Thunder dome! Dalinar, Kelsier, Szeth, and Wax.

[Vikter]

**Slight Spoiler aheaThis post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rules

Thunder Dome challange, place your bets. Who is the last man standing? No alliances, no mercy.

Enter the contestants:

Dalinar "The Blackthorn" Kholin- Full Shardplate and Blade, master of fighting Blade fighting and the most feared Warlord in all of Alethi.

Szeth "Assassin in White" son-son-Vallano Master Windrunner, Mass Murderer, and holder of a deadly Shardblade, with the ability to change gravity at a whim he has the best mobility in the game.

Kelsier "The Survivor of Hathsin" Deadly Allomancer, with pin point control over all types of metal, a tactical mastermind who orchestrated the downfall of a 1000 year rule of the Tyrannical Lord Ruler.

Waxillium "Wax" Ladrian High Lord of House Ladrian, powerful Twinborn with the ability to manipulate his own wieght at will and to Steelpush on all metal he is a deadly man. When combined with his sharpshooting aluminum pistols and haze killer rounds he is someone to be feared and respected.

Four Men Enter, One Man Leaves!

[Inkthinker]

Can Shard metal be pulled upon through allomancy? It's not a topic Brandon's ever ruled upon (I think), but it would majorly change up the tatics used in the fight. If it were me, I'd make it either inert (like aluminum) or at best "slippery". Otherwise an Allomancer is just going to play with a Shard-bearer like a kitten with a ball of string until he gets bored.

Would you pit Scadrial vs. Roshar first and then face off the winners, or pit the players against their counterparts and then against each other? 'Cause Kelsier would very likely destroy Wax in a one-one fight. And Dalinar was arguably a better warrior than Gavilar, who gave Szeth a serious run for the money, so it's not looking good for Szeth if Dalinar has Plate and both have blades.

Or is it all four in a pit brawl? Anything can happen in such chaotic conditions.

[Vikter]

I was thinking all out pit brawl style, with naitive environment, small buildings, cover concealment in large (2-3 city block radius) area. I didn't think Wax would stand much of a chance against Kel, but with firearms and steel pushing I think he could shatter Dalinar easily. Szeth Kel would be one hell of a crazy fight scene. I didnt want Kaladin As the fourth for a few reasons ( not a full potential yet, three from Roshar etc). I almost put Vashar in but I thought he might be a bit too powerful.

[Windrunner]

Nope you can't push or pull on Plate or Blade.

SWIFTXJUSTICE (MON JAN 16)

Quick question to help me settle a debate. Could allomancy affect a shard plate/blade?

BRANDON SANDERSON (MON JAN 16)

No. Investiture interferes with most magics.

Source

[Vikter]

Good to know Windrunner, that would make the playing field more even between all of the contestants.

[Aethling]

Kelsier beats Dalinar. Shardplate may not be affected by pushing/pulling, but a coin going through the air will definately affect the plate. Hit the plate several times with coins or pieces of metal and it will break down. Since Dalinar is close combat, it wouldn't even be a contest.

Kelsier beats Wax. Atium and Duralumin decide the battle in a few seconds.

Wax beats Dalinar. See above for Kelsier. Plus Wax has guns.

Szeth beats Kelsier. Szeth lashes Kelsier to a floor and just takes his time to stab him.

Szeth beats Wax. See previous.

Dalinar beats Szeth. We have seen that Szeth has more difficult times with skilled Shardwarriors. None is more skilled than Dalinar. This one would be the closest of any of the battles, but I feel that Dalinar being the most skilled warrior on the shardworld would win.

The Champion would really depend on the seeding. Unless Dalinar faces Szeth in round one, Szeth takes the title.

[hoser]

Szeth beats Kelsier. Szeth lashes Kelsier to a floor and just takes his time to stab him.

Given Atium, why would Kelsier let him do that? A mistborn burning anything is also likely invested. With Szeth's fragile mental state, one has to wonder about the effects of rioting or soothing also. Given the superior ranged weapons of the mistborn, he'd be foolish to close with Szeth. He can also just wait for Szeth to run out of stormlight.

It seems at least even, if not tilting to Kelsier.

Atium is a powerful trump, and, given the Heralds' prohibition on predicting the future (the essence of Voidbringing), likely none of the Radiant powers allow future sight. I suspect even Jasnah's soulcasting at a distance could not overcome the investiture of a mistborn.

[Aethling]

Vin proved that Atium can be beaten. Szeth does not have to close into range to lash something. He set a trap in one scene where the soldiers became stuck to the floor. Kelsier can't push or pull stone or wood. Kelsier does not have a weapon that can cut through solid stone. The rioting/soothing is a good point, but I do not believe it would be enough to overcome.

[hoser]

Kelsier can't push or pull stone or wood.

He can drop a coin and push it, just push one where Szeth will be or several where he might be. After the coins have killed Szeth, he could wait for the lashing to dissipate if he didn't feel like pushing at a coin sitting wherever gravity was pulling him. Vin was experienced in fighting with and against atium, whereas Szeth would have no understanding of it. Stormlight healing is slow, as we saw with Gavilar, so Kel can do damage much faster than Szeth heals.

[Windrunner]

That actually depends on how much Stormlight you're holding. Szeth has a broken jaw, and maybe some ribs when he fights Gavilar. If I 'm remembering right more Stormlight fixes that right up, faster then pewter.

EDIT:

Whoops my bad, the quote is actually, "Stormlight healing was far from instantaneous." It goes on to say it would take hours to recover from the broken jaw, which while still faster then pewter, I think, isn't much use in anything but a prolonged fight.

[RenegadeShroom]

It would be good to remember that Kelsier wouldn't be helpless if he got Lashed to the ground, he still has steel/iron, which he could use to lodge some coins in Szeth's face. And combined with atium, that's a guaranteed hit, I reckon. And depending on whether or not he has access to duralumin, he could also do duralumin Rioting/Soothing, rendering Szeth completely useless for a couple moments.

So, yeah. My money's on Kelsier in a one-on-one fight with Szeth or Dalinar, and maybe Wax, but in an all-out pit brawl, anything could happen. Like Dalinar screwing over someone while they're distracted fighting the other two, or something.

[Vikter]

Shooting coins may not be so effective, even with atium, when one can just pull them all into a near by wall or pillar. Or when one can instantaneously make himself fall "up" into the sky. In addition to that Stormlight enhanced speed seems to be far more efficient than pewter although pewter will be able to outlast Stormlight. With Szeth not having any Non-Invested metals on his person Kel may not be able to beat him so easy.

[dyring]

I´d bet on Kelsier against all three, in a fight where they where aware of the other´s powers.

If he came out against wax for example, not knowing, thinking it a normal coinshot, he may well be killed simply from catching a coin between them and both pushgin, with wax makes himself a 1000 more heavier and crushes Kel by throwing him into a wall.

Against Dalinar, well, shardblade is an instant kill if Kel tried to block it with another weapon not knowing what it is, but ofcourse, he´d beat him easily by staying at range and shooting metal at him until the shardplate breaks.

Against Szeth, same deal. Keep a distance, with his strength being in steel/iron, he´ll be able to stay out of reach and avoid items szeth lashes into his path until Szeth runs out of stormlight, and once that happends szeth is dead. Hé´ll beat him by using metal the same way as he did the inquisitor.

On the other hand, if Kelsier was unaware of Szeth´s powers, he´d prolly die in melee, not expecting him to be as fast and skilled fighting as stormlight makes him.

[dyring]

Shooting coins may not be so effective, even with atium, when one can just pull them all into a near by wall or pillar. Or when one can instantaneously make himself fall "up" into the sky. In addition to that Stormlight enhanced speed seems to be far more efficient than pewter although pewter will be able to outlast Stormlight. With Szeth not having any Non-Invested metals on his person Kel may not be able to beat him so easy.

Szeth would haveto touch them to invest them with stormlight and fall away thou. that kinda makes that thing useless when its shot at you.

Falling away himself sure, but enough coins, and not only shooting but pulling from behind with iron to attack aswell, and its not very easy.

[CrazyRioter]

Szeth doesn't need to touch the coins, he can use a Reverse Lashing to pull them towards a wall or something like that.

but Kelsier would win if he had atium, it's very unlikely Szeth would manage to figure out the trick to beating atium quickly enough.

Atium is usually an "I win" button unless the opponent has it too.

[dyring]

Szeth doesn't need to touch the coins, he can use a Reverse Lashing to pull them towards a wall or something like that.

but Kelsier would win if he had atium, it's very unlikely Szeth would manage to figure out the trick to beating atium quickly enough.

