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Prolonged Soulcasting Syndrome


Stormwalker

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I don't know if this has been theorized on before, but to cut the preamble short, my idea is the effects of prolonged use of soulcasters are caused because the soulcasters are draining investiture from your soul (i.e. your innate investiture).

 

To start, for those who don't remember, prolonged use of soulcasting fabrials comes at at a cost to one's body (what I term Prolonged Soulcasting Sydrome (PSS)):

 

That included the five Soulcasters. Each stood with right hand to breast, displaying a sparkling fabrial across the back of the palm. One of the ardents glanced at Adolin. Stormfather—that gaze wasn't completely human, not any longer. Prolonged use of the Soulcaster had transformed the eyes so that they sparkled like gemstones themselves. The woman's skin had hardened to something like stone, smooth, with fine cracks. It was as if the person were a living statue.

WOR Ch. 35

 

The question  is why? (I believe) we know that using investiture has a degenerative effect on oneself, and this was my first thoery, but I think PSS seems to be far too dramatic an effect for this to be the cause. Moreover, surgebinding doesn't seem to cause PSS, and, as far as we know, the fabrials try to mimic the surgebindings, so why one and not the other? The only thing I can think of elsewhere in the cosmere similar to PSS is when one uses Nightblood without breath, which had the effect of draining colour from one's body (before death).

 

So, my idea is that soulcasters (and perhaps other old fabrials, like the regrowth fabrial seen by Nale and nameless Stoneward #1) are meant to be used by surgebinders, and as such, try to draw stormlight from their user. However, for the non-radiant ardents that use them (and thus can't draw in stormlight to fuel the fabrials), it slowly drains the investure from their innate investiture. This is exactly as the case with Nightblood, which normally drains one's breath when used, but if one doesn't have breath, it drains their innate investiture, killing them (if not stopped quickly enough). The difference here is that the soulcasters do this at a much slower rate, hence we only get a physical transformation, and not immediate death (although perhaps after enough use, death will occur).

 

Of course, the obvious problems with this is that the Nightblood effect was only draining one's colour (which makes sense on Nalthis, as colour is drained in awakening), whereas PSS is significantly different, with no Roshar-specific reason that I can think of to explain it. Moreover, shard-severed limbs can be thought of as a damaged innate investiture, and they, like with Nightblood, drain the colour of the limb, not turn it to stone. But perhaps there are different manifestations of losing innate investiture. Or perhaps that is what happens when you drain a lot of investiture from one part of the body, whereas soulcaster-use drains a small amount of investiture from the whole body (PSS seems to effect the whole body at once, whereas Nightblood affects seems to affect your arm first).

 

This idea actually just came to me, so I may add to it more later.

 

So, Plausible? Obvious? clearly wrong? discussed before?

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My main problem with this idea is actually one of quantities. We've seen how much Stormlight even a basic Soulcasting requires, and it feels unlikely to me that Rosharans will have that much innate Investiture. 

 

I suppose I didn't communicate it well, but my idea was that the soulcasters drain innate investiture as well as investiture from outside sources (spheres). I would agree that the soulcasters definitely seem to use more investiture than is drained from the users. I guess most of it is taken from the infused spheres and only a small portion is taken from the individual. Although, I must say, as of yet, I don't have any explanation for why the soulcasters can use some outside investiture, but still need some from the user themselves.

 

EDIT: Perhaps to start the process?

 

Also in WoK we see Jasnah use her 'soulcaster'. And, IIRC, when she used it, the gemstones inside would drain at the same time, and possibly even crack (although I don't have my WoK on me, so correct me if I'm wrong). That didn't seem to me like she sucked in the stormlight and then soulcasted. So maybe one can use outside stormlight to help power one's soulcasting in general, but some stormlight always has to come from the individual.

Edited by Stormwalker
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Slight Mistborn spoilers:

 

The Radiant in Dalinar's vision had a fabrial with infused gems, and those with Soulcasters use infused gems. It is unlikely they were meant to draw directly from their user's Stormlight.

 

We have another example of people in the cosmere who've lost part of (all?) their innate Investiture: Drabs. They don't become physically deformed.

 

As to Surgebindings not harming the person, Stormlight heals you passively, and would prevent that.

