CCQ Posted September 17, 2014 Report Share Posted September 17, 2014 It seems that all worlds share similarities of end positive, neutral, and negative or some other versions of them such as creating, transferring, and destroying. The most prominent example that comes to mind is Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy. However on Roshar and Sel there are examples of this too. On Sel the end negative is the Drakhor i.e. to transport themselves they kill one of their own, an example of end neutral is when at the very end one character uses motion in shapes to do things (I can't properly quote now), and end positive would be the Aons where very little is needed on the users part. On Roshar it can be broken down also with Honor being the positive/creating and Odium as negative/destroying. Personally, I think that the Nightwatcher is the end neutral with her boon and curse which supports her being a form of Cultivation. The difficulty is in Warbreaker but it still seems that end neutral is where you can put Breath into an object and retrieve it, end negative if you create a Lifeless because you can't retrieve the Breath back. I can't think of anything end positive for it. It may be that end positive is actually when you create a Lifeless since that's only 1 Breath and end negative if it's inanimate as that would be 1000. Also, I looked on the forums and it didn't seem like anyone made the comparison so if you see something please refer me to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkistan Posted September 17, 2014 Report Share Posted September 17, 2014 (edited) I'd doubt that everything can be categorized like that on each world, given this: Source: Adrienne Can the various forms of Investiture on other worlds in the Cosmere be classified as "end positive" or "end negative" like they are on Scadrial? Brandon Sanderson Some can. Not all. Edited September 17, 2014 by Kurkistan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeiryWriter Posted September 17, 2014 Report Share Posted September 17, 2014 I'd doubt that everything can be categorized like that on each world, given this: Source: However all systems can be classified as end-positive, end-negative, or end-neutral (which the question does not ask about). Windrunner Can all Investitures be classified as end-positive, neutral, or negative? Brandon Sanderson Yes, though in the overwhelming majority of cases, it's end-positive or at least neutral. Hemalurgy really is an oddity in the cosmere (source) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkistan Posted September 17, 2014 Report Share Posted September 17, 2014 Well doy. Shows me for reading too quick and classifying that WoB as saying that the tripartite system was incomplete. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the winter system Posted October 12, 2014 Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 What is Stormlight Archive? End-neutral, right? Because in order to use their abilities they must have a certain amount of Stormlight? Or would it be end-positive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted October 12, 2014 Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 Surgebinding is end-positive, like Allomancy. They constantly take in new Investiture. In Awakening, which is end-neutral, they use Investiture they already have then they take it back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incheoul Posted October 12, 2014 Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 I recall kaladin binding a rock or something to the wall and then taking back the stormlight. That almost kinda maybe sounds like end neutral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeiryWriter Posted October 12, 2014 Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 I recall kaladin binding a rock or something to the wall and then taking back the stormlight. That almost kinda maybe sounds like end neutral. But the power source, Stormlight, originates from an external source (presumably a Shard or combination of Shards) which is what makes it end-positive. Feruchemy and Awakening (the only known examples of end-neutral systems) are both powered by investiture that originates from people, Stormlight doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgedancer Posted October 12, 2014 Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 Surgebinding is end-positive, like Allomancy. They constantly take in new Investiture. In Awakening, which is end-neutral, they use Investiture they already have then they take it back. Doesn´t Awakening require color as an additional fuel for the transfer? I´m not certan wheter that would count as end-positive (outside energy source) or end-negative (Investure loss in the object used) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeiryWriter Posted October 12, 2014 Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 Doesn´t Awakening require color as an additional fuel for the transfer? I´m not certan wheter that would count as end-positive (outside energy source) or end-negative (Investure loss in the object used) Awakening being end-neutral is WoB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgedancer Posted October 12, 2014 Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 Awakening being end-neutral is WoB. A Feruchemist could sit in one place all day and continue to store and tap the same attribute all day over and over again, because he´s tossing around the same energy, which is why it´s end-neutral. However, a Awakener would at one point have to stop and change location becuase he lacks the color to fuel his magic. Unless you have an explanation how needing fuel counts as end-negative having a WoB is good and all but it´s at odd with what the book actually shows us.. Not saying that it´s neccesarilly wrong but if there is an explanation, like the fuel not counting as part of the awakening or it being conserved in someway, it would certainly be interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeiryWriter Posted October 12, 2014 Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 A Feruchemist could sit in one place all day and continue to store and tap the same attribute all day over and over again, because he´s tossing around the same energy, which is why it´s end-neutral. However, a Awakener would at one point have to stop and change location becuase he lacks the color to fuel his magic. Unless you have an explanation how needing fuel counts as end-negative having a WoB is good and all but it´s at odd with what the book actually shows us.. Not saying that it´s neccesarilly wrong but if there is an explanation, like the fuel not counting as part of the awakening or it being conserved in someway, it would certainly be interesting. Q [30:33]: Is Awakening and BioChroma an end-neutral system? A: Yes. You don't lose Breath in the process of Awakening. (source) Color being lost in Awakening is the same as metal being lost in Allomancy, it doesn't impact where the investiture comes from, which is the defining feature of end-states. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgedancer Posted October 12, 2014 Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 (source) Color being lost in Awakening is the same as metal being lost in Allomancy, it doesn't impact where the investiture comes from, which is the defining feature of end-states. It isn´t really the same. Sure metal gets destroyed in Allomancy but it isn´t lost, because it also gets magically restored in whatever mine it comes from and the Investure both originates from and returns back to Preservation/Harmony/ShardX. With Awakening the bleached object is permanently damaged and we have no clue what happens with the Investure won from the color/spiritual connection of the collor/whatever form of energy is exactly used as fuel but it certainly doesn´t return to the place it was taken from and is not generated by a Shard. Granted I don´t fully understand what you mean with the last part so feel free to tell if I understand something wrong. it doesn't impact where the investiture comes from, which is the defining feature of end-states. Awakening has two energy sources 1) the Breath (end-neutral as the WoB states) 2)the colour (probably end-negative, impacts it´s scource permanently and is ignored by the WoB) Neutral and negative combined make an overall negative. Sure, if we look only at the awakener the process is neutral for him but that is kind of like saying that Hemalurgy is neutral/positive because the person that does the spiking doesn´t lose any Investure. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Link Start Posted October 12, 2014 Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 In Allomancy, the lost metal does not come back to whatever mine it came from. It only happens with Atium, which is the body of Ruin. But there is net gain of energy, since you use a ironpull/steelpush and generate momentum, and that powers come from an outside source. With breath, you could say that there is also a net gain of energy, since the Awakened object moves without needing any form of power source (apparently). And a net loss of color. Would color be the fuel, then? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgedancer Posted October 12, 2014 Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 (edited) In Allomancy, the lost metal does not come back to whatever mine it came from. It only happens with Atium, which is the body of Ruin. But there is net gain of energy, since you use a ironpull/steelpush and generate momentum, and that powers come from an outside source. With breath, you could say that there is also a net gain of energy, since the Awakened object moves without needing any form of power source (apparently). And a net loss of color. Would color be the fuel, then? Haha! This time I have WoB. (Well, a pharaphrased one but still) I just got back from the Phoenix Comic on, where Brandon is a guest at, and I must say it was an honor to meet him. He read parts of Wax/Wayne 2, Legion 2, and the Taravangian interlude in WoR. There weren't a lot of cosmeric goodies, but I did get a couple interesting tidbits in relation to Mistborn: Ruin would have had to manifest to reabsorb the atium, the Well of Ascension did not come at a price to Preservation's power, and perhaps the most interesting one. Burned metals are turned into a different form, and will eventually return to the planet. The Pits of Hath sin are meant to foreshadow this. Source (Bolded by me.) Edited October 12, 2014 by Edgedancer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner Posted October 12, 2014 Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 It isn´t really the same. Sure metal gets destroyed in Allomancy but it isn´t lost, because it also gets magically restored in whatever mine it comes from and the Investure both originates from and returns back to Preservation/Harmony/ShardX. With Awakening the bleached object is permanently damaged and we have no clue what happens with the Investure won from the color/spiritual connection of the collor/whatever form of energy is exactly used as fuel but it certainly doesn´t return to the place it was taken from and is not generated by a Shard. That's why the Tears of Edgli exist. To return color to Nalthis in a similar way that metal returns to Scadrial. I'm pretty sure there's a quote somewhere around here that makes it more explicit, but it just makes sense. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgedancer Posted October 12, 2014 Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 (edited) That's why the Tears of Edgli exist. To return color to Nalthis in a similar way that metal returns to Scadrial. I'm pretty sure there's a quote somewhere around here that makes it more explicit, but it just makes sense. Yeah, that would make sense, even more so than saying that they are Endowments physical manifestation, of course then we have the same situation as with Allomancy which is end-positive, just that not all the Investure comes from the fuel. Edited October 12, 2014 by Edgedancer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallen Rope Posted October 12, 2014 Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 All investitures do seem to destroy something not just Awakening, Breath uses colour, Stormlight uses heat, Mist uses metals, Feruchemy uses some of the power when you drain a lot, and no idea about the Dor in most cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted October 12, 2014 Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 (edited) End-neutral/end-positive/end-negative have nothing to do with the "fuel" (metals/colors). Brandon's made it clear in WoBs that it refers only to the Investiture aspect. To steal Weiry's quote: Q [30:33]: Is Awakening and BioChroma an end-neutral system?A: Yes. You don't lose Breath in the process of Awakening. (source) Color isn't considered by Brandon. It's not about energy. It's just Investiture. Sure, we could say that every system is end-negative because it uses fuel (Feruchemy uses calories to power the brain, etc.), but that's less useful than the current classifications. We could also set up a separate end-negative/end-positive labeling system to account for things like