Atium is usually an "I win" button unless the opponent has it too.

He´d haveto touch the wall then thou to infuse that wouldent he? He could ofcourse hold a shield, like a lurcher would(or Kaladin did with the arrows), but thats still abit risky. He couldent use a metal one or Kelsier would just push him about, and a wodden one would break from enough coins/nails I guess. Or some coins/nails would get stuck and the shield would be pulled away.

Eitehr way, doing either would drain stormlight very quickly, and I just don´t see a way for Szeth to be able to close the distance quickly enough, atleast not out in the open. Inside I would agree that Szeth hade the advantage.

Edited May 30, 2012 by dyring

[Inkthinker]

You guys really reckon that bullets and coins will smash through Plate that easily? Maybe bullets, but coins... I dunno, seems like they're a bit soft for punching through Plate, given that they can often be blocked with wooden shields.

Though Kelsier's "storm of metal" attack would probably put a dent in Plate pretty quickly, I wonder if it's all enough to stop Dalinar from getting in close with his Blade.

Do we assume each player has full knowledge and understanding of the others' abilities? That affects battle strategy immensely.

[Brendan]

Just have to note, arguing that Szeth would run out of stormlight is fairly nonsensical, as you could also argue that Kel would run out of metals to burn. I think you would have to come at this that they each have brought sufficient quantity of whatever they draw their power from to not run out, else you'll get caugt in a loop:

"No Szeth ran out of stormlight first!"

"No Kel ran out of metals first!"

[dyring]

Just have to note, arguing that Szeth would run out of stormlight is fairly nonsensical, as you could also argue that Kel would run out of metals to burn. I think you would have to come at this that they each have brought sufficient quantity of whatever they draw their power from to not run out, else you'll get caugt in a loop:

"No Szeth ran out of stormlight first!"

"No Kel ran out of metals first!"

Thats part of the strength of the abilities thou.

Take awakening. It would not run out, the breaths you have, you have, you could retake what you awaken. It never runs out.

Stormlight on the other hand, you can´t store very much, gems take quite alot of space. It will run out fairly quickly in comparison. You just cannot bring a supply wich wont run out eventually. Or rather quickly if you use it alot.

Allomancy is in the middle. It will run out, but not as fast as stormlight. an wqual amount of metal(most metals atleast) will last much longer then stormlight in an equally large gem.

So you could say that, but it would remove a strength in the "longer lasting" magics, and then then I´d put it even or even advantange szeth if he is able to use his surgebinding to actually fly (I know its almost certain it can be used to do it, they flied in dalinars visons, but very uncertain if Szeth would think of/know how to do it)

[hoser]

Just have to note, arguing that Szeth would run out of stormlight is fairly nonsensical, as you could also argue that Kel would run out of metals to burn. I think you would have to come at this that they each have brought sufficient quantity of whatever they draw their power from to not run out, else you'll get caugt in a loop:

"No Szeth ran out of stormlight first!"

"No Kel ran out of metals first!"

In addition to the point dyring made, there are three reasons Szeth's stormlight would run out first.

1. Szeth leaks it quickly (a few minutes, vs Kaladin who leaks it at least an order of magnitude more slowly)
   
2. Once you infuse, it goes away whether you use it or not, whereas a mistborn can burn it only when needed
   
3. Your opponent can see whether you are using it - a mistborn can approach, see if you start glowing, stay away until you stop, lather, rinse, repeat.
   

I do think that Szeth knows that he can fly, but I doubt that he can catch a mistborn.

[Brendan]

In addition to the point dyring made, there are three reasons Szeth's stormlight would run out first.

1. Szeth leaks it quickly (a few minutes, vs Kaladin who leaks it at least an order of magnitude more slowly)
   
2. Once you infuse, it goes away whether you use it or not, whereas a mistborn can burn it only when needed
   
3. Your opponent can see whether you are using it - a mistborn can approach, see if you start glowing, stay away until you stop, lather, rinse, repeat.
   

I do think that Szeth knows that he can fly, but I doubt that he can catch a mistborn.

I won’t argue your first point however I believe it becomes a small issue in conjunction to my reply to your second point being; I would say that Szeth is skilled enough as to only infuse what he will use as he is in a position to use it. We see him repeatedly drawing additional stormlight as he continues to fight, often from his own stock of gems as a fight progresses in The Way of Kings. Kelsier doesn't burn metals he isn't using, and Szeth doesn't hold stormlight he doesn't need.

