Thunder dome! Dalinar, Kelsier, Szeth, and Wax.

[dyring]

I made a gargantuan reply to this, but an internal server error ate it and I forgot to copy before posting

So making a shorter version now, and only taking one of the points I did before, as I think its the point thats causeing the disagreement.

(theorycrafting isnt me best area, so good chance at error, expecting them to be found quickly;)

Mobility.

Firstly, Lashings and steel/iron seem functions utterly differently.

1 lashing equals gravity. yet it does not simply add it, it seems to replace it. Otherwise 1 lashing would mean your equally pulled to the ground and the direction your lashed to, wich would make walking on walls pretty hard, and make you simply stay at the spot weightless if you lash yourself upwards.

And if it was much stronger then gravity, it would make running on a wall while lashed to it difficult for other reason, as you´d wiegh several times your weight.

Steel/iron on the other hand, does not replace gravity(there are many places in the books, notably Kelsiers assault on the Venture keep early in Mistborn where this is described).

Therefore, it must be stronger then gravity or 1 lashing, as otherwise dropping a coin at your feet and pushing you would not move, it would simply counteract gravity.

This ofcourse, means that 1 lashing would move slower then someone pushing on a coin.

Thats actually not my main point thou.

When it comes to flying, taking a metaphor I see the windrunner as a dragster, while the mistborn is a regular racecar.

The windrunner can propably gain higher speeds by getting a whole lot of lashings. But this takes time. Not long mind you, but in the area of instant abilities, its long enough. The mistborn will push or pull himself to the side or up, and the windrunner will need to change direction. Dismiss all the 10 lashings moving forward, then applying new lashings in the mistborns direction, adding enough to gain speed again(all the while using reverse lashings to dodge any metal the mistborn is shooting at you, and fighting of despare and defeatism from sooting/rioting)... all this taking enough time for the mistborn to move out of his path again, and then some. The mistborn also ofcourse, uses tin to notice any changes in momentum at his opponent, far quicker then the windrunner will be able to.

In a straight line, the windrunner will be quicker, but the mistborn will have much better cornering, and as such he won´t have any problems staying out of the way.

(and thats without going into how much stormlight it would cost to try to catch someone like that)

So in the end, big reason we disagree is that I believe mistborn are more mobile in the air, you believe windrunners are. I think we can agree that the one who is the most mobile in the air, is likely to win.

(and quickly on a second point, holding a wodden stick to the side and lashing all coins to it won´t work more then once. After that it got metal stuck to it, and can be pulled or pushed on, so while flying that trick only works on the first coin, after that it needs to be dropped, or the mistborn, even if he cannot pull it from the windrunners hand, its the perfect item for the mistborn to use to push on to keep distance)

[Windrunner]

Firstly, Lashings and steel/iron seem functions utterly differently.

1 lashing equals gravity. yet it does not simply add it, it seems to replace it. Otherwise 1 lashing would mean your equally pulled to the ground and the direction your lashed to, wich would make walking on walls pretty hard, and make you simply stay at the spot weightless if you lash yourself upwards.

And if it was much stronger then gravity, it would make running on a wall while lashed to it difficult for other reason, as you´d wiegh several times your weight.

Yeah I agree with you about how the Lashings and steel and iron are different. The way the Lashings work is implied to be slightly different then you seem to believe in the TWoK Ars Arcanum. (Although it doesn't matter much to your who would win thoughts, I just thought I'd mention it) Lashings don't seem to create any new forces, like a new one pulling you up replacing the one that pulls you down. What the Surgebinders are doing is actually manipulating the spiritual gravitational bond between human/object and planet. They basically twist the gravity of an object, making it pull a different direction then down. When they double lash they increase the power of that pull making gravity pull on and object harder. A reverse Lashing just increases the gravitational pull of an object temporarily. That's why the half and quarter Lashings work the way they do. Half of the weight still pulls down causing the weightlessness.

Anyway, if Szeth can get off a powerful enough reverse lashing it could be deadly for Kelsier. Especially if he's in the air at the time. It would require a massive amount of Stormlight but if the pull of the Lashed object is stronger then Kel's abilities to Push or Pull, then he could get Kelsier to fly right onto his Blade.

