Hemalurgic decay organized discussion

[killersquirrel59]

I've seen this come up in many threads but have yet to see a thread devoted specifically to the topic so it seemed appropriate to start one. 

 

The question here is, what exactly do we know about the process of Hemalurgic decay? Take particular note of any apparent contradictions as they likely mean a gap in knowledge where we can start to speculate. 

 

Below are the points that we know. This is only what is actually evidenced in the books or confirmed in a WoB, not dealing with theories on the subject (we'll get to those). 

 

For the sake of this discussion we should have some standardized terms. The terms to be used (so we all know what we are talking about) will be as follows:

 

Hemalurgist: The one performing the act of spiking

 

Donor: The one whose power or attribute is being taken

 

Host (Changed from Beneficiary): The one who is being spiked and thus gaining the trait

 

Hemalurgic Construct: A creature like a Koloss or Kandra who has gained or lost traits through Hemalurgy that are not directly connected with the powers or attributes granted by the spikes. Note that Inquisitors are not in this category as we have no direct evidence that they have any effects from Hemalurgy other than the direct powers of the spikes themselves.

 

 

Laws of Hemalurgic Decay

 

1. A spike left outside of a body loses charge at an indeterminate rate for an indeterminate amount of time to an indeterminate minimum.
2. Inquisitors took great pains (as well as inflicting great pains) as they made spikes to ensure they spent as little time outside a body as possible.
3. Spikes can be reused.
4. When as spike is reused it is also important to get it back into a body as quickly as possible (as seen by Human rushing to make a new Koloss as quickly as he could with the spike¹).
5. A spike kept in a body intermittently will still maintain some degree of a charge (Vin's and Wax's earrings), though what degree of charge is indeterminate.
6. Spikes may be divided, separate pieces maintaining some charge, but a lesser amount each. This process heightens Hemalurgic decay in some indeterminate way.

 

Please note any other laws/evidence I have missed and this list will be updated. Similarly note anything you think I have misphrased or misrepresented and with appropriate evidence the list will be altered. Remember this list is for provable, verifiable facts, not extrapolations and theories. 

 

Now the list was not really the intended subject of this thread, but it is a good starting point. The issues of the earrings have plagued us for far too long and it is time we put our collective obsessive minds to work on trying to figure out hemalurgic decay. Maybe it will come to nothing as we simply don't have enough information yet to make a definite conclusion on, or maybe we'll find that nugget buried somewhere that cracks this all wide open. 

 

Below I'll keep updated a synopsis of each possible theory based on our list of laws that seems to explain all of our gathered evidence. As long as a theory remains sound it keeps its place on the list. I'll use a series of codes to indicate usefulness of said theory. Since I'm starting and organizing this discussion the categories are at my discretion and opinion though if anyone disagrees with a categorization make  your case and I can probably be persuaded. 

 

Plain Text = Possible theory, takes all points into account and has not been fundamentally disproved but cannot really be proved either.

 

Strikethrough = Debunked theory, disproven via direct undeniable evidence.

 

Italics = Unlikely or tenuous theory. Technically possible but unlikely due to other known factors.

 

Bold = Highly likely theory. Takes all points into account and elegantly explains the inconsistencies.

 

Blue = Wild stab in the dark. Theory technically possible but not really based on presented evidence.

 

Pink = Mocking. 17th Sharders taking the piss as we are often wont to do.

 

 

The first theory presented is one of mine for this, but I'm ready to admit it doesn't really belong as anything but plain text by my codes.

 

 

 

Possible Extrapolations from the Laws of Hemalurgic Decay

 

• Spikes continually lose charge at a relatively quick rate whenever they are outside a body. The decay rate is constant but exponentially decreasing (basically a half-life, though not necessarily based on a factor of 2) to some bounded minimum charge. This minimum is some factor of the original charge placed in the spike, not an absolute. 
• Spikes lose charge quickly until they are first attuned to a Host, at which point they stop losing charge even while not actually in the Host anymore. (Attributed to Outis, full theory link here)

 

 

 

Please join in this discussion. It's long since time we got organized on this one. If this format works out, it might also be something to try for other head-scratchers that plague us all.

 

 

Footnotes

1. Supporting evidence debunked. Law #4 changed to Wild Stab in the Dark due to lack of supporting evidence.

Edited October 5, 2014 by killersquirrel59

[Oudeis]

First, so many kudos for an incredible methodology. I am pleased and terribly proud of it, and I hope your system does become an adopted standard.

 

Second, I do have a minor clarification.

 

"When as spike is reused it is also important to get it back into a body as quickly as possible (as seen by Human rushing to make a new Koloss as quickly as he could with the spike)."

 

From a later epigraph in the book, and from something Elend says a few chapters later, the spikes were not going to be re-used as-is, he was going to kill four wounded soldiers to recharge them, then use them on a fifth person to turn him into a koloss.

 

((This space reserved for in a few hours when I will not be rushing to get to work, and will have time to find the quotes)).

 

The reusing of spikes is something of especial interest to me these days. That I know of, we only have two instances where we even suspect that a spike was re-used between recipients, without being recharged first. The first is Wax's earring. The second is the pewter spike which granted gold feruchemy to some Inquisitors. Very little is known about both, and I think it's worth noting that in both cases, there was interaction at some point with someone who was currently holding the raw power of a Shard, so it's possible they are both idiosyncratic cases of what I call "Direct Shardic Intervention" (DSI).

 

In a few hours, when I catch a beat at work, I will return and find those quotes. If I'm still the most recent post, I'll modify this post to include my own personal theory about the model of hemalurgic theft, decay, and bonding.

 

Lastly, some people wonder about how decay works on feruchemical powers. There is a brief mention in one of the epigraphs in Hero of Ages, which I will also find when I've got a moment and post here. In brief, it implies that the decay limits the speed with which the hemalurgist can draw out health. The quote is far less specific and helpful than I could wish.

 

p.s. As part of your methodology, can we please all agree on some terms? Up to three parties are involved in hemalurgy. There is the man holding the spike. There is the person whom the trait is removed from. There is the person the trait is given to. The person the trait is removed from, it seems obvious to refer to this person as "victim". One of the other two should be called "hemalurgist", but which one? The person benefiting from hemalurgy, or the person who actually performs it? And what, then, do we call the other person?

