Oudeis Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 This topic was brought up in the Way of Kings thread, but I wanted to update it a bit for what we learn in Words of Radiance. In the upper left, you can clearly see the Last Clap happening. Any thoughts on the other illustrations? The weird levitating guy with the swordsman making that... interesting swing at him in the upper right? Below that, sword vs sword and sword versus spear combat? Is the skull simply a representation of the fact that men die in war? Who's the dude with two swords (they look like swords to me, not Shardblades) and why does he have two swords? Just to be more symmetrical? Why is everyone standing in such awkward looking poses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 The awkward poses at least, I think match older art from Europe - it's how people thought other people look when you capture them mid-motion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiver Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 I think Argent has the right of it. Looking up sword stances brings up this site, and the sword stance artwork reminds me a lot of those drawings. Also... was that illustration in Way of Kings? I admit, the "Last Clap" kind of bugged me a little in Words of Radiance, but if it was foreshadowed in the first book, then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis Posted October 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 Yes, the illustration was in Way of Kings. It was just before Chapter 16: Cocoons. I was surprised on this most recent re-read to see that illustration, and to realize it's possible he planted even this seed this long ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 The top right picture is the most interesting to me... The bottom two seem like normal sparing/war art and as others have said are reminiscent of Medieval Europe art. The Last Clap seems to be a known quantity to the Alethi elite anyway (since a worldhopper only arrived in the last 15 years or so knows about it enough to describe it to Kaladin), so it's not unknown. To me the interesting part related to it is that thus far we have only seen Knights Radiants (at some stage of development) perform the maneuver. But the top right... in this world, that has to be a depiction of a Windrunner. My logic here, the obvious: he is floating in mid-air. Therefore he's using a basic lashing to balance himself up and down to hang like Kaladin does at different points. It also looks like based on the slightly surprise?/Confused? look on the swordsman's face, that the sword is being pulled independent of him, which would require a "remote" reverse lashing of some sort. I suppose both of those are based on the Gravity surge and could be either Windrunner or Skybreaker, but it just seems more like a Windrunner thiing, to "mess" around with someone defensively during a sparing combat rather than attack all out like I think a Skybreaker would be inclined to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mckeedee123 Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 Also... was that illustration in Way of Kings? I admit, the "Last Clap" kind of bugged me a little in Words of Radiance, but if it was foreshadowed in the first book, then... I'm actually pretty sure that the last clap is based on a supposed technique that ninjas used to catch a samurai's blade (saw it on mythbusters). There's nothing magical about it and it is do-able provided your enemy didn't swing his sword hard enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn Posted October 31, 2014 Report Share Posted October 31, 2014 I'm actually pretty sure that the last clap is based on a supposed technique that ninjas used to catch a samurai's blade (saw it on mythbusters). There's nothing magical about it and it is do-able provided your enemy didn't swing his sword hard enough. i don't think anyone said that the Last Clap is magical necessarily, but the only people we've seen do it are either Knights Radiant or Proto-radiants. Also Samurai swords aren't formed of cognitive entities that sever the soul's connection when they hit something. I'd say it's much more difficult to do it on a Shardblade than a regular sword... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted October 31, 2014 Report Share Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) Also Samurai swords aren't formed of cognitive entities that sever the soul's connection when they hit something. I'd say it's much more difficult to do it on a Shardblade than a regular sword... Shardblade should be easier, since people swinging Shardblades typically don't put much force behind them (which is the requirement on doing the technique successfully), shouldn't they? They're also much lighter and have a much larger surface area to grab on to... not to mention they're longer, much means you have more leverage if you grab towards the end of the Blade. Maybe I'm insane? Edited October 31, 2014 by Moogle 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cem Posted October 31, 2014 Report Share Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) Shardblade should be easier, since people swinging Shardblades typically don't put much force behind them (which is the requirement on doing the technique successfully), shouldn't they? They're also much lighter and have a much larger surface area to grab on to... not to mention they're longer, much means you have more leverage if you grab towards the end of the Blade. Maybe I'm insane? I don't think you're insane. Shardblades have less mass than steel swords. So assuming they're swung with the same speed, Shardblade should have less force behind it? Can someone who knows something about physics confirm if I'm making any sense? By the way, Mythbusters say