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Poll on Szeth


Flywinged

Szeth Opinion  

64 members have voted

  1. 1. What is your opinion on Szeth?

    • Favorite Character
      5
    • Like
      17
    • Dislike
      7
    • Indifferent
      2
    • Curious
      14
    • Witholding judgement until Stones Unhallowed
      16
    • Other
      3


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So I've read a lot of conflicting thoughts on Szeth recently, and I wanted to make a poll in order to better judge the community's opinion of him. He is personally my favorite character as of now because he is the most interesting character for me to read about. He is at the center of the current conflict happening everywhere on Roshar, and despite being, for all intents and purposes, forced to kill against his will, I argue he has still kept his sanity. Basically he is just really interesting to me.

 

I'm really interested to see opinions on Szeth compiled into poll, so please go ahead and vote!

Edited by Flywinged
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I am expecting great things from Szeth. He has got a fresh start and new direction. I like that he got a second chance and hope this time he won't blindly follow someone else ( wink wink Nalan). Truth be told, I am anticipating Stormlight 3 for two characters only - Szeth and Adolin.

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I argue he has still kept his sanity. 

 

There are multiple people who comment on his madness in WoR though...? 

 

I'm "withholding" right now. I liked him in WoK as he was conflicted, but once he blamed the king for having a banquet and having it full of people that Szeth would then have to kill, he totally lost me in terms of interest. 

 

I also am bummed that he revived at the end, I would much more have preferred Stones Unhallowed (or whatever it ends up being called) to be the book with the dead character flashbacks at this point (mainly because I like all the other characters more right now).

Edited by Green Hoodie Mistborn
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I agree Szeth was unhinged in WoR. I would say being used as a political assassin by Taravangian was the reason behind it. It is one thing thing to be bound to a oathstone by his honour. However being reduced to Taravangian's pawn and having to senselessly murder so many people, would have destroyed any other person. I think he redeemed himself during the fight with Kaladin, when he committed suicide at Kaladin's hands after realising he had been duped. His oathstone had forbidden him from taking his life, but he abandoned his oath because it was the honourable thing to do. Now that he is back his story has great potential.

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Szeth is one of my top 4 favorite cosmere characters, along with Hoid, Nightblood, and Wayne.

He holds that place because he is a badchull. Interlude 9: Death Wears White was one of my favorite scenes in all of literature. It was EPIC.

 

I think he gets alot of undeserved hate, and that few people recognize his strength. Or how awesome he is.

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Szeth's interesting. He holds views I find repugnant, but he's got amazing willpower, as shown through his ability to uphold his beliefs even though it tears him apart to do so. (Comparing him to Kaladin, who chooses his morality based on what "lets him sleep at night", is interesting. Kaladin has to be forced into doing the "right" thing because he feels bad when he doesn't do it, whereas Szeth has no such problem.)

 

In that sense, he's one of Stormlight's most "moral" characters, willing to suffer any pain to do what he feels is right, which puts him up there with Taravangian. I'm not entirely sure I'll ever come to like him, but I'm eager to see more of him, if that makes sense.

Edited by Moogle
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I try to resist the urge to think "Why would Szeth keep obeying his oathstone, even though Taravangian is using him for horrible purposes? It's obviously wrong," because Szeth was raised and conditioned to believe that the laws of his people were right.  

 

Imagine if your country and your religion were both telling you to do something that felt wrong to you.  Some people would do it, and some people wouldn't.  Who is being honorable? Both, under different definitions of honor.

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I voted dislike.  I actively hate Szeth, and I enjoy how much I hate him.  As a character, he's interesting, but I'm not eager to learn more from his personal viewpoints.  I enjoy him as an Interlude villain, but would have preferred any of a dozen other possibilities for a viewpoint character. 

 

In explanation of my point of view on this, I've found a few of the comments that others have that explain why they like him, and I will respond to them below.  Please understand, though, that this is how I feel, and I don't find fault for how you feel (even though you're wrong :D ). 

