Oo, Heaven is a Place on Earth: Finding The Tranquiline Halls

[Oudeis]

Couldn't find this anywhere else, but my apologies if I just wasn't looking hard enough.

 

I don't think the Tranquiline Halls are a different place than Roshar. I think they're an actual spot. I think that between Desolations they're indistinguishable.

 

Vorinism, and the Devotaries, teach about the Tranquiline Halls. They offer Callings and Glories and promise that if you follow them, after death you'll be sent to the Tranquiline Halls to fight.

 

Warriors will become God-like warriors, and will be able to fight with superlative skill.

 

Farmers will be able to grow vast spiritual crops with a wave of their hand.

 

... Does that last one sound familiar to anyone else? The Progression Surge, for example?

 

I believe that before the Hierocracy, this whole idea was a way to try to farm Knights Radiant. I think they encouraged people to embody the virtues that the spren would reward with a bond (the Glories), and that if you succeeded, you'd become a Radiant, with various powers, not necessarily destructive ones. A Truthwatcher would be able to feed a starving village by growing crops.

 

I think that between the Radiants looking like betrayors, and the hierocracy changing a lot of important factual details, "you'll get these powers once you attract a spren" became "you'll get these powers once you die" and "go to this spot and fight the Voidbringers" became "go to Heaven and fight the Voidbringers".

 

Just a hypothesis. Largely speculation, I freely admit.

 

In such a case, I wonder if the ardents used to have a specific, related purpose? Where they scholars and wise men, there to help people internalize the Glories until they accepted that purpose into their own life and were able to attract a spren? Did they train people in the skills of a Knight, even before the Bond, so that they'd have a leg up once they had powers to complement their training?

 

Or am I just grasping at straws and coincidence?

[hoser]

Why look for a place where nothing ever happens?

 

This seems like a very creative and interesting idea. 

 

There is evidence for a migration in the books.

• Vorin Mythology
• Listener Mythology
• References to the listeners as ancient ones
• Shinovar's earthlike appearance
• The way the apparent "native" fauna are more adapted to the spren.  Horses, chickens and humans are less so. 
• The Heralds being compelled to return to Braize (an actual planet) as part of the Oathpact. 

That leaves a lot to be explained away.  Vorinism seems to post-date the Heralds and even the Knights in some regards, dominating at a time when actual understanding seems to have been in short supply. 

 

OTOH, WOB has Adonalsium investing Roshar first, then H&C arriving, then Odium.  The Tranquilline Halls could also be pre-Odium Roshar and Odium's arrival could have somehow been the casting out. 

 

Edit: added other hand

Edited October 23, 2014 by hoser

[Kal973]

The listeners seem to be the native people of Roshar. 

Couldn't the Tranquilline Halls be another planet ? Humans could have been implanted on Roshar after an exile they don't remember anymore ?

 

Otherwise, Roshar may have changed after a big cataclysm. The fauna and flora remembers me of the seabed. The entire planet could have been covered by the sea and then the continent of Roshar could have emerged from the sea. Shinnovar would have been the highest spot of the  mountains pre-cataclysm and the only spot that was not covered by the sea, that's why the specific fauna and flora we can see there  was not destroyed. Humans could have flee Roshar before the cataclysm and come back centuries later to find a new form of sentient life (the listeners) was already living on the planet.

It seems that the desolations cause a great deal of destruction, and the complete collapse of civilisation when they occur.

Maybe the cataclysm that lead Roshar to be covered by the sea was a desolation. A big one. And by then humans had developped enough science to travel through space and find shelter on another planet they don't remember anymore because another desolation occured after their come back on Roshar, erasing their memories of their journey, of their technology...    

[Twenty@20]

@ Outis. Your theory that heaven is a place on Earth( I think you meant Roshar) is very similar to Jasnah's theory that God does not exist. Both theories can be accepted on own world. But unfortunately they would not work on Roshar because the entire back story of Adonalsium, Yolen, Honor, Cultivation, Odium.