[killersquirrel59]

I do agree that we should have standardized terms for this discussion. These terms are now included in the first post. Good idea. Given that some theories I've read include voluntary self-spiking, I want to avoid the use of the term "victim" or anything else that implies force or lack of consent. As such I've assigned the terms Hemalurgist, Beneficiary, and Donor as noted above.

 

Second, I do have a minor clarification.

 

"When as spike is reused it is also important to get it back into a body as quickly as possible (as seen by Human rushing to make a new Koloss as quickly as he could with the spike)."

 

From a later epigraph in the book, and from something Elend says a few chapters later, the spikes were not going to be re-used as-is, he was going to kill four wounded soldiers to recharge them, then use them on a fifth person to turn him into a koloss.

 

((This space reserved for in a few hours when I will not be rushing to get to work, and will have time to find the quotes)).

 

The reusing of spikes is something of especial interest to me these days. That I know of, we only have two instances where we even suspect that a spike was re-used between recipients, without being recharged first. The first is Wax's earring. The second is the pewter spike which granted gold feruchemy to some Inquisitors. Very little is known about both, and I think it's worth noting that in both cases, there was interaction at some point with someone who was currently holding the raw power of a Shard, so it's possible they are both idiosyncratic cases of what I call "Direct Shardic Intervention" (DSI).

 

I don't remember the exact quotes but I do remember what you are talking about now. You are correct. That supporting evidence does not apply. Law #4 is no longer applies as there is no direct evidence to confirm it. Changed to reflect that.

Edited September 30, 2014 by killersquirrel59

[Moogle]

A few large-scale considerations:
 
Hemalurgic decay seems related to the general property of Invested objects losing their Investiture. Spheres lose Stormlight, Nightblood leaks black Breath, spikes leak Investiture, that sort of thing. (Things with Breath also apparently lose the Breath over time, or so Brandon said he'd changed things to to prevent Breath-powered machinery being everywhere, but the only WoB on this is from the old TWG forums. I'd appreciate someone linking that again.)
 
Hemalurgic decay was serious enough for the Inquisitors to want to directly pound spikes into a person immediately, but Vin used her earring despite not wearing it for years and Sazed claims she was still "nearly twice as strong as a normal Mistborn" at bronze. This does not add up, but it does suggest the power-dropoff for spikes is very fast at the start, then they almost completely stop fading after. Normally, we'd expect an exponential dropoff, since basically everything ever in science with similar principles follows exponential dropoffs (heat transfer, capacitor charge-up times...) and it seems other things, like spheres, follow this.
 
Hemalurgy can be used by anyone in the Cosmere, without needing Scadrian metals (because you can Soulcast Allomantically-viable metals, I assume the same can be said for Hemalurgy). This is at odds with most other magic systems. As magic systems arise due to interactions between Shards and planets which they Invest, we'd expect Hemalurgy requires some sort of link to Scadrial if the magic users aren't from Scadrial - since Scadrial likes its metals, it seems likely that metal spikes will work on anyone in the Cosmere. I still have a soft spot for gemstone spikes, but I despair of figuring out spikes for Sel and Nalthis, so I lean towards an 80% chance of only metals working.
 
Nightblood can apparently be used as a Hemalurgic spike, and I sincerely doubt he's made of a proper Allomantic alloy. WoB:

Herowannabe
My friend and I asked him something like this at a book signing, but for some reason it never seemed to make it onto 17th Shard. We asked if a shardblade or Nightblood could be used as a hemalurgic spike (i.e.: two different investitures of magic). Brandon said that yes, in theory you could do that, but objects have a limit to how much investiture they can hold, and that it could be argued that things like Nightblood and Shardblades are already "full."

 

So that's interesting too.

[Kurkistan]

Some fun facts, for fun's sake:

 

@Outis:

 

We actually do have a fairly regular case of spikes being re-used both without being recharged and without any reason to believe that there's direct Shardic action going on (unless Ruin was really really micro-managing there with his minute amount of non-trapped power): Inquisitors and Feruchemical gold spikes.

 

@Moogle

 

Here you go.

 

@Topic

 

Also it's worth noting that apparently powers (or at least Allomancy) decay out-of-body a lot faster than human attributes do. Marsh mentions it at some point during his internal monologue when he's going about the spiking of Pendrod in HoA. Might be worth grabbing that quote when you get to it, Outis.

[Moogle]

@Topic

 

Also it's worth noting that apparently powers (or at least Allomancy) decay out-of-body a lot faster than human attributes do. Marsh mentions it at some point during his internal monologue when he's going about the spiking of Pendrod in HoA. Might be worth grabbing that quote when you get to it, Outis.

 

Just re-read that section, and Marsh doesn't remark on this. He killed an Allomancer for the spike he was using on Penrod, though he mentions they didn't want to give Penrod powers, just control him. This still doesn't mean the spike didn't give powers, though, else why kill an Allomancer?

[Kurkistan]

Hmm... I could have sworn... (as people may have noticed historically, though, I'm a bit worse with book-facts/quotes what with the lack of google for my hardcopies). Did you reread the whole sequence, from the chapter where Marsh first finds the Smoker until after he's spiked Penrod? If not, I may give it a skim myself a bit later... 

 

EDIT:

 

Just did some Google Books searching, there's a line on page 243 (whatever that means in real terms) that goes "Hemalurgy—particularly Allomantic imbues—was much more potent when one could drive the spike through the victim's [cuts off]."

 

If my memory isn't betraying me, the cut-off part was just about getting it in there fast, not bindpoints or the like.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Kurkistan

[Moogle]

EDIT:

 

Just did some Google Books searching, there's a line on page 243 (whatever that means in real terms) that goes "Hemalurgy—particularly Allomantic imbues—was much more potent when one could drive the spike through the victim's [cuts off]."

 

If my memory isn't betraying me, the cut-off part was just about getting it in there fast, not bindpoints or the like.

 

I just read the sequence where Marsh spikes Penrod. I had forgotten about the earlier chapter where spikes a Smoker.

 

Quote:

It seemed something of a waste to him. Hemalurgy—particularly Allomantic imbues—was much more potent when one could drive the spike through the victim’s heart and directly into a waiting host. That way, very little of the Allomantic ability was lost. Doing it this way—killing the Allomancer to make a spike, then traveling somewhere else to place it—would grant the new host far less power.

 

Perhaps for Vin, because she got the earring right away, that stopped the power loss? Like, you get the spike, and this 'bonds' it to you, and puts a plug of sorts on it? Doesn't really work, because Marsh could just shove the new spike into someone else to form a temporary plug, then give it to Penrod. Urgh, this is driving my crazy.

 

Also of note, spikes still work even if the wound has healed around them. They just have to touch the blood originally. This further supports that something special happens when you get the spike such that it changes the spike after. Though it does make me question how spikes can be re-used...

 

Maybe the spike touching blood is what harms your spirit, and then you forever have that wound so Ruin can control you? But the wound apparently closes after the spike is removed, going by Spook. Maybe it's left partially open, and re-placing the spike forces it fully open again? Hemalurgy is hard.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Moogle

[Oudeis]

Quotes:

 

Hemalurgic decay of Feruchemy:

 

Epigraph of chapter 36

 

"For example, all of the original Inquisitors were givena  pewter spike, which - after first being pounded through the body of a Feruchemist - gave the Inquisitor the ability to store up healing power. (Though they couldn't do so as quickly as a real Feruchemist, as per the law of hemalurgic decay.)"

 

Decay of allomancy, as opposed to other traits:

 

Last few paragraphs of Chapter 34

 

"Hemalurgy - particularly Allomantic imbues - was much more potent when one could drive the spike through the victim's heart and directly into a waiting host. That way, very little of the Allomantic ability was lost. Doing it this way - killing the Allomancer to make a spike, then traveling somewhere else to place it - would grant the new host far less power."

 

Thought: Does this mean Feruchemy does not drain as fast as Allomancy does? Perhaps because Allomancy is purely of Preservation while Feruchemy is a balance?

 

Sidenote: perhaps "host" instead of beneficiary?

 

Koloss re-use of spikes (I know you've already stipulated to this but I'd like to have all our ducks in a row in case someone wants the reference)

 

First, epigraph of chapter 40.

 

"Originally, we assumed that a koloss was a combination of two people into one. That was wrong. Koloss are not the melding of two people, but five, as evidenced by the four spikes needed to make them. Not five bodies, of course, but five souls. Each pair of spikes grants what the kandra would call the Blessing of Potency. However, each spike also distorts the koloss body a little more, making it increasingy inhuman. Such is the cost of Hemalurgy."

 

At first this seems non-specific, talking about koloss in general, rather than talking about what specifically was happening with Human. However, note at the start where it says, "we assumed". I believe this implies that Elend and Vin and all those people knew someone would have to die to power up the spikes before they could be used, which they couldn't have known if Human was only going to reuse the spikes, without recharging them.

 

From later that same chapter:

 

"The other day, Vin finally got one of them to show her how to make new koloss. From what he did, and from what he's said since, we believe that he was going to try to combine two men into one. That would make a creature with the strength of two men, but the mind of neither."

 

Further evidence, though I admit not incontrovertible, that the intention was to recharge the spikes.

 

Kay, I believe those are all the quotes I have promised/been asked for. Please let me know if I'm skipping any.

 

Onto my personal theory as to the model of hemalurgy, which touches on decay. It is based on very roundabout evidence.

 

Okay. I believe there are three stages to the life cycle of a hemalurgic spike. In its first stage, it is an unInvested spike of metal, like an empty metalmind. It's simply a potential spike.

 

Then, it gets charged, and enters into the second stage. It is in the second stage where decay occurs. The spike itself now contains a trait, but is not yet attuned to a host. (Yeah I'm jumping the gun and using Host instead of Beneficiary.) This imbalance in the spike is when decay occurs.

 

The third stage is when the spike has been paired to a host. I personally believe this part is important, though it's the weakest part of a largely unsupported theory. It does, however, explain some things that have confused people up until now.

 

Next, I will give an example. After this, I will explain some of my underlying thoughts and principles.

 

Vin's hemalurgic spike. At first, it was a bronze earring. Stage one. Then, Vin's mom used it to slaughter her other daughter. Messily. Man, imagine what you'd have to do to a baby to pierce its heart with an earring, and have the baby be alive until that moment... on second thought, don't imagine that. I did and now I feel nauseous.

 

Moving on. The spike is now Stage 2. It is charged, but already decaying. Within minutes, the mom has pierced Vin's ear. Stage three. The spike is now paired to Vin, and the decay stops. This explains why she could leave the spike outside of her body for years, while her bronze would still be almost twice as strong as normal. The spike is now stable, and does not lose any more power. Again, only a theory.

 

Now. Onto the principles. I'm trying to find parallels between my theoretical model and allomancy, and here's what I've got.

 

When in the Well, Vin had to get rid of her earring. We now know this was because it was a hemalurgic spike. And yet, the spike could still be used again afterwards. She didn't have access to its power for a period of time, and she didn't "register" as a hemalurgist to the power at the well, yet whatever bond she had with the spike was unbroken.

 

I'm likening this to a vial of metal sitting on the table next to a misting with no reserves. Let's say a Soother. The Soother has a spiritweb modified in such a way that allows him to use the vial as a catalyst to start an Investiture. However, at the moment, he has no direct access to this power; he'd have to drink the vial to get the reserve. Additionally, he cannot be detected as an allomancer by a Seeker, as he's giving off no bronzepulses.

 

This is how I see Vin, if she were sitting next to a table, and the earring were on the table. The act of becoming a hemalurgic host, the change from stage 2 to stage 3, modified her spiritweb just as it modified the spiritweb scrap trapped in the hemalurgic spike. Her spiritweb now has a bit in it, a round hole perfectly sized for a round peg, just as the Soother has the right spiritweb to use brass, even when he has no brass in his system. Additionally, even though her spiritweb has been changed in a way that allows her to access the power in the spike, unless the spike is inside of her, things like the Mist and the Well react to her as though she weren't a hemalurgist at all, just as a Seeker cannot tell that you have the spiritweb of a Soother, only whether or not you're currently burning brass.

 

So. Put it all together, and what have you got.

 

First, you have an empty spike, a potential donor, a potential hemalurgist, and a potential host. (these don't necessarily have to be three separate people)

 

Second, the act of charging. The hemalurgist places the spike inside of the donor. A part of the Donor's spiritweb is removed, modified, and placed in the spike. The donor has now undergone a series of changes. First, he's been stabbed, possibly in the heart, with a length of metal. This is typically fatal. Second, his very soul has had a chunk ripped out of it. We have no idea what that entails, as the spiritual realm is the least understood of the three. Within the spike, now, there is a fraction of a spiritweb. I believe it is modified in some manner, but I'm not certain how. I do suspect, however, that it's only half the change, and that at this point the charge is vulernable to decay.

 

Third, we now have a spike in Stage 2, a hemalurgist holding a spike, and a probably-dead donor. If he's not dead, he's both physically and spiritually wounded. In my opinion, extremely wounded. And we have a Host, who is as yet unmodified.

 

Fourth is the act of donation. The hemalurgist drives the spike into a bindpoint on the host. More changes occur. The spiritweb of the host is now modified. This might reflect a physical change in the person, such as a reformed brain or heart that allows the organ to function despite a length of metal in it. Additionally, I believe something is changed in the host's spiritweb that allows them to access the power of the spike. Lastly, the spiritweb inside the spike is now also changed. It is attuned to the host, and I believe this attunement seals off the charge inside, protecting it from hemalurgic decay even if the spike is later removed from the body.

 

Fifth is the final, stable scenario. The hemalurgist himself may remain wholly unchanged. The donor remains physically and spiritually wounded. The host now possesses a modified spiritweb with the ability to access the power of this specific spike, as long as it's touching the proper bindpoint, the same way a Soother has a spiritweb with the ability to access the power of a specific metal, as long as it's within the allomancer's stomach (or elsewhere, I know it's possible to burn a metal that is simply in your body, but let's stick with the basics we all know and understand.)

 

There are many, many things still unexplained by this. Re-use of spikes is a big one. Can a spike be reused before the host's death? How is the host affected if the spike is recharged before his death? At which point in the process, and by what method, are specific traits transferred (i.e. if a pewter spike takes the power from a feruchemist, when is specifically gold chosen as the power transfered)?

 

However, this is my proto-hypothesis, for now, until I read more and ask some questions at the next signing. Outlook seems to be that Shadows of Self will at least touch on hemalurgy.

 

Aaaaaand... I see in the time this post has taken me, someone already found the quote. And already mentioned some of what I've brought up here.

 

Moogle: Per Kurk's link above to gold feruchemy reused via pewter spikes, I think that passing it from host to host also involves decay. Perhaps less, but that's not really the point. In this case, Ruin just wanted a spike in Penrod. Granting him a power wouldn't have advanced Ruin's cause. Were there ways Ruin could have kept the power from decaying? Yes. Did Ruin want to do this? Not really, no. Just like he could have taken direct control of all the kandra and koloss on day of being freed, but chose not to.

[Fatebreaker]

Another interesting thing to notice is that Nightblood doesn't leak black smoke when He's in the sheath. This brings up the possibility of sheaths for Hemalurgic spikes that could contain the investiture after they were created. This would minimize loss when travelling with the spike over extended periods of times, so you could create a spike and then use it in another city without causing it to decrease in potency. 

[killersquirrel59]

Another interesting thing to notice is that Nightblood doesn't leak black smoke when He's in the sheath. This brings up the possibility of sheaths for Hemalurgic spikes that could contain the investiture after they were created. This would minimize loss when travelling with the spike over extended periods of times, so you could create a spike and then use it in another city without causing it to decrease in potency. 

That's an interesting idea, but doesn't seem to be much more than a stab in the dark. Nightblood is a completely different type of creation using a different Investiture system that is notably bad at storing attributes in in metal. Also, we don't know if Nightblood leaks at all when not being actively used even if out of the sheath. 

 

EDIT: Terms changed. If people are more comfortable with Host that's fine as long as we're all using the same terms. Also added new term Hemalurgic Construct.

 

EDIT2: @Outis: An interesting and clearly well thought out theory. 

 

(space reserved for more in depth analysis of Outis' theory when I'm not at work).

Edited October 5, 2014 by killersquirrel59

[Oudeis]

More utterly random ramblings that I'm just gonna toss out there.

 

Maybe bindpoints aren't specific to a power, maybe they're specific to everything the metal itself isn't specific to. So, what I mean is, a Steel spike takes a Physical Allomantic Power. Bronze spikes take a Mental Allomantic Power. We know that a bronze spike in Vin's earlobe granted her the Internal, Pushing mental power. Because the spike was bronze, it was going to be a mental power, anyway. Maybe that's the spot for Internal, Pushing? So, if a steel spike had been used to kill a Mistburn, and it were put in the same spot on the earlobe, it would grant Pewter, the Internal Pushing Physical Power? Would an aluminum spike grant the power Duralumin in that spot? Is it possible that this is how the body is mapped? By which I mean, there are certain lines on your body which are either Pushing or Pulling, and other lines which are Internal or External, mapped in such a way so that no opposing lines ever touch (that is, there's no spot on your body where a Push line touches a Pull line). You have to find a place where a Push/Pull line intersects an Internal/External line, and that's a bindpoint with those properties.

 

It still boils down (so far) to a bunch of random spots on your body, but this way there will be something more behind it. And, if it's true, it will mean that once we learn the exact spot for any specific Power, we'll know the spot of the power in the other four quadrants, as well.

 

Hrm... one problem which occurs to me. Atium steals any power. If you steal from a mistborn, then, and place it on the body, how would it know which power to grant? I shall ponder this...

[Fatebreaker]

That's an interesting idea, but doesn't seem to be much more than a stab in the dark. 

 

Ba-dum-tissssssh!

Hemalurgy puns never get old.

 

Hrm... one problem which occurs to me. Atium steals any power. If you steal from a mistborn, then, and place it on the body, how would it know which power to grant? I shall ponder this...

 

Probably intent, seeing how important it is in Hemalurgy.

[Oudeis]

This from a different thread; in an attempt to not de-rail that discussion, I'm replying here.

 

 
Not to mention that Vin's earring was very small, which Marsh again notes would increase the decay factor relative to a big spike.

 

I've read the passage, from Chapter 42 of Hero of Ages. I disagree with your assertion that this is the only thing it could mean. In context, he could have been saying a larger spike would have taken a far greater charge, like how a huge gemheart will last longer in the Weeping than a sphere, not because it loses Stormlight any slower, but because it simply started with more to lose.

 

As for the "precision" of the Hero of Ages saying "twice" versus "nearly twice", I find myself on the opposite side of the discussion I was just having with Voidus. If the process of making an inquisitor loses a bit of power, and thus Marsh's Bronze rating is at 198% power, whereas Vin's less efficient method maybe lost even more, so she's got 195% power, I think you're splitting hairs that in what essentially was a note from one man to his friend, claiming it's inconsistent that he'd generalize 195% to "twice". If I ran a race in thirty minutes and my buddy ran it in sixteen and a half, I'd prolly tell our friends he ran it twice as fast as I did, not that his time was fifty-five percent of mine. My point is, Sazed was being correct and truthful, but made no promises to be held to standards of exactness or accuracy. "Twice" was close enough for his purposes.

 

I'm not questioning your W's-o-B supporting your argument that any spike outside of a body for any length of time will degrade. However I am pointing out two inconsistencies and asking how you reconcile them with the model you propose. Vin's earring was out of her ear for literally years, when we're concerned about seconds in making an Inquisitor, and Marsh admits that the spike he's had for a few weeks before implanting it in Penrod is practically useless. Also, TenSoon leaves OreSuer's Blessing of Potency hidden away, outside of a body, for months. Until used in conjuction within a kandra, Blessings, that we know of, are no different than any other spike. They're just two bars of iron charged with physical might via the death of a human. Why, then, after months, do they still grant him their power? He mentions that every muscle swells to more than double power. If a few weeks is all it takes for a spike granting copper to wither to nothingness, how can iron spikes still be viable after months?

 

Personally, I find my evidence compelling. From past experience trying to change your mind, I think I can reasonably guess that you will not. We have two recent W's-o-B, telling us expressly from Mr. Sanderson himself that he sometimes gets stuff wrong and we shouldn't trust him on obscure stuff, whereas the books are vetted and edited and checked against the Wiki. I humbly suggest that the W's-o-B you reference are, like Harmony's comment about how powerful Vin is, correct but inexact; the argument you express is, "He doesn't add a qualifier, therefore we have to assume it is true in every circumstance, unqualified," whereas I think "under most circumstances" was just as implied by his statement as the "nearly" was implied in the Hero of Ages's epigraph. I know none of this will convince you, but I'm explaining my side of the argument in case people are following.

 

You talk about people being used to "cap off" powers, and how the fact that we never see it is proof that it's impossible. Can you point out to me a missed opportunity? The three times that are even close to "on screen" that we see power transferred when the point is to transfer power, two of them are to grant power to an Inquisitor (once when Marsh flashes back to his own rebirth, and another time, I believe near the start of the third book, where the Inquisitors are stealing feruchemical traits) and the third is Vin's mom killing her sister to grant Vin the earring. In all three cases, the spike was transferred in a manner that could not have been made more efficient by transferring the power to someone else in the meantime. The only other spike we actually see is the Penrod one. From Marsh's perspective, he mentions several things that could have been done differently if the point were to grant Penrod more power, and flat-out says that granting Penrod the power isn't the point.

 

So again. Please support your argument by providing us with an example of a time that the "capping" could have been used, and would have been something desirable, but deliberately was not. Otherwise, your argument that "it can't happen because we never see it happen" doesn't hold water, because there's no reason for it to have happened. That's like saying the local physics of Scadrial make sailing impossible, because we've never seen someone sail. Well, yes, but we've also never seen a situation where someone would have sailed, if possible. It's not conspicuous in its absence, because its presence would have been out-of-place.

 

As ever, I'm not trying to say that you're not allowed to simply believe what you want to, without reason. However, unless you provide a reason, you have to agree that simply deciding what to believe is what you're doing.

[18th Shard]

Perhaps placing it in a host decreases the rate of decay dramatically (instead of 10% decay/minute, .01% decay/minute)

[Moogle]

I've read the passage, from Chapter 42 of Hero of Ages. I disagree with your assertion that this is the only thing it could mean. In context, he could have been saying a larger spike would have taken a far greater charge, like how a huge gemheart will last longer in the Weeping than a sphere, not because it loses Stormlight any slower, but because it simply started with more to lose.

 

Possible, but I believe the text contradicts it:

The spikes size was, in this case, immaterial. Just as a pinch of metal dust could fuel Allomancy for a time, or a small ring could hold a small Feruchemical charge, a rather small bit of metal could work for Hemalurgy. Inquisitor spikes were made large to be intimidating, but a small pin could, in many instances, be just as effective as a massive spike. It depended on how long one wanted to leave the spike outside of a person's body after using it to kill someone.

 

1) Inquisitor spikes were made large to be intimidating, not because it's necessary to hold an entire allomantic charge.

2) Marsh specifically mentions that the size difference only mattered depending on how log you want to leave the spike outside of a body, hence my statement.

 

I agree in general that smaller spikes will eventually be too small to hold an entire stolen soul-fragment. I do not think this is the case for Vin's earring.

 

As for the "precision" of the Hero of Ages saying "twice" versus "nearly twice", I find myself on the opposite side of the discussion I was just having with Voidus.

 

That's a pity, because we're not disagreeing here then. Sazed was being vague rather than clear - when he says 2x, he means slightly less than 2x but he's too lazy to bother trying to be clear for the sake of the readers. I was merely noting he was being inconsistent in his descriptions to argue against your point when you said this:

I admit it's not a slam dunk. I could see someone remaining a bit skeptical. I'm not sure I think anything less believing than skeptical is a reasonable interpretation of the text, however.

 

My position is that Sazed was being vague in your statement: Vin was slightly less than 2x stronger when she originally got the earring. Keep in mind the time at which this takes place:

The death of that sister - and subsequent inheritance of power via the Hemalurgic spike used to kill that sister - left her twice as good at burning bronze as a typical Mistborn.

 

(Vin Snapped during birth and thus was a Mistborn at the time of the spiking.)

 

Vin was in fact originally less than 2x as strong, but there'd be some decay in the following years.

 

I apologize, because I completely failed to make that point as I was browsing the forums during a bout of sickness-induced-insomnia.

 

I'm not questioning your W's-o-B supporting your argument that any spike outside of a body for any length of time will degrade. However I am pointing out two inconsistencies and asking how you reconcile them with the model you propose. Vin's earring was out of her ear for literally years, when we're concerned about seconds in making an Inquisitor, and Marsh admits that the spike he's had for a few weeks before implanting it in Penrod is practically useless. Also, TenSoon leaves OreSuer's Blessing of Potency hidden away, outside of a body, for months. Until used in conjuction within a kandra, Blessings, that we know of, are no different than any other spike. They're just two bars of iron charged with physical might via the death of a human. Why, then, after months, do they still grant him their power? He mentions that every muscle swells to more than double power. If a few weeks is all it takes for a spike granting copper to wither to nothingness, how can iron spikes still be viable after months?