[Prince]

Waxillium Is the First To Die. His Limited Abilities Made Him An Easy Target For Kelsier, Who's Own Capabilities Out Match Wax's Any Day. Szeth Is Taken Out By Kelsier Also, Blinded By Emotional Allomancy then Shot With A Couple Coins. Dalinar Ultimate defeats Kels. His Armour Blocking The Allomancy From Directly Effecting Him, or Withstanding Any Indirect Attacks. Kels Eventually Gives Up and Is Slaughtered by The Blackthorn

Edited June 3, 2012 by Prince

[Eri]

Kelsier and Szeth, being the agressive guys, kill each other; Wax and Dalinar decide to work together and fight crime.

[IvoryRoad]

I'm going to do a write-up of this battle as I see it. No one will know of the others' capabilities at the beginning, but they all know that the others are extremely dangerous, so they play it cautiously at first, trying to get a feel for things. The arena is a little town in the Roughs. Not much metal, but a bit, and some decent maneuvering possibilities and vertical movement, and some cover for the more CQC oriented people coughDalinar.

I'll post it up, too, if you like. Obviously I already know who will win, but this could potentially swing many directions based on luck or certain decisions being made without context.

[dj26792]

I think in general combat it could go anyway but in answer to szeths close combat superiority over kelsier, atium pewter duralumin. the speed and power to insta kill faster than szeth can react and the foreknowledge of where szeth will be. It would be dangerous but kelsier has shown that he will do anything to win. That said in that moment of vulnerability afterwards if wax is still alive kelsier gets shot in the head and wax goes on to win due to superior range and mobility over dalinar. that said it really could go anyway depending on which incredibly lucky character was luckier on the day.

[king of nowhere]

assuming all are aware of each other's skills, at least broadly. otherwise wax wins against szeth and kell simply because they don't recognize a gun until after they've been shot, and then it's too late (an unexpected bullet is too fast to dodge or push even with stormlight or pewter).

let's start with dalinar

dalinar - szeth, that's a close one. we saw szeth - gavilar, and szeth was the best but gavilar stood his ground and got a good chance near the end. dalinar is said to be better than gavilar, that would make him pretty much balanced with szeth. I'd call it a coin flip.

dalinar loses easily to the other 2, since they can just stay out of range, dalinar has no way of reaching an oppponent who can "fly" by steelpushing. true, kelsier would have a long time hitting him with metal stuff before he can break plate, but he's got time. a vial of steel and iron lasts for hours. bullets instead would be bale to crack a plate quickly.

kelsier - szeth, i would bet on kelsier but it's open. the main advantages of kell are that he can stay out of range, and stormlight run out much faster than metals. all he has to do is pelting szeth with coins until he run out of stormlight. however, szeth is far from helpless, since he can leash objects to try to hit kelsier - he would use non metallic stuff, so kell would have to resort only to dodging. with some shrapnel blasting maybe he'll get a lucky shot before kell can finish him. he can also try to prepare sticky traps on surfaces and lash himself to jump around, so kelsier could easily lose to a single mistake. I'm also assuming stormlight > pewter for phisical enhancement here, as seems likely.

kelsier - wax depends on the specific equipment of wax. if wax has aluminium bullets, kelsier is a dead man as soon as he is on sight. or if has steel pistols, he will never get to use them and kell will kill him fast, or at least force him to flee. or that hazekiller rounds for coinshots, they were quite effective. against those, kelsier would also die quickly. the only way to make a lasting fight would be to have was equipped with aluminium pistols and regular bullets. kell would be able to repel them if prepared. however, it would still be possible for wax to get a lucky shot, while the chance of kelsier hitting wax with a coin is negligible. bullets are much faster. so if wax can keep his distance, he will eventually kill kelsier with a lucky shot. if kelsier can close upp, he will kill wax easily thanks to pewter. it would basically boil out to who would outrun the other. both have steel, both have an edge on the other. kelsier with iron and pewter reflexes, or wax with wheight changeing? both are possible

wax - szeth, i think szeth is dead. I really don't think his item-attracting skill would work on a bullet. wax would just headshot him. even lacking that, he'd still be able to keep his distance. however, if szeth could deflect bullets, wax would be able to survive much less than kelsier. he don't have pewter reflexes and endurance, and without iron he has less manueverability against thrown objects. still, bullets are more difficult to evade than coins.

Those are all the pairings.

If they were to fight in an arena, however, i think everyone would go into hiding. here it really comes down on who would surprise who. I think kelsier would have a big edge thanks to tin - eventualy with duraluminium. wax would find a sniping place and do what in fps videogames is called "campering". he'd knew to keep his metal off for kelsier. szeth wouldd lurk around. dalinar would not be good at hiding, however no one can kill him quickly and attacking him would reveal their position to the others. so it would be a very intersting situation that could go all way.

EDIT: I'm assuming kelsier has no atium of course. if kelsier has atium, he win easily against anyone. atium would probably be enough to compensate to szeth superior physical skills and stab him, or to dodge wax bullets and close range with him quickly - or even stab him with a thrown glass dagger. or to kill dalinar in melee kaladin's style.

Edited July 16, 2012 by king of nowhere

[dj26792]

Having thought about it more since yesterday, I honestly think full haze killer Wax, assuming all know the general powers and equipment of everyone else would win. Simply because none of the others would be able to fully comprehend the powers of a gun, until they came up against it. Arena style, I think that Kelsier and Szeth would both go on the front foot early, and try to pounce on Dalinar or Wax, expecting the other to do the same and hoping to thin the field early. That gives us 4 scenarios, they both go for Wax/Dalinar or they split and Kelsier attacks Wax/Dalinar and Szeth the other. I can't see any of these scenarios ending in anyway other than someone who attacks Wax thinking 'WOW, thats what they meant when they said bullets are fast' as they die from multiple gunshot wounds. If its only one attacking Wax he now gets a free shot at whoever is about to win out of the other two and probably wins against his final weakened opponent.

If both attacked the other is having similar thoughts while trying to work out how to counter this and gets caught between Dalinar, who would be quick to capitalise on that situation and Wax and dies, and I suspect so does Wax as Dalinar is in close enough to land a blow as well, if he manages to get away however he would win against Dalinar for all the reasons mentioned by so many others before me. The other situation where none attack him lets him gun down Kalladin first as his range is a threat, I suspect Hazekiller rounds would get him even with atium if Wax is smart about it, then Szeth goes down to bullets or distraction and Dalinar who is beginning to realise he needs to fear bullets tries to close and fails as Wax escapes to the air and rains down bullets.

And on the note of Atium, this is the only scenario I can think of in which Kelsier dies, Wax knows its coming and plans for it, even then while it looks nice up there, I put getting Kelsier face to face at 50-50. If he gets a chance at Kelsier from behind 60-40, the rest of it though, I put Wax at a 70-30 by no means certain, but probable.

[Arcanist Lupus]

I think the order is:

Kelsier runs out of Atium

Szeth runs out of stormlight

Kelsier runs out of normal metals.

The question is whether there are other sources of stormlight around? Kelsier will certainly be carrying extra stores of metal, so it only seems fair to give Szeth a few gems.

With the advantages of coinshooting nullified by reverse lashings, I think that the tide turns in Szeth's favor, but Atium is a powerful tool, so it's still balanced.

[IvoryRoad]

Anyone interested in seeing my write-up? I tried to be fair, but inevitably someone's favorite character will not act in a way that they may wish they had. Such is the nature of a fanfiction...

[Splintered]

This is my first post on the forums!

While I agree with most of what I've seen on here, I have some problems that I'd like to point out.

1) Why Kelsier? Why not Vin or Elend? Vin was arguably more powerful than Kelsier and she was definitely more talented with her abilities than he was. Kelsier struggled when fighting half a dozen haze killers while Vin killed dozens if not hundreds of them when she attacked Cett's Keep in Luthadel. Elend was definitely more powerful than Kelsier and would probably fare better in this type of scenario. Either way I don't feel that it matters and I'll explain why in my summary.