[Oudeis]

@20: Not sure what you're getting at. Why does the existence of Adonalsium mean that this land, know to Rosharans as the Tranquiline Halls, cannot be a physical location on Roshar?

 

And it's not my theory. It's Belinda Carlisle's.

 

@Kal: A plausible scenario. Entirely likely. My own theory, which is an admitted leap, is that Roshar was a planet, touched by Adonalsium. We know from the "secret of the map" that the shape of Roshar is what's known as a "Julia Set"; I believe this means that it was built up by crem, though if someone understands it better, please feel free to explain.

 

So then here's my theory. The Highstorm always existed, creating Roshar via crem deposits. Adonalsium existed, and somehow the listeners (and maybe the Aimians) came into being. Sometime thereafter, the Shattering occurred. Honor and Cultivation came to Roshar, perhaps bringing Humans with them. Then Odium showed up, took over the listeners, and waged war and Desolation. Cultivation was somehow able to use her influence to balance this out, and free the listeners. And then present day.

 

I'm not sure the specific order of some of these events, or what it implies. It is flagrant conjecture, based on hunches and scattered words of brandon. Just throwing it out there to see how it weathers the Highstorm of public opinion.

[Twenty@20]

@ Outis to clarify, I was only referring to a broad consensus in the forums about Tranquiline Halls being off planet.

I am more interested in drawing parallels between the OP theory and Jasnah's theory. Both strike at the heart of Vorin ideology. But ironically both turn out to be untrue(in the case of the OP theory I admittedly presumed it will prove to be untrue). And even greater irony is that both theories may find some relevance in our world.

Edited October 24, 2014 by Twenty@20

[Oudeis]

Twenty, I'm still lost. Why does Adonalsium prove that the Tranquiline Halls must be off Roshar? Are you simply referring to the fact that we know "off Roshar" is an option, and that this somehow makes it more likely?

 

To re-iterate support for my theory:

 

Vorinism teaches that you must follow one of the Glories of the Almighty, and if you do, you will be rewarded after death by gaining abilities, such as the power to make a field of crops grow instantly.

 

We, the readers, know that if you exemplify an Ideal, you will bond a Spren and gain abilities, such as the power to make a field of crops grow instantly. No dying necessary (though you have to go through some sort of emotional trauma).

 

It is my contention that when the Radiants became a bad thing, the Hierocracy adjusted the doctrine so that rather than gaining the powers... ever, you gain them when you die. Jam tomorrow, like most religions. Never ever jam today.

 

Apart from the fact that you have to die to go there, there's not a ton of in-world evidence supporting the theory that the Tranquiline Halls cannot be a place on Roshar. No one bothers looking because they assume it's either "heaven" or a myth.

 

Further evidence:

 

The legend goes that humans live in harmony in the Tranquiline Halls. Then, everything changed when the Voidbringers attacked.

 

... Well, we know, from what we know of Adonalsium, that Honor and Cultivation first came to Roshar. We know Odium showed up only thereafter, to bother them and their humans. It's also now believed on Roshar, and at least considered on the Fora, that the Voidbringers are the listeners.

 

I know the common theory is that the Tranquiline Halls represent Yolen and that the banishment is the event where Adonalsium shattered and Honor and Cultivation took a bunch of humans from Yolen to Roshar. Except... that doesn't fit the story. The listeners would have already needed to be in their voidforms (despite Odium having chosen a different planet in the system for his own), leave Roshar for Yolen, attack some humans, the humans then for some reason decide to flee to the Voidbringers own planet, the Voidbringers follow again, and Honor, Cultivation and Odium arrive at the planet at roughly the same time. In fact, Odium would have had to go there first, in order to gather his Voidbringers. There's a lot in this which directly contradicts WoB.

 

The following is known, or at least widely suspected:

 

Honor and Cultivation came to Roshar first.

 

The Voidbringers are of Odium.

 

The Voidbringers are what drove humans from the Tranquiline Halls.

 

Since Honor and Cultivation were on Roshar first, then Odium shows up, it seems to follow that if "Odium shows up" happened at the Tranquiline Halls, they must be a place on Roshar.

 

As I said, just speculation.

[Twenty@20]

I will clarify again. In my initial post I was not trying to offer reasons for Tranquiline halls not being on Roshar. I was only referring to the theory that is prevalent that T Halls are Roshar's equivalent of our Heaven and that it is another planet in the cosmere. I am not discussing the merit or demerits of the two theories. My initial post was sloppily written and I regret the confusion.

My only interest in the topic was that if in the future T Halls are a found to be real and on another planet then Roshar will have both a proven God and a proven Heaven. And the irony is that in our world we cannot definitely prove either.

[Oudeis]

Ah. Well, as Hoid would likely point out, they'll be a real "God" and a real "heaven". More a matter that actual things get deified, rather than discovering a literal God or a literal heaven.

 

Sorry for the confusion.

[hoser]

@Outis I have been confused, but I am starting to understand.  I think you have two theories.

Twenty,... my theory:

 

Vorinism teaches that you must follow one of the Glories of the Almighty, and if you do, you will be rewarded after death by gaining abilities, such as the power to make a field of crops grow instantly.

 

We, the readers, know that if you exemplify an Ideal, you will bond a Spren and gain abilities, such as the power to make a field of crops grow instantly. No dying necessary (though you have to go through some sort of emotional trauma).

 

It is my contention that when the Radiants became a bad thing, the Hierocracy adjusted the doctrine so that rather than gaining the powers... ever, you gain them when you die. Jam tomorrow, like most religions. Never ever jam today.

This theory is very interesting, and, to me, plausible. 

 

I know the common theory is that the Tranquiline Halls represent Yolen and that the banishment is the event where Adonalsium shattered and Honor and Cultivation took a bunch of humans from Yolen to Roshar.

I have never seen this theory and I have haunted this forum for quite a while.  I would say the commonest theory was that the Tranquiline Halls were once Braize, but I don't think there is anything remotely approaching a consensus.  As far as I can tell, most people don't know enough to have a clear opinion. 

 

Since Honor and Cultivation were on Roshar first, then Odium shows up, it seems to follow that if "Odium shows up" happened at the Tranquiline Halls, they must be a place on Roshar.

This is what I see as a separate and independent theory.  Your Vorinism theory could work independently of whether humanity emigrated from off planet before the Desolations started on Roshar.    

 

Odium is currently "on" Braize (sp?) (WoB, I believe), a planet in the Rosharian system identified in Vorin Mythology as Damnation and possibly where the Heralds are tortured (see "Prelude to the Stormlight Archive": hooks, fires, searing, driving to the bone, centuries, millennia, blah, blah, blah).  I would say that "showing up" can be off-planet, but in-system.   There are a number of possibilities:

• Tranquiline Halls are in another system entirely that H&C were at before, then Odium chased them to Roshar.
• Tranqilline Halls were on another planet in the Rosharian system: Braize or the third one.
• Tranquiline Halls are on a non-planetary entity in the Rosharian system (Roshar has 3 moons, for example)
• Tranquiliine Halls are on Roshar.

I fail to see how the Tranquiline Halls "must be a place on Roshar."  IMO, linking this "Roshar is the Tranquiline Halls theory" with what I see as your "Vorinism theory" distracts me from your very interesting and well presented concepts about the development of Vorinism. 

[Oudeis]

But I think you're missing one key. I will try to find the WoB on the subject (and I will admit that until I find it, in case it's less slam-dunk than I think it is, my theory is unsubstantiated).

 

I'm very certain that there's a WoB out there saying that Honor and Cultivation had at least a period of time on Roshar before Odium showed up. While I'll admit it could be a matter "H&C + humans were on one planet, then got chased off, then lived in harmony for a while on another planet, THEN Odium showed up" ... I dunno, that feels sorta contrived? Why the pause? Why didn't Odium chase right away, instead of waiting a long enough period for it to be a substantive epoch? I grant, however, that it's a viable possibility.

 

However, if I'm correct and Honor and Cultivation, plus their humans, lived on Roshar in peace for a while before Odium's attack... then it follows that, since it seems likely that the first attack happened at the Tranquiline Halls, it happened on Roshar.

 

Your points are valid, and I'm less sure than I was previously. I'm going to keep it as my own pet theory, however. And I will be back once I find that WoB. I'll just google Theoryland for Cultivation, Honor, Odium, Roshar. How many hits could that possibly be?

 

::is never heard from again, lost under a pile of search results::

[hoser]

But I think you're missing one key. I will try to find the WoB on the subject ...

I totally agree that there is WoB that H&C were on Roshar before Odium.  

 

Even so, there are a number of explanations of Vorin mythology that include, but are not limited to the Tranquiline Halls being pre-odium Roshar. 

 

My point is that the accuracy of this theory is completely independent of your explanation of Vorin practices.  

Edited October 24, 2014 by hoser

[Oudeis]

Well, thank you at least for thinking my other half of the theory is interesting! Maybe I'll wait a few months until people have forgotten this thread and then post just that.

 

Regardless, I got to use the title of an 80's song as a pun-title of a hypothesis. I REGRET NOTHING!

[Vaspin]

A few questions before I make any comments about this:

 

1) Are you saying Vorinism is somewhat involved in the making of Radiants?

 

2) What is your understanding of the Radiants discarding their shards and abandoning mankind?

 

3) What's the significance of the story in Vorinism of the people being chased from the Tranquiline Halls and to Roshar, Braize, and the Desolations? This is more about how those three things work in tandem with each other

 

4) Do you know there are other planets, besides Braize, in the same system as Roshar?

 

Your theory is a novel one, but it's missing a lot of information given in the books and WoB. Because Brandon alludes more than once to Roshar being the current place the conflict is taking place. 

[Oudeis]

1. Basically, yes. I believe that before it was a religion, it was a way of life. I believe it was once understood that living your life by certain ideals could potentially give you magic powers. I believe there was an organization which traveled the land, trying to counsel people in how to live these ideals (as Teft was helping Kaladin, as Shallan had the book) so they could speak the Ideals and "level-up" as a Knight Radiant. I think that after the Recreance, over the millenia, it changed from a way of life and a means to get magical power into a religion. The Recreance was obviously a blow to the structure, but apparently not a fatal one, and it adapted into a religion and survived.

 

2. I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you asking me how I think it mechanically worked? Are you asking me why I think they did it?

 

3. I'm not certain I understand what you are saying here. When you say "these three things" you mean, "The vorin story about being kicked out of the Tranquiline Halls," "The planet Braize," and "The Desolations?" I'm not certain that "in tandem" is how I would describe their interactions, since they are simply three aspects of a large and complex society, but I will try to answer.

 

a. The story of being forced out of the Tranquiline Halls. It's my belief that when Humans first came to Roshar, they lived in a great land. A land suited to their existence, a land protected from the worst of the highstorms, a land of fertile fields and chickens. Basically I assume they started in Shin Kak Nish. Then I think the Voidbringers came. I think they attacked the human centers there, and refugees spread out all across Roshar. As Vorinism turned from "how to become a Radiant" to a religion, in classic 'jam tomorrow' philosophy your reward must come after death, so instead of being sent from your home to a specific location to fight, it turned into "once you die, you will go to the Tranquiline Halls," which required translating the idea of the Halls to a nebulous Heaven, a place which could not be traveled to on Roshar.

 

b. Braize is a planet in the system, known as Damnation. We suspect Odium is Invested there and it's likely the place the Heralds go to, in order to be tortured endlessly for centuries between Desolations. In Vorinism, it occupies the "Hell" archetype in opposition to the "Heaven" of the Tranquiline Halls.

 

c. The Desolations are poorly understood. Odium's forces, including Voidbringers (which may be listeners in voidforms) and the Ten Deaths such as Thunderclasts and Midnight Essence, show up to attack people, with the presumed intent to kill everyone. Fighting happens, and humans have so far won every Desolation. Presumably, the first one is what forced humans out of the Tranquiline Halls, and out onto the rest of Highstorm-ravaged Roshar. As to what brings about a Desolation, when one technically begins and ends, how fighting them advances the goals of either Honor, Cultivation or Odium, or all the rest of it... I'm afraid your guess is as good as mine.

 

4. Yes. I know there are three habitable planets in the solar system; Braize, Ashyn and Roshar. I believe we do not have confirmed WoB on whether there are other, uninhabitable planets.

 

As for your final thought, that's more-or-less exactly the point I'm making. Vorinism claims that the fight happened first in the Tranquiline Halls, then was all across Roshar, and then when the Heralds won the Last Desolation, they chased the Voidbringers "somewhere else" to the Tranquiline halls, and Roshar is now safe from further Desolations. We, the readers, know many of these facts are false. We know that the Last Desolation was never going to be the last one, we know Roshar is still in jeopardy, we know the Heralds did not "take the fight to the Tranquiline Halls." I'm proposing that Vorinism is also incorrect in their assumption that the Tranquiline Halls cannot be one specific place on Roshar.

[Savanorn]

Twenty, I'm still lost. Why does Adonalsium prove that the Tranquiline Halls must be off Roshar? Are you simply referring to the fact that we know "off Roshar" is an option, and that this somehow makes it more likely?

 

To re-iterate support for my theory:

 

Vorinism teaches that you must follow one of the Glories of the Almighty, and if you do, you will be rewarded after death by gaining abilities, such as the power to make a field of crops grow instantly.

 

We, the readers, know that if you exemplify an Ideal, you will bond a Spren and gain abilities, such as the power to make a field of crops grow instantly. No dying necessary (though you have to go through some sort of emotional trauma).

 

It is my contention that when the Radiants became a bad thing, the Hierocracy adjusted the doctrine so that rather than gaining the powers... ever, you gain them when you die. Jam tomorrow, like most religions. Never ever jam today.

 

Apart from the fact that you have to die to go there, there's not a ton of in-world evidence supporting the theory that the Tranquiline Halls cannot be a place on Roshar. No one bothers looking because they assume it's either "heaven" or a myth.

 

Further evidence:

 

The legend goes that humans live in harmony in the Tranquiline Halls. Then, everything changed when the Voidbringers attacked.

 

 

Odium = Mark Hamil. 100% confirmed. 

[Mckeedee123]

I'm pretty sure that the tranquilline halls are actually Yolen. After all, isn't it supposed to be the source of all humans in the Cosmere? Looking at it in that context, the whole "history of humanity" as defined by Vorinism, begins to fall into place.

[Oudeis]

I'm pretty sure that the tranquilline halls are actually Yolen. After all, isn't it supposed to be the source of all humans in the Cosmere? Looking at it in that context, the whole "history of humanity" as defined by Vorinism, begins to fall into place.

 

That is the obvious connection, yes. Do you have any support for the theory?

[Shardcellist]

a. The story of being forced out of the Tranquiline Halls. It's my belief that when Humans first came to Roshar, they lived in a great land. A land suited to their existence, a land protected from the worst of the highstorms, a land of fertile fields and chickens. Basically I assume they started in Shin Kak Nish. Then I think the Voidbringers came. I think they attacked the human centers there, and refugees spread out all across Roshar. As Vorinism turned from "how to become a Radiant" to a religion, in classic 'jam tomorrow' philosophy your reward must come after death, so instead of being sent from your home to a specific location to fight, it turned into "once you die, you will go to the Tranquiline Halls," which required translating the idea of the Halls to a nebulous Heaven, a place which could not be traveled to on Roshar.

 

Just jumping in with a little point, not to say either way:

 

 

THE EVERSTORM. IT IS A NEW THING, BUT OLD OF DESIGN. IT ROUNDS THE WORLD NOW, AND CARRIES WITH IT HIS SPREN.

 

This is how the Stormfather put it - old of design. And, the Everstorm seems specifically targeted at Shinovar.

[WeiryWriter]

4. Yes. I know there are three habitable planets in the solar system; Braize, Ashyn and Roshar. I believe we do not have confirmed WoB on whether there are other, uninhabitable planets.

 

Here ya go!

 

 

Q:  There are three planets in the system, are they all in the habitable zone? At least two of them must be …

Q2(I think this was NutiketAiel?). When you say three, is it actually three in the solar system, or is it three-?

A:  There are three planets with sentient beings on them.

Q:  There are more than three planets in the solar system?

A:  There are. With non-sentient beings. There are three planets of importance.  So I didn't give you very much, you already knew … here's something. You may have heard a reading from one of those planets today.

 

(source)

[Oudeis]

This is how the Stormfather put it - old of design. And, the Everstorm seems specifically targeted at Shinovar.

How do you mean?

[Slater]

Shinovar has the other Honorblades, and it seems to know things the rest of the world does not. Really seems like the Everstorm is at least partially meant to do as much damage to them as actually possible.

[Moogle]

I'm not sure if the Everstorm is meant to do as much damage to them as possible as it is just meant to do damage everywhere. All the usual defenses assume a storm going from the east to west - the Everstorm is going to cause damage pretty much everywhere. Shinovar in particular will be hit hard, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the Everstorm was designed to single out Shinovar in particular. It could just be a happy accident, as it were.

 

Also an issue: the mountains which protect Shinovar from the highstorm in the first place would block the Everstorm. Perhaps the Everstorm will travel northeast from the southwest part of the continent to avoid that, in which case the northwestern part of Shinovar should still be relatively safe.

[Oudeis]

It's technically and specifically the Misted Mountains that block the Highstorm; in point of fact, don't we hear at some point that Aimia isn't as protected as Shinovar is, which you'd think they would be if the second set of mountains acted as a break. We don't know that those second mountains are as high, or perhaps they've got a bizarrely specific series of bluffs that help, or for all we know they have Cultivation's Shardpool and that's why the mountains are so special. Also, while the mountains surely help, the fact that the storm is on its last legs crossing the continent has to be a big factor. However well the western mountains stop the Everstorm, it won't stop one fresh off the sea the way the Misted Mountains stop a Highstorm that's almost done anyway.

 

Hrm. Rysn's drooling grass is about to become an endangered species.

 

 

Shinovar has the other Honorblades, and it seems to know things the rest of the world does not. Really seems like the Everstorm is at least partially meant to do as much damage to them as actually possible.

 

The Everstorm is "old of design". Why would Shinovar have been targetted all that long ago?

 

I mean... in a broader sense, the way Moogle described, I guess you're right? In that the phrase "old of design" implies it was, in fact, specifically designed, the whole thing was designed to harm a continent adapted to Highstorms. This includes the fact that it will smash Kharbranth deep into its own lait, just like it will do to Hearthstone, and every leeward-facing house on the continent. It also was designed to attack the entirety of the western half of the continent, which has always had lighter Highstorms, with a fresh-off-the-sea storm. By that logic, the fact that Shinovar has been most protected from Highstorms implies it will most specifically be targetted by the Everstorm, yes. Not because of anything Shinovar has done or really for any specific reason, just because it's the place that hasn't suffered from the Highstorms.