Twenty@20 Posted October 22, 2014 Report Share Posted October 22, 2014 (edited) Hav is one of the many minor characters in Stormlight Archive. He gets mentioned once in WoK Kaladin could thank Hav for that, for training him to think in terms of “us” and “them.” WoK chapter 57. Wandarsail Hav has a speaking part in WoR I wonder if Hav is in one of these monasteries somewhere, Kaladin thought idly. What would he think of me now? He’d probably be proud. He always had seen guard duty as the most respectable of a soldier’s assignments. WoR chapter 16. Swordmaster This quote suggests that Hav is a honourable soldier and prefers protecting others. He most likely played a significant role in training Kaladin and therefore Kaladin thinks of him as his mentor.Shallan meets Hav during chapter 52(Into the Sky) of WoR when he is again in a protecting role. He also looks like a close confidante of Amaram. Strangely Kaladin and Hav seem unaware of each others presence in the warcamp during WoR considering the fact that Dalinar and Amaram were quite close during a major part of the book. We can also speculate about Hav's reactions to Kaladin's slavery and whether he might have pleaded in Kaladin's favour with Amaram. Also if he comes to learn of Amaram's treachery, his reaction could be interesting. A meeting between Kaladin and Hav at some point in the future may be bad news from Amaram's point of view. I am of course assuming Hav will be with Amaram wherever he goes post-WoR. I hope Mr. Sanderson has plans for Hav and the way he has been portrayed points to a future Radiantship. Comments awaited.. Edited October 22, 2014 by Twenty@20 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted October 22, 2014 Report Share Posted October 22, 2014 (edited) The training to think in terms of "us" and "them" is not what I would call terribly honorable thing, even if Kaladin's grateful to him for it. It doesn't speak particularly well of Kaladin when you read the section: Many people were dying on the other side of the chasm, but Kaladin didn’t feel a thing for them. No itch to heal them, no desire to help. Kaladin could thank Hav for that, for training him to think in terms of “us” and “them.” In a way, Kaladin had learned what his father had talked about. In the wrong way, but it was something. Protect the “us,” destroy the “them.” A soldier had to think like that. So Kaladin hated the Parshendi. They were the enemy. If he hadn’t learned to divide his mind like that, war would have destroyed him. A big part of WoR was Kaladin learning to feel for and protect "them". I may be wrong on my interpretation of that, though. It just seems the Third Ideal is related to that. Edited October 22, 2014 by Moogle 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AerionBFII Posted October 22, 2014 Report Share Posted October 22, 2014 I can't wait to see Hav and Kaladin have a reunion i wonder how Hav will react to Kaladin and his new position as KR. As soon as i saw him in WOR it was the first thing i thought of upon hearing his name. I think he is loyal to Amaram but most likely will side with Amaram against Kaladin not because he is a bad person but because he wont believe the 'rumors'. Here we see loyalty taken to a fault but i think eventually he will join Kaladin. I think the training of thinking "Them" and "us" is more of a coping mechanism and helps Kaladin not destroy himself over the killing we all know how he views that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twenty@20 Posted October 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2014 @ Moogle. I think the 'us versus them' question has two aspects. First, it is undoubtly bad to raise 'us versus them' issues for selfish reasons(fighting for gemhearts and Alethi border fights) or as a way to stereotype people(Kaladin stereotyping all lighteyes as evil and all dark eyes as good). A second aspect of the 'us versus them' is the fight for greater good. When in later books the Knight Radiants talk about Voidbringers as 'us versus them' can we find fault with them? Also in a war loving society where the religion endorses fighting and soldiering is a way of life, can we fault a soldier caught in bad situation trying to cope with the tragedy by thinking in terms of 'us versus them'? This is how soldiers in our world are made to fight because otherwise only mercenaries would be fighting not soldiers. Back to topic, Hav may not become a Bondsmith, but perhaps he may still become a Windrunner because of his protective attribute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted October 22, 2014 Report Share Posted October 22, 2014 @ Moogle. I think the 'us versus them' question has two aspects. First, it is undoubtly bad to raise 'us versus them' issues for selfish reasons(fighting for gemhearts and Alethi border fights) or as a way to stereotype people(Kaladin stereotyping all lighteyes as evil and all dark eyes as good). A second aspect of the 'us versus them' is the fight for greater good. When in later books the Knight Radiants talk about Voidbringers as 'us versus them' can we find fault with them? My issues from the mentality Kaladin adopted is that it allows him to stop caring about the plights of other people. It very easily lets him vilify lighteyes, and it allows him to fight in border wars without a sense of guilt. Perhaps the view can be adapted to being able to fight the Voidbringers... but even then, dehumanizing the listeners is still not something I hope for the protagonists to do. They're a people enslaved. And merely having the view is a slippery slope to being able to dehumanize just about any group. Also in a war loving society where the religion endorses fighting and soldiering is a way of life, can we fault a soldier caught in bad situation trying to cope with the tragedy by thinking in terms of 'us versus them'? This is how soldiers in our world are made to fight because otherwise only mercenaries would be fighting not soldiers. Can we fault them? Not really, in the same way we can't fault Szeth for being raised in a culture that forced him to murder hundreds of people. I don't think Kaladin is wrong when he says he would have been destroyed by the guilt of participating in the war if he hadn't learned to do it. I still don't find it to be an inspiring mindset, and it seems to me like Kaladin lost something precious when he gained the ability to stop caring and just lie in the dirt, uncaring, when people died nearby. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted October 22, 2014 Report Share Posted October 22, 2014 I'm inclined to believe Hav actually knows what Amaram did or at least he knows the gist of it. I mean Amaram had 19 witnesses according to Dalinar, so there are plenty of people in Amaram's camp who are aware the story of the Shards isn't completely true. Let's not forget this is the same army that sacrificed an untrained boy to gain a moment advantage. I highly doubt anyone, who's with Amaram for years is a potential Radiant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twenty@20 Posted October 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2014 (edited) Funnily Moogle, agree with you completely. I have upvoted you. The stereotyping and dehumanizing of people who are different creates a lot of damage. This is specially relevant when there are no good sides in the arena. We have no Knights Radiant to support in our world. @ Aleksiel, you may be right. However my theory is based on the simple belief that among all the wrongs in Amaram's army, Mr. Sanderson showed Hav in a positive light, at least in Kaladin's thoughts. For that sole reason I hope that some good may come out of Hav. Edited October 22, 2014 by Twenty@20 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn Posted October 22, 2014 Report Share Posted October 22, 2014 Funnily Moogle, agree with you completely. I have upvoted you. The stereotyping and dehumanizing of people who are different creates a lot of damage. This is specially relevant when there are no good sides in the arena. We have no Knights Radiant to support in our world. @ Aleksiel, you may be right. However my theory is based on the simple belief that among all the wrongs in Amaram's army, Mr. Sanderson showed Hav in a positive light, at least in Kaladin's thoughts. For that sole reason I hope that some good may come out of Hav. I'm sure we haven't seen the last of Hav, and it should be a great scene when they finally meet up again (who knows, could be back in Alethkar since Kaladin does live in Amaram's fief and Amaram just fled the Shattered Plains), but I have doubts that he'll end up being KR material, even if he is the best of Amaram's army (now that Kaladin is gone). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted October 22, 2014 Report Share Posted October 22, 2014 well, we know hav is a good sergeant instructor, but there's nothing to set him so much apart from the group. and he surely trained thousands of recruits, he may not even remember kaladin, or just vaguely recollect a particularly good spearman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arondell Posted October 22, 2014 Report Share Posted October 22, 2014 I'm sure we haven't seen the last of Hav, and it should be a great scene when they finally meet up again (who knows, could be back in Alethkar since Kaladin does live in Amaram's fief and Amaram just fled the Shattered Plains), but I have doubts that he'll end up being KR material, even if he is the best of Amaram's army (now that Kaladin is gone). Actually based on the message Amaram sent to Restares at the end of Words of Radiance Amaram was heading for Urithiru. That crisis we now have, a terrible one. The Heralds will return. How can they not, with the problems we now face? But many will die. So very many . Nalan send that it is worth the loss. Regardless, I will have more information soon. When I next write you, I hope to do so from Urithiru. Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 1060). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted October 22, 2014 Report Share Posted October 22, 2014 Actually based on the message Amaram sent to Restares at the end of Words of Radiance Amaram was heading for Urithiru. Yeah, but he didn't take his men with him, because he wanted to be unnoticed. Amaram's awaiting a trial now after all. It's possible Hav stayed behind. Also, what about Taln? Is Amaram bringing him to Urithiru as well? I didn't really catch this part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arondell Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 Yeah, but he didn't take his men with him, because he wanted to be unnoticed. Amaram's awaiting a trial now after all. It's possible Hav stayed behind. Also, what about Taln? Is Amaram bringing him to Urithiru as well? I didn't really catch this part. My read on it was that he simply had his soldiers helping to organize the trip out to Urithiru. All of his soldiers were away, and his remaining guards had gone to oversee the exodus. Even with Amaram’s reputation, he’d been able to pass into the camp with ease. Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 1060). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. And... Amaram spared a glance for the trunks on the back of the coach; they contained a precious cargo, including all of his maps, notes, and theories. Should he have left those with his soldiers? Bringing the force of fifty into Dalinar’s warcamp would have drawn attention for certain, even with the chaos here, so he’d ordered them to meet him on the Plains. Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 1060). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. So as far as I can tell all his soldiers will be with him and yes he does appear to be taking Taln with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 If he's heading for the Plains, doesn't that mean he's just going straight to Urithiru? The Unclaimed Hills or the Frostlands or the Eastern Crownlands are the only other ways out from the Warcamps. It seems the only direction that could be called Plains would be the Shattered Plains, and that's the evacuation to Urithiru. Perhaps we're wrong in our assumption that he's escaping? Maybe he just thinks his humiliation is nothing more than another social blunder he can weather and be stronger for? Or is this all expressly dealt with and it's simply been too long since I read the denouement of that book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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