the last clap doesn't work with real swords: http://mythbustersresults.com/episode78 Edited October 31, 2014 by cem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn Posted October 31, 2014 Report Share Posted October 31, 2014 Shardblade should be easier, since people swinging Shardblades typically don't put much force behind them (which is the requirement on doing the technique successfully), shouldn't they? They're also much lighter and have a much larger surface area to grab on to... not to mention they're longer, much means you have more leverage if you grab towards the end of the Blade. Maybe I'm insane? My point has nothing to do with the weight of the swords or the force with which they are swung. If your hand gets hit by a shardblade at just the wrong angle, it is grey and "burned out"... even if they are "play swinging". You might be able, mythbusters research not withstanding, to stop a regular sword at a slight wrong angle and get your hand sliced or mangled, but recoverable and still manage to stop the blade. if you don't perfectly catch a shardblade on the other hand, it is going to cut right through your hand, severing your soul's connection to it and pass into your body, probably killing you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis Posted October 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2014 Shardblade should be easier, since people swinging Shardblades typically don't put much force behind them (which is the requirement on doing the technique successfully), shouldn't they? They're also much lighter and have a much larger surface area to grab on to... not to mention they're longer, much means you have more leverage if you grab towards the end of the Blade. Maybe I'm insane? I think you have this backwards. The "lever" in this case is sorta the hilt, not the sword tip. You're trying to stop something. Force is mass times velocity. The tip of the sword will cover an arc of a few feet while the hilt moves a foot or less, so the tip's velocity is much greater. You'll have an easier time stopping it closer to the hilt. I think the surface area of the sword is what makes the last clap plausible in this scenario, not it's mass. You've got a huge, possibly etched thing to grab onto, as opposed to a slim blade you'll have to hope you catch perfectly by simple friction. It's like the difference between catching a fly ball, and catching a fly. (Or like a thrown grain of rice would be more accurate, but the verbiage worked out better this way). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flywinged Posted October 31, 2014 Report Share Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) I think you have this backwards. The "lever" in this case is sorta the hilt, not the sword tip. You're trying to stop something. Force is mass times velocity. The tip of the sword will cover an arc of a few feet while the hilt moves a foot or less, so the tip's velocity is much greater. You'll have an easier time stopping it closer to the hilt. Sorry, I hate to be "that guy", but Moogle has it right. The farther you are away from the fulcrum, in this case the fulcrum is at the arm sockets (is that a word? I'm going with it) of the shard-weilder, the less force is required. It's like a seesaw, if someone is heavier than you, they have to move closer to the middle because it exhibits less rotational energy. So the person wielding the blade is say three feet away from the fulcrum (that s about the length of the arm, right?) and the person catching the blade at the end is 9 feet (cause the blades are like 6 feet long, i think?). So the person catching the sword only needs 1/3 of the force the person swinging the sword is exerting to catch it. Which too me seems like a very plausible scenario, in addition to the large surface area you were speaking of, Outis. Edited October 31, 2014 by Flywinged Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis Posted October 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) Yeah, I got that backwards. Sorry. EDIT: None of this changes the real question. WHAT IN THE NAME OF THE HERALDS IS GOING ON IN THE UPPER RIGHT. Edited October 31, 2014 by Outis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flywinged Posted October 31, 2014 Report Share Posted October 31, 2014 @Outis Hey, no problem. We're all friends here. Friends talking about the best author to have ever existed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn Posted October 31, 2014 Report Share Posted October 31, 2014 EDIT: None of this changes the real question. WHAT IN THE NAME OF THE HERALDS IS GOING ON IN THE UPPER RIGHT. Exactly my question initially! THAT is the picture that causes me to double take when I look at these war codes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BreathTaker Posted October 31, 2014 Report Share Posted October 31, 2014 Holy Crem, I think I got it! At first glance it looks like the guy is levitating, so maybe a Windrunner or Skybreaker but if you look again, the trail of the sword looks kind of fuzzy as though maybe it was passing through an illusion... I think it's a Lightweaver using an illusion to confuse their opponent. The meditation and lack of armor might also mean it is a Shin but unlikely, I think it is to lure the enemy into a false sense of confidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn Posted October 31, 2014 Report Share Posted October 31, 2014 Holy Crem, I think I got it! At first glance it looks like the guy is levitating, so maybe a Windrunner or Skybreaker but if you look again, the trail of the sword looks kind of fuzzy as though maybe it was passing through an illusion... I think it's a Lightweaver using an illusion to confuse their opponent. The meditation and lack of armor might also mean it is a Shin but unlikely, I