 

The key description, I think, is that they are "no longer completely human". This fits in very well with the description of Inquisitors and other Hemalurgic creations, as well as Allomantic savants (at least, the tin variety). I strongly suspect this means there's a change or addition to their spiritwebs, not a removal of anything.

 

Without knowing more about the functions of fabrials, it's hard to say anything.

 

Massive speculation: If we go by the "bonds to Splinters are the focus of Roshar" theory, people who use Surgebinding fabrials are essentially getting a weak form of the Nahel bond which does not allow them to draw in Stormlight. Because they're not able to take in Stormlight directly, they take it in like an Allomancer (using the fabrial as equivalent to burning metals), and over time (given the massive demand for Soulcaster use, this shouldn't take long) become Surgebinding savants. The alteration to their spiritweb physically changes them.

 

As minor evidence for the speculation, the Soulcaster's eyes sparkle like gemstones, and Radiant's eyes also turn to looking more like gemstones. Seems like it'd be a similar change to the spiritweb, there.

Edited by Moogle
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We have another example of people in the cosmere who've lost part of (all?) their innate Investiture: Drabs. They don't become physically deformed.

 

Well, I don't know if drabs have lost all their innate investiture. In a post you, yourself made, I think you explain quite well that the WoB are conflicting on whether Drabs have any innate investiture left. I'll put the relevant WoB in a spoiler:

 

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, for instance, the Godking, at the end, with all of those Breaths. Pushing on something inside of him? Getting through all that? Gonna be REAL hard. Average person on Scadrial? You’ve seen how hard that is. A drab? Much easier.

Herowannabe

That was actually going to be my next one- No, sorry, not a drab, a Lifeless.

Brandon Sanderson

A Lifeless. Lifeless are kinda weird, because they’ve had their soul leave, but then they’ve had a replacement stuck in, in the form of Breath, which puts them in a really weird position compared to a Drab, which has had part of their investiture ripped away, but the majority of it remains. So anyway, I’m going to give you one more. Pick your favorite.

 

Question

Do all the humans have innate Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

I believe that they all do. I don't think that you've seen anyone without innate Investiture yet. [Drabs] do not have innate Investiture. And on Scadrial they have the pieces of Ruin and Preservation in them. And they do have it on Roshar.

Moreover, I believe we do know Nightblood kills by sucking the soul from someone, and I'm pretty sure the soul is investiture. In any case, I meant for the soulcasters to work like nightblood—clearly nightblood does something even to drabs. My idea was that the soulcasters do the same thing, whatever it is (which I believe is draining innate investiture/the soul).

 

As to Surgebindings not harming the person, Stormlight heals you passively, and would prevent that.

 

I suppose I can't argue with you there. Although, do we know if Stormlight can heal innate investiture loss? I guess it can repair one's spiritweb (in the form of healing shardblade wounds). But I wonder if that is the same thing.

 

 

The key description, I think, is that they are "no longer completely human". This fits in very well with the description of Inquisitors and other Hemalurgic creations, as well as Allomantic savants (at least, the tin variety). I strongly suspect this means there's a change or addition to their spiritwebs, not a removal of anything.

 

I think it is a bit much to compare soulcasting fabrials with Inquisitors and Koloss. Hemalurgy represents a massive changing of the spiritweb by literally attaching a piece of somebody else's spiritweb to yourself. I don't think use of a soulcaster, even over many years is going to produce such an effect. If it did, then why wouldn't all magic users in the cosmere suffer the same fate? You can use Allomancy for years without having any deterimental effects, as long as you don't use it constantly.

 

Moreover, in regards to Savantism, I don't think it is comparable. Savants, as far as I'm aware, never manifest any sort of physical deformity. IIRC tin Savants gain very sensitive senses, pewter savants stop feeling pain and exhaustion, and bronze savants don't seem to have any physical effect beyond better usage of bronze. In each case, being a Savant seems to heighten the natural benefits of whatever type of allomancy it uses, it never adds a random physical deformity.

 

Now, you might say that prolonged soulcasting syndrome is related to the magic that causes it—it turns people to stone, and, as we saw, the ardents were creating stone. The problem with this, is that as far as I know, the main use of soulcasters was creating food, not buildings. So why did the ardents turn to stone instead of into food? Or into metal? Or anything else? I suppose there might be different groups of ardents for each essence, but we don't have any evidence of that. If perhaps we end up seeing an ardent who manifests the syndrome in other ways, than this might work, but as of now, 5/5 soulcasting ardents have turned to stone.

 

Nonetheless, I will admit, spiritweb alteration is a plausible thoery. I just don't see any particularly convincing evidence for it.

Edited by Stormwalker
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Well, I don't know if drabs have lost all their innate investiture. In a post you, yourself made, I think you explain quite well that the WoB are conflicting on whether Drabs have any innate investiture left.

Moreover, I believe we do know Nightblood kills by sucking the soul from someone, and I'm pretty sure the soul is investiture. In any case, I meant for the soulcasters to work like nightblood—clearly nightblood does something even to drabs. My idea was that the soulcasters do the same thing, whatever it is (which I believe is draining innate investiture/the soul).

 

Brandon's confirmed the soul is Investiture, but I think you slightly misinterpreted my argument. Drabs, whether or not they've lost all their innate Investiture, have lost some of it. The effects don't include physical deformities. You're more irritable, get sick more often, and your eyes seem to sparkle less. If Soulcasters are draining Investiture from the soul, that should have a similar effect as a Drab giving up their Breath - and Soulcasters have eyes that "sparkle like gemstones", whereas Drabs lose the sparkle in their eyes. So, I don't think they are losing much, and rather are gaining something.

 

Also: Radiants gain lighter eyes because their spren add to their spiritweb, and so it seems like less innate Investiture on Roshar should cause dark eyes. Again, we find Soulcasters have gem-colored eyes as opposed to dark eyes.

 

I think it is a bit much to compare soulcasting fabrials with Inquisitors and Koloss. Hemalurgy represents a massive changing of the spiritweb by literally attaching a piece of somebody else's spiritweb to yourself. I don't think use of a soulcaster, even over many years is going to produce such an effect. If it did, then why wouldn't all magic users in the cosmere suffer the same fate? You can use Allomancy for years without having any deterimental effects, as long as you don't use it constantly.

 

Moreover, in regards to Savantism, I don't think it is comparable. Savants, as far as I'm aware, never manifest any sort of physical deformity. IIRC tin Savants gain very sensitive senses, pewter savants stop feeling pain and exhaustion, and bronze savants don't seem to have any physical effect beyond better usage of bronze. In each case, being a Savant seems to heighten the natural benefits of whatever type of allomancy it uses, it never adds a random physical deformity.

 

In regards to why other magic users don't suffer deformities, Roshar is somewhat unique in that it's a high-Investiture world. Scadrial doesn't have much Investiture floating around. It seems like Soulcasters would be coming into contact with much, much higher concentrations of Investiture than Allomancers do, so maybe this changes things? I'm not sure we have enough examples of magic users that we can say other savants don't suffer physical deformities.

 

As to savants, perhaps they don't quite gain physical deformities in the sense that they look inhuman, but it is said that some can be considered no longer human. Pewter savants, for example, no longer feel pain - perhaps that's not a "deformity", but that's still a major alteration that has resulted in physical changes to their bodies. Tin savants, similarly, don't feel pain when they turn off their tin, because their bodies have just been warped that much.

 

It does seem that savantism in general does not seem like it causes deformities, so perhaps that's not what's going on. Perhaps it's merely gaining a bond to a Soulcasting fabrial that changes them, in the same way that gaining a bond to a Nahel spren causes your eyes to change. I'm not sure why the fabrial would have much more dramatic effects, though, beyond perhaps Stormlight healing stopping it for Nahel bondees. Maybe Surgebinding fabrials are sort of the equivalent of Hemalurgic spikes, and bonding one causes massive changes tot he spiritweb. That assumes you bond fabrials at all, though... the evidence is pretty scant for how these things work.

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Brandon's confirmed the soul is Investiture, but I think you slightly misinterpreted my argument. Drabs, whether or not they've lost all their innate Investiture, have lost some of it. The effects don't include physical deformities. You're more irritable, get sick more often, and your eyes seem to sparkle less. If Soulcasters are draining Investiture from the soul, that should have a similar effect as a Drab giving up their Breath - and Soulcasters have eyes that "sparkle like gemstones", whereas Drabs lose the sparkle in their eyes. So, I don't think they are losing much, and rather are gaining something.

 

You're right, I misinterpreted you. Nonetheless, the fact that Drabs don't have physical deformities is largely irrelevant to my argument. It is still clear that Nightblood's draining of the soul does produce a physical deformity.

 

When he had barely gotten a thin sliver of blade free, a dark, fluidlike smoke began to stream out. Some dripped to the ground; other tendrils of it snaked out and wrapped around the man’s arm, drawing the color from his skin.

Warbreaker. Ch.21

 

We already know this is an effect of draining innate investiture. The fact that drabs don't already suffer this fate is a different question altogether (perhaps there is two levels of innate investiture: one that is the equivalent of your innate breath (which drabs lose), and the more basic investiture required to live, from which your soul is made?). The idea was that soulcasters have a similar mechanism as Nightblood in regards to draining investiture, which was already established to cause a physical deformity not present in drabs.

 

 

 Also: Radiants gain lighter eyes because their spren add to their spiritweb, and so it seems like less innate Investiture on Roshar should cause dark eyes. Again, we find Soulcasters have gem-colored eyes as opposed to dark eyes.

 

I interpreted the phrase 'transformed the eyes so that they sparkled like gemstones themselves' to mean that the eyes had actually started turning into gemstones (or something similar), just as how their skin was turning into stone. I don't think it just meant their eyes were a lighter colour or had a sparkle to them.

 

I feel like a lot of your argument for the comparison between soulcasting and savants has to do with the fact that both are described as something similar to 'not completely human'. However, I don't really think what could easily be a chance similarity in words is a valid basis for an argument. Many things could make one look 'not completely human', that doesn't mean they are all related. Moreover, my argument explains well why they would be considered not completely human: they have lost part of their soul—the very thing that makes them human.

 

As some soft evidence for my position, this also perhaps explains why soulcasters and regrowth fabrials are so rare. If anybody could use them, why didn't they give them out to everybody? It would eliminate starvation and injury throughout the land. However, if using them without being a radiant meant permanent destruction of one's soul, it would make sense that only the radiants use them, and thus there isn't need for huge numbers of them.

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Stepping aside from the soulcasting drains innate investiture theory, what if the physical changes are due to repeated visits to Shadesmar. I admit we don't know how the ardents soulcast but the ardents in the WoK I-8 interlude talk about visits to Shadesmar. We have seen spren capable of hurting humans there. Though again I don't think that is the cause of their physical changes. Point is Shadesmar is an unknown territory so frequently visiting there may be the reason of these changes.

Edited by Twenty@20
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Stepping aside from the soulcasting drains innate investiture theory, what if the physical changes are due to repeated visits to Shadesmar. I admit we don't know how the ardents soulcast but the ardents in the WoK I-8 interlude talk about visits to Shadesmar. We have seen spren capable of hurting humans there. Though again I don't think that is the cause of their physical changes. Point is Shadesmar is an unknown territory so frequently visiting there may be the reason of these changes.

 

Possible, but I feel that, that is not likely the case. We have seen quite a few worldhoppers, and I believe we know that worldhopping involves going the Shadesmar in some way. Yet, none of these worldhoppers seemed to show the same symptoms as the ardents, and so at the very least, it doesn't seem likely to be a passive effect of entering shadesmar. And if some sort of spren was causing it, but then not all the ardents should have manifested the symptoms, even after prolonged use of the soulcasters. As for unknown things in shadesmar, of course, it is impossible to say.

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We do have another example of physical transformation on Roshar.  The Listeners.  Are there any irreplaceable gems on a soul-caster? Ones that may contain spren?  All the "new" fabrials contain spren.  The old may not -- but the magic of this planet seems to require some sort of link to spren (or physically investature like the Herald's swords).  

 

I would suggest that Ardents who soulcast a lot are creating a listener-type bond with some sort of spren, which causes appearance changes. Though that seems a bit of a stretch.  

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One kind of pointless explanation would be that the Soulcaster people are slowly becoming like the Soulcaster fabrial. 

 

It is very interesting that the fabrials and the users of the fabrial are referred to with the same name. 

 

The eyes, which burn out when shardbladed, may be the link to the soul/spiritual realm.  They are analogues to the gems, which store the energy from the spiritual realm (stormlight) in the physical.

 

The flesh, while not becoming metallic, is changing in a way that might resemble the "body" of the fabrial more. 

 

I fail to see how it matters as more than local color to the story unless the fabrial-like more experienced ardents, now forced to work in shifts, find that they can soulcast without the fabrials. 

 

The mechanism of the change seems mysterious also.  The only thoughts I have on the matter are:

  • the ardents identify and are identified with the fabrials so deeply that their spiritual or cognitive identity is being changed.
  • the process of exerting their will to change things subjects their spirit to be changed to be more like the objects they are changing or the fabrial they use. 
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Brandon RAFO'd a question about whether Knights Radiant have gemhearts.

 

That's probably related to PSS, since soulcasters are using similar amounts of stormlight, but don't have a gemheart to store it.  Channeling concentrated bursts of stormlight could transmute the body into a material more suitable for storing it.

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I fail to see how it matters as more than local color to the story unless the fabrial-like more experienced ardents, now forced to work in shifts, find that they can soulcast without the fabrials. 

 

The mechanism of the change seems mysterious also.  The only thoughts I have on the matter are:

  • the ardents identify and are identified with the fabrials so deeply that their spiritual or cognitive identity is being changed.

An interesting thought occurred to me while I was reading this, especially in conjunction with the question as to why soulcasters (the fabrial) are so rare.  What if a Soulcaster (ardent) actually turns into a soulcaster (fabrial), and that is the only way that new fabrials are made?  

 

I don't think this is the case, but it seems to answer why the fabrials are so rare, the change in appearance, and the secretiveness of it all.  If the first one was created by ripping out the parts of the person's spiritweb that contained the power of Soulcasting, that may also explain the possible similarities to Inquisitors, Koloss, and Kandra--via Hemalurgy.  

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I listenned to the end of WoR again today, and came up with a convoluted explanation. When describing Szeth's honor blade Syl, said that weilding it takes much more stormlight than spern-bond surgebinding. Dangerous amounts of stormlight.

Why would too much stormlight be dangerous? Is there only a limited quantity that a human mind can handle? If too much is "processed" does a person lose control of what it might do to them?

Is it not reasonable to guess that soulcasting fabrials, who are like honor blades in that they enable a form of non nahel-bond surgebinding, also require excessive use of stormlight? Dangerous amounts of stormlight.

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Yet it's always struck me as odd that not all fabrials seem to mimic surgebinding. What of spanreeds? Or its opposite, with the amethysts? What do we call the "warners" that don't seem to have any opposite? What would an opposite do, hide from a warner, like bronze and copper? There's no surge that inherently "increases" traits of things, like the heating fabrials do.

 

In fact, Soulcasters are sorta unique in that they are a fabrial that provide access to an actual Surge. We know Regrowth exists, but we've only seen it used by a Radiant and a Herald.

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Yet it's always struck me as odd that not all fabrials seem to mimic surgebinding. What of spanreeds? Or its opposite, with the amethysts? What do we call the "warners" that don't seem to have any opposite? What would an opposite do, hide from a warner, like bronze and copper? There's no surge that inherently "increases" traits of things, like the heating fabrials do.

 

In fact, Soulcasters are sorta unique in that they are a fabrial that provide access to an actual Surge. We know Regrowth exists, but we've only seen it used by a Radiant and a Herald.

 

The difference is easily explained by the presence of spren.

 

"New style" fabrials, like spanreeds and heaters, all contain trapped spren in their gemstones. For example, a trapped flamespren will (probably, it's not explicitly confirmed) generate heat. (See: Navani's journal.)

 

"Old style" fabrials, aka Surgebinding fabrials, contain no spren in their gemstones (as proven by the fact that the cracked gems in Soulcasters can be swapped out with no issue; new style fabrials with cracked gemstones cannot have a new gem swapped in that easily).

