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How to defend against shard plate, shard blades, wind runners, ect.


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#141 Sunblesser

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 05:17 PM

honestly, i wouldn't put it past the alethi to suppress crossbows and ballista intentionally. they're very short-sighted and love to play with their toys. giving any common dark-eyes the ability to crack their shardplate with a few well placed crossbow bolts would be highly repellent to them. I do believe the greatbows were developed specifically to hunt chasm-fiends. we don't see them during plateau assaults do we? despite the alethi being well aware that the parshendi possess shards.
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#142 Kurkistan

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 07:34 PM

honestly, i wouldn't put it past the alethi to suppress crossbows and ballista intentionally. they're very short-sighted and love to play with their toys. giving any common dark-eyes the ability to crack their shardplate with a few well placed crossbow bolts would be highly repellent to them. I do believe the greatbows were developed specifically to hunt chasm-fiends. we don't see them during plateau assaults do we? despite the alethi being well aware that the parshendi possess shards.


I don't think that suppression would cause a lack of crossbows.

Remember that the Alethkar and Jah Kaved have the vast majority of Blades/Plate, so basically every other country would have an incentive to develop a means to counter them. This applies equally well on the micro-scale: any Highprince or other noble facing an imbalance of shards would have an incentive to develop a counter-measure.

Crossbows are also useful in and of themselves, both as a low-skill replacement to bows and as anti-armor weaponry, not to mention the benefits of artillery and siege weaponry in war (EDIT: As applies to ballistae, I mean).

As to greatbows, perhaps. We know that it's relatively rare to run into a Parshendi Shardbearer, and that, even without the Blade, someone in Plate is immensely effective on the frontlines. On the other hand, we know that Sadeas has broken off encounters with enemy Shardbearers several times; either he did not have the time to retreat and fetch a greatbow (or he didn't bring it to the battle, or the Parshendi Shardbearer retreated before he could get it), or greatbows are not, in fact, designed to counter Plate.

Edited by Kurkistan, 01 June 2012 - 09:42 PM.

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#143 dj26792

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 02:17 AM

I'm going to have to vote for massed crossbows and half shard shields as the best shard counter and half shard walls and tower shields as a szeth counter. If you have a 100 crossbows trained to fire in say 4m square spread pattern you are going to inflict significant damage to almost all the pieces of plate, if you then follow that up with more volleys or even a cavalry charge, eventually the shard bearer will take critical damage, in an army formation heavy infantry with a half shard tower shield could just swarm them and pin them up against their own lines then use halberds or similar to smash them from behind the lines.

szeth defence is easier, you just build your inner sanctum out of half shard walls, and then using custom shields that fill the corridors and large numbers of men pin him against a wall and go to town on him with what ever is handy.
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#144 Inkthinker

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 10:41 AM

All that sorta depends upon an infinite supply of half-shard tech, which if I recall is a fairly recent development and probably somewhat cost-prohibitive to use just anywhere.

I could see crossbows being suppressed in Alethkar or Jah Kaved, but as mentioned I wouldn't be surprised to see them in other nations that don't have the shard superiority. Just remember, the problem with crossbows is that they take a bit of time to reload. If there's only a handful of guys with crossbows, they had better get in some VERY good shots with the first volley or that shard-bearer is going to get in amongst them, and then it gets splattery real quick.
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#145 king of nowhere

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 11:28 AM

heavy crossbows would probably be the most cost effective counter against shardplates, as they could be built in stock and given to a significant portion of the army. much of that effectiveness, however, depends on how much damage they would actually do to a shard, and that is only speculative.
halfshards are probably too expensive to fit an army with, and against regular soldiers are no more useful than a normal shield - and heavier. but maybe a regiment of men trained just to fight shardbeares would make sense. elite soldiers armed with halfshards, heavy hammers and stiletto daggers and trained to coordinated fight against a shardbearer, they would be the roshan equivalent of hazekillers on scadrial. Advance under the shield, try to close range with the shardbearer so that he can't swing much his long sword, jump over him countering the shard-enhanced strenght with numers, and when the shardbearer is down try to block his sword and crak him with hammers or put the dagger in his eye. I suppose a dozen such men would be dangerous to a isolated shardbearer.
Ballistae would not be effective, I think. the problem is, they cannot be pointed like a crossbow. it is virtually impossible to hit a single running men. if said men is in the middle of your ranks, you'd just kill your own men. they would still be useful against the bulk of an army, tough.

