When did Venli and the scholars try out Stormform?

[Rybal]

I'll start by saying that I have no clue as to the answer for my question.

 

At the end of Interlude I-13, you have the following:

 

 

"What do you know that you aren't telling me?" Eshonai demanded, taking her sister by the shoulder.

Venli smiled more broadly. "I'm simply persuaded. We must wait. The storm will blow the wrong way, after all. Or is it all the other storms that have blown the wrong way, and this one will be the first to blow the right way?"

The wrong way? "How do you know? About the direction?"

"The songs."

The songs. But . . . they said nothing about . . .

Something deep within Eshonai nudged her to move on. "If that is true," she said, "we'll have to wait until the humans are practically on top of us to catch them in it."

"Then that is what we do," Venli said. "I will set to the teaching. Our weapon will be ready."

She spoke to the Rhythm of Craving, a rhythm like the old Rhythm of Anticipation, but more violent.

Venli walked away, joined by her once-mate and many of her scholars. They seemed comfortable in these forms. Too comfortable. They couldn't have held these forms before . . . could they?

 

Of course, I'm certain that they have held the forms before, based on this, but the question is "When?"

 

Are there any indications that Venli and/or the scholars were apart from the rest of the Listeners for any extended periods of time - at least two Highstorms would have been necessary (along with a great deal of will).

 

If they haven't held the forms before, then are they simply more susceptible to the spren and more likely to acquiesce to the Odium-Spren?

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

I'll start by saying that I have no clue as to the answer for my question.

 

At the end of Interlude I-13, you have the following:

 

 

Of course, I'm certain that they have held the forms before, based on this, but the question is "When?"

 

Are there any indications that Venli and/or the scholars were apart from the rest of the Listeners for any extended periods of time - at least two Highstorms would have been necessary (along with a great deal of will).

 

If they haven't held the forms before, then are they simply more susceptible to the spren and more likely to acquiesce to the Odium-Spren?

On their will to change back from stormform... I'm not sure that it would be necessary if they were/are already inclined to that direction on the moral compass... Odium could have told the Storm spren to let them go at the next Highstorm after first taking that form sot hat they could persuade all the others to take Stormform and summon the Everstorm. 

[king of nowhere]

I took that knowledge as something coming with stormform. you know, odium whispering in their minds, that sort of things. I doubt they already tried stormform before. Not only would have it been difficult to pull out without being noticed, but even if they had, they'd have no way of knowing the everstorm would blow eastward unless they already sumoned one - which they clearly didn't.

[harry31j97]

The songs. But . . . they said nothing about . . .

Something deep within Eshonai nudged her to move on.

Something is affecting Eshonai's mind too, persuading her not to pursue the matter further.

[dvoraen]

So here's the major question: Where did Venli get all the stormspren from in the first place, let alone the one that Eshonai eventually was possessed by?  There was plenty of time for a 'dress rehearsal' with stormform, you might say.

 

My answer: Sja'anat.

 

It's pretty clear from the epigraphs that the listeners' gods can force forms upon the race, and it's heavily implied that the Unmade are those gods.  While it's assumed (and not explicitly confirmed?) that Sja'anat is one of the Unmade, the fact remains that spren touched by this being change.*  Stormspren are described as a 'red' glow, as is the 'spy' in one of Dalinar's visions.  It's possible that corrupted spren could be altered into another type altogether, which could then mean that, say, windspren during a highstorm could end up being transformed into the stormspren needed for the stormform bonding process.

 

The other point I want to raise is how Venli cracked the secret of stormform without a helping 'divine' hand.  I think Venli either made contact with one of the Unmade or became the pawn of one, and was used to subvert the rest of the 'rebel' parts of her race so that the listeners would then fully be under the influence of their gods again, when the Desolation hit.  In other words, it both took away the chance for the rebels to aid humanity, as well as use them to be able to mass transform those in slaveform; two birds, one spren/stone.  Additionally, Venli references 'the songs' as to why the Everstorm will blow the wrong way, but Eshonai's point of view seems to make it quite clear that the songs she knew said no such thing, which means Venli got information from a different source altogether.  Again, I point to her making contact with the Unmade, and had for some time.  Honestly, I wonder if Venli's seemingly latent hatred and jealousy is what really started events there, by which I mean it caused her to inadvertently draw Odium's attention, and the dominoes fell into place from there.

