Could a coinshot push on salt?

[Newan]

I believe that a coinshot could push on pure sodium, but could one steelpush salt?  Can steel and iron allomancy effect compounds with metals in them, or just pure metals?

 

Inquisitors can see trace amounts of metal in people.  They could be seeing the ionic compounds, or maybe they are only seeing the tiny amounts of pure metals.  

 

 

Allomancy works because the shapes of the molecules in the metals act as a gateway to the power of Preservation, similarly to how the Aons from Elantris can access the Dor.  We have word that the planet chooses how the magic system manifests, but I think (not sure on this one) that Brandon has also said that since ascending, Sazed could change which metals powered which powers.  Because of this, I don't know if Scadrial or Leras originally chose the sixteen allomantic metals.  

 

As far as we know, steelpushing and ironpulling can effect any kind of metal except aluminum and some of its alloys. If you can't push or pull on an alloy of aluminum, this means that the force isn't acting directly on the metal atoms.  For example, if duralumin is allomantically inert, it shows that the force must act on the compound, or else you would still be able to push on the 4% copper in the alloy.  

 

 

 

My theory is that an allomancer can only push or pull on pure metals and alloys.  The compounds that can be pushed or pulled were chosen by Scadrial or Leras.  An allomancer cannot push or pull on an ionic compound because even thought they have metals in them, they are not metals.  

[king of nowhere]

I wondered on that too, because it seems like a contradiction.

on one hand, it's faiirly clear that allomancers cannot push/pull on salts. most of the ground is salt of some kind, or at least contains metal ions, and especially many materials used for constructions. so if allomancers could push on metal ions, they should be able to push more or less everywhere.

But then, inquisitors can see people from the trace metals in them. and all the metal in the human body is in the form of salt. iron, magnesium, sodium, potassium, all of that would actually be unstable as metal in the body, and would be oxydized spontaneously. there are other metal contaminants, mostly stuff that we assume with food, but they're generally in oxydized form too. the only metal in metallic form present in the human body would be gold, I think, but there's a fifth of a milligram of it in the whole body. that's just enough that you may be able to see it with naked eye, if you look from up close. A bit difficult to accept that an inquisitor can see a whole body in detail from such a small amount, albeit it is probably the correct explanation.

It is also possible, since the terrain near luthadel contained lots of metals, that water contained a relatively high concentration of metall dust suspended in it, and so the average scadrian would have significant amounts of metal in him. maybe my estimate on how much metal ccan be in metallic form in a human body would only be true in the modern world of highly purified drinking water.

[Newan]

Yeah that might be true.  We know that the Lord Ruler modified people to survive being around so much ash.  Maybe he modified them to survive having more metal in their bodies as well.  But it does seem like a stretch.  

 

Perhaps all of those ions are allomantically active, but each of the atoms act as a separate anchor.  That way you could still see them with allomancy, but they would be terrible to push off of.  

 

 

I wonder about the relationship between mass of metal and the ability to push off of it.  We know that it's difficult to lurch someone's vials because the metal in it is in tiny flakes.  Is it easier to pull on one chunk of metal than it is to pull on a pile of flakes of that metal with equal mass?  Is it easier to push on one chunk of sodium than it is to push on an equal amount of sodium atoms, dispersed evenly through a salt crystal?  

[Lightsworn Panda]

Considering how salt is a compound between Sodium and Chlorine, which is a (pretty dangerous gas), I don't think Inquisitors could push salt. The chlorine atoms in salt could possibly counteract the sodium.

 

Hmm... this brings up the interesting possibility of a over-spiked Inquisitor separating metal atoms from objects.

[Link Start]

 TLR could push on trace metals inside someone, but not other allomancers, not even Elend. This suggests that, no, in general allomancers cannot push on salts, but an exceptionally strong pull/push can. Inquisitors can see them, but no push on people. This might be because the spikes gives them extra power, but then, Zane also had a spike and he doesn't appear to be able to see like inquisitor.

 I guess that the inquisitor's ability to see metals inside people was something special given by hemalurgy because the placement of the spikes in place of their eyes, like the Koloss's spikes can change their body and so on.

[Windrunner]

Any Coinshot or Lurcher could develop the ability to see like an Inquisitor with enough time and practice. I think it's probably just a savant level ability.

[Twenty@20]

I think common salt cannot be moved with allomancy. Salts, in general, are considered to have different properties from their constituent metals and not simply a mixture of their constituting elements.

In the cosmere I would expect that salts have a strong cognitive identity that is entirely different from the the cognitive identity of their constituting elements simply because people eat salt, not sodium and chloride.

I understand that allomancy is inspired by metallurgy but not every metallic chemistry can be applied to it. Allomancy is Mr. Sanderson's imagination. Also cognitive identity is important in the cosmere. The ship in WoR has a separate cognitive identity from the various materials from which it was constructed. Shai in TES says that "The Cognitive is how an object is viewed and how it viewed itself". Common salt is not thought as a metal in lay terms nor I hope it views itself as a metal. In nutshell, I believe it is illogical to expect formal chemistry concepts to apply to Allomancy.

Will mercury and molten iron be affected? That will be interesting to find out. I want to clarify that I know the Cognitive is not as relevant on Scadrial as it is on Roshar, so I don't know if my line of argument holds in the context of Scadrial.

Edited October 26, 2014 by Twenty@20

[Newan]

I think common salt cannot be moved with allomancy. Salts, in general, are considered to have different properties from their constituent metals and not simply a mixture of their constituting elements.

In the cosmere I would expect that salts have a strong cognitive identity that is entirely different from the the cognitive identity of their constituting elements simply because people eat salt, not sodium and chloride.

I understand that allomancy is inspired by metallurgy but not every metallic chemistry can be applied to it. Allomancy is Mr. Sanderson's imagination. Also cognitive identity is important in the cosmere. The ship in WoR has a separate cognitive identity from the various materials from which it was constructed. Shai in TES says that "The Cognitive is how an object is viewed and how it viewed itself". Common salt is not thought as a metal in lay terms nor I hope it views itself as a metal. In nutshell, I believe it is illogical to expect formal chemistry concepts to apply to Allomancy.

This makes sense, but then why could the Inquisitors use their allomancy to see?  

[Twenty@20]

This makes sense, but then why could the Inquisitors use their allomancy to see?

I was expecting and also dreading this question. I generally know that the current consensus is that inquisitors are steel and iron savants which allows them to see metals inside the human body but I am not up to date with the details. Can someone point out a few good posts which discuss inquisitor vision?

[Dahak]

This makes sense, but then why could the Inquisitors use their allomancy to see?  

 

According to the Inquisitor who thinks about how it works "Inquisitors can see metal too diffuse to be affected with Allomancy."

[Shardcellist]

To my understanding, there are three ways one becomes Allomantically powerful.

• One receives "extra strong" Allomantic powers. This can happen from ingesting Lerasium (or an alloy), like Elend, or from being born stronger than normal, like Vin. You could argue that this doesn't really count, but instead establishes a base point of power.
  
• Savanthood. Using the powers excessively increases your level of ability with them, as we saw with Spook. One can increase one's power without fully becoming a savant; regardless, the more one uses Allomancy, the stronger one becomes.
  
• Hemalurgy: We have a WOB that receiving a Hemalurgic spike for a power one already has "doubles" one's power. I would assume that this is based, to an extent, on the power of the Allomancer spiked, more an "addition" than a "multiplied by two".
  

Another WOB said that Kelsier and Zane represented the higher end of what was possible with Allomantic steel. This makes sense; Kelsier's specialties were steel and iron, and he had a highly developed level of skill. In addition, he used them a lot and may have, if not become a savant, started along the path (at least, this is the impression I received). Zane, on the other hand, had that Hemalurgic spike in his back doubling his power.

 

Now to Inquisitors. I don't have my copy of The Hero of Ages with me, so feel free to correct this, but as I recall, most Inquisitors had nine spikes, most of which were steel. I got the impression that they had two spikes for steel, and possibly two for iron. (I could be wrong on this.) This would give them the doubled power and control that we saw in Zane. However, their near-constant use would grant savanthood, which would add even more power. Between the two, they would be stronger in these than anyone but the Lord Ruler himself.

