Awakening Classification

[Windrunner]

I'm curious about what people think about this. On Scadrial the Metallic Arts can be classified into end-positive, end-neutral, and end-negative. It certainly seems that the other magic systems fall into these classifications as well. Surgebinding and AonDor both seem end-positive (although if people disagree with those I'll open another question here for them to vote on them). But where should Awakening fall? Breaths never seem to grow in energy which implies neutral. But it could also be argued that they bring in energy to accomplish their Commands so it could be positive. I don't really see any way to argue for negative, but I put that option up just in case someone has a convincing argument. I've also seen some people say that they don't believe the magic systems other then the Metallic Arts can be classified this way. I haven't been able to decide for myself so I though it'd be cool to have people vote on this and give arguments for why they think the way they do. Hopefully we can come to some consensus.

[callumke]

In some previous ramblings (here) I came to the conclusion that Awakening is end negative. Partially because Breaths are conserved, but also because Awakening does not draw on the "power of creation". Comparing this to the two known end-positive manifestations of Investiture, Allomancy and Aon Dor, we can see that these both draw upon this external power. Awakening does not.

Nightblood seems like an end-negative Investiture because he consumes Breath. But by this logic the act of being born with a Breath is an end-positive manifestation of Investiture on Nalthis. So I'm not sure. The AoL Ars Arcanum certainly seems to suggest that most manifestations of Investiture can be classified as end positive, neutral and negative. But we still don't know enough about the unified system of magic to label everything else. I am still confused about Foci; it is fairly well established how a focus works in regards to an end-positive Investiture, but not in regards to end neutral and end negative.

In conclusion... Awakening is probably end-neutral?

[ReaderAt2046]

I would say that Awakening is end-neutral in much the same way as Feruchemy. That is, i think awakening pairs an end-negative action (giving up Breath) with an end-positive (Breath gives Awakened object extra energy).

[Aethling]

Awakening should be negative because it takes a non-renewable power from someone and gives it to another. You do not have to pierce them with a spike and they do not die, but Sanderson has stated there are serious negative consequences for giving up your breath. Of course, I may be misremembering the way he classified them himself.

[discipleofhoid]

This depend what you mean by Awakening. If you mean Type III Biochromatic Manifestations that appears to be end positive. If you mean magic on Nalthis then it would be all three which isn't an option on the poll.

Type I entities(Returned) could be any of the three(but are probably end negative.)

Type II entities(Lifeless) are either end positive or end neutral.

Type III entities(Standard Awakening) can be argued to be end neutral but I would say that they are end-positive

Type IV entities(nightblood) are most likely end-negative.

Edited May 11, 2012 by discipleofhoid

[Windrunner]

I would say that Awakening is end-neutral in much the same way as Feruchemy. That is, i think awakening pairs an end-negative action (giving up Breath) with an end-positive (Breath gives Awakened object extra energy).

But it appears that the Breaths have to draw energy from somewhere. As long as they aren't in a Lifeless (where they can't keep the body fueled as well because it is breaking down) they will follow their Command forever apparently. That's unlimited free energy right there. That power has to be coming from somewhere. If you look at Allomancy you only have a little bit of power and it doesn't last forever. Even Breaths are more powerful they should still eventually run out of power. I tend to believe that they provide an individual connection to Endowment and the more connections you have the power they can provide to the Awakened object.

Awakening should be negative because it takes a non-renewable power from someone and gives it to another. You do not have to pierce them with a spike and they do not die, but Sanderson has stated there are serious negative consequences for giving up your breath. Of course, I may be misremembering the way he classified them himself.

Hemalurgy is classified as end-negative because power when the power is taken from one person and given to another, not all the power makes it there. In Awakening this doesn't seem to happen, there's no evidence that Breath power is lost.

This depend what you mean by Awakening. If you mean Type III Biochromatic Manifestations that appears to be end positive. If you mean magic on Nalthis then it would be all three which isn't an option on the poll.