against a surgebinder, it is much more difficult to defend. it all depends on how much stormlight he has, really. with enough stormlight, a surgebinder could just lash an object towards the enemy, at 10, 20 or 100 times the acceleration of gravity. szeth did a 20x once, and the result destroied a shardbearer. an item thrown that way would accumulate enough kinetic energy to have the power of an artillery shell. it would be able to breack any obstacle.
Maybe i'd go for soldiers armed with pikes (so it will be difficult to just jump on them with a lashing) to keep him at bay, and then pelt him with arrows until he run out of stormlight.
another option would be to just swarm him with regular soldiers, so that in melee he can't do much fancy manuevers and can rely "only" on strenght and speed.
A third chance may be trying to get a hidden archer to shoot him by surprise. I'm not sure if the surgebinder has to be conscious of an arrow to deflect it, but he at least must have that abbility (don't remember the name) activated, and since it drains stormlight all the time, he probably cannot afford to leave it on all the time just in case of a stray arrow.
I feel neither of those would be effective against szeth, but they could probably get a less skilled surgebinder.
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#146 Inkthinker

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 04:20 PM

Hazekillers for Shardbearers? Sounds like a plan.

I think if a shardbearer were hit often enough by concentrated crossbow fire, it'd be enough to crack and potentially even disable shardplate, but a single bolt won't do it. Not even a handful, you'd need to be hit hard and in short order.

Maybe it would help soften 'em up, and if they don't have a shardblade you could overwhelm them with numbers and weight, but if you're one-to-one your best bet is to pull a Kaladin. And even he was lucky, fighting someone who was (if the rumours pan out) inexperienced and over-confident.
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#147 Voidus

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 06:35 PM

Yeah equipping everyone with half-Shards is somewhat cost prohibitive as they require an infused gemstone (presumably one of reasonably significant size) to work, they are actually more useful than ordinary shields even against ordinary weapons as they work by enhancing the durability of the metal, but still way too expensive to give to everyone.
I still think Crossbows are the way to go but there is a bit of the same problem, they are quite expensive to make and less practical to use against other opponents, I think that the best idea is to have er... Shardkillers? Stormslayers? equipped with alternating crossbows and pikes or possibly halfshards if you can afford them. But then if you can afford halfshards you can probably afford soulcasters which IMO is a much more effective way to deal with them.

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#148 Kurkistan

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 06:54 PM

Yeah equipping everyone with half-Shards is somewhat cost prohibitive as they require an infused gemstone (presumably one of reasonably significant size) to work, they are actually more useful than ordinary shields even against ordinary weapons as they work by enhancing the durability of the metal, but still way too expensive to give to everyone.
I still think Crossbows are the way to go but there is a bit of the same problem, they are quite expensive to make and less practical to use against other opponents, I think that the best idea is to have er... Shardkillers? Stormslayers? equipped with alternating crossbows and pikes or possibly halfshards if you can afford them. But then if you can afford halfshards you can probably afford soulcasters which IMO is a much more effective way to deal with them.


A new thought on crossbow manufacture, actually: SOULCASTING IS AWESOME! I totally just now realized this. It's simply the most awesome thing ever, like 3D printing with magic, only better: "Please sir, I want some more crossbows?" "What?! Well, certainly! Why didn't you ask earlier! Just pour some sand into these molds and, voila, I've just soulcasted all of the intricate components as well as perfectly crafted stocks."

That'll be a few infused gemstones and then you can go have fun killing Shardbearers into the foreseeable future, without at any point risking a soulcaster or its wielder.

Edited by Kurkistan, 04 August 2012 - 07:07 PM.

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#149 Voidus

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 07:07 PM

I didn't even think about that! I think that being able to soulcast that well would take some practise but even so, much faster and given that the Shattered plains are where most Soulcasters are these days they do have access to gemhearts with near limitless soulcasting potential.

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#150 Nepene

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 08:36 AM

I agree that against shard plates and shard blades crossbows and siege weapons are the most effective counter- we saw the effectiveness of some sort of heavy rock the parshendi used in the final battle and if they had deployed enough to kill a shardplate in a single volley they would have won. Soulcasting could be used to massively boost production of these weapons.

With regards to countering Sazed, the main issue with him is his extreme agility and gravity bending abilities. His biggest weakness is a lack of shardplate- with no shard plate he can't survive any major blows. There is an obvious counter which would allow you to much more effectively wound and kill him. Go outside. Have a good relay system to warn of his coming and when he attacks go outside where there is no ceiling or wall. Have an emergency escape option at all times which allows you to quickly flee in multiple directions to the outside. You could even have a panic room specially built to flee to which made it harder for him to use his abilities.

Have a group of crossbow or bow or sling troops close by the important target at all times and have them spread out to take potshots at Sazed. Sazed is fast, but if he is being attacked at range from multiple directions and having to fight shard holders or sword fighters he's likely to make errors. Every time he makes an error he'll become more vulnerable to more errors, before his healing kicks in.

Build trap walls. Put some sort of wallpaper on the walls and put broken glass shards behind that paper in the throne room. If he goes to the walls then he'll break through and slice up his legs.

Have men with bags of broken glass attack him. If he slashes at them momentum will carry the broken glass towards his body, if they have freedom to attack they can throw a lot of broken glass at him. Every injury will make fighting harder.
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#151 Kurkistan

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 09:09 AM

I agree that against shard plates and shard blades crossbows and siege weapons are the most effective counter- we saw the effectiveness of some sort of heavy rock the parshendi used in the final battle and if they had deployed enough to kill a shardplate in a single volley they would have won. Soulcasting could be used to massively boost production of these weapons.

With regards to countering Sazed, the main issue with him is his extreme agility and gravity bending abilities. His biggest weakness is a lack of shardplate- with no shard plate he can't survive any major blows. There is an obvious counter which would allow you to much more effectively wound and kill him. Go outside. Have a good relay system to warn of his coming and when he attacks go outside where there is no ceiling or wall. Have an emergency escape option at all times which allows you to quickly flee in multiple directions to the outside. You could even have a panic room specially built to flee to which made it harder for him to use his abilities.

Have a group of crossbow or bow or sling troops close by the important target at all times and have them spread out to take potshots at Sazed. Sazed is fast, but if he is being attacked at range from multiple directions and having to fight shard holders or sword fighters he's likely to make errors. Every time he makes an error he'll become more vulnerable to more errors, before his healing kicks in.

Build trap walls. Put some sort of wallpaper on the walls and put broken glass shards behind that paper in the throne room. If he goes to the walls then he'll break through and slice up his legs.

Have men with bags of broken glass attack him. If he slashes at them momentum will carry the broken glass towards his body, if they have freedom to attack they can throw a lot of broken glass at him. Every injury will make fighting harder.


A bit of a necro, but I've always loved this topic, so I don't mind.

You have constructed a good situation for fighting Szeth. Some fire and explosives would be nice, but you can't have everything. There are two problems, though.

First of all, our primary goal here is to create a non-magical, relatively easily deploy-able, battlefield-ready technique for fighting various magic users. You've hit on the "non-magical" part readily enough, but deployability and battlefield readiness are still an issue.

Yes, Windrunners (including Szeth in that category because of his power set) aren't as dangerous on the battlefield as full Shardbearers, and can be zerg-swarmed into death just like Shardbearers, perhaps even much more easily. But nothing of your plan really improves on that, since you're essentially detailing a defense-plan that happens to require a small army to carry out effectively, not a generalized way to counter Windrunners on the field of battle without sacrificing countless lives.

Second, why would Szeth enter or stay in your Arena of Death? You describe a defense plan, not a battle, so Szeth is there to assassinate someone, steal something, or the like. He assassinates people in their homes partially because it's a lot easier for him to work indoors, so why not just wait until everyone goes home for the night, rather sheepishly, after a day of waiting with their bags of glass to fight a phantom who never showed up?

Even if Szeth walks into this situation and is faced with a battle on a circular, flat plane in order to get at a target in the middle, he can leave very easily. Basic lashing at a 45 degree angle == flight. Basic Lashing at a 90 degree angle, then at 0 degrees == shooting upwards, then flying horizontal to the ground at 9.8 m/s/s. Outside, it's incredibly easy for a Windrunner with no reason to stay to just leave, as long as he has the Stormlight.

EDIT: Or he could even just fly right to his target and take him out, avoiding everyone else in the process.

Edited by Kurkistan, 27 September 2012 - 09:19 AM.

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#152 Voidus

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 09:28 AM

Huzah for Necroing interesting topics!
Yeah surrounding Szeth outdoors isn't going to work, actually this tactic would work better indoors but in either case a reverse Lashing takes care of projectiles or a Basic for dodging. I honestly don't think being outdoors would hamper Szeth much, his mobility is greater than even that of a mistborn and he has a Shardblade which we know works best when given lots of space. Also, Szeth is a total ninja.

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#153 Nepene

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 08:25 PM

A bit of a necro, but I've always loved this topic, so I don't mind.

You have constructed a good situation for fighting Szeth. Some fire and explosives would be nice, but you can't have everything. There are two problems, though.

First of all, our primary goal here is to create a non-magical, relatively easily deploy-able, battlefield-ready technique for fighting various magic users. You've hit on the "non-magical" part readily enough, but deployability and battlefield readiness are still an issue.

Yes, Windrunners (including Szeth in that category because of his power set) aren't as dangerous on the battlefield as full Shardbearers, and can be zerg-swarmed into death just like Shardbearers, perhaps even much more easily. But nothing of your plan really improves on that, since you're essentially detailing a defense-plan that happens to require a small army to carry out effectively, not a generalized way to counter Windrunners on the field of battle without sacrificing countless lives.


