He is. Probably a little too 2D, and will need to flesh his motivations out some more. I am reading a book on writing villans that someone recommended.

>“...grateful sisters.”  - LOL

 

Old man dictionary, also comes with old man humor - what can I say.

>Whoa, Illian? – going to have to stop you there, that’s straight out of Wheel of Time. I must presume you haven’t read those books.

 

I did but, aside from the last one with Brandon, probably read them 20 years ago (?) Old man memory is the third member of my old man collection. I will research each name. Like the character names these were mostly placeholder as I want to create some sort of cohesive language/naming/place words - I just was afraid I'd spend a year detailing all of that and doing nothing else.
 

>There’s a real flood of names at the start of Magda’s section, but they are all in context, so I can accept them, although it’s verging on info dump, and I don’t expect to remember many of them if they come up again.

 

Hmmm.. yeah. I'll have to make some decisions about that and PoV. I am jumping into everyone's head, and creating characters in almost every chapter. I'll have to work on that.

>What you’ve done intertwining the various opening scenes with the journey of Magda is interesting. I think it works.

 

I did that without considering it - it seemed natural but a couple of people have mentioned it which is interesting to me. I'll have to think on it a bit t see why it works, and also to leading the story in too obvious of a way.
 

>“Now she opened her stride and ran in a way that showed why she was often called Magda the Fleet, or Magda Deerfoot” – this is a bit on the nose for me, you don’t need to spell everything out for the reader, trust them to work things out, especially something obvious like this.

 

 Good point - thank you.
 

>“The three of them were the only ones from that night not living with someone in town.” I presume you mean the night when the ranger died, the only ones from the thirteen. I'm thinking they are orphans then, if they’re placed with families in town.

 

Yes. But I'm thinking I will trim the orphan list way down, or have some living with the tribe in the desert where the made the crossing. Otheriwse I'll end up naming all of them. 8o

 
>There’s a bit of a syntax meltdown in the section where she’s thinking about Paulus

 

Yeah, I wrote that but wasn't 100% sure of where that was going and will need to gut and rewrite.
 

>It strikes me now that “Mr. Gray” is an odd name when no one else in the story (so far) is named in that form. It acts like an illuminated sign over his head.

 

Another placeholder name.

I appreciate your lengthy and useful critique. A lot of good tips that will help me to refine the writing. Thank you.

[Robinski]

You're more than welcome, it was a pleasure read. I'm half way through your later submission, not got to Dinner Theatre yet, probably this evening.

 

I used to think I was the old man of the forum, but maybe not...   ; o )

[stormvisions]

Well I'm 55 but it is not only the years, it's the mileage. I'm a bit worn down. Hopefully the writing will lift me up.

[Robinski]

Ah ha! We have a winner, I'm "only" 48, that mileage thing is so true, or so my physio said yesterday...

 

Anyway, more power to your writing elbow, just don't strain it.

[stormvisions]

I won! I won! Hey, wait-a-minit ...   

[LerroyJenkins]

Well if it means anything, you don't seem run down at all. I think the two of you are some of the most energetic and witty people on the forum! Plus your critiques have an amazing depth to them that I can't even start to emulate.

[Robinski]

There is no substitute for experience... and good posture.

 

Also, I'm only f**king 48, why would I be run down? Cheeky young pup!   ;o)

 

And another thing, youth isn't a barrier to being a good writer, as there are countless examples to prove, just keep writing!

Edited January 16, 2015 by Robinski

[stormvisions]

@LerroyJenkins - you gain some things and you lose some with age. As @Robinski states youth is not a barrier, nor does age guarentee success (else all old folk would be rich and famous, and ambling about with gold walkers and chewing with jewel encrusted dentures - at least I would    I could only wish to have the wild success of a Christopher Paolini.

 

You have what is needed.