I don't know that a magic system can be all three. It's one magic system so I don't think it can be chopped up like that. If you want though I can add this option to the poll for you.

[Satsuoni]

Ok, let us look at it carefully

First, classification. I think it is based on whether more energy goes to or from shard, when all energy paths are taken into account (over time, it seems). Then, in case of Allomancy, energy just goes from Shard into a person (destroying metal in the process) - that the simplest case, pure positive balance. In case of feruchemy, first, some energy goes in, then some energy comes out, which, summed over time, gives exactly zero (even when including "loss" when drawing very fast). In case of Hemalurgy, part of the energy goes somewhere, probably back to the shard. The energy in this case comes from natural end-positive process of birth, when new soul is created with pieces of shard in it. Strangely enough, that makes Hemalurgy an act of preservation, compared to natural death, where the energy just returns, but taken separately, process is end-negative.

Now, if we look at Awakening, we see several processes (mentioned above):

Birth - energy positive process that gives Breath

Return - an even more energy-positive process (the Breath is much more powerful), but with a drawback (next)

Breath consumption - energy negative process, apparently discrete (1 breath is consumed, regardless of its size). Extreme example is Nightblood, that devours Breaths by the hundreds, and never gives them back. He even does not really get more powerful from that- just hungrier.

Awakening - both lifeless and normal awakening. I think they are energy-neutral. However, the additional energy afterward may be explained in two ways: 1. There is a lot of energy in the Breath. It will run out one day, but may power stuff for centuries. 2. Breaths in object form a connection to the Shard. Awakening itself is energy-neutral, but command execution is energy positive. This is a little like Human Attributes in Hemalurgy -they give you constant increase of attribute, apparently forever, without consuming any fuel to feed it. I think I am leaning towards the second explanation, since simply holding Breaths gives you additional vitality and power.

Death - energy-negative. 99% of breath's energy just... dissipates, or returns to the shard (although some seems to be left over in the body, as in case of Arsteel)

[EDIT]

P.S. If you only look at human-driven process (awakening), it is neutral. All negative and positive aspects are natural, or side effects.

[Edit2]

Forgot one:

Healing by Returned. I'd say it is, by itself, energy-neutral, followed by energy negative process of reabsorbtion of Returned's breath into the Shard, same as if the Returned waited for a week. Or possibly by neutral conversion of unstable Breath into pure life energy.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Satsuoni

[Chaos]

Okay, about the whole “what is Awakening” thing, you guys are thinking way too hard about things. We are talking about the magic system, not how people get Breath or Spiritual power in the first place. That’s something else. Allomancy’s nature as “end-positive” has pretty much nothing to do with how the fragments of Preservation gets inside people so they can use Allomancy. Likewise, how Breath is obtained at birth is ultimately irrelevant to classifying Awakening’s status here.

Magic is about an action. It is a mortal using a Cognitive action to, presumably, affect a transition between the Realms (Spiritual to Physical, for example). And in order for a mortal to use these powers, they need a focus. In Awakening’s case, the focus are the Commands. So, anything that doesn’t involve Commands isn’t actually Awakening in the proper, strict sense.

I’m uncertain whether we can call the gaining of Breath at birth “end positive” or anything; the terms may not apply in any capacity for that. As far as we know, these classifications apply to magics. Anything else is definitely stretching it, in my opinion.

Anyway, with that rant over, what is Awakening? I’m fairly compelled by the argument of it not being end-positive, since it isn’t drawing upon an external source, so I’m leaning more to end-neutral. After all, in Feruchemy, you can draw upon parts of your Spiritual aspect, and it’s still end-neutral. Why couldn’t Awakening draw upon your Breath in the same way?

After all, for most Awakening, that Breath still exists. Except for Nightblood, and I’m not totally sure where that fits in.

We also have to accept that the Seventeenth Sharder who was talking about the different “ends” may be making arbitrary, in-universe distinctions that may not be as clear-cut as they are with the Metallic Arts.

[discipleofhoid]

I don't know that a magic system can be all three. It's one magic system so I don't think it can be chopped up like that. If you want though I can add this option to the poll for you.