2) Why Dalinar? Adolin was the most talented warrior with shard plate and blade. If we're going to give Mistborn, Shard Bearers and AOL characters a chance to win, why not choose the most talented and powerful members from these stories? I don't really have a problem with Wax being there; you could argue he wasn't the most powerful/likely character to win from the book but that arguement is subjective and not worth going too in depth over.

3) Szeth fought Gavilar in an environment that heavily favored him and yet he nearly lost. Dalinar would defintely win in a one on one scenario with Szeth.

4) Kelsier and duralumin are mentioned a lot in this thread, but he never used it and would be more likely to make a mistake using it than use it effectively in a fight. He could use all of his steel or pewter on accident and at that point he is effectively dead.

5) This has been touched on but I want to emphasize it. Atium is an extermely fast burning metal. Kel or whichever mitborn using it will run out after a couple of minutes. I justify this from WOA. The very large bead of it that Zane gave to Vin was "supposed to burn for about 3 minutes".

6) Wax only has surprise on his side to survive here. Once he shoots his gun the others should realize his strength and be able to counter it.

All in all I feel that with the characters used, Dalinar would most likely win. Anything could happen so it's not definite. I think coins and bullets will affect his plate, but it will take a lot to break his plate. Long before that happens Dalinar will learn their strengths and destroy them. Put Vin or Elend in there and that would defintely change things up.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Splintered

[IvoryRoad]

1) Why Kelsier? Why not Vin or Elend? Vin was arguably more powerful than Kelsier and she was definitely more talented with her abilities than he was. Kelsier struggled when fighting half a dozen haze killers while Vin killed dozens if not hundreds of them when she attacked Cett's Keep in Luthadel. Elend was definitely more powerful than Kelsier and would probably fare better in this type of scenario.

The first statement is debatable. Vin was more skilled in combat overall, though this was a side effect of her close link to Preservation, but even Vin maintained that Kelsier had manipulated Steel and Iron better than any allomancer she had ever seen. Elend, I think, would actually go down quite easily. Brute strength is not enough to win, and I never got the impression that he was anything more than a marginally skilled allomancer.

Why Dalinar? Adolin was the most talented warrior with shard plate and blade. If we're going to give Mistborn, Shard Bearers and AOL characters a chance to win, why not choose the most talented and powerful members from these stories? I don't really have a problem with Wax being there; you could argue he wasn't the most powerful/likely character to win from the book but that arguement is subjective and not worth going too in depth over.

Actually, Dalinar acknowledged that Adolin was the best with the Blade and that no one could match him in a duel, but Adolin also said at some point that Dalinar was at home in the Plate in ways that no one else was. It's pretty even-handed, although Adolin is younger, I'll concede that.

Szeth fought Gavilar in an environment that heavily favored him and yet he nearly lost. Dalinar would defintely win in a one on one scenario with Szeth.

This isn't a one on one scenario. This is a four-man brawl.

Kelsier and duralumin are mentioned a lot in this thread, but he never used it and would be more likely to make a mistake using it than use it effectively in a fight. He could use all of his steel or pewter on accident and at that point he is effectively dead.

I don't think Kelsier should even be allowed to use any metals he didn't know existed before the end of FE.

This has been touched on but I want to emphasize it. Atium is an extermely fast burning metal. Kel or whichever mitborn using it will run out after a couple of minutes. I justify this from WOA. The very large bead of it that Zane gave to Vin was "supposed to burn for about 3 minutes".

You don't exactly need a lot of time to slaughter large amounts of people with a few minutes of atium. No matter how skilled they are. An atium burner is quite nearly invincible to even one who is familiar with its effects, let alone Wax, Szeth, or Dalinar, who have never heard of such a metal.

Wax only has surprise on his side to survive here. Once he shoots his gun the others should realize his strength and be able to counter it.

It's not just about the gun. The havoc he can wreak with his steelpush + weight is awe-inspiring (see climax of AoL). That, I think, is the sole factor that elevates Wax to the level of the others.

All in all I feel that with the characters used, Dalinar would most likely win. Anything could happen so it's not definite. I think coins and bullets will affect his plate, but it will take a lot to break his plate. Long before that happens Dalinar will learn their strengths and destroy them. Put Vin or Elend in there and that would defintely change things up.

I'm not certain how much force is required to break a plate. In TWoK, Dalinar gets hammered repeatedly by footmen with weapons, smacking him over and over and over until pieces crack. Obviously, a lot of force, but then again it's extremely difficult to hit the exact same spot on the armor over and over again, particularly in a combat situation where you're panicked about your imminent death at any possible moment at a flick of the shardblade.

The point is, the net force is dispersed across the armor. Bullets have a much more concentrated force at the point of impact, something I think is precisely the tool to use for breaking Shardplate quickly(apart from your own Blade, of course).

In the writeup I did, standard bullets gave Dalinar pause, but they weren't dramatically damaging. But once Wax loads a Pewterarm Hazekiller round and slams a megapush into it, Dalinar gets quite a wallop.

Another key factor to remember is Dalinar's limited mobility compared to the other three. Apart from enhanced jumping, Dalinar is tied to the ground, while all three of the others may fly this way and that, Wax and Kelsier needing metal anchors, Szeth needing literally nothing but stormlight. When Szeth fought Gavilar, it was in close quarters. He didn't have nearly enough room to maneuver so as to keep out of Gavilar's reach. In an open arena, Shardbearers are extremely disadvantaged. I tried to balance this in the writeup by including buildings for cover, but there is no such thing as a perfectly fair scenario for everyone.

Welcome to the forums! Sorry if I seem harsh, but these are just opinions.

Edited July 26, 2012 by IvoryRoad

[Lady_Yasha]

You HAD to do it didn't you? Go and make me think; I hate thinking ¬_¬

OK, so the way I reason it is either Dalinar or Wax would fall first. Dalinar would have to rely on cumbersome and tiring tactics to wear his opponent down, considering he's fighting extremely agile opponents. Wax, as far as I can remember, was never that great at hand-to-hand combat and could be overpowered by any of the other three.

Wax would have to think strategically more than Kelsier since he can only Lurch, while Kelsier can pretty much augment himself in every way, providing temporal metals are also available to Kelsier in this match.

Szeth is the likely candidate: he's an all-round combat expert and the "perfect" assassin. Not to say that's a deciding factor, it's certainly a strong reason to believe so.

If the outcome is based solely on strategic employment and factor in a little luck, then Dalinar could come out on top. His Shardblade is a powerful weapon. But we can't forget Szeth has a Shardblade... and Surgebinding. So in a clean fight, I'd have to say Szeth.

[dj26792]

Ivoryroad, where is this write-up I'd like to read it. Also Kelsier doesnt need the newer metals, in terms of raw combat power the only one thats adds anything to the mistborn is duraluminium and thats not much of an advantage against these fighters. Kelsiers experience wins out of Elends knowledge of the new metals and greater power for sure, Vin would be an interesting comparison I think she would do well in general better, but coming up against Wayne in this mix, Kelsiers greater skill at pushing and pulling on metals again wins out.

[IvoryRoad]

Ivoryroad, where is this write-up I'd like to read it. Also Kelsier doesnt need the newer metals, in terms of raw combat power the only one thats adds anything to the mistborn is duraluminium and thats not much of an advantage against these fighters. Kelsiers experience wins out of Elends knowledge of the new metals and greater power for sure, Vin would be an interesting comparison I think she would do well in general better, but coming up against Wayne in this mix, Kelsiers greater skill at pushing and pulling on metals again wins out.

It's on my USB drive! But I'm on a new laptop and I don't have Office yet so I can't access the file. I should get Office within the week and then i'll slap it up here for y'alls enjoyment.

[Wispsy]

U underestimate atium, you see the future, and ur mind is sped up to comprehend and react, would require seconds worth to take out szeth or wax, wax at a distance, shoot a coin where he is going to be and dodge the bullet and from all descriptions we have had of it, it szeth stepped into melee with kelsier when he is burning atium(which szeth cannot detect (and it's possible that kelsier could detect stormlight anyway? So no sneaking up?)) then szeth should be facing instant death without touching kelsier at all.. Only way he would lose is if he were toying with them letting them have loads of silly opportunities. Giving him atium would make it pointless (altho saying that I'm not usually much of a fan of these things anyway!)

Dalinar loses, cannot catch anyone ever and has no range at all,