 

 

He is at the center of the current conflict happening everywhere on Roshar, and despite being, for all intents and purposes, forced to kill against his will, I argue he has still kept his sanity

Szeth was never forced to kill against his will.  He chose to do so.  He was acting, on his own, according to orders given from others.  I disagree, adamantly, that he was 'forced' to do anything.  He had the strength, power, and skill necessary to prevent any of the deaths that occurred at his hand by simply doing nothing.  Even if there was some kind of extreme blackmail-type situation going on, where if he doesn't do what the holder of his Oathstone says the Stone Shamanate kills his family, I would still find fault with Szeth.  The most interesting thing about Szeth is that Szeth himself thinks he is doing evil, and wrong, and accruing sin, but he does it anyway--but that fact is what makes me hate him.

 

 

However being reduced to Taravangian's pawn and having to senselessly murder so many people, would have destroyed any other person. I think he redeemed himself during the fight with Kaladin, when he committed suicide at Kaladin's hands after realising he had been duped. His oathstone had forbidden him from taking his life, but he abandoned his oath because it was the honourable thing to do. Now that he is back his story has great potential.          

Yes, such dedication to doing whatever someone else says, no matter how repugnant or evil, is surely something that should be praised.  I don't find it a strength, at all, but I recognize that is just my own viewpoint.  However, he hasn't done anything to redeem himself yet.  So what that he stopped fighting against Kaladin at the last second?  Kaladin clearly had the upper hand at that point of the fight, so Szeth's action is symbolic only and with no real sacrifice.  This is the man that has cast the world into chaos, leading to the virtual shutdown of some nations and the end of another, and you think that him not fighting for a few seconds in a fight he was losing is some form of redemption?  Strongly disagree; even if Szeth was handily beating Kaladin and then chose suicide on Kaladin's blade, I would disagree with this being redemption.  I do think his story has great potential to be very interesting, but there is literally nothing that can be done to make me like the guy. 

 

 

I think he gets alot of undeserved hate, and that few people recognize his strength.

He deserves all of the hate that he gets, and more.  He is a direct or indirect cause of the major problems facing the world, including the Everstorm.  Also, you'll find plenty of people on these forums that actually like Szeth or at least find him interesting/intriguing or don't hate him much. 

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Please understand, though, that this is how I feel, and I don't find fault for how you feel (even though you're wrong :D ).

Well I am all in support for agreeing to disagree :).

I actively hate Szeth, and I enjoy how much I hate him.

I have nothing much to say to that.

Szeth was never forced to kill against his will. He chose to do so. He was acting, on his own, according to orders given from others. I disagree, adamantly, that he was 'forced' to do anything.

This is the point where I disagree with you the most. It has been said by several sharders that Szeth is a product of his society. I believe the pressure to conform to the rules of society can be greater than any direct threat to life and family. When we see the Shin society in detail in next book, we will know the societal pressures on Szeth. Even the Diagram speaks of using a Truthless. That indicates that becoming a Truthless involved radical conditioning to instill absolute obedience. Szeth was honour bound to be a slave to the holder of his oathstone. I don't intend to condone his crimes. Even Szeth wouldn't want that. He after all only wishes for someone to kill him and end his misery. Szeth, in the larger perspective was only a weapon. The largest part of the blame would fall on those who made him this way and those who used him.

He had the strength, power, and skill necessary to prevent any of the deaths that occurred at his hand by simply doing nothing.

Didn't he do exactly that in the end. Granted he was losing and he had killed a lot of people but he did stop fighting. He could have saved his life by escaping by running away but he chose to die. Edited by Twenty@20
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Loved him in Wok. But in WoR, he seemed to have snapped, and I didnt like him a lot.

 

Have to agree with this. Now, granted, he didn't get as many interludes in WoR as he did in WoK, and presumbly he's been busier than ever following Taravangian's orders...

 

But I found the Szeth of Words of Radiance almost a completely different character than he was in Way of Kings, and I'm not sure how to feel about that. I feel like I've missed a lot of the stuff that's pushed him right over the edge, turning him from a guy serving out his penance reluctantly, to someone who shrugs and just decides to throw another body on the pile, cause what the hell, right? 