I would agree with this statement but type III entities are definitively end positive and I can't find any way to define Nightblood as end positive. So either something big is going on behind the scene(almost for sure) or the magic system needs split to classify it.

How are others reconciling Nightblood with end neutral or end positive theories?

[Aradel]

This reminds me of trying to classify the platypus on a quiz when I was middle school. It seems to have aspects that fall into one classification or another but as a whole it's kind of fuzzy. I'm going to say end positive because I think Drabs are actually normal people (normal for us, not normal for nalthis) and anyone with breath at all has energy provided by Endowment. The magic is powered directly by the shard at minimal cost, similar to allomancy.

EDIT: So Chaos' post changed my mind, end-nuetral. More on this when I can put it into words.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Goradel's Nephew

[Satsuoni]

Well, Chaos hit it on the head: in the end, this classification is blurry and essentially useless, since it tells us nothing about Awakening itself, and the terminology is unique to that Ars Arcanum. Sazed, for example, named the same things (Allomancy, Hemalurgy and Feruchemy), for the same reasons (energy gain, loss and net zero) as being of Preservation, Ruin and Balance (human), correspondingly. Makes one wonder if combination of Allomancy and Hemalurgy (burning spikes made out of yourself, it is possible, but weird) would be positive or negative, though..

[Windrunner]

I don't know that you can say the terminology is useless. I'm not sure you'd develop groupings like these for one specific world. If these terms couldn't be used Cosmere-wide then why would they be necessary in the first place? You don't typically create categories that only contain one item, but I could be wrong.

I'm still standing by my net-positive beliefs. There has never been any indication that Breaths get weaker after powering something so I believe that the power has to come from somewhere. It makes sense to me that they all bring a small connection to Endowment's power. And Nightblood is tough. The only thing I can think of is that instead of drawing power from through the Breaths, it uses the power that the Breaths themselves contain so they are expended and return eventually to Endowment's power. But then that gets us into the nature of "corrupted Breaths" and their connection to Shardblades.

[Satsuoni]

Hm. Well, you see, if you judge like that, you can say that hemalurgy is end-positive too, since it is the closest equivalent of giving breaths away, the main difference being that the pieces of spirit web need physical carrier and can't be attached (yet) to non-living objects. For example, a blessing of potency about doubles the strength and endurance of kandra, while leaving energy consumption the same. With enough blessings, the kandra will be able to produce more energy that it consumes, drawing purely on the strength of preservation. There are also issues with Feruchemy and energy conservation (filling/drawing from ironminds at different speeds). That is why the additional connection seems more or less irrelevant for the classification here.

Also, I still think Nightblood does the same thing to Breaths as the Returned do, only much faster. Also, he's got plenty of connection (1000 breaths) already, so he shouldn't need to draw more (certainly not at the increasing rate), so well.. Nightblood is strange.

[Aradel]

I think we might be able to define end-( ) classifications as adding or subtracting to the total energy (physical, thermal, kinetic, and otherwise) in a world.

Allomancy is end-positive because shardic energy is converted and added to Scadrial in various ways.

Feruchemy is end-nuetral because shardic energy only effects a transfer of in-world energy through time. The Shardic energy is not actually added to the Scadrial's total.

Hemalurgy is end-negative because shardic energy transfers a reduced form of energy (in the form of a patch of spritweb) between subjects. In world energy is lost even if we don't yet know where it goes.

In awakening, breaths are shardic energy added to Nalthis' energy, but I'm not sure whether awakening consumes breaths slightly or provides a spiritual connection to Endowment's energy. Going off what information we have, I'm going to call awakening an Active System as opposed to a Closed System because energy is transfered back and forth between the world and the shard, rather than moving in one direction.

[Windrunner]

I really want to believe that Awakening is end-neutral. But the lack of evidence that Breaths deteriorate over time is what disturbs me. You think that Vasher, who has been Awakening for 300 years or so, would have noticed that his Breaths got weaker over time and mentioned it or something. I never saw so much as a hint that they deteriorate anywhere, which seems to me at least, something that Brandon would have mentioned at some point. So I've concluded that they don't deteriorate until presented with further evidence from Nightblood or someone with a quote I've forgotten. (A highly likely possibility there) But I can't understand why Breaths seemingly have no power source but don't get any weaker. Does anyone have any ideas there? Because I'm stuck with end-positive until I can figure out why.

[Satsuoni]

Well, IMO, Breaths work like souls, or parts thereof. As I have noted above, the Hemalurgic transfer of strength, etc, also does not seem to decay while inside the host, so it works by the same principle.

This principle may be one of the 2 :

1. The soul or Breath draws energy from the Shard. This draw is constant, and does not count for classification purposes.

2. The soul and/or Breath are part of the Shard, separated like the Pits were separated from Ruin and human spirits from Preservation. They recycle the limited amount of energy available to them like the shard itself does, and like the Pits recycled atium spent for burning. Then, there is only so much you can do with the Breath, but it will never go out completely, and will soon regenerate. (Also, moving something requires a very small amount of energy compared to, say, mass change, so the fact that the energy is spent before being recycled is not very apparent)

[ReaderAt2046]

I really want to believe that Awakening is end-neutral. But the lack of evidence that Breaths deteriorate over time is what disturbs me. You think that Vasher, who has been Awakening for 300 years or so, would have noticed that his Breaths got weaker over time and mentioned it or something. I never saw so much as a hint that they deteriorate anywhere, which seems to me at least, something that Brandon would have mentioned at some point. So I've concluded that they don't deteriorate until presented with further evidence from Nightblood or someone with a quote I've forgotten. (A highly likely possibility there) But I can't understand why Breaths seemingly have no power source but don't get any weaker. Does anyone have any ideas there? Because I'm stuck with end-positive until I can figure out why.

It seems to me that if breaths don't decay, that makes them end-neutral. After all, Feruchemy doesn't decay, and we know it's end-neutral.

[Windrunner]

Well, IMO, Breaths work like souls, or parts thereof. As I have noted above, the Hemalurgic transfer of strength, etc, also does not seem to decay while inside the host, so it works by the same principle.

This principle may be one of the 2 :

1. The soul or Breath draws energy from the Shard. This draw is constant, and does not count for classification purposes.

2. The soul and/or Breath are part of the Shard, separated like the Pits were separated from Ruin and human spirits from Preservation. They recycle the limited amount of energy available to them like the shard itself does, and like the Pits recycled atium spent for burning. Then, there is only so much you can do with the Breath, but it will never go out completely, and will soon regenerate. (Also, moving something requires a very small amount of energy compared to, say, mass change, so the fact that the energy is spent before being recycled is not very apparent)

So your point is that the energy of Breath is recycled after it is expended? But that would mean that if you Awakened something then withdrew the power and then Awakened something else, the Breath would be weaker for a while, which hasn't seemed to have been the case. Like Vasher Awakening those sets of clothes to fight for him. That would have taken a massive amount of energy to make those clothes strong and intelligent enough to fight. Surely that would have made the Breaths weak enough for Vasher to remark on the curiosity?

The fact of the matter is Vasher never mentions Breath appearing weaker after an Awakening, something I think he would have noticed after 300 years of Awakening. In fact it would have been a useful tip to pass onto a novice like Vivenna. The only time we've actually seen a Breath become weaker is when Vasher had that little girl hide her memories somehow, and then it didn't seem to regenerate, or at least Vivenna didn't mention it. (I'll admit we didn't see much of the girl after that). I'd thought about this a bit before and I do agree with you that it is the most likey way that Awakening could be described as end-neutral.

It seems to me that if breaths don't decay, that makes them end-neutral. After all, Feruchemy doesn't decay, and we know it's end-neutral.

But then where is the power coming from? In Feruchemy the reserves may not decay but they are also expended when the power is tapped. Breath is never shown as being weaker after an Awakening except in the unusual example I mentioned above.

[Satsuoni]

Well, there might be a few explanations as to why it is not noticed.

1. The breaths do provide a connection. The energy transferred over it is the same as supplied originally to the human, so it is not counted.

2. Recycling for Breath/soul is very fast, the energy flowing into it as it is expended.

3. There is more energy in the breath than you think. There is, for example, enough energy stored in the Feruchemist's goldmind to actually create matter from nothing (regrowing limbs, etc, or, in the case of Miles, "constantly renewing the body", oxygen and nutrition included. Compared to that, a moving cloth takes barely any energy, and as for intelligence, it may borrow some from the Awakener (there is a link between Awakener and an Awakened object, just as there appears a link between a person and Nightblood once Nightblood feeds of him), or, well... there are a lot of breaths needed to awaken Cloth.

The girl apparently gave up part of he breath with the memory, somehow, to Vasher. Wonder if Vasher got the memories, too, and now recalls being an abused girl...

[Aradel]

I kind of thought breaths were artificial spiritwebs.

It would explain why objects gain intellegence when awakend. Gaining a breath would grant a slightly increased connection to Endowment that would allow awakened object to pull the energy they need to move from the shard itself. This is why awakening requires a metric butload of breaths to awaken something combat-worthy outside of lifeless. They need to pull a bunch of energy to move around, and need a strong connection.

Lifeless consume that single breath to restore their own spiritweb, which is why that breath is lost forever. The restored spiritweb (which isn't attached to the original soul and doesn't stop the corpse from being physically dead.) Can draw energy from endowment as nessesary.

So yeah, artificial spiritwebs. It's a bit like hemalurgy, only without the mess.

[aray171717]

personally i think awakening should be classified as both end negative and end neutral. with the case of humans no power is lost because breath can be recalled. excluding of course lifeless. on the other hand in the case of returned they can still use awakening but have to feed off other breaths to sustain themselves.

there see neutral and negative. but classified differently according to the user.

[ReaderAt2046]

But then where is the power coming from? In Feruchemy the reserves may not decay but they are also expended when the power is tapped. Breath is never shown as being weaker after an Awakening except in the unusual example I mentioned above.

The power comes from the diminution of the Awakener's spiritual energy.

[Windrunner]

Then the more they used Awakening the weaker their spiritual aspect would become. There's been no indication that if some of the power of your spiritual aspect is expended that the power will recover, evidence being that people who survive getting a power stolen from them through Hemalurgy will never recover that power or the portions of their personality lost with it. So eventually, since spiritual energy brings sentience, people who Awaken would lose their ability to think and become animals, which clearly hasn't been shown in Warbreaker. I see power being channeled through a spiritual aspect as different from being channeled from a spiritual aspect.

[ReaderAt2046]

Then the more they used Awakening the weaker their spiritual aspect would become. There's been no indication that if some of the power of your spiritual aspect is expended that the power will recover, evidence being that people who survive getting a power stolen from them through Hemalurgy will never recover that power or the portions of their personality lost with it. So eventually, since spiritual energy brings sentience, people who Awaken would lose their ability to think and become animals, which clearly hasn't been shown in Warbreaker. I see power being channeled through a spiritual aspect as different from being channeled from a spiritual aspect.

You're sort of right and sort of not. You're right that using Awakening does diminish the Awakener's spiritual aspect, but:

1. They can regain the lost spiritual energy by taking it back from whatever they Awakened.

2. Once you hit the Drab level, you can't give up any more spiritual energy, so you never reach the animal level.

[Windrunner]

1. They can regain the lost spiritual energy by taking it back from whatever they Awakened.

2. Once you hit the Drab level, you can't give up any more spiritual energy, so you never reach the animal level.

The way you phrased your point originally made it sound to me like you believed that the spiritual aspect of the person was what fueled the Awakening as in the energy from the Shard inside of them. Like if someone using Allomancy was burning away their spark of Preservation. So I wasn't contesting any of these but a different point I thought you were making.