 

Penrod's spike never withered to nothingness, as far as I know. The two mentions I was able to find are these:

That was, in a way, the day of his birth. What a wonderful day. Penrod, however, would not have such joy. He wasn’t to be made into an Inquisitor—he would get only a single, small spike. One that had been made days ago, and been allowed to sit outside a body—leaking power—all that time.

 

And so, Marsh had come to harvest the man’s power and draw it into the spike. It seemed something of a waste to him. Hemalurgy—particularly Allomantic imbues—was much more potent when one could drive the spike through the victim’s heart and directly into a waiting host. That way, very little of the Allomantic ability was lost. Doing it this way—killing the Allomancer to make a spike, then traveling somewhere else to place it—would grant the new host far less power.

 

As to TenSoon:

The Blessing of Potency. He’d stolen the two spikes from OreSeur’s body. Without this Blessing, TenSoon would never have been able to follow Vin as he had during their year together. It more than doubled the power and endurance of each muscle. He couldn’t regulate or change the level of that added strength—this was not Feruchemy or Allomancy, but something different. Hemalurgy. A person had died to create each spike.

 

TenSoon gains more than 2x the muscle power from two spikes, which suggests each spike is >50% charged from one human^[1]. I see no inconsistencies here. If the spikes are at 60% power, then there is very significant power loss, but this is not the same as them "wither[ing] to nothingness". Same thing with Penrod.

 

You talk about people being used to "cap off" powers, and how the fact that we never see it is proof that it's impossible. Can you point out to me a missed opportunity?

 

I can do better. I can provide a WoB:

sporkify (18 October 2008)

Before, Inquisitors had supernatural healing. How did they get the Feruchemists for the spike? Were the keepers not so hidden after all?

Brandon Sanderson (20 October 2008)

The keepers have been hunted for years. Much like skaa Allomancers, they were often captured and taken by the Inquisitors.  It didn't happen nearly as often, of course. Two things to remember, however: Not all Inquisitors had the same spikes, and spikes CAN be reused with much less effectiveness. The longer they are outside of a body, the more their power degrades.

(source)

 

You're welcome to say Mr. Sanderson is wrong on this one. I know of your arguments, and in truth I wouldn't argue hard against you if you said he was wrong here, but on balance I consider this to invalidate the idea of 'capping' a spike by putting it in a temporary receipient. I'm not saying you're wrong with fervor, mind you, just that I am unswayed by your evidence due to this conflicting WoB and consider your model reasonably unlikely for the moment.

 

I think you're right that I'm not going to be convinced by your arguments here, but not to worry: I'm not even convinced by my own arguments either. I do note the huge number of WoBs and in-text references that a Hemalurgic spike will always lose power when out of a body (beyond the possibility of sticking a spike in a container designed to reduce leakage, which I believe is possible by WoB). Even though they're all probably a little wrong/vague because Sazed couldn't be bothered to write a few words here and there, I think taken as a whole they are at least a little more likely than your alternatives.

 

I agree that there is a huge problem with how much time various spikes stay outside of bodies and how severe the effects of Hemalurgic decay are supposed to be (Marsh says there would be "significant" power loss in a week), but nothing says the solution can't be "Hemalurgic decay is actually pretty mild". If a spike loses power exponentially (like actual radiation), and only loses 10% of its current charge per year, well that wouldn't be too inconsistent with what we've seen.

 

---

[1] Not to get into this in any serious capacity because every time I've done this for Allomatic genetics it turns out poorly, but we don't know if a spike at half power will grant +50% of the strength that a spike at 100% power (even if this is impossible) would. Imagine every time an Allomancer had kids with a muggle, their kids had half their Allomancer genes. And yet, we look ten generations later (with a loss of half of the Allomantic genes with each generation) and their descendents who are Allomancers are not 1/1024 times weaker. What can you conclude? Well, there is no evidence this is not how it works, and there is no evidence it is how it works, but knowing how this works is utterly 100% required to understand Hemalurgic decay. If a spike at 50% still grants 90% of an Allomancer's power, we need to know that. The single most important thing that makes it hard for me to accept any model of Hemalurgy is that we don't know how power changes with the charge on a spike. Any information on this front will dramatically shift my views.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Moogle

[Kaymyth]

Perhaps Hemalurgic decay follows along the model of radioactive decay, in half-lives.  So, after X amount of time, the spike loses half of its charge, another X time passes and it's half again.  The charge would drop off pretty rapidly at first, and then level out, never quite decaying completely.

[Oudeis]

Marsh specifically mentions that the size difference only mattered depending on how log you want to leave the spike outside of a body, hence my statement.

Per the example I cited, that's one possible interpretation. I'll restate it. Two gemstones might lose Stormlight at the same rate. If one is bigger, and they're both filled to capacity with stormlight, the larger one will retain more stormlight for a longer period of time, even at the same rate of decay. I state my case again. You have no grounds, based on that quote, to assume that he means size affects rate of decay, rather than how great a charge it could initially start with.

 

Vin was in fact originally less than 2x as strong, but there'd be some decay in the following years.

Quick note that you leave off the very next sentence, which sorta disproves your theory. "...left her twice as good at burning bronze as a typical Mistborn. And that let her see through the copperclouds of lesser Allomancers." It doesn't say "she was twice as strong. For a moment. At birth. Then years later almost the entirety of the charge wasted away and she barely had any boost at all. And that's why she could pierce copperclouds."

I disagree with your argument, based on points I've already brought up. Hemalurgic decay is fast enough that seconds matter. Marsh comments that the spike placed into penrod is, from a power perspective, all but worthless. Vin's earring, after years of decay, shouldn't be providing anything but the smallest possible measure of boost to her bronze. And yet... she pierces copperclouds As you've said, not all allomancers are at to-the-iota same level of power. After a thousand years, strong bloodlines and weak bloodlines, you'd expect a prevalent degree of disparity between the "power levels" of Mistings. However strong Vin is naturally, if she was simply an iota away from being able to pierce copperclouds, it would be a common occurrence for slightly strong Seekers to routinely pierce slightly weak Copperclouds, and everyone would know it was a matter of power, not assume it's binary the way they do. Vin has to have a sizable boost to power, and given a tiny earring and years of decay, that's simply not plausible. Something had to have happened to prevent the years of neglect from becoming years of decay.

Penrod's spike never withered to nothingness, as far as I know.

You seem to be right... I just read that chapter this morning, and I swear there had been something about how he wasn't getting any power, but power wasn't the point, they just wanted Ruin to begin to influence him. But now I cannot find the passage. I concede that we don't know it was worthless, but Marsh still makes a big deal about how it's been decaying for days. I find it difficult to believe days matter, but years don't.

 

TenSoon gains more than 2x the muscle power from two spikes, which suggests each spike is >50% charged from one human^[1].

Your footnote talks about how we don't know enough about the numbers, yet here you assume that hemalurgic spikes steal 100% of a human's might. Maybe one fully charged spike only gives you 60%. But that's not important.

What is important is, while we don't know the actual, specific amounts of power lost, we do know that seconds matter. If a few seconds lose enough power to matter in the slightest, I cannot accept that the same spikes can sit in a hole decaying for months, and still grant (at most) more than half their power each. If the decay rate is so phenomenally slow, why do they go to efforts, building tables with indents, if they're only saving the tiniest fraction of power? It doesn't scan.

 

 

You're welcome to say Mr. Sanderson is wrong on this one.

I'm not saying Mr. Sanderson is wrong. As I so often do, however, I point out that you're ignoring that the quote could mean what you say, but there are other, obvious, just as valid explanations. As I've said, as the books mention time after time, seconds matter. Let's say an Inquisitor with one of the health spikes does die. If it takes them five minutes to recover the spike, find either the Inquisitor next in line for health, or some random victim who can be imbued with feruchemical gold to cap off the power until it gets passed along, that is significant loss. There's absolutely nothing in the WoB which says, "And the Inquisitors didn't bother sticking it in someone while they transfered the power because that would have made it more efficient."

If a spike loses power exponentially (like actual radiation), and only loses 10% of its current charge per year, well that wouldn't be too inconsistent with what we've seen.

It would be inconsistent with the fact that we see in the text that seconds matter. If the loss is only 10% a year, it would be simpler and easier for the Inquisitors to kill someone on one table and stab the host on the next table; the barely-perceptible fraction of power lost would not be worth the effort of constructing special furniture, not to mention the risk; if either the donor spasms during death or the host twitches at all, the spikes have to be placed on something as thin as a nerve; if the power loss weren't significant, wouldn't the intelligent choice be to steal it, and then drive it into the host when the host doesn't have a twitching fresh corpse voiding its bowels all over the host?

You sorta dance around this topic, so please answer the question. Do you agree that seconds matter? Do you think the text states that it's best to drive a spike through one person and into another expressly because the seconds it would take to do it any other way would result in a noteworthy loss of power? Because I cannot see how you can claim that spikes left out for years could retain any sort of noticeable charge at all, yet also acknowledge, as it's written in the books, that wasting seconds wastes measurable amounts of power.

[Kaymyth]

 

 

I agree that there is a huge problem with how much time various spikes stay outside of bodies and how severe the effects of Hemalurgic decay are supposed to be (Marsh says there would be "significant" power loss in a week), but nothing says the solution can't be "Hemalurgic decay is actually pretty mild". If a spike loses power exponentially (like actual radiation), and only loses 10% of its current charge per year, well that wouldn't be too inconsistent with what we've seen.

 

 

And I see now that the radiation decay idea was already brought up before I oh-so brilliantly added my 2 cents.  That'll teach me to try to participate in theory threads whilst suffering from a raging head cold. 

Head...full...brain...drowning...

[Moogle]

Sorry for the long delay! I was sick, and it was plain to me that I was not thinking clearly enough to have a discussion on something as fiddly as this.

 

Per the example I cited, that's one possible interpretation. I'll restate it. Two gemstones might lose Stormlight at the same rate. If one is bigger, and they're both filled to capacity with stormlight, the larger one will retain more stormlight for a longer period of time, even at the same rate of decay. I state my case again. You have no grounds, based on that quote, to assume that he means size affects rate of decay, rather than how great a charge it could initially start with.

 

To put the quote here for easy reference:

The spikes size was, in this case, immaterial. Just as a pinch of metal dust could fuel Allomancy for a time, or a small ring could hold a small Feruchemical charge, a rather small bit of metal could work for Hemalurgy. Inquisitor spikes were made large to be intimidating, but a small pin could, in many instances, be just as effective as a massive spike. It depended on how long one wanted to leave the spike outside of a person's body after using it to kill someone.

 

He specifically says "a small pin could, in many instances, be just as effective as a massive spike". If we take the interpretation that a smaller spike will start off with less of a charge because it can only hold so much, then this statement makes no sense. A small pin would be much less effective than a bigger spike in basically all cases.

 

I also note that based on WoBs, spikes are only barely Invested:

Herowannabe
I’m curious, I’ve got a list of various cosmere bits of metal, and I wonder if you would rank them from like 1 to 10 or easy to difficult on how hard it would be to steelpush on them?

Brandon Sanderson
Okay.

Herowannabe
So, like metal inside a person’s body?

Brandon Sanderson
It depends on how strong the investiture in them is.

Herowannabe
Is that going to be the answer for all of these?

Brandon Sanderson
Probably.

Herowannabe
How about a spike charged with Hemalurgy? Not in a person.

Brandon Sanderson
Not in a person? It depends on how strong—yeah. A spike is moderately—in the realm of these sorts of things—moderately easy to push on, because a spike does not rip off very much investiture. Only enough to short circuit the soul, and it loses that over time. So I would put that at the bottom—with the top being very hard—to be one of the easier things.

Herowannabe
How about a metalmind? A feruchemy metalmind that is "full."

Brandon Sanderson
That is going to be middle of the realm. Generally easier than, for instance, a shardblade, which is going to be very hard.
(source)

 

(I removed some of the quote for brevity.)

 

Based on this, I doubt a small spike is "full" to the point where it could hold no more charge. I will however concede that this is not proof, just something I believe that is a strong argument. You are welcome to believe as you wish on this.

 

---

 

Quick note that you leave off the very next sentence, which sorta disproves your theory. "...left her twice as good at burning bronze as a typical Mistborn. And that let her see through the copperclouds of lesser Allomancers." It doesn't say "she was twice as strong. For a moment. At birth. Then years later almost the entirety of the charge wasted away and she barely had any boost at all. And that's why she could pierce copperclouds."

 

I'll concede the point here. I don't know what I was thinking. I will, I suppose, revert back to my "and Sazed was wrong" position. It's kind of frustrating to me, because I should be able to trust most of what he says as being basically true.

 

---

 

I disagree with your argument, based on points I've already brought up. Hemalurgic decay is fast enough that seconds matter. Marsh comments that the spike placed into penrod is, from a power perspective, all but worthless. Vin's earring, after years of decay, shouldn't be providing anything but the smallest possible measure of boost to her bronze. And yet... she pierces copperclouds As you've said, not all allomancers are at to-the-iota same level of power. After a thousand years, strong bloodlines and weak bloodlines, you'd expect a prevalent degree of disparity between the "power levels" of Mistings. However strong Vin is naturally, if she was simply an iota away from being able to pierce copperclouds, it would be a common occurrence for slightly strong Seekers to routinely pierce slightly weak Copperclouds, and everyone would know it was a matter of power, not assume it's binary the way they do. Vin has to have a sizable boost to power, and given a tiny earring and years of decay, that's simply not plausible. Something had to have happened to prevent the years of neglect from becoming years of decay.

 

Later you acknowledge that Marsh did not say the spike was worthless, so I'm going to assume you're willing to concede that Vin's spike could still have more than an iota of charge left on it.

 

As to the idea of some Mistings have disparate power levels, I agree that it seems likely some Mistings would be stronger than others. Because we know piercing copper clouds was still not a known occurrence, this would imply Vin's spike has a sizeable charge left on it. (No other Allomancers could hear the Well, either, apparently(?) which again suggests she was much stronger.)

 

Ultimately, I do not agree that "something had to have happened to prevent the years of neglect from becoming years of decay". I am not convinced the rate of decay is super severe - or if it is, it's not exponential, and is instead something that happens very fast for the first while after the spike is out of the body, then slows down massively. Vin had her earring in a good portion of her childhood, even if Leras eventually got her to stop wearing it, so I'm not even sure if we're looking at years of decay time. May only be looking at a few months or a year. You'd still think this would be significant, but as I mentioned it may just be that most of the power is lost in the first day or so after the spike is out, and then it slows down massively.

 

---

 

Your footnote talks about how we don't know enough about the numbers, yet here you assume that hemalurgic spikes steal 100% of a human's might. Maybe one fully charged spike only gives you 60%. But that's not important.

What is important is, while we don't know the actual, specific amounts of power lost, we do know that seconds matter. If a few seconds lose enough power to matter in the slightest, I cannot accept that the same spikes can sit in a hole decaying for months, and still grant (at most) more than half their power each. If the decay rate is so phenomenally slow, why do they go to efforts, building tables with indents, if they're only saving the tiniest fraction of power? It doesn't scan.

 

I agree that it's not very elegant, but at this point my explanation for this would be that the decay rate is something like (numbers don't matter exactly):

• Initial high power loss mode: Spike loses 40% of it's power in the first few minutes after it is taken while the soul still takes time to 'settle in' to the spike.
• Low power loss mode: The spike loses 1% of its current power every year after those first few minutes.

I think this fits the novels very well, and fits with Brandon's statements that spikes continue to decay when out of the body and when transferred from old inquisitors to new inquisitors. I think this is not very elegant, and it would not be my first choice of model, but it doesn't violently offend me, so there's that. I'll acknowledge that your idea of spikes being 'capped' or whatever when they get a host, so they don't decay when out of the host, is also a possible model, even if I don't think it meshes well with our WoBs. It's like mine is any better when some of my arguments are "Sazed was probably wrong".

 

Actually, now I think on it, if most of the power losses happen early on because the spike has just ripped the soul apart and hasn't entirely infused itself with the soul chunk, and then you avoid this by immediately spiking a victim, it might be that after Vin took out her earring she was in the "low power loss mode" of my model and was actually very near 100% power on her spike. Maybe I don't have to argue Sazed was wrong!

 

---

 

You sorta dance around this topic, so please answer the question. Do you agree that seconds matter? Do you think the text states that it's best to drive a spike through one person and into another expressly because the seconds it would take to do it any other way would result in a noteworthy loss of power? Because I cannot see how you can claim that spikes left out for years could retain any sort of noticeable charge at all, yet also acknowledge, as it's written in the books, that wasting seconds wastes measurable amounts of power.

 

I seem like I dance around on it because I am not sure of what model I should be using for the decay of Hemalurgic spikes. I introduced a new one above where the seconds do matter. Before I had this, I would have argued "no the seconds barely matter if using an exponential power decay model". I'm also not wholly convinced Marsh was right when he said wasting seconds wastes a lot of power - Marsh is not exactly what we'd call a master Hemalurgist. Ruin handled the hard bits. He's still the best authority we have, though, I guess.

[Oudeis]

Okay, well, you're someone reading a book and Sazed is currently the God with a mind widened beyond human comprehension around whose power the very art we are discussing was crafted. As soon as you're willing to agree that if you directly contradict him, he's axiomatically right, I will return to this discussion with you. If you're willing to take flat-out statements from the book and say that they have to be wrong simply because you've decided otherwise and you're more right than the book is, then there's obviously no point in my continuing to talk to you. You're going to choose to ignore anything I say that you don't like, regardless of how factual or supported it is, and if anyone out there is still willing to listen to you after your "I'm right and Sazed is wrong" argument they're clearly not going to listen to reason, either.

[Moogle]

...

You may have missed the point in my post where I said:

Actually, now I think on it, if most of the power losses happen early on because the spike has just ripped the soul apart and hasn't entirely infused itself with the soul chunk, and then you avoid this by immediately spiking a victim, it might be that after Vin took out her earring she was in the "low power loss mode" of my model and was actually very near 100% power on her spike. Maybe I don't have to argue Sazed was wrong!

As well: just because Sazed is essentially a god does not mean he's perfectly intelligent. He cannot see the past in detail, and obviously having an expanded mind was not sufficient to grant him the ability to correct the planet's orbit, etc. without his metalminds. I do not think saying he's got this super expanded mind so he's obviously perfectly right in these books he wrote just after he ascended is a very strong argument. After all, we got a good look at Vin after she ascended: she was very good at counting, not so good at the whole understanding vast realms of Realmatic theory in a single second.

Arguing he's wrong is certainly a bad sign for any argument, but not a death knell. If you no longer wish to discuss this, it's your prerogative. I feel you're characterizing me unfairly, however. It's not "I'm right and Sazed is clearly wrong!" it's "I've looked at a bunch of evidence and have a coherent model of Hemalurgy derived from things Sazed has said and Brandon has said in various WoBs and which Marsh has said and they don't add up with what Sazed said about Vin being at full power. It seems to me like she should have lost enough power so that she'd be significantly less than 2x as strong, despite what Sazed said. Maybe he was off?"

Edited February 15, 2015 by Moogle