Perlmutter Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 It seems that in other books the main characters ( barring got) are protected by plot shield. Here's and example, halfway through the novel in a minor battle you know there's little to no chance of the main characters being injured, let alone killed. This is called plot shield in my mind, that the character is too important to the plot that they must live. Generally, shard plate/surges mean you're practically invincible in a fight. There's rare occursnxes in the book where shard bearers are killed, and no radiant has been killed yet. I'd say giving a character shards/surges means they are in the little bubble of invincibility unless the plot requires their death, and there's usually buildup to the death, so you know there will be no random out of the blue deaths of main characters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 in which case, they'd be justified plot shields Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiver Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 What King of Nowhere said. Having magic armor which renders you virtually invincible isn't a plot shield- it may be overpowered, or a game breaker, but that's different. Shardplate is an established story element, a part of the world and the lore being built around it. A character being spared the consequences f their actions, surviving when all internal logic says they should have died, is closer to a plot shield. Frankly, Kaladin surviving his encounter with Amaram in the Way of Kings seems more like a plot-mandated survival than shardplate is, especially given what we see of Amaram in Words of Radiance. As for being invincible in fights... I think it's important to ntoe that, so far, fights have been fairly heavily stacked in the shardbearers favor. That was the motivation for discovering Stormform (at least as far as Eshonai was concerned); they needed somethign to enable them to be able to fight back thanks to dwindling numbers. But that's a point Dalinar raised in the Way of Kings; the Shards are overpowered, because they aren't being used for their intended purpose. They weren't meant to fight men and women with them, because... well, normal men and women don't stand much of a chance against a sword that can cut through anything and a soldier decked out in Iron Man armor. Once the voidbringers, the Thunderclasts, and who-knows-what-other horrors Odium has been cooking up are spilled onto the battlefield, however, it may turn out that these weapons aren't as useful as they appear right now. Same goes for surges, really. Until WoR, we didn't see any surgebinders conflicts, and the only ones we did see were Szeth (a man skiled in their use) using them against opponents who weren't prepared for them. Presumably, surges are going to become more useful (but less effective) against the Odium hoards... and, as they become more common place, more well-known, it's possible that strategies to counteract them, giving typical soldiers a chance, will emerge. Stormkillers, anyone? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 Part of the reason there aren't any KR killed is because there are no KR yet... Also, what Quiver said: surgebinding and Shards are meant to fight Voidbringers, not the average soldier. Is there any particular fight that upsets you or are you complaining in general? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perlmutter Posted October 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2014 Not exactly complainin, just stating something I noticed. I dunno just kinda irritated by the Jasnah thing (finished book 2 days ago ) cuz I thought it would be more serious as I just finished Song of Ice and Fires last book, dunno just transitioning and making a conversation point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sun tzaro Posted October 24, 2014 Report Share Posted October 24, 2014 (edited) Normal men can't touch Shardbearers. We see this from Kaladin's description of how Helaran slices through soldiers like butter. Shardbearers can't touch Honorblade-wielders/second-Oath KRs. We see this from how Szeth slaughters three prepared Shardbearers and a whole contingent of professional guards without a hitch. Honorblade-wielders/second-Oath KRs can't touch third-Oath KRs. We see this from how Kaladin uses his superior Stormlight retention and shapeshifting Shardblade to stomp all over Szeth, a fight which absolutely should have gone in Szeth's favor since Szeth has been using Surges to slaughter skilled warriors for years, while Kaladin is comparatively a novice. The power scaling is real. I can only imagine how bad it'll get when the KRs go further into their oaths and get true Shardplate. I suppose it makes sense why inter-Order conflict was such a problem. No one else can really stand up to the KRs. Edited October 24, 2014 by sun tzaro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted October 24, 2014 Report Share Posted October 24, 2014 Not exactly complainin, just stating something I noticed. I dunno just kinda irritated by the Jasnah thing (finished book 2 days ago ) cuz I thought it would be more serious as I just finished Song of Ice and Fires last book, dunno just transitioning and making a conversation point Ah, well in SoIaF a lot of characters die, so I understand how WoR can be frustrating if you were really caught in Martin's style. Sharbearers and surgebinders are almost invincible when it comes to the average soldier, however they were never meant for such a thing. The magic is on a different scale here with the faith of the world at stake. We have Odium's creations - the Voidbringers and possibly other things as well, like the everstorm. Odium is a Shard, god-like creature like Honor, who gave the Honorblades to the Heralds and had them fight for the sake of Roshar. Later on the spren imitated Honor's Blades, thus surgebinders started appearing to help humanity. Sometime after surgebinders became Knights Radiant - we don't know how exactly a surgebinder differs from a KR in terms of power, we can only guess. The Shards are the leftovers after the Knights Radiant betrayed their Oaths in the day of Recreance. It's all on a different scale than the average fantasy. Think of it like angles vs demons; of course an angel could easily take down dozens of human soldiers, but angels are God's warriors and were meant to fight the armies of hell. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaellok Posted October 24, 2014 Report Share Posted October 24, 2014 Wearing Shardplate is like being in a tank. A tank isn't going to lose to most infantry, especially in an open battle, very often. On the other hand, using a tank to fight infantry (while effective) is not using its strength and power in the best way possible. As far as differences in writing between GoT and SA--Sanderson isn't writing literary slasher fic. A significant draw to many of the fans of GoT is the random unpredictability of who is killed and who isn't. I understand your complaint about Jasnah's 'death'; it worked for me because I never believed her to actually be dead. Szeth's revival, on the other hand, worked poorly for me. There've been other threads, including at least one that is active on front page, discussing these issues if you want to contribute more there. If you're wanting other authors that gleefully kill off characters that fans have come to know and love or care for, there's not many besides GRRM writing fantasy. I would very highly suggest Mira Grant's Newflesh trilogy (starting with Feed)--not fantasy at all, as it's a near-future post-zombie apocalypse, but it is insanely good (I don't like the genre, and Feed is one of my favorite books of all-time). A lot of friends that I have that enjoy GRRM also really like Joe Abercrombie, but his characters always felt very flat to me; an incredibly notable exception is the very well-written Best Served Cold. Glen Cook is also always good, especially his Black Company series, and I also really enjoy his Instrumentalities of the Night, too, but that's a lot more political than grimdark (although it's got more than it's fair share of that, too, hah). Not sure if you were looking for other reading suggestions or not, but those are what I can come up with right now that I think you might enjoy based on what you've said. Keep reading Sanderson, though; even though the style is quite a bit different than GRRM, I've found that my satisfaction level remains higher for longer with Sanderson's works than GRRM. I mean, I grow actually attached to the characters, and enjoy going back to reread his books and spend more time with them, and look for things I missed before, etc. With GRRM, I know everyone dies. By the end of Dance with Dragons, every character I still like is dead. The draw for me to keep reading is to see the ones that I love hating to get what's coming to them. This is good for short- and mid-term, but it's not got the same impact; my interest in new novels by GRRM is fading with every year that passes without a new novel published, and it has been a steady downward trend overall since the Red Wedding. With Sanderson, literally every novel he publishes seems to be better and more exciting than the one before it, so I spend a great deal of time, excitedly awaiting the new one with impatient anticipation. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted October 24, 2014 Report Share Posted October 24, 2014 Normal men can't touch Shardbearers. We see this from Kaladin's description of how Helaran slices through soldiers like butter. Shardbearers can't touch Honorblade-wielders/second-Oath KRs. We see this from how Szeth slaughters three prepared Shardbearers and a whole contingent of professional guards without a hitch. Honorblade-wielders/second-Oath KRs can't touch third-Oath KRs. We see this from how Kaladin uses his superior Stormlight retention and shapeshifting Shardblade to stomp all over Szeth, a fight which absolutely should have gone in Szeth's favor since Szeth has been using Surges to slaughter skilled warriors for years, while Kaladin is comparatively a novice. The power scaling is real. I can only imagine how bad it'll get when the KRs go further into their oaths and get true Shardplate. I suppose it makes sense why inter-Order conflict was such a problem. No one else can really stand up to the KRs. Yeah, I've been thinking on an equivalent of hazekillers for radiants, but there's nothing to be done. So I expect a huge powerup for odium's forces in the next book. stormforms are still on the level of ordinary soldiers, say one of them equals to two or three regular soldiers, but still littlle treaths for simple shardbearers. we'll soon see something capable of really threatening radiants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis Posted October 24, 2014 Report Share Posted October 24, 2014 Maybe with a little practice? They didn't really seem able to control the lightning. If they could direct it better, they'd be MUCH more of a threat. Also, while on a one-on-one scale they weren't able to fight soldiers terribly effectively, recall that they summoned THE EVERSTORM. Millions will die, at a conservative estimate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted October 24, 2014 Report Share Posted October 24, 2014 yeah, but the everstorm is not a treath to radiants, merely to the population they protect. it is entirely possible that the current radiants are too few and all of humankind will be slaughtered while they are powerless to stop the huge numbers of voidbringers... but seeing a radiant mop the floor with countless enemies while even more enemies just go ahead and kill the people he was trying to protect don't really seem the most epic of storiesto me. So, I'd bet goood money that the voidbringers will have boss troops. we already know of thunderclasts, and I'd say there will be more forthe sake of variety Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis Posted October 24, 2014 Report Share Posted October 24, 2014 My friend calls them "Voidpets". The Midnight Essence, the Thunderclasts. I have a theory that they're all corrupted Bonding spren. Of the spren we've seen, most seem to conform to their Soulcasting Property. i.e. Syl looks like a windspren, Ivory looks like oil, Pattern travels just below the surface of things like blood. By this logic, there will be one for each of the ten Soulcasting elements. Of the Voidpets we've seen, one is Rock, one is Oil. I just figure the midnight essense gets animated when you corrupt a spren like Ivory, and the thunderclasts are made when you corrupt a spren from the Stoneward order. Just a guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinTheHerdazian Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Normal men can't touch Shardbearers. We see this from Kaladin's description of how Helaran slices through soldiers like butter. Shardbearers can't touch Honorblade-wielders/second-Oath KRs. We see this from how Szeth slaughters three prepared Shardbearers and a whole contingent of professional guards without a hitch. Honorblade-wielders/second-Oath KRs can't touch third-Oath KRs. We see this from how Kaladin uses his superior Stormlight retention and shapeshifting Shardblade to stomp all over Szeth, a fight which absolutely should have gone in Szeth's favor since Szeth has been using Surges to slaughter skilled warriors for years, while Kaladin is comparatively a novice. The power scaling is real. I can only imagine how bad it'll get when the KRs go further into their oaths and get true Shardplate. I suppose it makes sense why inter-Order conflict was such a problem. No one else can really stand up to the KRs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinTheHerdazian Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Szeth actually let Kaladin win. I think that Szeth would have ended up winning because he had more experience with both surge binding and fighting with shardblades Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Small update: Reread Starfalls last night. The Radiant in Dalinar's vision refers to things like the midnight essence as "the Ten Deaths." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaspin Posted October 29, 2014 Report Share Posted October 29, 2014 From your talk of plot armor, you must not have read any of Sanderson's other books. He doesn't usually keep a character around for the sake of plot, or their status as a main character. In some of his other series he has shown he will end a character's story if it works for him. It seems a bit odd for Szeth and Jasnah to be revealed as not dead now, but I promise, as more books are published, some of us will be crying heavy tears over the fate of some of these characters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts