The Song of Ice and Fire

[Bunyod]

Recently I enjoyed listening to Brandon Sanderson's interview. And Brandon said that he couldn't finish reading The Game of Thrones for whatever reasons. Well, I was waiting to read this series by Martin for a long time. But, Brandon's comments made me to take a look at it.

I read first 10 chapters. Then some comment in the book made me to take a look at wiki pages of The Song of Ice and Fire. I started reading wiki and found out that The King will be murdered, Eddard Stark dies stupidly, then his sones and many good people. And the reson for all these deaths is Eddard's stupidity.

- Eddard Stark goes to capital. leaving behind an enemy Theon in his family! Who later kills his sons!

- Eddard Stark hates the family of the King's wife,

- He knows this family is treacherous and doesn't know the meaning of honor,

- Stark is considered a great general, as he fought many battles alongside King. He should be smart, no?

- Yet Eddard Stark tells King's wife that he knows that her children are illegitimate.

- King's wife kills her husband, and all hell breaks lose.

After wiki pages, I couldn't continue reading that stuff. I just don't like stupid actions by main charcters.

Maybe I'm wrong to judge so fast. But I like my main characters to be reasonable.

Edit: Edited your topic title to mention that there are spoilers within. Some people have issue with those, for some reason. -Shiv

Edited March 26, 2012 by Shivertongue
Title edit

[lyssie95]

I think all books can probably look like that if you break it down enough. I started reading Game of Thrones this year, but like Brandon, I felt there was a little too much... distasteful subject matter. That said, many of my friends have read and enjoyed the books, so even though when put in a big list it all seems silly, in context it is prolly pretty good. GRRM is known for having really compelling characters, so... Yeah.

Hmmm... Break down of mistborn: eat metal and gain magic powers

[Bunyod]

First of thanks Shiv for editing.

Secondly,

Hmmm... Break down of mistborn: eat metal and gain magic powers

I must confess. I've read WOK and enjoyed it very much. Then, I've read Mistborn 1. Enjoyed it. But, came to conclusion that the World itself centered around 1 city and it affected me negatively. So, after reading wiki pages of Mistborn 2 and 3, I decided against reading them. I came to conclusion that the main characters acted unreasonably yet again

After this I came here.

And fun things started happening to me as I've learned that Mistborn, Elantris, Warbreaker and WOK are happening in one universe. And each one was a small sample of a huge goody, which made me to change my mind on Mistborn trilogy. Now, I decided to read each and every book of Cosmere Universe.

The only negative part about it though... TIME... I wonder when this whole thing will be finished. Dragonsteel - 7 books, Mistborn - 6 more books, WOK - 9 more books... That's several decades at the least...

Edited March 26, 2012 by Bunyod

[Windrunner]

I understand what you mean about Mistborn being centered in one city, although I rather enjoyed the change of pace. I love big epic books, but in my opinion it was nice to read such a concise story that didn't leave my trying to remember all these separate places. I think if you go the opposite direction and have to show too much of the world, you sometimes end up on sort of a grand tour, rather then in the important places. Another reason Brandon wrote the books as he did was because he wanted the Mistborn books to be plot based, instead of setting.

Have you got around to Mistborn 2 and 3 yet? If not I think you'll enjoy 3 more, you have travel scenes as well as two major new locations, Urteau and Fadrex City, both of which have some unique characteristics. If you'd like expanded world information I'd suggest you check out the RPG. You can get the digital edition for only 15 dollars, and you get all sorts of cool world information, (Brandon had all the world information you seem to be missing, even if it didn't make the books) as well as a short story by Brandon entitled the Eleventh Metal, about Kelsier finding malatium. I must confess that I haven't purchased it myself yet, I plan on remedying that oversight soon.

[Bunyod]

I understand what you mean about Mistborn being centered in one city, although I rather enjoyed the change of pace. I love big epic books, but in my opinion it was nice to read such a concise story that didn't leave my trying to remember all these separate places. I think if you go the opposite direction and have to show too much of the world, you sometimes end up on sort of a grand tour, rather then in the important places. Another reason Brandon wrote the books as he did was because he wanted the Mistborn books to be plot based, instead of setting.

Have you got around to Mistborn 2 and 3 yet? If not I think you'll enjoy 3 more, you have travel scenes as well as two major new locations, Urteau and Fadrex City, both of which have some unique characteristics. If you'd like expanded world information I'd suggest you check out the RPG. You can get the digital edition for only 15 dollars, and you get all sorts of cool world information, (Brandon had all the world information you seem to be missing, even if it didn't make the books) as well as a short story by Brandon entitled the Eleventh Metal, about Kelsier finding malatium. I must confess that I haven't purchased it myself yet, I plan on remedying that oversight soon.

Not started Mistborn 2 yet. But planning to read it.

P.S. Wind, can you check the thread "In Topic: Cosmere 101 & Basic Q&A" I have some questions there.

[Windrunner]

Ah I hope you'll love it, my favorite part was how it was actually starting where most fantasy books quit, after the "Dark Lord" is defeated. I was going to answer your questions but I think Chaos beat me to the punch.

[Alliare]

There are many people who love A Song of Ice and Fire, whilst others find it terribly tedious. I read up to book four, then didn't buy the fifth one because I felt li9ke if the author were pulling my leg. However, it has a lot of fans and they consider it a masterpiece, so I guess it's ultimately a matter of tastes. The problem is, too much sex scenes, too much political scenes and too many characters, some of them you really don't care about. I feel like if Martin didn't like his characters himself, and that's the reason you misht find they act in illogical ways. Thyey're not so illogical - not in that world, but oh well. I don't really think Stark would have had much choice, for example.

Now, I) strongly recommend you to read Mistborn 2 and 3, even though I think you will enjoy them less than you could have, given that you have already read wiki information about them and so won't be so surprised but plot twists. But oh well - nothing you can do. Don't do it again in the future!

[master]

Eddard Stark goes to capital. leaving behind an enemy Theon in his family! Who later kills his sons!

- Eddard Stark hates the family of the King's wife,

- He knows this family is treacherous and doesn't know the meaning of honor,

- Stark is considered a great general, as he fought many battles alongside King. He should be smart, no?

- Yet Eddard Stark tells King's wife that he knows that her children are illegitimate.

- King's wife kills her husband, and all hell breaks lose.

There are a few things wrong in this. I understand it if you don't like the books but disliking them becuase of wrong info is a bit...

theon is a hostage. eddards job was supposed to keep him away from his family. It was robb who sent theon away to theons father. not eddard.

I agree that he is an idiot when it comes to politics. but that doesnt mean he has to be an idiot when it comes to battle strategy does it?

I read first 10 chapters. Then some comment in the book made me to take a look at wiki pages of The Song of Ice and Fire. I started reading wiki and found out that The King will be murdered, Eddard Stark dies stupidly, then his sones and many good people. And the reson for all these deaths is Eddard's stupidity.

this isnt true either. while eddards stupidity caused robb to rebel, there would still have been a war. if eddard used joffrey as a puppet stannis would have attacked. if eddard joined stannis he would have to fight the lannisters. the reason for all of the deaths was the fact that the kinngs children were illigitimite. it was not eddards fault that he was unable to stop the war. but his death wasn't the cause, just the catilist.

[Bunyod]

I don't really think Stark would have had much choice, for example.

Now, I) strongly recommend you to read Mistborn 2 and 3, even though I think you will enjoy them less than you could have, given that you have already read wiki information about them and so won't be so surprised but plot twists. But oh well - nothing you can do. Don't do it again in the future!

1) Stark should have been smart enough at least not to send his people to ranging when so many of them were mysteriously disappearing. He should have been smart enough to stay at the Wall defending it when strange things were happening there. He chopped the head of a 40 year veteran whose eyes were filled with fear! A 40 year Veteran can be feared of what?!! if not for Others? Stark should have been honorable enough not to confess for the things he didn't do ! He should have been smart enough to at least consider: They fooled me once (King's wife) They fooled me twice (City garrison) So now they'll fool me thrice and kill me even if I confess!!!

I do truly hate STUPID main characters

2) As for Mistborn 2 and 3... Now, after your words, I'm considering to read Warbreaker first and then read those 2. This way I may be able to forget a bit Wiki content

this isnt true either. while eddards stupidity caused robb to rebel, there would still have been a war. if eddard used joffrey as a puppet stannis would have attacked. if eddard joined stannis he would have to fight the lannisters. the reason for all of the deaths was the fact that the kinngs children were illigitimite. it was not eddards fault that he was unable to stop the war. but his death wasn't the cause, just the catilist.

He could have done many things:

- He could've stayed behind in his region saying to his old pal King: Brother, sorry I can't do that.

- He could've stayed behind in his region explaining to King that there are very bad things happening near the Walls.

- Even if he went with king. He is a Hand of the King. The Second person in a Kingdom. He could've gathered all the main people near King and stated to them that all the king's children are bastards and gave them the proof. This way nothing happens.

As for the King himself. He is stupid as well. How come he couldn't notice that his children from his wife didn't look like him. While his bastard children looked like him

I like my kings especially main characters to be smart

[master]

1) Stark should have been smart enough at least not to send his people to ranging when so many of them were mysteriously disappearing. He should have been smart enough to stay at the Wall defending it when strange things were happening there. He chopped the head of a 40 year veteran whose eyes were filled with fear! A 40 year Veteran can be feared of what?!! if not for Others? Stark should have been honorable enough not to confess for the things he didn't do ! He should have been smart enough to at least consider: They fooled me once (King's wife) They fooled me twice (City garrison) So now they'll fool me thrice and kill me even if I confess!!!

I do truly hate STUPID main characters

1.eddard was not in charge of the wall. jeor mormont was.

2. the disappearences only started happing after eddard left

3. he dies at the end of the first book. so you wouldnt have ti deal with his stupidity after that.

He could have done many things:

- He could've stayed behind in his region saying to his old pal King: Brother, sorry I can't do that.

- He could've stayed behind in his region explaining to King that there are very bad things happening near the Walls.

- Even if he went with king. He is a Hand of the King. The Second person in a Kingdom. He could've gathered all the main people near King and stated to them that all the king's children are bastards and gave them the proof. This way nothing happens.

- i can agree with that

-he isnt in charge of the wall, and again, it only became serious after he left.

- that is what he did. renly asked him to support a coup and use joffrey as a pupped, petyr said he'd support stark and betrayed him. and doing it publicly would have started a civil war any way [i'm sure that tywin would have loved to ignore the slander of having his grandchildren be called abominations].

that said if you prefer mary sue geniuses I would still suggest you not read only. the characters in the series are as close to human as possible and do make mistakes.

and anyway most of the mistakes that happened in the war were robbs, and he doesnt even get any pov chapters. it was robb, not eddard who let theon go to his father, after ignoring his advisors, it was robb who decided to knock up some random gir, it was robb who decided to go south in the first place.

not to mention the fact that ot wasnt edddards stupidy that got him killed. if it wasnt for joffrey, he WOULD be at the wall helping out. even cersei the mad could see that it would be better to send eddard to the wall.

[ProfessorMLyon]

I have to say that I am surprised by the number of people here who are not fans of Martin. Most of the other boards I have frequented have raved about him and his masterpiece. Glad to know that I am with others that really don't care.

Ah I hope you'll love it, my favorite part was how it was actually starting where most fantasy books quit, after the "Dark Lord" is defeated.

I agree that that I really enjoyed the Well of Ascension for that reason. The Big Bad has been defeated, only to find out that the Big Bad wasn't really as bad as previously thought, and that there is a Bigger Bad who really wants to make things bad. Does that make sense?

[Shivertongue]

I have to say that I am surprised by the number of people here who are not fans of Martin. Most of the other boards I have frequented have raved about him and his masterpiece. Glad to know that I am with others that really don't care.

I'm a fan of Martin's. Word-for-word, he's one of the best writers writing today, and the story is fantastic. He's just killed off all the characters I like, save three, which leaves me with little investment in large portions of the story.

I'm also pissed at him for taking so long to finish A Dance of Dragons, and getting pissy with his fans who ask about it. With all the other stuff he's doing - working on the show, editing anthologies, writing short stories, etc- it almost comes across like he doesn't care.

So my issue is with him, not his work.

Except for Feast for Crows. That book pissed me off.

[Honor]

I read the first three books, I don't know if I will ever read the rest. I agree Martin is a capable and interesting writer, and the series is unique in that virtually no character is "safe" from being killed, (usually in a horrible manner). But at some point the moral greyness is just too much for me. It is one thing to have anti-heroes or "good" characters who you find out aren't, but the actions of characters just started getting to the point where it just all felt to contrived to create drama. And judging by plot summaries I've read of the newer books it doesn't get any better in the newer books. He certainly doesn't hold any punches when it comes to describing the brutality and violence of the war either, which I understand some people like, but it does get a little too gratuitous for my tastes.

I did like some of the bigger plot ideas and the setting but honestly with the complexity of the plot lines that has been created due to all the drama (of "good" characters constantly making ridiculous choices and bad characters that really aren't so bad once you get to know them honestly) I can't help but think there is no way Martin will be able to create an adequate ending that successfully wraps things up. Think "Lost".

[Piestein]

Well, I disagree strongly with most opinions here (although they have the right to such opinions). (By the way, side note - sorry for the necro post, I know this is an old thread, but there aren't that many new threads in this section of the forums.)