metals returning... but I'm not sure why we would do that? Edited October 12, 2014 by Moogle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner Posted October 12, 2014 Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 I tend to think of those things less as fuel and more as the Physical aspect of the magic system. Perhaps that will help clarify it a bit. Metals and color aren't adding any energy to the Investiture, they seem to be more of a doorway through which the spiritual energy comes to the physical realm. They can shape it sometimes, such as in the case of metals, but they do not power the Investiture themselves, they are merely consumed by it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgedancer Posted October 12, 2014 Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 What confuses me a bit about this is what the color is actually for. With metal and Allomancy the metal isn´t really a fuel, in that it doesn´t add Investure, it just tells the actual Investure what to do. This is not the case with Awakening, that´s what commands are for, so what purpose does the color have if not to add Investure for the transfer? On that note, was it ever confirmed that Surgebinding destroys/decomposes heat or is that still just a theory? Just asking because Selish magic (from what I know) doesn´t destroy anything physical (ignoring the evil monks) and if we have one case of magic without destruction then color shouldn´t be destroyed just for destruction´s sake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted October 12, 2014 Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 The best WoB we have on the color thing is this: KurkistanBioChroma:Do Breaths inherently possess the ability to interpret and carry out commands, or does the Awakener need to impart that decision making ability on Awakened objects?If the Awakener does need to impart the decision-making ability, then does Awakening consist of an Awakener copying a portion of his/her Cognitive aspect (as determined by his/her visualization and verbal Command) onto the Cognitive aspect of the object being Awakened, with Breath then providing the "juice" for the object to actually follow its Command: powering both physical motion and "cogitation" based upon the copied Cognitive aspect?-If so, is that copying what drains color?Brandon SandersonYou're very close here.(source) As to the consumption of metals, it's not required. You can use Preservation's mist and power Allomancy without the metals. Surgebinding creates a lot of frost, so it makes sense that it'd take heat, but it's definitely a theory. Recent WoB is that the whole frost-glyph thing is a compressing of the Three Realms, so there might be something there if anyone's feeling up to theorizing that. (The obvious theory is that each Radiant on the spiritweb is marked as being of the Radiant Order X, and then when the Realms compress the Physical reflects this by drawing the Cognitive symbol associated with this marking. But that doesn't explain why it uses frost.) Selish Investiture doesn't seem to use up anything, but it's powered by the Dor "leaking" through the symbols, and all other "fuel" consumption is done to move Investiture - you want to move Breath, you drain color. You want to get Preservation's Investiture from somewhere to you, you have to burn metals. You want to get Stormlight from a gem to you, it drains heat. Because the Dor is just always trying to get through, it sort of makes sense it doesn't consume anything. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incheoul Posted October 14, 2014 Report Share Posted October 14, 2014 Would be nice if there was clear cut definition of Investiture and what exactly determines End-Positive, Neutral, and Negative. I've heard some people say that End-Positive was that the investiture was from an outside source and some say that it was a net gain of power with no mention to whether you count investiture, fuel, or whatever. Here's my understanding of some of the magic systems and I could be off on some of this stuff. Surgebinding (manifestation of Investiture on Roshar) Investiture: Stormlight Prereq: Oathes/Actions End-Positive due to net gain of power versus loss of Stormlight? Allomancy (manifestation of Investiture on Scadrial) Investiture: sDNA-Connection to Preservation, Mist? Focus: Metal (or Mist) Prereq: Snapping End-Positive due to gaining power with no cost to investiture albeit at the cost of the metal Feruchemy (manifestation of Investiture on Scadrial) Investiture: sDNA-Connection to Preservation/Ruin Focus: Metal End-Neutral due to getting back exactly what you put into metalminds (no net gain or loss) Hemalurgy (manifestation of Investiture on Scadrial) Investiture: Connection to Ruin? Focus: Metal End-Negative due to net power loss from transferring the powers/abilities from one person to another Awakening (manifestation of Investiture on Nalthis) Investiture: Breath Focus: Mental Image, Vocal Command Fuel: Color End-Neutral due to no net gain or loss of Investiture, albeit at the cost of Color 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallen Rope Posted October 14, 2014 Report Share Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) A few things that are missing Surgebinding Fuel- heat? Focus- gems(in soulcasting and possibly regrowth) and the spren, there seems to be two. Allomancy Investiture- The mists are the investiture that is used (the link to Preservation is also investiture but it doesn't power Allomancy). Fuel- Metal is the focus and fuel. Feruchemy Fuel- The power that is lost when you draw a lot at once is kind of a fuel. Hemalurgy Fuel- It could be life or blood. About the Dor. I think the Dor is one big system like Allomancy, there is a WoB somewhere. Each country is like a mistling or KR order. Investiture- The dor. Focus- The persons identity and symbols, again their are two focuses. Fuel- no idea. End- normally positive, Dakor might not be. Edited October 14, 2014 by Fallen Rope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incheoul Posted October 15, 2014 Report Share Posted October 15, 2014 I don't know if I'd call spren a focus. I see focus as more of a catalyst of sorts. The gems for soul casting sure, but it wasn't needed when Lift was performing regrowth unless you are referring to that fabrial Nalan used on Szeth. Also, I didn't think any power was lost with Feruchemy. Example: You could get 4x speed for 10s or 2x speed for 20s. What you put in the metal mind is what you got back, only you could control if it was all at once or in smaller burst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts