The proper timing for the big reveal in WoR epilogue

[king of nowhere]

The only unsatisfying thing I have to say about wor is the way jasnah returned at the end.

Oh, I'm realy happy that she's still alive, and that part that brandon released showing her in shadesmar makes it perfectly reasonable. I'm not talking about that. I'm sure Jasnah returning is for the best. What bothered me was the timing of the reveal. It was at the end of the book, right after the climax, with lots and lots and lots of big reveals. So my reaction to it was not much "aww, what a surprise " but rather "oh, yes, another big reveal with someone coming back from death. what next?" In general, too many big reveals crammed together strongly reduce their impact. When really overdone, it can completey ruin a good book, at least for me; if everything we know is turned on its head too often, I just stop caring about it. It's like someone tell me 'oh hear that, that's really intersting blah blah blah, but surprise! i lied to you, in truth is blah blah blah and surprise again! even that was wrong, the real fact is blah blah blah but not really, did you fall for it? ...' and I'd be all, is there even a point in listening to this?

WoR didn't go that far, but it came a bit too close for my comfort. Saving jasnah reapppearence for another place would have mostly prevented that.

 

But then, what was the right moment to announce that she was still alive?

Earlier in the book, possibly in an interlude? Maybe, but it would have taken away much of the emotional impact on the reader on the scenes where shallan discuss with dalinar and navani about jasnah.

At the beginning of the third book? But then, such a plot twist in the first chapter is hardly a good way to start a book. the first interlude would proobably be most approopriate. But then, inserting it out of the blue in the first part of a book that is mostly unrelated to it is also far from ideal. not to mention, regardless of how it works once the whole series is out, it would not be nice to the readers to announce jasnah death in book two and then take it back two years later.

Maybe the problem with it was that there was too little foreshadowing? virtually nothing supported the idea of a live jasnah during the course of the book. unlike with moiraine death in the wheel of time where she simply disappeared through a portal, jassnah was stabbed through the heart, repeatedly, on screen. And at the time the regenerative properties of stormlight were very vague. we only saw it heal minor cuts and bruises (even when kaladin is exposed to the storm, all he had were supeficial cuts and bruises. he was dieing because he had so many of them), and szeth, in the prologue, mention that it will take him a few hours to fix a broken bone. So, all we knew pointed in the direction of stormlight being unable to heal several heart stabs. Also the fact that jasnah could elsecall wasn't really hinted. yes, it is shown in the diagram at the end of the book, if you can decipher the gliphs. Someone in the forum posted it, but it's hardly the kind of thing a reader can figure out on his own. Then again, a subtle foreshadiwing probably would still be completely missed by the casual reader, while being too obvious to the cosmere-wise reader.

So, maybe, while the placement was not ideal, it was still the best that could be made? Or maybe I'm the only one who cares about too many twists it in the first place and I'm making lots of fuss for nothing?

 

Edited October 23, 2014 by king of nowhere

[Bloodfalcon]

There was a "back from the dead" moment in Wheel of Time as well that took forever to occur. For me it felt a little underwhelming after so long. On the other hand, Jasnah's return felt the same way to me in WoR. I was happy about it, but again - underwhelming. I think a little more build up would have been nice. Maybe some things effects of her actions being seen by other characters though unexplained to the reader.... I don't know. I'm happy with it, but I think because I'm so thrilled with the entire book. 

[Moogle]

Sooner would have been better, I think. I liked how Szeth was done: he "died", and was back in the span of a few chapters, so it didn't feel like a cheap "oh the author is completely invalidating death".
 
Issue is, doing much of anything with Jasnah would have made the epilogue less noteworthy, and would have added things in the middle of the story that wouldn't have been tied up by the end, hurting pacing.
 
What's more, apparently Brandon was having trouble fitting Jasnah's chapters in the third book in anywhere nice, so he's considering releasing a mini-novel with her Shadesmar adventures.
 
Everything to do with Jasnah's story seems a bit weird. Probably because it wasn't originally planned that she'd be "killed" off, and she would have solved the plot in two seconds if she wasn't forcibly removed. Oh Jasnah, so competent and wonderful that the author has to put huge random obstacles in your way.
 
WoB on her death not being planned:

Q:  Why didn't Shallan summon her Shardblade on the ship when they were attacked?
A:  The Shardblade has a lot of....I mean if you look at it she thought about it.  She has this psychological thing where she ignores the past, and it's so painful to her, the things that happened.
Q:  Why did you gloss over (can't make this out)?
A:  Because Jasnah, that was not going to happen in this book.  In the initial plot it didn't happen, and Shallan was unable to, in the initial scenes I wrote, come into her own and so I had to make major revisions to the plot for this outline, the biggest thing I did was that.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Moogle

[Bloodfalcon]

Sooner would have been better, I think. I liked how Szeth was done: he "died", and was back in the span of a few chapters, so it didn't feel like a cheap "oh the author is completely invalidating death".

 

Issue is, doing much of anything with Jasnah would have made the epilogue less noteworthy, and would have added things in the middle of the story that wouldn't have been tied up by the end, hurting pacing.

 

What's more, apparently Brandon was having trouble fitting Jasnah's chapters in the third book in anywhere nice, so he's considering releasing a mini-novel with her Shadesmar adventures.

 

Everything to do with Jasnah's story seems a bit weird. Probably because it wasn't originally planned that she'd be "killed" off, and she would have solved the plot in two seconds if she wasn't forcibly removed. Oh Jasnah, so competent and wonderful that the author has to put huge random obstacles in your way.

 

WoB on her death not being planned:

Wow, thanks for that WoB; I'm not sure I've seen that one before, but it's very intriguing. Between that and the alternate Kaladin decision, I think we're seeing every character could have been drastically different despite Brandon having an overall plan. Makes the entire plot seem sort of like... microchaos.

[AerionBFII]

For a second I thought she was back when pattern used Jasnahs voice to spook Tyn, I almost died.

I really missed her when she died but I was resigned to it. It would have been great if she came back but coming back and interacting with Hoid?!?!?! Best. Scene. Ever.

I'm usually against sudden returns from death but I think she has a lot to offer to the story and it was essential for shallans growth.

[kaellok]

Jasnah's death and return are a bit wonky for a few different storytelling reasons.  This was Shallan's book, and her time to actually start coming into her own--and she can't do that with a mentor-figure that is so very much more accomplished hovering over her.  The "death" and return of Jasnah, combined with the "death" and return of Szeth, however, leaves the actual end of WoR in something resembling a 'reset', where things happened, but in the end not much really changed (this is obviously not factually true, but the feeling on two major characters coming back from the dead being the final scenes serves to leave that impression.)

 

However, if Jasnah had returned sooner, it would have detracted from the story instead of adding to it.  I feel that the same is also true if she were to, say, return in Book 3.  No matter when Jasnah were to return, it would be a disruption to the story.  The way it's done, at the end of Book 2, actually helps to advance the story a little bit, and give hints of meaning and purpose to it.  At the point of the reveal, I was finally beginning to think that her death might actually have been real.  There were so few pages left in the book, and I assumed there would be another entry of the Ars Arcanum, and the bit with Szeth seemed like it could be the final end of the story--and then there was Wit.  And a bit later, there was Jasnah.  Maybe if I had actually believed her to be dead I would think differently, but I do think that how it happened is the best way for it to have happened, if it needed to.

 

Of course, Book 2 could have been turned into Jasnah's story and prevented any need for dead/not-dead from happening, but that would have also substantially changed everything else.

[Purelake Earthquake]

I never once believed she was really dead, so it worked for me.  Since we didn't know much about her powers and since she's pretty boss I wouldn't assume she would let herself be killed so easily.  I thought for sure she used some magic trick we didn't know about to get herself out of that.  And since the prologue made her even more mysterious and WoR taught us about everyone having two Surges and Jasnah's not a Lightweaver she had to be able to do something Else - turns out that was calling.  So that was enough foreshadowing for me, though a vaguer foreshadowing; I was pretty sure survived, but I had no clue how she did it.  That's the thing about SA even us 17th sharders with who know all the hidden details still know very little about how things work on Roshar.  Since it's drawn out over more words than say Mistborn, and since it's in a "magical renaissance", sometimes things seem deus ex machina-y to some people.  It requires a sort of temporary suspension of disbelief based on the understanding that you'll know how things work later, this fits with the series' steeper learning curve.

At the end I was more concerned about if Hoid was going to tell a cool story again for the epilogue and what the ketek would be.  I also like it at the epilogue since then there's the symmetry with the book starting and ending with Jasnah, and SA plays with structure and symmetry a lot.  I'm interested to see where things go with Jasnah, she's definitely set to do more cool things, everything's probably going to get crazy by the time the characters realize she's alive.

[Moogle]

Since it's drawn out over more words than say Mistborn, and since it's in a "magical renaissance", sometimes things seem deus ex machina-y to some people.  It requires a sort of temporary suspension of disbelief based on the understanding that you'll know how things work later, this fits with the series' steeper learning curve.

 

I still don't think this is fair. I think Brandon himself would disagree with that. To quote him:

Sanderson’s First Law of Magics: An author’s ability to solve conflict with magic is DIRECTLY PROPORTIONAL to how well the reader understands said magic.

...

There is a reason that Gandalf doesn’t just fly Frodo to Mount Doom with magic, then let him drop the ring in. Narratively, that just doesn’t work with the magic system. We don’t know what it can do, and so if the reader uses it to solve a lot of problems, then the tension in the novel ends up feeling weak. The magic undermines the plot instead enhancing it.

(source)

 

We don't understand what Jasnah did, but she used magic to effectively solve the conflict where she, y'know, ends up fighting assassins and with a knife through her heart. It's very unsatisfying in general for me.

 

And what's more, it would have been so easy to foreshadow - when Jasnah explains to Shallan that they only share Transformation, she could have mentioned she has the Surge of Transportation. When Jasnah's body ends up gone, we can guess she "transported" herself somewhere else.

 

Overall, Jasnah's "death" did not jive well with me.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Moogle

[Twenty@20]

Before WoR, we had only a rough idea about the Orders and the Surges. It was only from WoR's Arcanum we learnt about the surges and the in-world book gave us names of the Orders. Combining these sources with the surgebinding chart and some WoB's we got a clear idea about the KR abilities. And the characters knew even less than us at WoR beginning(except perhaps Jasnah). So first time readers had a learning curve. At the point of Jasnah's death we were unaware of Arcanum information and in-world book(unless someone skipped ahead). So her death would look definite to new readers at that point(except for the case of missing body).And her comeback in the epilogue may also look contrived, since first time readers had not reached the Arcanum information yet.

The point why Jasnah did not tell Shallan about her other Surge can be attributed to plot considerations. Because then Shallan would be awaiting Jasnah's return and her story would not progress as it as done(having to save the world single handed after the death of her mentor is very good for character building)

Edited October 23, 2014 by Twenty@20

[Purelake Earthquake]

The first law of magic doesn't specific that the reader has to understand the magic at the time is resolved.  Since the magic conflict wasn't really a very plot important one.  We will probably have been told a bunch about how that worked by the time that it becomes relevant to the things happening in the plot.  Vin drawing on the mists solved a huge conflict, but we weren't told how that works until two books later.  Lantern hanging lets people know that what's going on does make sense, and they'll find out how later.

Brandon has said that there's a way to avert the law, since the point is not to solve problems too easy, if the use of the magic has a very high cost, it can solve conflicts.  We don't know the workings of Gandalf's magic, but he uses it to defeat the Balrog, however it resulted in his disappearance until much later.  A few assassins compared to all the other conflicts we've seen in the book are a relatively small threat.  The result was Jasnah being gone for the whole book.  Now she's who knows where dong who knows what.

There's also something I heard him say on writing excuses where if you can get a character into a conflict at the beginning of a book, you can use an unknown element to get them out of it as a means of introducing or setting up that plot element. 

[Moogle]

The first law of magic doesn't specific that the reader has to understand the magic at the time is resolved. 

 

It is implicit. If you use magic to solve conflicts, and the reader doesn't understand the magic, it feels weak no matter if you explain afterwards.

 

Since the magic conflict wasn't really a very plot important one.  We will probably have been told a bunch about how that worked by the time that it becomes relevant to the things happening in the plot.  Vin drawing on the mists solved a huge conflict, but we weren't told how that works until two books later.  Lantern hanging lets people know that what's going on does make sense, and they'll find out how later.

 

Vin drawing on the mists is another example of Sanderson himself not following his First Law. This is an argument for another thread, but essentially the foreshadowing for that one consisted of one off-hand remark by Kelsier and he meant something entirely different. The ending to the first Mistborn is entirely deus ex to me, and I feel it helped inspired his First Law anyways. (He posted his First Law something around a year after Mistborn: FE came out, and conveniently the rest of the Mistborn series had little to no deus ex.)

 

Brandon has said that there's a way to avert the law, since the point is not to solve problems too easy, if the use of the magic has a very high cost, it can solve conflicts.  We don't know the workings of Gandalf's magic, but he uses it to defeat the Balrog, however it resulted in his disappearance until much later.  A few assassins compared to all the other conflicts we've seen in the book are a relatively small threat.  The result was Jasnah being gone for the whole book.  Now she's who knows where dong who knows what.

 

The main problem is that no, it didn't have a very high cost. Stormlight healing is cheap and amazingly effective. Jasnah Elsecalling was completely unnecessary in that scenario, and wasn't a solution to the conflict so much as a way to just get her out of Shallan's hair.

 

At the beginning of WoR, we had no hints that Stormlight healing could be as dramatic as saving you from a stab to the heart. Szeth explained it in WoK, and he explained that it was quite slow and could take hours. Not only was Brandon introducing new magic without explanations beforehand, he was breaking previously established rules.

 

We also had no idea that Stormlight healing could be effective as it is even when you're not glowing. Jasnah was not glowing when she got stabbed in the heart, so who could have predicted Stormlight healing would save her?

 

There's also something I heard him say on writing excuses where if you can get a character into a conflict at the beginning of a book, you can use an unknown element to get them out of it as a means of introducing or setting up that plot element. 

 

Sure, except we still didn't know what she did by the end of the book or how she survived. Quite a few people didn't know she survived at all, so they didn't even know the conflict was resolved via magic until the end. The plot element is not introduced or set up very well at all - compare it to Kelsier's first time using Allomancy in-depth on screen to steal some atium. And this isn't just "the beginning of a book", this is the second book in a series with a character many people have grown attached to.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Moogle

[king of nowhere]

I never once believed she was really dead, so it worked for me.  Since we didn't know much about her powers and since she's pretty boss I wouldn't assume she would let herself be killed so easily.  I thought for sure she used some magic trick we didn't know about to get herself out of that.  And since the prologue made her even more mysterious and WoR taught us about everyone having two Surges and Jasnah's not a Lightweaver she had to be able to do something Else - turns out that was calling.  So that was enough foreshadowing for me, though a vaguer foreshadowing; I was pretty sure survived, but I had no clue how she did it. 

Well, that's what I would have assumed if she had died in any other way. if the body was never seen, or she was stabbed vaguely, or anything, then I'd also have at least suspected she was alive.

But when she appeared on screen, apparently dead, not glowing, and was stabbed throught the heart again, when all our knowledge at the time strongy implied that stormlight healing wasn't good enough to heal that, plus the fact that the ship disappeared so even if she survived she would be stuck in freezing water at night and far from the coast, well... my genre savy told me it was brandon way of telling us "yes, she's really dead, no need to speculate about it, I'm showing you as hardly as I can that she died because I want no ambiguity about it". Well, my genre savy failed me that time, but it was a perfectly reasonable assumption

 

The first law of magic doesn't specific that the reader has to understand the magic at the time is resolved.  Since the magic conflict wasn't really a very plot important one.  We will probably have been told a bunch about how that worked by the time that it becomes relevant to the things happening in the plot.

Well, explaining magic after it is used is pretty much a good definition of "deus ex machina" to me. every deus ex machina is justified after it is done. Andd jasnah being stabbed, and then disappearing from the book entirely, is a pretty big plot point to me.

Now, if she had just gotten up after the stab and mopped the floor with the assassins, with no long term consequences, and then explaining that stormlight can heal even that much, that would have been a perfectly good way to introduce a new ability

Anyway, that's not necessarily bad. Deus ex machina is often used in a dispregiative sense, but it can actually be good, if it is done well and the explanation is convincing. In fact, I'm not complaining about jasnah surviving - in fact, after reading her released chapter, I think that was wonderfully done - I have problems with the time at with it was revealed and the general pacing of the book.

Also, Vin's example is not a real deus ex machina to me, because it didn't need to happen. if brandon wanted, he could show her tear the metalminds off of tlr arms manually (i believe it was so in the first draft). So the fact that he decided instead to solve it in an unexplained way was a big hint that there was a reason for it. And anyway, it was a well executed one, with a good payoff, so no problem with it.

 

After reading all the answers so far, I am convinced that the best time to show her surviving would be just after her apparent death, or a couple chapters later at most. First of all, it wouldn't feel like brandon is bringing her back so blatantly, if she stay dead only a few chapters. Then, she could have the chapter of her in shadesmar - that was actually a very short one, so maybe a half-chapter - to show that she's alive  but isolated, and then the story wouldn't have to focus on her. The bonus is, is solves most pacing problems. additional chapters of her in shadesmar could have been added along the book without disrupting it, instead of having to cut them or publish them separately as brandon may end up doing. The main drawback I see with it is that is strongly reduces the emotional impact of shallan crying for jasnah.

[Aleksiel]

By the end we knew there was a Transportation surge, that Elsecallers were the true masters of Shadesmar who were able to visit it, that stormlight can heal you from falling into the chasms. I though some of the spheres from the goblet Shallan knocked on the floor got to Jasnah, so she inhaled a little stormlight at the end and that was how she escaped and healed, though that wasn't it. But overall I think there was enough foreshadowing to be fairly certain Jasnah survived. 

 

edit: I have issues with Szeth's revival, not Jasnah's return, but that's probably for another topic...

Edited October 23, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Moogle]

edit: I have issues with Szeth's revival, not Jasnah's return, but that's probably for another topic...

 

Szeth's revival was at least not a new function of the magic system. In fact, it was explained previously that Regrowth could be used to heal Shardblade wounds:

[szeth claims Kaladin healed a Shardblade wound]

“Yes,” Taravangian said. “I have heard only hints. Your people are secretive. But yes . . . I see, it is one of the two that allow Regrowth. Kholin must have it.”

 

And in WoK, we see Regrowth used via fabrial:

[Lady Radiant holds an odd metal device with gemstones in it next to Dalinar, healing him]

“I should save Regrowth for others who might be wounded,” the woman said, glancing at the village. The fighting seemed to be dying down.

 

And there were even theories on how her Regrowth fabrial used heliodors and topaz to heal flesh and blood. Well, you can stick rubies in, and that should heal the soul, since that's what ruby is associated with.

 

And, of course, we saw Lift revive Gawx from death. Again, using Regrowth:

We have been using that well for many weeks now, and it is time for you to learn the second , the power of Growth. You aren’t ready for what was once known as Regrowth, the healing of—”

...

“You spoke of something earlier,” she whispered. “Re . . .” “Regrowth,” he said. “Each bond grants power over two Surges . You can influence how things grow.” “Can I use this to help Gawx?” “If you were better trained? Yes. As it stands, I doubt it. You aren’t very strong, aren’t very practiced.

...

“He performed the miracle of Regrowth,” said one of the older scions. “He was dead and he returned. What better application could we ask for?”

 

It wasn't foreshadowed very bluntly, but at least it's there. We understand: Regrowth can heal things, even from death. By Sanderson's First Law, it works well when Szeth dies and he comes back because we understand the magic.

 

No such thing existed for Jasnah when she "died".

Edited October 23, 2014 by Moogle

[Aleksiel]

 

Szeth's revival was at least not a new function of the magic system. In fact, it was explained previously that Regrowth could be used to heal Shardblade wounds:

 

And in WoK, we see Regrowth used in action:

 

And there were even theories on how her Regrowth fabrial used heliodors and topaz to heal flesh and blood. Well, you can stick rubies in, and that should heal the soul, since that's what ruby is associated with.

 

It wasn't foreshadowed very bluntly, but at least it's there. No such thing exists for Jasnah.

 

There wan't anything on fabrials mimicking Regrowth or someone dead being resurrected by a surgebinder. There was very little foreshadowing about Nale's interest in Szeth and no indications he was around on the Plains. He appeared out of nowhere carrying a device we never even heard legends for. How is that better than Jasnah's case?

 

With Jasnah we have:

1. Missing corpse
2. Rolling spheres near Jasnah (from the goblet Shallan knocked)
3. Stormlight healing the fall into the chasms
4. Judging on in-world WoR is was fairly easy to figure out her Order could travel to Shadesma

May be this wan't enough for you, but I don't complain. I expected her to show up anyway.

[king of nowhere]

now a few people mentioned that jasnah's corpse was missing, is it true?

I don't have the book with me, but both times i read it I was sure than jasnah corpse was being stabbed over and over, it wasn't missing. after the thieves stabbed jasnah, shallan run into her cabin and soulcasted the ship, and jasnah corpse was never seen again - but because it sunk with the rest of the ship, and shallan had other concerns than looking around.  I don't remember a mention that jasnah's body disappeared; if I had, I'd have reacted to the scene much differently. what did I miss?

 

Also, for "reviving from death"; the way I understood it, regrowth cannot really resurrect; simply, after blood flow to the brain stops, the brain cells will still survive a few minutes, and if regrowth is used in that time, the person can be healed. Or, in the case of szeth, the sooul was severed but the body was still alive. Anyway, something must be still alive for regrowth to work.

[Aleksiel]

Here's the quote:

 

Heart thumping, Shallan felt her way to Jasnah’s cabin, expecting at any moment to trip over the woman’s corpse on the floor. She didn’t. Had the men dragged it above?

Shallan entered Jasnah’s cabin and closed the door.

 

It's suspicious, thought on its own means nothing, but it's part of the foreshadowing.

 

edit: fixing the quote

Edited October 23, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Moogle]

There wan't anything on fabrials mimicking Regrowth or someone dead being resurrected by a surgebinder. There was very little foreshadowing about Nale's interest in Szeth and no indications he was around on the Plains. He appeared out of nowhere carrying a device we never even heard legends for. How is that better than Jasnah's case?

 

I did the exact quote for both the first two. The Radiant in Dalinar's vision has a Regrowth fabrial, and Lift resurrects someone. These happen before Szeth dies. Here is Dalinar's fabrial sighitng in more full fashion:

“Be at peace,” a voice said.

Dalinar lurched, turning to see a woman in delicate Shardplate kneeling beside him, holding something bright. It was a topaz entwined with a heliodor, both set into a fine metal framework, each stone as big as a man’s hand. The woman had light tan eyes that almost seemed to glow in the night, and she wore no helm. Her hair was pulled back into a bun. She raised a hand and touched his forehead. Ice washed across him. Suddenly, his pain was gone. The woman reached out and touched Taffa. The flesh on her arm regrew in an eyeblink; the torn muscle remained where it was, but other flesh just grew where the chunks had been torn out. The skin knitted up over it without flaw, and the female Shardbearer wiped away the blood and torn flesh with a white cloth.

...

"...Is your mind still muddled? Lady knight, could you heal him again?”

“I should save Regrowth for others who might be wounded,” the woman said, glancing at the village. The fighting seemed to be dying down.

 

Here's what Szeth sees:

He felt rock beneath him. Blasphemy. He heard water dripping and felt the sun on his face. “Why am I not dead?” he whispered. “The Shardblade pierced me. I fell. Why didn’t I die?”

“You did die.” Szeth opened his eyes again. He lay on an empty rock expanse, his clothing a wet mess . The Frostlands? He felt cold, despite the heat of the sun. A man stood before him, wearing a crisp black and silver uniform. He had dark brown skin like a man from the Makabaki region, but had a pale mark on his right cheek in the shape of a small hooked crescent. He held one hand behind his back, while his other hand tucked something away into his coat pocket. A fabrial of some sort? Glowing brightly?

 

(parts bolded for clarity)

 

Nalan saving Szeth wasn't foreshadowed, but the ability for magic to revive people and fix Shardblade wounds was, was what matters to me.

 

With Jasnah we have:

• Missing corpse
• Rolling spheres near Jasnah (from the goblet Shallan knocked)
• Stormlight healing the fall into the chasms
• Judging on in-world WoR is was fairly easy to figure out her Order could travel to Shadesma

May be this wan't enough for you, but I don't complain. I expected her to show up anyway.

 

Jasnah's literal corpse, yes, we saw that after it was stabbed through and she was described as utterly dead, not moving, with "sightless eyes", and not glowing. Strong evidence someone is dead, when as far as we knew at the time, Stormlight healing was slow to the point of taking hours and would require someone to glow.

 

Shallan found the spheres after Jasnah's corpse went missing:

So they thought she’d jumped overboard. Heart thumping, Shallan felt her way to Jasnah’s cabin, expecting at any moment to trip over the woman’s corpse on the floor. She didn’t. Had the men dragged it above? Shallan entered Jasnah’s cabin and closed the door. It wouldn’t latch shut, so she pulled a box over to block it. She had to do something. She felt her way to one of Jasnah’s trunks, which had been thrown open by the men, its contents— clothing— scattered about. In the bottom, Shallan found the hidden drawer and pulled it open. Light suddenly bathed the cabin. The spheres were so bright they blinded Shallan for a moment, and she had to look away.

 

And, as a note if Brandon were trying for some foreshadowing, saying some of these were drained would have been a perfect time. (Instead, I believe she used spheres sewn into her dress - again, not foreshadowed. And Jasnah was described as "in a thin nightgown", which isn't exactly something you can hide spheres in.)

 

Unless you're talking about spilling her own spheres, in which case she spilled them in her cabin, not Jasnah's:

Still half asleep, Shallan panicked . She scrambled off her cot, accidentally slapping the goblet of mostly drained spheres. Though she used wax to keep it in place, the swat knocked it free and sent spheres tumbling across her cabin.

Stormlight healing in the chasms happened after Jasnah "died", which again puts it against the First Law.

 

WoR text on their ability to travel to Shadesmar also happened after she "died".

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. It's too subjective, I guess. I just find everything about Jasnah's death to be poorly foreshadowed, except for the fact that it was going to happen (the new guy recruit was too obvious). Szeth's revival at least had the magical groundwork laid out.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Moogle

[Aleksiel]

 

I did the exact quote for both the first two. The Radiant in Dalinar's vision has a Regrowth fabrial, and Lift resurrects someone. These happen before Szeth dies. Here is Dalinar's fabrial sighitng in more full fashion:

 

I must admit I have completely forgotten about that fabrial in Dalinar's vision. I can't completely agree Lift resurrected someone, she cured someone who was dying, though I re-read the part and it's arguable whether or not he was dead or barely alive at that point. In my mind he was still alive, but it's not explicitly said. I know the bystanders say he was dead, but they didn't check his pulse or anything. Anyway, it can be either way.

 

I simply did not expect at all Nale to appear from nowhere in the middle of the clashing storms to revive shard-slayed Szeth using a fabrial from ancient times. 

 

 

 

 Jasnah's literal corpse, yes, we saw that after it was stabbed through and she was described as utterly dead, not moving, with "sightless eyes", and not glowing. Strong evidence someone is dead, when as far as we knew at the time, Stormlight healing was slow to the point of taking hours and would require someone to glow.

 

Shallan found the spheres after Jasnah's corpse went missing:

 

And, as a note if Brandon were trying for some foreshadowing, saying some of these were drained would have been a perfect time. (Instead, I believe she used spheres sewn into her dress - again, not foreshadowed. And Jasnah was described as "in a thin nightgown", which isn't exactly something you can hide spheres in.)

 

Unless you're talking about spilling her own spheres, in which case she spilled them in her cabin, not Jasnah's:

Stormlight healing in the chasms happened after Jasnah "died", which again puts it against the First Law.

 

WoR text on their ability to travel to Shadesmar also happened after she "died".

 

Yes, I meant the spheres Shallan knocked in her cabin that 'rolled to the door' and I assumed they went into the corridor after she opened the door, but it's an assumption, not in-text, so it was incorrect to count it as foreshadowing.

 

Jasnah doesn't glow when she soulcast, so I didn't expect her to glow when using stormlight for something else like to heal. And I expected her to have breathed just a little, probably not enough to glow by Kal's standarts, so I was ok with her not glowing and surviving nonetheless. 

 

We got all the knowledge on her Order and stormlight healing after she was stabbed, but before she appeared again, so if you stretch the Brandon's First Law of Magic, it fits in - she doesn't live again until the readers know it's possible for a surgebinder to survive such a wound. Though it would have been better if Shallan had thought about it a little when reading about Elsecallers in in-world WoR. 

 

 

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. It's too subjective, I guess. I just find everything about Jasnah's death to be poorly foreshadowed, except for the fact that it was going to happen (the new guy recruit was too obvious). Szeth's revival at least had the magical groundwork laid out.

 

Yeah, I agree to disagree. Thanks for the fabrial quote!

[Twenty@20]

Lift crawled up to him. His body still warm, but the blood seemed to have stopped flowing. His eyes were closed.

“Too late?” she whispered.

“I don’t know,” Wyndle said, curling up beside her.

Lift leaned forward, touched her forehead to his, and breathed out. A shimmering something left her lips, a little cloud of glowing light. It hung in front of Gawx’s lips.

Come on . . .

It stirred, then drew in through his mouth.

It does seem Gawx was dead and Lift brought him back from dead. My issue is that bringing a dead person back is the holy grail of magic and it should have huge costs. Healing from an injury or illness, however severe, seems par for the course. But even it also should not be without consequences. To my mind, flying or even soulcasting and elsecalling do not level up to bringing the dead back. If reviving the dead can be done so cheaply (Any Edgedancer or Truthwatcher at hand can do it.) then all our heroes and anti-heroes will keep coming back after dying. That will not be good reading at all.

This is the crux of my problem with Szeth's death. It not the question of whether the power of resurrection was foreshadowed adequately or having it codified as a KR power. The fact is using it too much will destroy the story. Szeth was killed by a shardblade. So he must have died instantaneously and his eyes were burnt out. He was killed above the Shattered plains and revived in the Frostlands. So there must have been a lot of time in between, at least an hour. That makes it even more unbelievable. On top of that, he was resurrected with a fabrial. It doesn't get any easier than this. So I think his death and resurrection narrative should have been avoided. Perhaps Kaladin should have only taken away his blade and let him go once he showed repentance. Then Nalan could have teamed up with him..

Perhaps someone can find a WoB if Gawx was actually dead before Lift used regrowth.

Edited October 24, 2014 by Twenty@20

[Moogle]

It does seem Gawx was dead and Lift brought him back from dead. My issue is that bringing a dead person back is the holy grail of magic and it should have huge costs.

 

To be fair, it can't bring back any dead person from the dead. As Nalan says:

Szeth struggled to rise. He managed to make it to his knees, then knelt back on them. “How?” he asked.

“I waited until you crashed to the ground,” the man said, “until you were broken and mangled, your soul cut through, dead for certain. Then, I restored you.”

“Impossible.”

“Not if it is done before the brain dies. Like a drowned man restored to life with the proper ministrations, you could be restored with the right fabrial. If I had waited seconds longer, of course, it would have been too late.”

 

The comparison to drowning is apt, I think. Resurrection can only work if it is done extremely fast. This makes it severely limited. The Frostlands are around the Shattered Plains, so it doesn't seem Nalan traveled for hours with him. (If he did travel away with Szeth, he likely used a Transporation fabrial. He's got a Regrowth fabrial as far as we know, and very very likely an Illumination fabrial.)

Edited October 24, 2014 by Moogle

[Twenty@20]

My bad. I entirely forgot about that conversation. Thanks for the reminder.

At the same time, let me highlight

“The Shardblade pierced me. I fell. Why didn’t I die?”

“You did die.”

“I waited until you crashed to the ground,” the man said, “until you were broken and mangled, your soul cut through, dead for certain. Then, I restored you.”

After emphasizing twice that Szeth was dead before revival, Nalan can't compare him to a drowning man. If the brain is not dead, then a person is not dead. To call a person dead implies none of his organs are working including his brain. Edited October 24, 2014 by Twenty@20

[Moogle]

My bad. I entirely forgot about that conversation. Thanks for the reminder.

At the same time, let me highlight

After emphasizing twice that Szeth was dead before revival, Nalan can't compare him to a drowning man. If the brain is not dead, then a person is not dead. To call a person dead implies none of his organs are working including his brain.

 

Death is not something that can be satisfactorily defined or bounded nowadays. Even if all your organs are not working, we can in theory restart them. Stopped hearts can be shocked back into beating, for example.

 

A hundred years ago, if you had a heart attack, you were dead. Today, not so much. Today, if you die of old age, you're dead. If you're smushed in a car crash, you're dead. In the future, I see no reason why this will still be true.

 

There is a decent theory of death called "information-theoretic death", though it's more theoretical as things go. It may be possible that Cognitive-based healing in the cosmere follows it. However, the cosmere has a verifiable afterlife and Cognitive shadows, so it is entirely possible that you can always be revived in the cosmere.

 

I also note that a smashed-in or exploded brain the cosmere, which should qualify you as information-theoretically dead in the real world, can be healed in the cosmere via goldminds... so it is possible there is no real information-theoretic death in the cosmere.

 

Either way, I have no issue with Nalan calling Szeth dead. Szeth's soul was severed, he was unmoving, his brain was not working, his heart had stopped, etc. As far as fuzzy definitions go, that's pretty solidly in the "dead" camp to me.

Edited October 24, 2014 by Moogle

[Purelake Earthquake]

Argh, so much has happened while I've been trying to write this post

I'm going to quote something from the Sanderson's First Law essay that kills a big portion of my argument:

 

"Resist the urge to use magic to solve problems unless you’ve already explained and shown that aspect of how the magic works. Don’t give the heroes a new power whenever they need one, and be very careful about writing laws into your system just so that you can use them in a single particular situation. (This can make your magic seem flimsy and convenient, even if you HAVE outlined its abilities earlier.)"

 

However, I still believe Jasnah's non-death was fair according to the first law.  The readers understanding is directly proportional to the author's ability to solve conflicts.  We don't know much about Jasnah's magic, so Brandon can't use it to solve major conflicts.  The conflict which Jasnah uses her magic to solve is being attacked by a group of assassins.  And I'm probably going to get a lot of disagreement here, her dying was not the conflict, that was a possible result of the conflict.  Having a knife in your chest is also not a conflict, it's a circumstance, but there are no two forces in conflict.  The conflict has consequences which reach out to the rest of the book, but the conflict itself is introduced in that chapter and it doesn't progress past that chapter.  If you listed out all the major conflicts and antagonizing groups we've seen so far in the SA, this would be way down on that list.

 

Jasnah's not a major character, we've hardly had anything from her viewpoint, the WoR prologue, I don't know of any others.  It's not a deus ex machina because the characters wind up worse off than before the conflict.  Jasnah's gone for who knows how long, and as mentioned before she would have made the rest of the book much easier.  It's not like she killed Sadeas who's been plaguing us since book 1 or stop the everstorm or destroy the Ghostbloods or anything.  In other words the magic isn't used to cheat at anything of importance to the overall plot.

Take a look at this from the essay:

 

If you’re writing a soft magic system, ask yourself “How can they solve this without magic?” or even better, “How can using the magic to TRY to solve the problem here really just make things worse.” (An example of this: The fellowship relies on Gandalf to save them from the Balrog. Result: Gandalf is gone for the rest of that book.)

 

In this case it's not a soft magic system, rather a yet to be revealed aspect of the magic system.  Jasnah relies on her magic to save herself from a group of assassins,  Result: Jasnah is gone for the rest of that book.

Without having Gandalf the fellowship has a much harder time destroying the ring, without Jasnah the main cast have a much harder time dealing with the Everstorm.  In fact she's even solving less of a problem since she's only saving herself.

 

Also, in this case the whole event is spread out very weirdly chronologically.  The conflict happens at the beginning of the book, we're shown the result at the end, and the actual solution itself has yet to be canonically introduced.  So, when does foreshadowing count?  I would propose that for the best results it should be foreshadowed that she could have survived before we're shown that she did.  And we should be foreshadowed somewhat as to how she survived before it shows her doing that.  So, I don't really concern myself much with the Surge of Transportation or Stormlight healing.  I knew she would have some other Surge and I knew she could enter Shadesmar, that was about it.

 

Here's the thing, at the beginning of a book OR series minor problems can be created as a way of introducing story elements, in this case the magic system, by having them be a solve the problem.  We're only 20% through SA after all.  At the beginning of the book/series the reader is trying to figure out what all the pieces are, at the end the characters and reader are using their wit to try and fit together all the pieces to solve a major conflict.  That's when everything needs to be super tightly foreshadowed, when the main conflict(s) are being solved at the end of the sequence that the conflict is pertinent.

 

SA has a lot of set up needed for the magic system, we probably won't have all the pieces of it we need until book 10.  The reader is in a very similar position to the characters.  The characters are just figuring out about the magic, it would make sense it would make sense that they would find out things about it when they're trying to solve minor problems or get out of sticky situations.  They learn about the magic blindly when they need to - necessity is the mother of invention - and when the large problems role around they put together all the pieces, magical and otherwise, in order to solve the problem.

 

 

 

 

And quick comment on the above Szeth conversation, a person is clinically dead if their heart is stopped, tons of people have revived from that.

Edited October 24, 2014 by Purelake Earthquake

[Moogle]

In this case it's not a soft magic system, rather a yet to be revealed aspect of the magic system.  Jasnah relies on her magic to save herself from a group of assassins,  Result: Jasnah is gone for the rest of that book.

Without having Gandalf the fellowship has a much harder time destroying the ring, without Jasnah the main cast have a much harder time dealing with the Everstorm.  In fact she's even solving less of a problem since she's only saving herself.

 

I don't know if I quite agree with this argument.

 

Gandalf was absolutely central to the Fellowship. Losing him was a huge blow, as the party relied on him for everything. From protection to strategy to emotional support, Gandalf was there for everything.

 

Jasnah? Jasnah was centrally important plot-wise to one person: Shallan. And losing Jasnah wasn't that bad a thing for Shallan: it allowed her to grow, and she had no difficulties solving the Oathgate problem. (And honestly, Jasnah may not have solved the Oathgate problem as nicely as Shallan did, for all that I enjoy talking about Jasnah as if she's the only competent person in the cosmere.) Shallan had, at best, temporary difficulties even if they were pretty severe (dealing with slavers) as a result of losing Jasnah.

 

I also disagree that Jasnah's unknown magic is what saved Jasnah from the assassins. Stormlight healing saved her, and the Shadesmar transportation happened because...

 

Because...

 

I'm not sure why. Shallan's character development required it, but that's not an in-world reason.

 

It didn't seem to be necessary. Jasnah and Shallan could have both had fun swimming. Jasnah also could have shredded the assassins with a Shardblade, or Soulcasted them.

 

SA has a lot of set up needed for the magic system, we probably won't have all the pieces of it we need until book 10.  The reader is in a very similar position to the characters.  The characters are just figuring out about the magic, it would make sense it would make sense that they would find out things about it when they're trying to solve minor problems or get out of sticky situations.  They learn about the magic blindly when they need to - necessity is the mother of invention - and when the large problems role around they put together all the pieces, magical and otherwise, in order to solve the problem.

 

I'm also not sure I agree with this. Putting characters in minor conflicts to flesh out their powers and explain them is a commonly used device. Sanderson does it many, many times: Szeth in the Way of Kings is obvious. Kelsier in Mistborn, etc. The issue is... we didn't learn about what Jasnah did. The situation was not used to explain Jasnah's powers.

 

Look at Soulcasting. Jasnah had been with Shallan for weeks on a boring voyage, and she still hadn't taught her how to Soulcast. Even then, she says herself that it seems the Cryptics sent Shallan for Jasnah to train her. She tells Shallan to start practicing Illumination, and completely avoids giving even a cursory overview of how Soulcasting works. A few sentences are all it would take... and Jasnah doesn't give them to Shallan. At this point, I'm pretty confident that Sanderson is actively attempting to avoid explaining the magic systems. I find it hard to believe most people would refuse to teach each other such obviously important things, when a few words would go so far. Jasnah certainly doesn't hesitate to explain the spren.

 

I've pointed out several ways Jasnah's powers could have been foreshadowed. She knows the Surgebinding chart, she knows the names of the ten Surges, and she was able to know Shallan had Illumination. She knows she had Transportation, but never mentions it to Shallan.

 

So... in summary, I still think what she did was against Sanderson's First Law. I grant it's not a clear-cut case, but I think there's no real reason for things to be unclear in this sort of situation. I just don't feel it's that difficult to avoid this sort of thing, particularly for a master of foreshadowing like Sanderson.

Edited October 24, 2014 by Moogle