To your third point I would say that once anyone got close enough to Szeth for him to feel threatened enough to draw stormlight then they are close enough for him to reach them, as he can use a multiple basic lashing to turn his gravitational pull towards them to fall towards them multiple times faster than gravity alone can do so, he would then arrive very quickly. I have no doubt that Szeth could catch a mistborn using basic lashings, the use of basic lashings on oneself can be used to fly, I have no doubt that Szeth can do so.

For this fight I would assume the following point:

Everyone is aware they will be fighting.

What this means is:

Dalinar is in full Shardplate, with his Shardblade in hand.

Wax has a store of metals which are in his stomach and has metal minds both full and empty so he can alter his weight either way, he also has additional metals to consume as required and he has an aluminium weapon and haze killer bullets along with a large supply of coins handy.

Kelsier has a stomach full of metals, with additional metals to hand as required and a large supply of coins

Szeth has a large stock of stormlight infused gems and I’d say he has his shardblase out.

I would then also assume this point:

That there is no natural advantage to the terrain.

What that means is:

No mists

No additional sources of stormlight

No metal to be pushed or pulled upon as part of the terrain – allomancers would have to use their own supply of coins to move

I would feel that these two points would be fair to assume, along with another point previously theorised; that they know of each others powers, these three points I feel being essential to creating a fair playing field.

I would also remember that a benefit of stormlight is that you don't have to be touching it to 'ingest' it. Unlike allomancy, where after using one duralumin enhanced anything requires you to physically restock your stores.

[hoser]

Wow, Brendan, I am really impressed at the thought and effort you've put into this. The only thing I'd really quibble with is that humans will likely fight in a human environment, so maybe there should be some iron or steel points to push or pull.

If they start in melee range and Szeth has already retrieved his sword there is no telling what might happen, Szeth is fast and deadly, but atium is OP'ed and mistborn are maneuverable. Indoors, I think he might be able to surprise an unwary mistborn and it would be basically up to the author's discretion.

Beyond melee range, atium and ranged weapons seem to favor the mistborn. I can't even see it lasting very long.

However, assuming that Szeth can somehow defend himself, I believe that his inefficient use of stormlight, the way its use can be detected and his melee range would allow a mistborn to win a war of "attrition". I am assuming that Szeth's defense requires the use of stormlight.

Obviously, not if Szeth is given infinite stormlight.

I must be missing a few things.

To your third point I would say that once anyone got close enough to Szeth for him to feel threatened enough to draw stormlight then they are close enough for him to reach them, as he can use a multiple basic lashing to turn his gravitational pull towards them to fall towards them multiple times faster than gravity alone can do so, he would then arrive very quickly.

I have no doubt that Szeth could catch a mistborn using basic lashings...

I don't follow this. Mistborn have ranged weapons, Szeth is limited to melee. They can both accelerate, Szeth still has mass and momentum and closing in three dimensions is difficult. As soon as his target moves laterally those multiple lashings pull him away. New lashings consume more stormlight and his existing momentum reduces their effectiveness.

Szeth has to draw stormlight when a mistborn approaches to within ranged range(?), whereas the mistborn only needs to consume resources if Szeth starts glowing and pursues. Pursuit would use even more stormlight, putting Szeth in a Catch-22 situation.

Now, if the mistborn were to attack with ranged weapons while Szeth pursues, Szeth would have merely reduced his reaction time and increased his distance from any defensive assets.

What am I missing?

Edited June 1, 2012 by hoser

[Inkthinker]

Maybe I missed it, but has nobody pointed out that Szeth might neutralize a Mistborn's mobility through Lashing? Stick 'em to the ground, or better yet the wall or ceiling, especially at multiple gravities, and they're going to be in a heap of trouble.

[Brendan]

The only thing I'd really quibble with is that humans will likely fight in a human environment, so maybe there should be some iron or steel points to push or pull.

If that's the case, then I would say it is nearly as likely for there to be lamps of stormlight infused gems to illuminate the area, which is common practice in Roshar, where even the poorest of slaves (bridgmen) use them as such. I think a playing field without either would be more reasonable.

I think that it is a fair enough statement to say that Szeth could not be killed from a projectile weapon whilst he is holding stormlight. Reverse lashings are the most stormlight efficient lashing possible, (according to the Ars Arcanum in The Way of Kings) so if a Mistborn was to stay at a distance and shoot anything at Szeth he could survive for a long period of time, only drawing enough stormlight to counter each attack.