First, I would suggest reading a book rather than reading the summaries. Honestly, summaries do no justice. The whole plot of the Wheel of Time has already been written (with remarkable similarities, there were rumours about a case against Jordan, I believe, but I don't know if that actually happened) and it was written Poorly in my opinion (after finishing the books, I didn't want to read for 4 months - not the best decision in my life, but it wasn't an unfounded one either). I am talking about the Belgariad. Now, some people can say that the Wheel of Time sucks too, and I can admit that some books are of lesser quality than others (the 6th, the 8th and the 10th, mostly), however, even to those people I can say - the previous series is at least ten times worse than the Wheel of Time. Honestly - it is bad. Really bad. (Of course, I realise that maybe people like that book. Them, I congratulate, because it takes a remarkable person to like something despite all of its ugliness.)

What happens in the book is not the only important thing and I would dare to say that it isn't the most important thing either. So why read resumes?

As to the other points. Now, I understand why you guys hate Martin. I almost wept for Ned Stark (I was 10 or 11 when I read the first book) and I certainly hated him during the 4th book. The fifth one is excellent, by the way - the writing is of very high quality, the pacing is excellent and more things happen in that book that in the 4th and the 3rd altogether.

Also, as to the lack of genius - I actually prefer it. It is somewhat tiring to see Champions of Light all the time. However, you shouldn't look at it from the "good guys are stupid, bad guys are not so bad" point of view. The way the characters in the books work is, you have a character with his own drives, moral system and choices, he continues to be that person and then, suffers the consequences. Characters change, but they don't get saved just because they came back to the light side. Also, some bad guys remain bad guys. Spoiler example: Joffrey remains a little s**t.

Finally, you have seriously not seen anything from the series if you stopped at the first book and didn't even finish it. I suggest you watch the series if you don't have the time for the books - although the books are more complete than the series, you do know already what will happen, so the books are kind of ruined for you - if you know who dies, then you can't appreciate the cliff hangers.

Anyway, all of this is just my opinion. I guess I am somewhat biased, but just for the record, I would like to point out that I read A Dance of Dragons (the 5th book) a year and a half later than it came out, because I felt I wouldn't enjoy it. I was quickly convinced otherwise, once I started it.

P.S. I think Ned died because the author wanted him dead. If he was to be on trial before the king/queen later on, he would be spared, because that was the idea - he confesses, doesn't get killed, the kingdom is not savagely torn apart by wars. That is also why his confession was a good idea. But tant pis, my dead friend, the author wanted to make a point about main characters - they are human and humans die. Such cases do not repeat further on, or if they do, they are a rare case.

[Telcontar]

my turn in having finished all five books.

While they had been recommended to me by lots of people, I don't really agree.

Martin surely has an amazing style, his writing is easily better than most of what I've read before. It's like BS has said, the skill Martin has in describing characters won't be found elsewhere.

However this is what bothered me, and I think this is why in this forum there are others like me, who didn't like the books that much. Nothing happens in those books. Don't get me wrong, I know very well that there is things happening all the time. Only, they happen elsewhere. They don't happen "on-screen". There was a battle there, another there, that one has been killed, that castle has been taken but it seldom happens in the POVs we get. What we get is intrigues, stupidities, people being stupid. After the disappointment of book 4, I was looking forward to ADoD, but martin managed to make boring characters even out of Jon and Daenerys. Seriously in the whole book Dany had one interesting scene: when she finally mounted her dragon.

You see, as BS-fans, we are used to descriptions of fights, magic and battles. That's what we miss in Martin. My opinion of course.

btw, I say Jon isn't dead. When main characters get killed, they get killed for good. You see in the books that they are dead. It's the same as with Brienne. She was hanged, the book ended and she reappeared. She may be one of those undead, like Dondarrion, Catelyn or Gregor Clegane but still. We'll see. In ten years probably...

[Trizee]

I think the issue with Martin is that the point of his books isn't to excite us. The point of his books is to show a really really dark bad and grim world, and that he does well. Martin's books show a pretty bleak take on reality, where pretty much everyone is looking out for themselves, and people who aren't will probably get killed or at least have a very hard time getting anything done (like Dany in Meereen). If your looking for an action packed fantasy novel, then don't read these books. But these books are very well written, and have characters who actually stay in character- even if it means the author has to kill them off (or someone else- like Joffrey having Ned executed), and each character is unique and interesting.

[Leon.]

In my opinion, the only problem Martin has is his inability to give us novels at a decent speed. Other than that... His novels have no flaw.

[guess]

I read the first three books, I don't know if I will ever read the rest. I agree Martin is a capable and interesting writer, and the series is unique in that virtually no character is "safe" from being killed, (usually in a horrible manner). But at some point the moral greyness is just too much for me. It is one thing to have anti-heroes or "good" characters who you find out aren't, but the actions of characters just started getting to the point where it just all felt to contrived to create drama. And judging by plot summaries I've read of the newer books it doesn't get any better in the newer books. He certainly doesn't hold any punches when it comes to describing the brutality and violence of the war either, which I understand some people like, but it does get a little too gratuitous for my tastes.

I did like some of the bigger plot ideas and the setting but honestly with the complexity of the plot lines that has been created due to all the drama (of "good" characters constantly making ridiculous choices and bad characters that really aren't so bad once you get to know them honestly) I can't help but think there is no way Martin will be able to create an adequate ending that successfully wraps things up. Think "Lost".

If you study the middle ages, these books are much closer to how things really were. In pre-industrial societies only a tiny fraction of people can be wealthy. They maintain their wealth by repressing others. The concept of moral actions is actually pretty modern. His books were written to resemble the actual period. The darkness was done to be different.

This reminds of some John Scalzi blog entries where he says no matter what you write or do someone will not like it for some reason. I can't really argue with this guy about his reasoning for not liking it. The moral ambiguity is why I like it.

All that being said, I think the books would have been more interesting if Joffrey was actually a good kid. This would have left Eddard in a really tough situation. Joffrey means well and not having a civil war is in everyone's interest, but his silly honor requires him to tell Stannis which engulfs the realm in civil war. Making Joffrey a little bastard, makes some of the decisions by others easier.

Edited July 16, 2012 by guess

[guess]

BTW, I don't see the point in even responding to the initial poster. If you only read 10 chapters, then read the cliff notes in the wiki, you don't know enough about the story to really make a decision. So what is the point in arguing with a know it all? He doesn't like the story. It would be kind of different if he stopped after 10 chapters cause he thought it was boring and didn't like the writing style, etc... , he basically looked at the cliff notes and decided he knows best. So what is the point?

[Tamzin Ashevai]

I have to admit that I bypassed all previous comments on this topic before my own. Given that, I have to say that I've loved ASoIaF ever since I began reading it. Even in stating this, I know that some of my own friends disagree with me in my assessment of this novel! So what?

[Lady_Yasha]

I have to admit that I bypassed all previous comments on this topic before my own. Given that, I have to say that I've loved ASoIaF ever since I began reading it. Even in stating this, I know that some of my own friends disagree with me in my assessment of this novel! So what?

Eh, people have their own opinions. Personally I dislike ASoIaF because Martin seems to think that no-one can be anything other than a variant of a jackass. Character archetypes are so similar I have trouble distinguishing who's who and often get the feeling one character is a parody of another.

Game of Thrones and Clash of Kings were good reads, but it started to stagnate after that.

[Cracknut]

Tried reading it. Writing style was boring. Not really much fantasy for epic fantasy genre... I like books with black and gray morality/gritty realism but it wasn't as good at that as others I've read. Average book, Nothing best about it. I liked TV series though.

[Trizee]

Eh, people have their own opinions. Personally I dislike ASoIaF because Martin seems to think that no-one can be anything other than a variant of a jackass. Character archetypes are so similar I have trouble distinguishing who's who and often get the feeling one character is a parody of another.

Game of Thrones and Clash of Kings were good reads, but it started to stagnate after that.

I'll agree with you that their is an excess of side characters that you can sometimes get confused about, but I think the viewpoint characters are all unique and not all them are bad- only some. Ned, Jon, Sam, Arya, Sansa, Catelyn,and Bran are definitely good people.

[Lady_Yasha]

Tried reading it. Writing style was boring. Not really much fantasy for epic fantasy genre... I like books with black and gray morality/gritty realism but it wasn't as good at that as others I've read. Average book, Nothing best about it. I liked TV series though.

And this is one of the major complaints I have with the fans:

"Read ASoIaF, it's realistic because it's gritty."

Realism isn't always gritty and I'm told constantly by fans of the books that it's realistic purely because there's a lot of bloodshed. Admittedly, I picked up Game of Thrones for that reason but I got bored in the third book because the writing was dull.

Maybe I would have slogged through it but the fans put me off more with a sense of obligation to finish them because I won't find a more realistic fantasy anywhere...

Then Knife of Dreams came out and I forgot completely about ASoIaF

[Voidbringer]

I enjoyed it very much, though I do think Martin went overboard on the sex. It can be used to advance a plot, especially in the case of political intrigue (which this series has), but it becomes borderline erotica at times, which I could definitely do without.

On a different note, Arya Stark is freaking awesome! Oh and the Viserys-Khal Drogo "confrontation" is still one of my favorite moments in the series.