 

* I'd very much like to get a WoB on whether the spren retains its Cognitive form (a flamespren is still a flamespren) when touched by Sja'anat, or if it's completely subsumed into something else (i.e. - does it become a Voidspren?  Part of the collective entities known as the Unmade?)

Edited November 20, 2014 by dvoraen

[kaellok]

So here's the major question: Where did Venli get all the stormspren from in the first place, let alone the one that Eshonai eventually was possessed by?  There was plenty of time for a 'dress rehearsal' with stormform, you might say.

 

My answer: Sja'anat.

I agree that they had experience becoming comfortable with stormform before ever giving it to Eshonai.  There's a few reasons for it!

 

First, the last couple of lines in the quote provided by Rybal is a common storytelling technique to either give foreshadowing or produce a red herring in that direction (The butler couldn't be the killer...could he?).  So, Sanderson at least wants us to think that it's a strong possibility.  But, at a subtle enough level that it's not super-blatantly obvious, which feeds either possibility.  Because this is epic fantasy that so far is told including flashbacks and prophecy, I'm inclined to think it's foreshadowing a bigger reveal later.  If it were a mystery, then I'd be more inclined to believe it a red herring.

 

Second, it makes a whole lot of narrative/story sense for Venli to have held the form before.  Even in nimbleform (while working as a scholar) she seems to tune to the 'new' Rhythms.  The more violent, destructive, hateful types.  I don't have the books here, but I vaguely recall her having an attitude/mindset shift between the meeting with the Alethi and official discovery of stormform.  The mindset shift could have been a result of discovering nimbleform and subsequent adoption of it, or something more subtle and long-term.

 

I can only imagine that the ways to search for new forms is akin to trapping a random spren (somehow), and then taking it into a highstorm and seeing what happens.  Even if that's not the preferred method, all it would take is one scholar doing this with the wrong (or right) spren and getting lucky (or unlucky).  And remember how basically all of the scholars followed Venli so readily?  

 

Sja'anat seems as likely a cause as any.  We know that two of the Unmade are active (due to the Thrill and the death rattles), and there's a strong possibility of a third (the screaming that Szeth hears there's a WoB that hints may be Unmade-related).  And sense the scholars would have to, by necessity, leave the city from time to time for their studies, it would be fairly simple (if not easy) for them to manage shifting into stormform in pairs and trios, perhaps gaining new knowledge each time.  This influence could be very long-term, too; she and her scholars discovered nimbleform, after all, which could have been Sja'anat's opening move (the ancient enemy unseen for thousands of years appears, and is simply misunderstood.  Here, have an apple.  No, it's not poisoned; honest!)

 

Alternatively, it's possible that the reason why it takes Parshendi so long to adjust to new forms is due to using trapped spren, and Venli's basic nature meant that she was able to attract one all by herself.  This would explain why she's always smiling while in stormform, which I don't recall seeing from any of the others.  (Which would then suggest that she hadn't run off and been stormform before, but has just always been a hateful, spiteful, vindictive person.)

[Oudeis]

It's pretty clear from the epigraphs that the listeners' gods can force forms upon the race, and it's heavily implied that the Unmade are those gods.  

 

...

 

Additionally, Venli references 'the songs' as to why the Everstorm will blow the wrong way, but Eshonai's point of view seems to make it quite clear that the songs she knew said no such thing, which means Venli got information from a different source altogether.

 

Addressing the second point first, because it is simpler.

 

Venli was a scholar of the songs. Of the songs we see, none are as blatant as, "You should take stormform, try it at least, summon the Everstorm, which blows west to east." Apart from one song which flat-out says that artform requires creationspren, the rest we see are all really obscure. Even if we assume that the ones in the epigraphs are the only obscure ones, and the rest are simple recipes, why then would they need scholars? The songs clearly require study, comparison, and interpretation. I happen to agree with you that Venli prolly has an additional source of information, but it's not impossible that she's discovered clues hidden in the songs that aren't obvious if you simply listen to them as Eshonai did.

 

As for the first part, I had actually believed this, too, until my most recent re-read of Words of Radiance.

 

Epigraph of chapter 25: "Though crafted of gods, it was by Unmade hand." This passage implies, at least, that the Gods and the Unmade are two separate groups.

 

Epigraph of chapter 34:

"Our gods were born splinters of a soul, of one who seeks to take control,

Destroys all lands that he beholds, with spite.

They are his spren, his gift, his price, But the nightforms speak of future life,

A challenged champion. A strife even he must requite."

 

For this to mean the gods are the Unmade, the Unmade would have to be nothing more than spren. I think this is a pretty good indicator that their definition of "god" is closer to the shinto definition (the one that's more like spren, anyway) than like a greek pantheon; they see each individual spren as a god, not just a court of Unmade gods.

 

Obviously none of this is definitive, but I think an unbiased look at the evidence would at least say that the Unmade are no more likely to be what the listeners consider to be gods than the voidspren.

[Moogle]

For this to mean the gods are the Unmade, the Unmade would have to be nothing more than spren. I think this is a pretty good indicator that their definition of "god" is closer to the shinto definition (the one that's more like spren, anyway) than like a greek pantheon; they see each individual spren as a god, not just a court of Unmade gods.

 

Taravangian refers to the Unmade as spren at one point:

“Do not spend too much effort on that,” Taravangian said, approaching another group of Veden soldiers. “I’m not sure what we would even do if we found the thing .” An ancient, evil spren was not something he had the resources to tackle. Not yet at least. “I would rather know where Moelach is moving.”

 

And Rlain has this to say:

“You spoke of the Parshendi,” Dalinar said. “This has to do with the red eyes?”

Rlain nodded. “What does it mean, soldier?” Dalinar asked.

“It means our gods have returned ,” Rlain whispered.

“Who are your gods?”

“They are the souls of those ancient. Those who gave of themselves to destroy.” A different rhythm to his words this time , slow and reverent . He looked up at Dalinar. “They hate you and your kind, sir. This new form they have given my people . . . it is something terrible. It will bring something terrible.”

 

If "those who gave of themselves to destroy" aren't the Unmade, who are they?

Edited November 20, 2014 by Moogle

[Oudeis]

I read it as, "They are the souls of those ancient. Those ancient are they who gave of themselves to destroy." i.e., the Unmade made voidspren, the voidspren are the 'gods'. Just my interpretation.

[tbone5711]

They could be more comfortable in those forms because they want to be in those forms.  Eshonai seems to have a conscience and a sense of right and wrong.  Venli seem to be a "what's in it for me and how can i use this to advance myself" type personality which may put her more in tune with Odium thus making her more in sync with the form.  

 

Or they could have transformed once before, but I don't seen Venli giving up that form of power very easily to go back to a lesser form. Unless of course it benefited her to do it.

[dvoraen]

The biggest issue is that the songs are ambiguous.  Plus, I need to clarify one point:  The listeners' songs are possibly referring to multiple groups of beings with the same words (specifically, their use of the words 'gods' and 'Unmade').  My biggest example of this is the same(?) song's stanza with similar and yet very different wording:

 

Smokeform for hiding and slipping between men.

A form of power, like human Surges.

Bring it 'round again.

Though crafted of gods,

It was by Unmade hand.

Leaves its force to be but one of foe or friend.

-- From the Listener Song of Histories, 127th stanza

 

Smokeform for hiding and slipping 'tween men.

A form of power -- like Surges of spren.

Do we dare to wear this form again? It spies.

Crafted of gods, this form we fear.

By Unmade touch its curse to bear,

Formed from shadow -- and death is near. It lies.

-- From the Listener Song of Secrets, 51st stanza

 

I think the Unmade referenced in the listeners' songs reference two specific groups of beings, which are collectively referred to as the Unmade.  The first group is the Unmade of significance (those so named in the book, such as Yelig-nar), who I strongly suspect are their 'gods' (more on this in a sec); the second group are the 'spren' that are mentioned via the Diagram and also folklore (ref. Shallan's flashback involving the talking parrot), examples being the spies Sja'anat creates out of regular spren, and those that have the ability to create/animate thunderclasts.

 

The other factor that confirms to me that the (named) Unmade are the listeners gods, has to do with Eshonai's interlude when she's talking with her mother, and after when she assumed stormform:

"But the alternative? Dabbling in things we shouldn't, things that might bring the eyes of the Unmade upon us."  (p201 hardback)

 

...There was no fighting against what she had become. The eyes of the gods were too strongly upon her. (p717 hardback)

There is also one other question: who/what were the two beings in the Highstorm that Kaladin saw?  We haven't seen any of the Unmade in 'person' yet, to my knowledge, but it seemed interesting and strange that two entities were on the Shattered Plains and presumably were heading westbound

 

Words of Radiance introduces the idea behind 'drawing the eyes of the Unmade' upon a person/place/thing, which "common knowledge" would suggest induces a curse on a region, though I suspect it's more due to the Unmade's powers as a collective whole and what they can do to people.  We've seen hints of this, after all, notably via the Thrill's effects, and Dalinar's visions more so.  Exactly what occurs, well, I'm pretty sure we'll find out soon enough.

 

At any rate, I do think that there is evidence for the (named) Unmade qualifying as the listeners' gods, though most of it is from the admittedly faulty and likely altered songs that they have regarding their gods.

[hoser]

I agree that the Unmade are the listeners' Gods.  I would like to suggest an alternative interpretation as to the nature of the Unmade. 

 

The ...

 

I think the Unmade referenced in the listeners' songs reference two specific groups of beings, which are collectively referred to as the Unmade.  The first group is the Unmade of significance (those so named in the book, such as Yelig-nar), who I strongly suspect are their 'gods' (more on this in a sec); the second group are the 'spren' that are mentioned via the Diagram and also folklore (ref. Shallan's flashback involving the talking parrot), examples being the spies Sja'anat creates out of regular spren, and those that have the ability to create/animate thunderclasts.

...

I think the Unmade started out as living beings that gave up their bodies and gained investiture to become more or less pure investiture.  As such they are essentially spren, even though they have a different history than the other spren that we see.  After all, what is a spren?  I think it is coherent investiture, some of which can think for itself.  So where you see two groups referenced as the Unmade, I think they are one and the same. 

[Oudeis]

Spren were first raw power, given shape by people's thoughts in the cognitive realm. Firespren represent what people think of, when they think of fire.

[Dawnshard]

the Unmade are the opposites of the Heralds. they are the gods of the listeners kind of how the stormfather is divine to the humans, but the almighty is above him like Odium is above the Unmade. 

[Oudeis]

Interesting, do you have proof to support your claims?

 

Also, the Unmade cannot be direct opposites of the Heralds (also your post lacks consistently, since you say they are like both the Heralds and the Stormfather; do you think the Stormfather is a Herald? We know he's not.) because there are not ten of them. (I'm trying to find the quote... people keep referencing it, but no one is linking it, and my google-fu is weak this morning...)

[Twenty@20]

I tend to visualise the Unmade as similar to the Ringwraiths/Nazgûl of LoTR in their relation to Odium and Sauron respectively. Just a hunch, no solid reason. Just like the Ringwraiths were chief lieutenants of Sauron, had special powers and were corrupted men, the Unmade seem to have special powers and are most likely Odium's chief lieutenants. I don't know what the Unmade actually are, but I wouldn't be surprised if they turn out to be similar to the Ringwraiths.

[WeiryWriter]

Interesting, do you have proof to support your claims?

 

Also, the Unmade cannot be direct opposites of the Heralds (also your post lacks consistently, since you say they are like both the Heralds and the Stormfather; do you think the Stormfather is a Herald? We know he's not.) because there are not ten of them. (I'm trying to find the quote... people keep referencing it, but no one is linking it, and my google-fu is weak this morning...)

 

Ta-da:

 

Q: Is the number of the Unmade fixed?

A: Yes.

Q: Is it ten, is it ten, is it ten, is it ten, is it ten?

A: Is it ten? No, it's not ten.

 

(source)

Edited November 22, 2014 by WeiryWriter
better link

[Oudeis]

Source bookmarked. Thank you!

 

EDIT: While I'm here, can anyone remind me the most recent thread where we're talking about Adolin's mom? I just found a scrap of information so wildly out there it fascinates me.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Outis

[WeiryWriter]

Source bookmarked. Thank you!

 

EDIT: While I'm here, can anyone remind me the most recent thread where we're talking about Adolin's mom? I just found a scrap of information so wildly out there it fascinates me.

 

Just an FYI but I just added that interview to the database, so here is a more direct link.

[AerionBFII]

Venli gave me goosebumps from the get go. She was definitely up to something my Cosmere sense was tingling 

[Bort]

I wonder if Venli is a Worldhopper. It could explain why she has access to better information than Eshonai, with regards to Spren and forms.

[AerionBFII]

I don't think she is a Worldhopper but I think she has been dabbling with some unwholesome elements.

She seems to be very well informed about the forms and their abilities, now that Eshonai is MIA I think she will be I control of the Listeners.