Elhokar is not a Proto-Radiant

[Kier]

Beware! Spoilers may follow...

 

I have up to this most recent re-reading of WoR believed Elhokar has been seeing Cryptics in mirrors and the corner of his eye. Alluding to his possibly becoming a Knights Radiant. 

 

However, When I read the following I can't give that credence. 

 

 

Elhokar made to leave. He stopped at the door, not looking at Kaladin.
"When you came, the shadows went away."
"The...Shadows?"
"I saw them in mirrors, in the corners of my eyes. I could swear I even heard them whispering, but your firghtened them. I haven't seen them since. There's something about you. Don't try to deny it."  - Pg 967 Chapter 80 - To Fight The Rain - Words of Radiance.

 

I now think that what Elhokar was seeing, was not Cryptics but some other Odium spren. That were frightened off by Syl and Kaladin. It is still possible that they were Cryptics as we know that Cryptics and Honor Spren don't see eye to eye. However, if the Cryptics were looking to bond Elhokar, I don't think they would let the appearance of one honor spren dissuade their attempts.

This may be weak, but for now, its where I stand. Discuss. 

[Aonar]

According to WoB, Kaladin has met two Lightweavers. I wouldn't say that this immediately disproves your theory, but it heavily suggests that Elhokar is a Radiant.

[Kier]

Mmmm. Well thats troubling...

Doesn't disprove anything, as you said, but we really don't have ANYONE that I can think of that is near as good of a candidate for being a Lightweaver as Elhokar...Hence why up until I read that I did think he was going to be one. 

Something still is off for me though, I Can't see the Cryptics being "frightened off" by one Honor Spren if they are looking to bond him. Maybe its someone else, or maybe Elhokar did something to push the Cryptics away from him? 

However, Elhokar at the end of WoR is making self-exploration attempts, which from Shallans story is how your solidify the bond within the Lightweavers... mmmm.

 

[lookingglass]

According to WoB, Kaladin has met two Lightweavers. I wouldn't say that this immediately disproves your theory, but it heavily suggests that Elhokar is a Radiant.

 

I know most people assume that Elhokar is seeing Cryptics but he doesn't seem like he has the characteristics of a lightweaver. Shallan  first saw pattern in her drawings but Elhokar sees his spren in the mirrors. I just think that if they both are from the same order their spren would show themselves in the same way. Also unless paranoia can be considered the art of spinning long tales on alternative death scenarios then he is no artist and having creative streak was essential to becoming a lightweaver.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

So there is this thread: "I think Elhokar is a radiant" wherein much of this has been discussed if you would like to chime in over there. 

 

 

According to WoB, Kaladin has met two Lightweavers. I wouldn't say that this immediately disproves your theory, but it heavily suggests that Elhokar is a Radiant.

 

Kaladin has met both Shallan and Hoid/Wit, both of whom are Lightweavers, so this WoB implies nothing about Elhokar's Radiant potential or standing. 

[Windrunner]

Peter has cast doubt on whether or not we should consider Hoid in that count.

[Moogle]

Kaladin has met both Shallan and Hoid/Wit, both of whom are Lightweavers, so this WoB implies nothing about Elhokar's Radiant potential or standing. 

 

Hoid's not a Lightweaver, as that is an order of Knights Radiant. The Lightweaving that Hoid does is different than the Lightweaving that Shallan does, even if they're very similar (and might possibly share the same name, though I strongly suspect Sanderson will change the name for the magic in Liar). If he doesn't change the name, Hoid's still not a Lightweaver, he's a jesk.

 

Overall, I think there's a strong case to be made that the WoB doesn't refer to Hoid. It might, but that's not enough to claim it has no bearing on the Elhokar discussion.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

Peter has cast doubt on whether or not we should consider Hoid in that count.

 

Time will tell I suppose, but I can't help but think that Peter is just trolling us with that one and that Hoid is still the other lightweaver. 

[lol_king]

Tien could be the other lightweaver, we know shallan and kaladin started showing signs very early, so he's not too young. He's much like shallan in how he can see beauty in simple things (rocks). and he's good at art (he carves a detailed horse for kaladin). So even if he died he could have been a proto radiant, ym died too and he was one.