think it is to lure the enemy into a false sense of confidence. Could be! I thought the odd trail of the sword indicated a Reverse lashing, so still either Windrunner or Skybreaker. Does it seem odd to anyone else, that the Gravity surge equals 2 of the 3 lashings, while Adhesion is only the basic lashing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgedancer Posted October 31, 2014 Report Share Posted October 31, 2014 Does it seem odd to anyone else, that the Gravity surge equals 2 of the 3 lashings, while Adhesion is only the basic lashing? No, it´s why for the longest time people assumed one of the lashings was a combination of the two Surges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn Posted October 31, 2014 Report Share Posted October 31, 2014 No, it´s why for the longest time people assumed one of the lashings was a combination of the two Surges. I must have been absent from the boards during that portion of discussions I guess. It just seems weird that the only way that Windrunners (at least right now) know how to use Adhesion is to stick things together. I guess it just feels weak compared to many of the other capabilities of other surges is all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arondell Posted October 31, 2014 Report Share Posted October 31, 2014 I must have been absent from the boards during that portion of discussions I guess. It just seems weird that the only way that Windrunners (at least right now) know how to use Adhesion is to stick things together. I guess it just feels weak compared to many of the other capabilities of other surges is all... I think there have been hints of other capabilities associated with Atmospheric Pressure(Adhesion). One obvious one is the scene where Kaladin comes back from patrol. Perhaps that was what he was noticing. Was he suddenly predicting highstorms because the night seemed too . . . something? Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 364). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. I suspect that was the Atmospheric Pressure surge at work. Changes in air pressure are after all one method used to predict weather in the real world. There is also that scene during the big duel when he came to Adolins aid. Instinct . . . then something deeper . . . guided his steps. He danced between those Blades, cool air wrapping around him. And for a moment, he felt— impossibly— that he could have dodged just as well if his eyes had been closed. Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 671). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. Now maybe any knight radiant could have used that effect but I again suspect that the Atmospheric Pressure surge may have been in play here. Perhaps giving him the ability to sense where object were based on the very tiny changes in air pressure they generated combined with the enhanced reflexes and speed stormlight provides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted November 1, 2014 Report Share Posted November 1, 2014 Now maybe any knight radiant could have used that effect but I again suspect that the Atmospheric Pressure surge may have been in play here. Perhaps giving him the ability to sense where object were based on the very tiny changes in air pressure they generated combined with the enhanced reflexes and speed stormlight provides. This is interesting, but I do see one problem: if you're saying Surges grant the passive benefits the Radiants enjoy, why do either of Jasnah or Renarin not share Shallan's enhanced memory? Why is it only one order that gets that sort of thing if it's tied to a Surge? I feel like it maybe ties more to the spren bond. Syl is a cousin to the windspren, so Kaladin gains an affinity for the wind. But then, the Nahel spren are themselves combinations of the Surges, so that ties into your theory still. Hm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry31j97 Posted November 1, 2014 Report Share Posted November 1, 2014 (edited) The picture showing last clap is of a regular sword, not shardblade, so Rosharians at least believe in ninjas catching swords by hands. :-) Edited November 1, 2014 by harry31j97 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arondell Posted November 1, 2014 Report Share Posted November 1, 2014 This is interesting, but I do see one problem: if you're saying Surges grant the passive benefits the Radiants enjoy, why do either of Jasnah or Renarin not share Shallan's enhanced memory? Why is it only one order that gets that sort of thing if it's tied to a Surge? I feel like it maybe ties more to the spren bond. Syl is a cousin to the windspren, so Kaladin gains an affinity for the wind. But then, the Nahel spren are themselves combinations of the Surges, so that ties into your theory still. Hm. It is very tentative at the moment. Something I thought of when trying to figure out what other effects the Atmospheric Pressure surge might provide. We'll really have to wait until we get examples of other radiants in combat. I don't count Dalinar since he didn't speak the oaths until the end of the book. Also that scene is a little odd because Syl later made a comment that implied she had to be there for that effect to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mckeedee123 Posted November 2, 2014 Report Share Posted November 2, 2014 (edited) Breakthrough theory on that image in the upper-right: Just like how the guy in the upper-left is doing a "last clap", the guy in the upper right is performing a "last-juke". The technique involves jumping into the air and doing random yoga poses to surprise your enemies. Do you see the look on that guy's face? Classic. Edited November 2, 2014 by mckeedee123 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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