New lashings consume more stormlight and his existing momentum reduces their effectiveness

I won’t argue this statement as I have no knowledge of any reference to existing momentums effect on basic lashings and although we never see it affecting Szeth in any of his battles in The Way of Kings, I would not argue that it doesn't happen.

However I feel that Szeth can move faster than a Mistborn, in the air they are limited to the speed of gravity, whilst Szeth can multiply the effects of gravity to move much faster, Szeth can travel at any direction at an amazing speed, with the only qualifier being his limited amount of stormlight. Mistborn tho are restricted to their direction and speed dependent upon metal being around them and the metal stock inside them.

On the ground I feel that pewter and stormlight would give about the same advantage (unless anyone has a quote showing otherwise?).

Szeth has to draw stormlight when a mistborn approaches to within ranged range(?), whereas the mistborn only needs to consume resources if Szeth starts glowing and pursues. Pursuit would use even more stormlight, putting Szeth in a Catch-22 situation.

I'd disagree, the drawing of stormlight and the activation of a reverse lashing we have seen numerous times in The Way of Kings as something not even thought of but a reaction (Kaladin and the arrows to the bridge) Szeth would only have to use this power if he was attacked and until such time he need not do anything.

Atium does give an advantage to a Mistborn, who would certainly be able to keep away from Szeth whilst using it, however with the power of a reverse lashing I still don't see a way it could help one to kill Szeth while he had stormlight, and without stormlight a Mistborn wouldn't need Atium to kill him.

I don't believe you are at all suggesting that a Mistborn would try to take Szeth on in melee whilst he held stormlight, Szeth has the obvious advantage there.

I would say (I think this is what you are also saying?) that a mistborn would have to either:

a ) Bleed out Szeths store of stormlight to win

b ) Get Szeth away from anything he could use a reverse lashing upon and kill him from range

I don't think Szeth would allow b ) to happen, given the fact that a piece of wood held out to his side would redirect anything shot at him with a simple reverse lashing and given my previous assumption of knowledge of his opponents skills, so that leaves a ) as the only possible winning option for a Mistborn in my opinion.

Whilst I think a ) is possible I feel it is much more likely that Szeth would be able to catch the Mistborn in melee, due to his greater speed and mobility and each time the Mistborn would require Atium to escape, given the rarity of Atium *I* would say the Mistborn would run out of Atium before Szeth ran out of stormlight. Which would give the victory to Szeth, if the other two competitors are not being considered.

[hoser]

Maybe I missed it, but has nobody pointed out that Szeth might neutralize a Mistborn's mobility through Lashing? Stick 'em to the ground, or better yet the wall or ceiling, especially at multiple gravities, and they're going to be in a heap of trouble.

Well, if Szeth can touch a mistborn, he can probably slice through them with a sword, gg .

Otherwise, if he lashes the ground to be attractive, then why doesn't he stick to it? I think it's because he's invested. Well, I assume an active mistborn is invested also. Remember how he couldn't lash the Shardbearers in the battle against the veden king, so he lashed the table under them. Why a mistborn would land in that particular spot is also a problem for Szeth. A mistborn can also just drop a coin and push off it if he somehow got "stuck".

What am I missing?

If that's the case, then I would say it is nearly as likely for there to be lamps of stormlight infused gems to illuminate the area, which is common practice in Roshar, where even the poorest of slaves (bridgmen) use them as such. I think a playing field without either would be more reasonable.

I miss many things and this could easily be one of them. I haven't seen this at all.

The very rich use gems to illuminate secure indoor locations. Gems are valuable. Nobody leaves them around outside because they would be stolen. Yes, even the bridgemen use their few chips for illumination, but they bring them with them and take them when they go (and bridgemen chips don't provide much in the way of either light or stormlight).

I would like to see the textual support for the notion of Rosharian gem "streetlights". While currency is used in both systems, the Rosharian gems have much more than token value, whereas metal is everywhere as a fundamental construction material. A coin's value is largely symbolic.

Given your contention that mistborn cannot accelerate while airborne, this could be very relevant.

You make some other very thoughtful points, but I don't have time now to advance this discussion further. Cheers!

Edited June 2, 2012 by Windrunner
Please use the multiquote feature instead of double posting