Edited by Moogle
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I listenned to the end of WoR again today, and came up with a convoluted explanation. When describing Szeth's honor blade Syl, said that weilding it takes much more stormlight than spern-bond surgebinding. Dangerous amounts of stormlight.

Why would too much stormlight be dangerous? Is there only a limited quantity that a human mind can handle? If too much is "processed" does a person lose control of what it might do to them?

Is it not reasonable to guess that soulcasting fabrials, who are like honor blades in that they enable a form of non nahel-bond surgebinding, also require excessive use of stormlight? Dangerous amounts of stormlight.

Szeth has not been described as having any sort of physical transformation similar to the Ardents using Soulcasters even though he is in possession of the Honor blade for few years.

Perhaps the "dangerous" part refers to Szeth's potential to cause harm. Or there may be some other side-effect of Stormlight that we don't know yet.

Edited by Twenty@20
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The difference is easily explained by the presence of spren.

 

"New style" fabrials, like spanreeds and heaters, all contain trapped spren in their gemstones. For example, a trapped flamespren will (probably, it's not explicitly confirmed) generate heat. (See: Navani's journal.)

 

"Old style" fabrials, aka Surgebinding fabrials, contain no spren in their gemstones (as proven by the fact that the cracked gems in Soulcasters can be swapped out with no issue; new style fabrials with cracked gemstones cannot have a new gem swapped in that easily).

 

So new style fabrials make use of the gem, that is spren, and old style fabrials make use of the metal, that is, stormlight?

 

That's cool.

Edited by Savanorn
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So new style fabrials make use of the gem, that is spren, and old style fabrials make use of the metal, that is, stormlight?

 

That's cool.

 

We aren't sure how Surgebinding fabrial work, exactly. All we really know is that they don't seem to use trapped spren, and seem to operate on entirely different principles than modern fabrials. (If they were the same as newer fabrials, the artifabrians would have replicated Soulcasters and there would be no shortage of them in Kharbranth.) The gem type used still might matter, for example, even if the gemstones can be swapped out with fresh ones.

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I think we really don't know the range of old style fabrial construction yet. 

So new style fabrials make use of the gem, that is spren, and old style fabrials make use of the metal, that is, stormlight?

 

That's cool.

  • Navani says that she doesn't understand Shardplate.
  • Dalinar describes Navani talking about conjoined gemstones when discussing the elevator at Urithiru.  
  • The Oathgate lock is impervious to Shardblade, suggesting that it is a spren, as does the circumscribing flash of the teleport area (which matches the description of Jasnah's arrival at the end). 
Edited by hoser
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Navani says that she doesn't understand Shardplate.
 
Which implies it's nothing like new style fabrials, because if they worked on similar principles they should be able to reverse engineer them. Shardplate has Invested metal, but newer fabrials just seem to have an Invested gem and regular metal.
 

Dalinar describes Navani talking about conjoined gemstones when discussing the elevator at Urithiru.  

 

Here is the passage:

Storms, this place was high. His ears had popped several times while riding to the top, using the fabrial lift that Navani had discovered. She spoke of counterweights and conjoined gemstones, sounding awed by the technology of the ancients. All he knew was that her discovery had let him avoid climbing up some hundred flights of steps.

 

Navani's theory has a major flaw, however: conjoined gemstones operating a lift would mean they would have to be charged. New style fabrials (conjoined gemstones for example) use trapped spren, so they couldn't just swap in new gems if that were the case. They'd have to charge the old ones. There was a highstorm which could have recharged them, but nothing that indicates Navani actually did that.

 

And nothing we know of indicates trapping spren in gems is anything but a recent invention; it certainly didn't exist at the time of the Radiants, or else they'd have left behind much more than just Surgebinding fabrials. (Heating fabrials are an obvious application of the technology that I'd have expected to see if the Radiants had it.) I suspect she's right on the counterweights, but wrong on conjoined fabrials. The lift using Gravity fabrials makes much more sense and is in line with the Radiant's powers.

 

The Oathgate lock is impervious to Shardblade, suggesting that it is a spren, as does the circumscribing flash of the teleport area (which matches the description of Jasnah's arrival at the end). 