[kaellok]

What Elhokar was seeing is described in exactly the same way as the spren that Shallan saw.  Whether Elhokar is a proto-Radiant or not is up for question, but when an author describes things in precisely the same way it's almost always a clue to the readers that they look the same or are the same.  Occasionally it's done on purpose to confuse or fool the readers in a way that would be impossible using a different medium, and is generally done by authors that rely upon cheap tricks to keep their audience guessing.  In the thread that Green Hoodie Mistborn linked, maxal proposes that the spren were interested in Elhokar because he is the king.  This allows the spren to be cryptic spren that were looking in on Elhokar just because, and they left rather than deal with Syl, spren of a type they don't like.

[Moogle]

I don't think that the Cryptics (since it seems very likely that it was them) were necessarily chased away by Syl.

 

As an alternative, they were attracted to Elhokar because he had a lot of lies, and the potential to become introspective and realize his own character flaws.

 

He was, perhaps, eventually going to admit he was something of a terrible person and king and lacking in many virtues, which is what would let him become a Lightweaver. Knowing yourself, being able to stare unflinching at your flaws and know they are there seems to be a trait required to be a Lightweaver.

 

Except... then Kaladin came on the scene, and inspired Elhokar to be a better person and a better king. Rather than become introspective and understand his own flaws, Elhokar is now deluding himself into thinking he's better than he is, and is going to work to become a "good king" in earnest. This is counter to being a Lightweaver - Lightweavers convince others to be different people, they do not delude themselves (as Hoid puts it, you have to know the truth before you can create lies) - and so he is no longer a candidate for the Lightweavers. This caused the Cryptics to go away and find others.

 

This theory is sort of half-baked (Elhokar does admit some flaws to Kaladin, though I'd argue he's still entirely unaware of the majority of them as he thinks he's a good king himself), but we really have very little to go on.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Moogle

[Savanorn]

I don't think that the Cryptics (since it seems very likely that it was them) were necessarily chased away by Syl.

 

As an alternative, they were attracted to Elhokar because he had a lot of lies, and the potential to become introspective and realize his own character flaws.

 

He was, perhaps, eventually going to admit he was something of a terrible person and king and lacking in many virtues, which is what would let him become a Lightweaver. Knowing yourself, being able to stare unflinching at your flaws and know they are there seems to be a trait required to be a Lightweaver.

 

Except... then Kaladin came on the scene, and inspired Elhokar to be a better person and a better king. Rather than become introspective and understand his own flaws, Elhokar is now deluding himself into thinking he's better than he is, and is going to work to become a "good king" in earnest. This is counter to being a Lightweaver - Lightweavers convince others to be different people, they do not delude themselves (as Hoid puts it, you have to know the truth before you can create lies) - and so he is no longer a candidate for the Lightweavers. This caused the Cryptics to go away and find others.

 

This theory is sort of half-baked (Elhokar does admit some flaws to Kaladin, though I'd argue he's still entirely unaware of the majority of them as he thinks he's a good king himself), but we really have very little to go on.

 

Does he? 

 

As of the end of WoR, I thought he realised he was a bad king. Although I could be less than accurate. 

[Aleksiel]

Cryptics were seen around Vargo as well, they are said to plan and watch. It's possible they were drawn to see what the king of one of the most powerful nations will do. Though this doesn't explain why Elhokar was able to see them, but Pattern can't hide like Syl or Wyndle, so there's that. However, Pattern was able to hide from Syl after the duel and their types do seem to dislike each other. However, Elhokar seems to be talking about more than one Cryptic and there's no reason for that if he had attracted one in particular as a proto-surgebinder unless several have been discussing who to bond him. I really don't know how it works.

 

I'm really interested in the 'Kaladin has met two Lightweavers' info as this is the first time I read this. Wouldn't it mean Kal has already met two people that have sworn at least the first Oath or do we consider one a Lightweaver the moment a cryptic becomes interested in that person?

[Bloodfalcon]

I've always taken the two Lightweavers comment to include Hoid. IIRC, Brandon specifically used the term Lightweaving to describe what Hoid does at one point. I could be remembering another source, but that's what I remember. Of course, it is a different version of Lightweaving - native to another planet - but that doesn't mean it isn't the same thing. If you'll recall, those magic systems were collected at one point, so there is no reason to believe that just because it's on Roshar it couldn't be the same as the original. The only absolute difference is the spren bond, but I don't think that is what distinguishes the two Lightweavers. 

And I think Elhokar's note on the figures leaving is only meant to indicate his problem is related to spren, and not just personal delusions. It actually doesn't prove anything either way. If Elhokar isn't seeing them because he's a Lightweaver himself, it could be because another Lightweaver or just the Cryptics as a society have sent a Cryptic to spy and/or assess Elhokar's potential. Either way you wouldn't want to be confronted by another Radiant's spren, but the fact is Cryptics already don't want to confront Honorspren. I don't think you'll be able to riddle it out just yet. 

I'm going to look for a Yolen-Lightweaver reference. 

EDIT: Here's one...

 

INTERVIEW: Mar 29th, 2014

WOR Signing Report - Nicrosil (Paraphrased)

NICROSIL

Just got back, asked a few questions. Please note that these are super paraphrased, but I did see someone's IPhone on the table, so we hopefully have a transcript!

QUESTION

Have we seen another Lightweaver?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The power? Yes. The Order? No.

 

Edited October 20, 2014 by Bloodfalcon

[Aleksiel]

Well, if he meant Lightwear in meaning of someone who can do Lightweaving as power/surge, then there are three people with it that Kal has met: Shallan, Hoid (though Brandon might change the term he uses in the Liar to make Yolish and Rosharian Lightweaving move distinguished) and Renarin (who shares the Illusion surge with Shallan, so it's reasonable to think he's also capable of Lightweaving). So Kal having met two Lightweavers only makes sense to me if we talk about the Order.

 

edit: both WoB are post-WoR, so we haven't met another member of the Lightweaver Order, but it's possible Kal has, thus it must be someone from his past. Tarah? I don't know why I think of her, I just suspect there'll be more of her, though I can only speculate. I doubt it's Tien, because he would have shared with Kal seeing and talking to a spren, plus he kind of counts as someone we've seen and the Lightweaver member is not someone we've met.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Oudeis]

I know most people assume that Elhokar is seeing Cryptics but he doesn't seem like he has the characteristics of a lightweaver. Shallan  first saw pattern in her drawings but Elhokar sees his spren in the mirrors. I just think that if they both are from the same order their spren would show themselves in the same way. Also unless paranoia can be considered the art of spinning long tales on alternative death scenarios then he is no artist and having creative streak was essential to becoming a lightweaver.

 

That's not the first time Shallan met Pattern. She met him when she was a young child, and managed to speak up to the Third Ideal (if Lightweavers need to speak the same number of ideals before summoning a Shardblade as other Orders do). She only started seeing him as patterns when she was ready to reforge her bond with him.

 

Elhokar hasn't shown any artistic talent, but artistry is a feminine art. For a lighteyes, especially the King, he's not allowed to try creative pursuits. He even needs to hire a man to make fun of people on his own behalf. For all we know, he's a flutist of rare skill, or a genius molder of clay, or a poet to break your heart; since he's socially forbidden from trying any of these things, neither he nor we will ever know.

 

Well, if he meant Lightwear in meaning of someone who can do Lightweaving as power/surge, then there are three people with it that Kal has met: Shallan, Hoid (though Brandon might change the term he uses in the Liar to make Yolish and Rosharian Lightweaving move distinguished) and Renarin (who shares the Illusion surge with Shallan, so it's reasonable to think he's also capable of Lightweaving). So Kal having met two Lightweavers only makes sense to me if we talk about the Order.

 

edit: both WoB are post-WoR, so we haven't met another member of the Lightweaver Order, but it's possible Kal has, thus it must be someone from his past. Tarah? I don't know why I think of her, I just suspect there'll be more of her, though I can only speculate. I doubt it's Tien, because he would have shared with Kal seeing and talking to a spren, plus he kind of counts as someone we've seen and the Lightweaver member is not someone we've met.

 

This is an excellent point.

[Bloodfalcon]

Well, if he meant Lightwear in meaning of someone who can do Lightweaving as power/surge, then there are three people with it that Kal has met: Shallan, Hoid (though Brandon might change the term he uses in the Liar to make Yolish and Rosharian Lightweaving move distinguished) and Renarin (who shares the Illusion surge with Shallan, so it's reasonable to think he's also capable of Lightweaving). So Kal having met two Lightweavers only makes sense to me if we talk about the Order.

 

edit: both WoB are post-WoR, so we haven't met another member of the Lightweaver Order, but it's possible Kal has, thus it must be someone from his past. Tarah? I don't know why I think of her, I just suspect there'll be more of her, though I can only speculate. I doubt it's Tien, because he would have shared with Kal seeing and talking to a spren, plus he kind of counts as someone we've seen and the Lightweaver member is not someone we've met.

Good point I suppose on the WoB. Tarah is really the only person that fits the bill though. We've met everyone else he's mentioned so far, I believe. I still think it is pretty plain though - "Lightweaver" having multiple sources is what that hint suggested. Although if you really get picky, I suppose Brandon could have been saying there is another character we've met that is slated to join the Lightweavers, but he/she doesn't count yet (and then the WoB I linked is talking about a separate matter in essence). 

Also, I'm pretty sure that sharing the Illumination surge doesn't make Renarin able to Lightweave. Their abilities both manipulate the same concept, but I don't think that means that is the Lightweaving surge. 

EDIT: Forgot an important word. 

Edited October 20, 2014 by Bloodfalcon

[Aleksiel]

Also, I'm pretty sure that sharing the Illumination surge doesn't make Renarin able to Lightweave. Their abilities both manipulate the same concept, but I don't think that means that is the Lightweaving surge. 

EDIT: Forgot an important word. 

 

 

Lightweaving seems to be part of the Illusion surge that both Shallan and Renarin have; Brandon has said surges work essentially the same for the Orders that share them, so unless Lightweaving is a combination of Illusion and Transformation, there's no reason for Ren not to be able to Lightweave. While Pattern mentions Shallan transforming the deserters, there's not conclusive evidence Lightweaving is limited to Lightweavers Order only. The AA links it to the spiritual realm, which doesn't point towards Transformation involvement (because that's Cognitive realm, not Spiritual), but the credibility of the AA is questionable, though the author's familiarity with Yolish Lightweaving gives it some points in my book about this part.

 

What Hoid does isn't the same as what Shallan do, yet both count as the power to Lightweave, therefor there are different kinds of Lightweaving. For now I'm inclined to believe Ren is capable of Lightweaving.

[Kier]

I would say Ren is able to lightweave, just like a skybreaker will be able to do the 1 of the 3 lashings of a windrunner. The one that deals with gravitation, maybe the one that pulls stuff as well, giving an object its own gravitational pull, but part of me feels like that's partially a combination of both those because somewhere atmospheric pressure is also described as "vacuum" so... yeah.

Now, the Cryptics maybe just following Elhokar to make plans is interesting. I still don't think they would be scared off by just Syl though, maybe they needed him to be scared though to pressure Dalinar? Causing him to further his bond? 

Now I'm just grasping at straws...
 

[Bloodfalcon]

Lightweaving seems to be part of the Illusion surge that both Shallan and Renarin have; Brandon has said surges work essentially the same for the Orders that share them, so unless Lightweaving is a combination of Illusion and Transformation, there's no reason for Ren not to be able to Lightweave. While Pattern mentions Shallan transforming the deserters, there's not conclusive evidence Lightweaving is limited to Lightweavers Order only. The AA links it to the spiritual realm, which doesn't point towards Transformation involvement (because that's Cognitive realm, not Spiritual), but the credibility of the AA is questionable, though the author's familiarity with Yolish Lightweaving gives it some points in my book about this part.

 

What Hoid does isn't the same as what Shallan do, yet both count as the power to Lightweave, therefor there are different kinds of Lightweaving. For now I'm inclined to believe Ren is capable of Lightweaving.

I think I didn't explain my thought well. Shallan and Renarin share a surge - Illumination - but that does not mean that is the Lightweaving surge. I'll be very very surprised if the title that defines the Order is based soley on one of the surges it utilizes. If a skybreaker uses a Gravitation surge, he may be using one of the lashings as they are called, but he is not performing an action that I would consider Windrunning. And maybe not every Order works the same way, but I'm pretty sure both Orders aren't "Lightweaving." In fact, your evidence above suggesting we have seen 3 Lightweavers might actually be what supports that distinction the most considering what we know. If what Renarin does is Lightweaving, someone needs to convince Brandon to start renaming abilities/groups far far before Liar is a concern...

[Kier]

Lightweaving is simply the act of using Illumination to change light into a pattern and create images. Truthwatchers use it to see the future somehow, Lightweavers use it to trick people and make illusions. Lightweavers are more adept at using illumination in the present, and do so. Truthwaters use it probably in conjunction with progression to see the future. 

thats how I see it. Also, A skybreaker using the lashings to fly with the winds, like Kaladin is windrunning. just like a windrunner.

[Oudeis]

I'm hopping on the camp that "Renarin has the ability to do Lightweaving". WoB has stated that while each Order has unique abilities based on the bonding of the two Surges, he says that each individual Surge will typically act the same between them all.

 

Balance of evidence seems to indicate that Renarin will use the Illumination Surge in a manner very, very similar to the way that Shallan uses it. It's technically possible that this isn't the case, but with what we know, that strains credulity. It requires some mental gymnastics to accept, and a ton of speculation and assumption.

[Aleksiel]

I think I didn't explain my thought well. Shallan and Renarin share a surge - Illumination - but that does not mean that is the Lightweaving surge. I'll be very very surprised if the title that defines the Order is based soley on one of the surges it utilizes. If a skybreaker uses a Gravitation surge, he may be using one of the lashings as they are called, but he is not performing an action that I would consider Windrunning. And maybe not every Order works the same way, but I'm pretty sure both Orders aren't "Lightweaving." In fact, your evidence above suggesting we have seen 3 Lightweavers might actually be what supports that distinction the most considering what we know. If what Renarin does is Lightweaving, someone needs to convince Brandon to start renaming abilities/groups far far before Liar is a concern...

 

Lightweaving isn't one of the ten surges (though I see I incorrectly called it a surge in a previous post), it's likely a sub-serge of Illumination, like Growth is a sub-surge of Progression. It's only reasonable to think one who has access to a certain surge can use its sub-surges as well. Only if Lightweaving is not part of the Illumination surge can I agree Ren won't be able to use it.

 

Though I agree it does feel a bit odd to have two Orders who Lightweave and one Order called after it.

[Moogle]

Does he? 

 

As of the end of WoR, I thought he realised he was a bad king. Although I could be less than accurate.

 

This was the main bit I was referring to:

Elhokar narrowed his eyes at Kaladin. “So you do still speak your mind. Even after the trouble it brought you . Tell me. Do you think me a bad king, bridgeman?”

“Yes.”

The king drew in a sharp breath, still holding Kaladin by the arms.

I could do it right here, Kaladin realized. Strike the king down. Put Dalinar on the throne. No hiding, no secrets, no cowardly assassination. A fight, him and me. That seemed a more honest way to be about it.

Sure, Kaladin would probably be executed, but he found that didn’t bother him. Should he do it, for the good of the kingdom? He could imagine Dalinar’s anger. Dalinar’s disappointment. Death didn’t bother Kaladin, but failing Dalinar . . . Storms.

The king let go and stalked away. “Well, I did ask,” he muttered to himself. “I merely have to win you over as well . I will figure this out. I will be a king to be remembered.”

...

“Instead, I overreacted to your challenge of Amaram. You weren’t the one who ruined our chance against Sadeas. It was me. Dalinar was right. Again. I’m so tired of him being right, and me being wrong. In light of that, I am not at all surprised that you find me a bad king.”

 

Here he's completely sidestepping the issue (I can see why you'd think I'm a bad king, but I'm goig to win you over!) and I get the impression he's working towards being a better person.

He does mention being a bad king at the end in a huge fit of self-pity and lack of self confidence, but he's drunk and bleeding at that point so it doesn't count as far as I'm concerned. I'm also not convinced he's actually acknowledging that he's a horrible king when he's doing that, and it's more him having an anxious breakdown or something. It's certainly not sober self-reflection.

 

Overall the evidence is weak for my theory so I don't know. It's a mystery.

 

 

Regarding the Cryptics hanging around Taravangian, he's never seen them like Elhokar has as far as we know. It's also very possible they were just hanging around Shallan.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Moogle

[Bloodfalcon]

Lightweaving is simply the act of using Illumination to change light into a pattern and create images. Truthwatchers use it to see the future somehow, Lightweavers use it to trick people and make illusions. Lightweavers are more adept at using illumination in the present, and do so. Truthwaters use it probably in conjunction with progression to see the future. 

thats how I see it. Also, A skybreaker using the lashings to fly with the winds, like Kaladin is windrunning. just like a windrunner.

 

I can totally understand how this seems logical, but I've never seen any evidence for those abilities coming solely from those surges and being attached to those names directly. Kaladin flies through the air using one Lashing in particular to compound the pull of gravity on his body in a specific direction. He calls it a lashing, not Windrunning, and though that seems like what the Order title would be based on, I don't think it's for us to define. The exact same thing applies to Lightweaving. I think it seems like a direct correlation to the name of the Order, but calling what another Order does "Lightweaving" doesn't sit well with me unless there is some WoB I missed in the last couple months or a thread where Peter weighs in on the nomeclature.