 

To connect to the overall point, I think that the level accessible through Allomancy depends on the level of power gained. Inquisitors, as I recall, could only see trace metals in the bloodstream. However, if one had enough skill and power, they could probably (theoretically) reach a point when they could affect smaller and smaller bits of metal, down to the atomic level.

[Redbird]

I think seeing with steel and iron lines may have had to do with an inquisitors inhuman physiology , as they changed, allowing them to see more minute detail in iron lines, but not necessarily act upon them, also there is the kind of change in hearing of a blind person, it grows no more acute, they just have learned to interpret the input. Basically they have no real sight to distract them from iron lines.

.

But the greater the sensitivity, there comes the disadvantage of over stimulation, sort of like a greater amount of light can blind one with normal eyes, as in when Vin throws pewter dust at an inquisitor. 

[Newan]

Now to Inquisitors. I don't have my copy of The Hero of Ages with me, so feel free to correct this, but as I recall, most Inquisitors had nine spikes, most of which were steel. I got the impression that they had two spikes for steel, and possibly two for iron. (I could be wrong on this.) This would give them the doubled power and control that we saw in Zane. However, their near-constant use would grant savanthood, which would add even more power. Between the two, they would be stronger in these than anyone but the Lord Ruler himself.

 

I'm going by memory too, but I think that inquisitors each had four steel spikes, each of which gave a physical allomantic power.  I don't think they had any iron spikes (blessings of potency).  

 

I think that if an inquisitor hadn't become a savant, it would be slightly weaker than the average natural mistborn because of Hemalurgic Decay.  That just goes to show how powerful it is to be a savant.

[Redbird]

As well as their pushes and pulls were from something bigger than any normal person.

[Shardcellist]

I'm going by memory too, but I think that inquisitors each had four steel spikes, each of which gave a physical allomantic power.  I don't think they had any iron spikes (blessings of potency).  

 

I think that if an inquisitor hadn't become a savant, it would be slightly weaker than the average natural mistborn because of Hemalurgic Decay.  That just goes to show how powerful it is to be a savant.

 

I guess I wasn't entirely clear: two spikes granting iron Allomancy. I didn't mean to imply that Inquisitors received Kandra blessings.

[Comatose]

Regarding Savanthood, it is important to remember that the effects vary with the metal, with pewter and tin having the most dramatic effects and bronze and copper having the least (interesting that the extremes are both internal metals).  It is also important to remember that near constant burning is required, which is why Inquisitors become savants - they need to burn iron or steel constantly in order to see, just as Spookj took to burning tin constantly in Hero of Ages. 

 

Zane and Kelsier, on the other hand, were not savants.  Zane's power came from both his spike, and, I assume, a lot of practice, whereas Kelsier consciously focused on iron and steel in his training.  For this reason, I think you can separate allomantic power, skill, and talent/affinity.  Vin, for example, had what I would argue is more of a talent/affinity for allomancy, which she was born with, as well as power.  She gained skill through her training.  Elend, on the other hand, was more on the power end of things.  Zane's spike increased his power and his affinity, but he would have still needed practice to bring out his skill.  Kelsier obviously had some natural talent, but a large part of what made him powerful was his trained skill with the metals. 

 

The Inquisitors, like Zane, gain their abilities through a combination of all three.  Their spikes grant them increased power and affinity for the metal, and then they develop this talent as well as skill through constant burning.  When Brandon was talking about Zane and Kelsier

I think he was referring to the fact that both of their skill levels were on the upper limit.  I would, however, argue that Elend's power would be superior to both. 

 

The Lord Ruler would arguably be the epitome of all three of these areas. 

 

Now to apply this analysis to the original question of seeing trace metals.  I believe this is a product of savanthood and hemalurgy, which involves an increase in skill and affinity.  The Inquisitors can see these things because of the precision they gain through constant practice, and the increase in affinity they have for the metal.  While their power is also increased, I think a large number of spikes/lerasium would be needed to endow them with enough power to affect the metals in compounds. 

 

Since I'm posting this several weeks too late, and I feel like I am rambling and off topic, I'll stop talking now.  Sorry if none of this makes sense.