 

The guards put on Shardblades which are used for practice are also 'impervious' to Shardblade. I don't feel this suggests they're spren, I feel this suggests they're Invested. Most Invested things block Shardblades, so far as we know.

 

The flash of the teleport area matches with it being a Transportation fabrial.

Edited by Moogle
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Which implies it's nothing like new style fabrials, because if they worked on similar principles they should be able to reverse engineer them. Shardplate has Invested metal, but newer fabrials just seem to have an Invested gem and regular metal.

Exactly my point.

 

Navani's theory has a major flaw, however: conjoined gemstones operating a lift would mean they would have to be charged. New style fabrials (conjoined gemstones for example) use trapped spren, so they couldn't just swap in new gems if that were the case. They'd have to charge the old ones. There was a highstorm which could have recharged them, but nothing that indicates Navani actually did that.

 

Unless you designed the gems to be in a structure that was exposed enough to be autocharged or some other solution. 

Navani may be babbling about what she knows, while not understanding the elevator.  She might also understand elements of its operation.  I don't see how you can be certain which is the case.  My point is that it may be using fabrials similar to the modern fabrials.  You have offered nothing of substance to refute it. 

 

And nothing we know of indicates trapping spren in gems is anything but a recent invention; it certainly didn't exist at the time of the Radiants, or else they'd have left behind much more than just Surgebinding fabrials. (Heating fabrials are an obvious application of the technology that I'd have expected to see if the Radiants had it.) I suspect she's right on the counterweights, but wrong on conjoined fabrials. The lift using Gravity fabrials makes much more sense and is in line with the Radiant's powers.

Given that the Radiants very deliberately passed on very few of the many fabrials they used, we cannot conclude anything about the ones that they did not pass on.  We do know that the few fabrials they did pass on (plate, Soulcaster, Oathgate) worked differently from each other, so it is quite possible that the ones they didn't pass on may work differently. 

The guards put on Shardblades which are used for practice are also 'impervious' to Shardblade. I don't feel this suggests they're spren, I feel this suggests they're Invested. Most Invested things block Shardblades, so far as we know.

Invested Kaladin does not block Shardblades very well.  Shardplate blocks Shardblades, but is not impervious to it.  Invested gems can be cut by normal swords, even.  Shardblades and the guards seem to be the only things that are impervious to Shardblades.  The guards may not even be invested.  The Oathgate lock even changes shape to accommodate the blade, so I don't think it is made of the same stuff as the guard.  The only thing we've seen so far that is malleable and and impervious to Shardblades are other Shardblade-spren. 

The flash of the teleport area matches with it being a Transportation fabrial.

As it is the only teleportation fabrial we have seen, I fail to see any point to this statement.  What is interesting is that when Jasnah teleports (presumably without a fabrial), something shiny circumscribes the space just before she appears.  I assume that this is Ivory, her spren.  When the Oathgate is used, a similar phenomenon occurs.  This might be a spren, as I have trouble imagining what else it could be. If a spren, it is presumably the spren of the Oathgate or the Radiantblade used to activate the Oathgate.  

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Unless you designed the gems to be in a structure that was exposed enough to be autocharged or some other solution. 

Navani may be babbling about what she knows, while not understanding the elevator.  She might also understand elements of its operation.  I don't see how you can be certain which is the case.  My point is that it may be using fabrials similar to the modern fabrials.  You have offered nothing of substance to refute it. 

 

I'm not certain it's the case, but we have nothing that implies the Radiants had non-Surgebinding fabrials except Navani's explanation of the lift using conjoined fabrials... and that explanation doesn't even make sense. How are conjoined fabrials supposed to generate lift with just counterweights? On the other hand, Gravity fabrials generate lift very easily. If I were designing an elevator, I know which of the two I'd use.

 

If the Radiants had the technology to create trapped spren fabrials, that shouldn't have been lost post-Recreance. Non-Radiant scholars existed who studied the Radiants, and trapped spren fabrials can be created by anyone. There were many, many complaints about the Radiants we've seen, but none of them are about withholding information like that. They're about tariffs, stopping fighting for them, attacking them, etc.

 

So... yes, it's possible that they had "modern" fabrials back then, but I find it unlikely. Perhaps my points are not very strong on their own, but in aggregate I think they make a strong argument.

 

Invested Kaladin does not block Shardblades very well.  Shardplate blocks Shardblades, but is not impervious to it.  Invested gems can be cut by normal swords, even.  Shardblades and the guards seem to be the only things that are impervious to Shardblades.  The guards may not even be invested.  The Oathgate lock even changes shape to accommodate the blade, so I don't think it is made of the same stuff as the guard.  The only thing we've seen so far that is malleable and and impervious to Shardblades are other Shardblade-spren. 

 

Zahel wouldn't block Shardblades very well, but Nightblood, given 1000 Breaths, does manage to block Shardblades very well. I'm not sure why, but just because Kaladin doesn't block Shardblades when Invested doesn't mean a whole lot. Perhaps it's to do with Investiture-density? And Invested items don't necessarily resist normal swords more than non-Invested items, so far as I know - the Davar Soulcaster got cut by a sword.

 

As to the guards, the guards do in fact mold themselves to the Shardblades:

“This isn’t the same at all,” Zahel said, waving down one of the ardents walking past. The man was carrying a Shardblade with metal guards over the sharp edges, one of the ones the king provided for training use. Zahel took the Shardblade from the ardent, holding it up. Kaladin nodded his chin at it. “What’s that on the Blade?”

“Nobody’s sure,” Zahel said, swiping with the Blade. “Fit it to the edges of a Blade, and it will adapt to the shape of the weapon and make it safely blunt . Off the weapons, they break surprisingly easily. Useless in a fight on their own. Perfect for training, though.”

 

Apparently, on the weapons, they don't break very easily. And they're apparently nearly impervious to Blades, since if they werent the Blade would cut through the guard as you whack other Blades with the guard.

 

As to the Oathgate, they never tried bashing it with a Shardblade, just pressing the Shardblade against it with some force. I believe Plate acts the same way - a Shardblade doesn't cut Plate unless you bash it very strongly. But I don't believe anyone's actually experimented with this on-screen.

 

As it is the only teleportation fabrial we have seen, I fail to see any point to this statement.  What is interesting is that when Jasnah teleports (presumably without a fabrial), something shiny circumscribes the space just before she appears.  I assume that this is Ivory, her spren.  When the Oathgate is used, a similar phenomenon occurs.  This might be a spren, as I have trouble imagining what else it could be. If a spren, it is presumably the spren of the Oathgate or the Radiantblade used to activate the Oathgate.  

 

Why would this have to be her spren? Syl doesn't glow like that when Kaladin uses his Surges, nor does Pattern or Wyndle or any other spren we've seen. When you Lash something with Stormlight, it starts to glow with it. I imagine when you use Transportation, the 'gateway' you create glows with Stormlight, and that's the glowing thing we see, but I don't think we can really say anything with certainty.

Edited by Moogle
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I think we really don't know the range of old style fabrial construction yet.

  • Navani says that she doesn't understand Shardplate.
  • Dalinar describes Navani talking about conjoined gemstones when discussing the elevator at Urithiru.
  • The Oathgate lock is impervious to Shardblade, suggesting that it is a spren, as does the circumscribing flash of the teleport area (which matches the description of Jasnah's arrival at the end).
Where does Navani say that she does not understand Shardplates? Can you give the quote? All I remember, is Navani telling Dalinar about the half-shard fabrials which mimic the Shardplate's ability to block Shardblade (WoK ch 22). However Navani does say to Dalinar that she doesn't know how shardblade are created.

“If this is true,” Navani said, sounding happy, “we’re back to knowing absolutely nothing about how Shardblades were crafted.”

WoR CH.67

I have a theory regarding shardplates which I mentioned on another post. What if shardplates are armour fabrials? The most important part is the Shardblade stopping technology which has been developed using "new age" augmenter fabrials. Other benefits like speed, agility and power are not yet developed. (Fabrial technology has seen most advances in recent years after the ancient technologies were lost ) Shardplates need Stormlight to work(see how Eholkars plate failed because the spheres were dun.) just like fabrials. And no spren screams on contact with Plates which means they are not formed by bonded spren. Edited by Twenty@20
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