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Have to agree with this. Now, granted, he didn't get as many interludes in WoR as he did in WoK, and presumbly he's been busier than ever following Taravangian's orders...

But I found the Szeth of Words of Radiance almost a completely different character than he was in Way of Kings, and I'm not sure how to feel about that. I feel like I've missed a lot of the stuff that's pushed him right over the edge, turning him from a guy serving out his penance reluctantly, to someone who shrugs and just decides to throw another body on the pile, cause what the hell, right?

I believe the event which pushed Szeth over the edge was his first meeting with Kaladin. It shook him to his core and made him question his beliefs, his life as Truthless.

“Have I not been faithful?” Szeth shouted, finally looking up to face the sun. His voice echoed against the mountains and their spirit-souls. “Have I not obeyed, kept my oath? Have I not done as you demanded of me?”

The killing, the murder. He blinked tired eyes.

SCREAMS.

“What does it mean if the Shamanate are wrong? What does it mean if they banished me in error?”

It meant the End of All Things. The end of truth. It would mean that nothing made sense, and that his oath was meaningless.

It would mean he had killed for no reason.

WoR CH I-10

Szeth here is at the end of his tether watching his life crumbling around him. In his heart, he already thinks that he is beyond redemption. This is why we see the crazy, mad Szeth at the end. Edited by Twenty@20
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I'm so glad so many people are voting! It's cool to see what the actual distribution is. I was under the impression it was much more skewed towards the dislike spectrum.

 

I also feel like I need to explain why I like Szeth in more than one paragraph. (This is in no way an attack against anyone in this thread, I just don't think I explained myself very well). [Elantris Spoilers Follow] If I can direct you over to this poll, you'll notice Hrathen is currently the most liked character in Elantris. To me, Szeth is SA archive equivalent of Hrathen. Always on the opposite of the conflict as the other main characters, following his belief, and striking to his faith. Despite the fact he thinks its wrong. (Hrathen actually does not think his faith is wrong until very near to the end of the novel) Once Hrathen came to terms with himself, and settled his internal conflict, he singlehandedly shifted the entire outcome of Elantris. Szeth is in a very similar situation. 

 

 

Just a testament to how he subtly shows his true self throughout the series:

 

-He respects Gavilar's last wish by writing the message to his brother.

-He does not tell Makkek about his honorblade in order to avoid unnecessary violence.

-While performing tasks for Taravangian, he purposely tries to harm as few people as possible.

-From WoK I-6

 

"There is no greatness in killing"

-All from WoK I-9

 

- "I am sorry, [szeth] thought"

- "He did not ignore the wails of pain. He paid attention to each and every one. And hated himself"

- "Szeth found himself crying." (this while he is fighting the people with half shards with the orders to "Kill. Kill as you have never killed before"

- "Szeth stepped through them mournfully, striking"

 

There are many more, but this gets across my point that Szeth knows what he is doing is wrong. He wholeheartedly disagrees. He wishes he was not doing what he is doing. But every ounce of his honor, demands that he does. If you notice, all of those quote I chose are from WoK. Partly because we have more information on Szeth in WoK, but partly because Szeth changes in WoR; more specifically when he first fights with Kaladin. This is when he starts to question his ingrained version of honor. He starts to realize that what his people believe is honor, is not what he believes is honor.

 

 

[WoR Spoilers]

From WoR, I-10

 

"Have I not been faithful?" Szeth shouted, finally looking up to face the sun. His voice echoed against the mountnains and their spirit-souls. "Have I not obeyed, kept my oath? Have I not done as you demanded of me?"

The killing, the murder. He blinked his tired eyes.

SCREAMS

"What does it mean if the Shamanate are wrong? What does it mean if they banished me in error?"

It meant the End of All Things. The end of truth. It would mean that nothing made sense, and that his oath was meaningless.

It would mean he had killed for no reason."

I picked this quote because It holds a lot of weight in my mind. This is the moment in WoR radiance when we see Szeth start to really question his beliefs.  He also decided at the end of this interlude he was going to kill people, of his own accord this time. I think he is mentioning Kaladin, because he wants answers (also stated in this interlude). He wants to know for sure if he was right or wrong. During his fight with Kaladin, he is constantly trying to convince himself that the Shamanate were correct, and he is justified in his killing.

 

Then, during their fight, Szeth says to Kaladin,

 

"It is actually true... Then I was right all along. I was never Truthless. I could have stopped the murders at any time"

And then he lets Kaladin kill him. He knows he is in the wrong. He knows he has been lied to. He knows he has been used. He was broken.

After Nalan revives him by healing his soul which was cut away from the shard blade, I think Szeth is a different man. More like he was in WoK, only this time, I doubt he will follow his oathstone. The thing which cause many of the things people don't like about Szeth, will no longer be influencing him. From this point on in the series, I believe we will see the true Szeth, as noted by the many quotes I pulled out earlier.

 

Also, a quote from Nalan.

 

"I watched you destroy yourself in the name of order, watched you obey your personal code when others would have fled or crumbled"

This is primarily the reason I like Szeth. Once he sets his mind, he does not stray. Now that he has quite literally been reborn, I think he has "purified" himself of many of the negative quantities associated with the Oathstone and will be able to rigidly stick to what he believes is right. [spoilers End]

 

 

A lot of times, I read people disliking Szeth because they believe he should have abandoned his beliefs long ago. If he is crying when he kills, why not just stop? But I think thats looking at the situation with very narrow eyes. Our world today is much more accepting of making that sort of decision than Roshar is. For comparison, imagine yourself in the 1600s. You propose the idea that the sun is the center of the solar system. You are then put on house arrest for the rest of your life. I imagine disobeying the Shin Shamans are even stricter than this. If Szeth had disobeyed, who knew what they would have done? Torturing him, or if he disobeyed by taking his life, torturing his family.

 

 

So to sum up, I know Szeth has done many bad things, yet deep down he is one of the most righteous people in SA and I expect that is the part of him we will see from now on.

 

Again, just my opinion on Szeth. I think he is going to turn out to be more honorable then many other many characters, assuming he lives long enough for that the be shown. He still stands as my favorite character, and hopefully I'll be able to stand by that opinion when SA 3 is released.

 

 

edit: Forgot to add that Szeth is just a badass fighter. Hard for me to argue with not liking that.

Edited by Flywinged
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I admit that this feels a bit cheap but I already stated my opinion (which of course is also only my opinion and not intended as an attack) on Szeth, so I´ll just quote myself. :P

 

Szeth was aware that what he did was wrong. He is a bit like the villagers from Wit´s story in WoK, with just one difference. He never belived that there was some kind of "king" that had all the blame. Yes, he blames both his master and his victims but he knows that he isn´t absolved from his crimes. What excuse does Szeth have?

He dosen´t think he is doing the right thing.

He dosen´t think that it isn´t his responsibility.

He dosen´t think it is a necessary evil, as for example Mr. T. views his own actions.

He dosen´t think that it is okay to kill his victims in any way.

He dosen´t even take some kind of pleasure in it.

What is left? The Stoneshamans told him to do it. That is all. He is dedicated to his doctrin beyond insanity, but that dosen´t make it the right thing. There is some kind of twisted strenght here and I´m not certain if coward is the right word for him, nonetheless what he did was wrong and can not be justified. Given that he did it for his own religion and can not stand the possibility of all he did being wrong, see him fleeing from Kaladin, one could call his actions selfish in the same twisted way one could call them strong. All in all I think this makes Szeth  a villain, that manages to be both tragic and repulsive at the same time.

The fact that this whole time he was right and with that his "punishment" entierly pointless just makes this all around worse. Think about it, if he had some confidence in himself he could have been one of the greates heroes in this story, instead he became a monster.

What I might add is that I really liked Szeth at the beginning of WoK but it constantly shifted downwards from there. Right now I put my opinion on "other" as a person I don´t like him but he is... fascinating to read about.

 

Now on to reply to some arguments made:

 

 

To me, Szeth is SA archive equivalent of Hrathen. Always on the opposite of the conflict as the other main characters, following his belief, and striking to his faith. Despite the fact he thinks its wrong. (Hrathen actually does not think his faith is wrong until very near to the end of the novel) Once Hrathen came to terms with himself, and settled his internal conflict, he singlehandedly shifted the entire outcome of Elantris. Szeth is in a very similar situation

Funny, to me Szeth is the exact opposite to Hrathen. His defining characteristic isn´t blind obedience but that he questions himself and his belief constantly and once he noticed that he´s on the wrong side he adjusts accordingly. Actually, I´m willing to bet money that Hrathen, if he was in Szeth shoes, would not have carried out the duties of a Truthless. (aka. slaughter of innocents for no greater purpose)

He does not think he´s wrong and in fact keeps to his religion because it makes sense to him, occacional doubts none withstanding, and that´s what makes him such a good character in my opinion.

 

As for changing the outcome of the story, you´re giving Szeth credit for something he hasn´t done yet. He might but he also might make every  thing so much worse.

 

-From WoK I-6

 

"There is no greatness in killing"

I agree with Szeth here.

 

 

But every ounce of his honor, demands that he does.

This is something I have been wondering about and this is a honest question. Why is this a good thing? Honor is a very nebulous concept, apparently it can even mean to slaughter innocent, so how is Szeth´s persuit of it anything but motivated by self-interest?

 

 

And then he lets Kaladin kill him. He knows he is in the wrong. He knows he has been lied to. He knows he has been used. He was broken.

and he couldn´t take it anymore, absolving himself from his guilt instead of living with it and using his skill and knowledge to help against the Desolation he knew is comming, at least trying for some form of repentance for his aknowledged sins.

 

 

Forgot to add that Szeth is just a badass fighter. Hard for me to argue with not liking that.

I have to agree with this, his fights are absurdly badchull and with Nightblood will hopefully only get better.

(I noticed that I soley replied to you Flywinged but that´s only because you put out the most detailed post and it keept me from searching through every post again for arguments. I have to say that the amount of work in your post is impressive. ;) )

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@Edgedancer   Upvote because I like friendly discussion and you make good points.

 

There are a lot of points we'll probably just have to agree to disagree on. I'm glad we both agree Szeth fights like a badchull though. Plus Nightblood is equally badchull, so I'm ready for epicness next book.

 

Anyway, onto the topic. I read Elantris awhile ago, so I had to go back and read a couple sections. I was originally incorrect, Hrathen did not so much renounce his faith, as disagreed with those who administered his faith. (So he still believed in the principle, but disagreed with those in charge). Szeth is very similar in that regard. After he is revived, he still believes in his religion (if we can call whatever it is the Shin people do, a religion) but is out for vengeance against the leaders. Or at least that's how Nalan words it. I still stand by my decision to say Szeth and Hrathen are very similar. I could go into more detail as to why I think they are similar; Hrathen also standing by while his faith causes many to die. But I'm not sure it will do anything but spark more argument, so I'll just keep it to myself unless someone wants to hear it.

 

 

One last thing. I want to clarify that I don't condone Szeth's actions. But what makes a good character to me has nothing to do with whether or not I agree with their actions. Actually, a good character in my opinion is one that I can't predict. One that constantly leaves me guessing. That is Szeth for me. I have no idea what is going to become of him. That is why he is my favorite character. Not because I agree with his slaughter, or that somehow I try to justify what he has done, but that he is the most interesting character at this point in the series. I have no clue what he is going to do in this next book, which makes him the most appealing character at this point.

 

So regardless of our slight (yes, I do believe them to be slight, because I still believe basically all of his actions are wrong, I just believe no one is giving him the credit he deserves. Or people are being way too harsh on him. Doing what he did, is a testament to his will. And now hopefully he will follow himself, instead of the Shamans, or whoever told him he was Truthless) disagreements on the honor and righteousness of Szeth, even if I'm proven wrong and he really just is all around a terrible person, he would still be my favorite character.

Edited by Flywinged
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