I thought about fire, but I doubt their metallurgy is good enough to make a flamethrower or an effective greek oil variant. They're quite complex.

My strategy was devised for Szeth, but is perfectly adaptible to other windrunners. They generally have to get close to an enemy to engage, so give them some troops to kill (some perhaps with bags of glass) while your group of archers or slingers or crossbowmen spread out. Then hit him from behind with irregular hits. Overwhelm his capacity to adapt, ambush him, surprise him. This should be doable with far less troops than simply zerging them. You could feasibly do it with just five or six men if they were well trained, or one skilled sniper in the chaos of battle.

Say, three men attack him. Meanwhile, a short distance away, a pair of crossbowmen are taking aim. He kills a pair of the men in a single swipe or mushes them to the ground with a touch, the crossbowmen fire. He is impaled by a pair of bolts, the third soldier then ganks him. Very hard for him to counter since his magic takes time to do.

Or if he avoids the soldiers and lashes horizontally, the crowssbowmen could hit him while he was in flight if they were skilled enough.

Surprises are the best way to defeat a Windrunner. Lots and lots of surprises, so many that their overwhelming powers can't come into play.

Second, why would Szeth enter or stay in your Arena of Death? You describe a defense plan, not a battle, so Szeth is there to assassinate someone, steal something, or the like. He assassinates people in their homes partially because it's a lot easier for him to work indoors, so why not just wait until everyone goes home for the night, rather sheepishly, after a day of waiting with their bags of glass to fight a phantom who never showed up?


Szeth is honorbound to kill who he is ordered to kill, honor does not retreat. Hence the defense plan.

He assassinates kings, kings can afford to have multiple guards at all times of day. Obviously if you are not very rich you are screwed and you will definitely die. Windrunners are op. Fun magic system.

Even if Szeth walks into this situation and is faced with a battle on a circular, flat plane in order to get at a target in the middle, he can leave very easily. Basic lashing at a 45 degree angle == flight. Basic Lashing at a 90 degree angle, then at 0 degrees == shooting upwards, then flying horizontal to the ground at 9.8 m/s/s. Outside, it's incredibly easy for a Windrunner with no reason to stay to just leave, as long as he has the Stormlight.

EDIT: Or he could even just fly right to his target and take him out, avoiding everyone else in the process.


The target will presumably have people to protect him from Szeth flying at him, may have their own shardplate. If he flies away you can double the guard and prepare better. You understand his powers better and can be better prepared.

Edited by Nepene, 27 September 2012 - 08:26 PM.

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#154 Kurkistan

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 08:34 PM

I thought about fire, but I doubt their metallurgy is good enough to make a flamethrower or an effective greek oil variant. They're quite complex.

My strategy was devised for Szeth, but is perfectly adaptible to other windrunners. They generally have to get close to an enemy to engage, so give them some troops to kill (some perhaps with bags of glass) while your group of archers or slingers or crossbowmen spread out. Then hit him from behind with irregular hits. Overwhelm his capacity to adapt, ambush him, surprise him. This should be doable with far less troops than simply zerging them. You could feasibly do it with just five or six men if they were well trained, or one skilled sniper in the chaos of battle.

Say, three men attack him. Meanwhile, a short distance away, a pair of crossbowmen are taking aim. He kills a pair of the men in a single swipe or mushes them to the ground with a touch, the crossbowmen fire. He is impaled by a pair of bolts, the third soldier then ganks him. Very hard for him to counter since his magic takes time to do.

Or if he avoids the soldiers and lashes horizontally, the crowssbowmen could hit him while he was in flight if they were skilled enough.

Surprises are the best way to defeat a Windrunner. Lots and lots of surprises, so many that their overwhelming powers can't come into play.


Yeah, fire's just a dream, a beautiful, horrible dream...

One problem with ranged weapons is the Reverse Lashing. Szeth can just Lash the ground or carry a Lashed shield and take care of most projectiles, unless he allows himself to be completely surrounded. Surprise would obviously be ideal, but we can't count on it.

Szeth is honorbound to kill who he is ordered to kill, honor does not retreat. Hence the defense plan.

He assassinates kings, kings can afford to have multiple guards at all times of day. Obviously if you are not very rich you are screwed and you will definitely die. Windrunners are op. Fun magic system.


To kill who he's ordered to kill, yes, but not to try at the earliest possible opportunity if that opportunity is sure to result in death. A king can certainly have more guards, but he's got to go inside and not be in the middle of a ring-o-death at some point, as it would be cost-prohibitive, detrimental to his position, and mildly insane to maintain that ring-o-death permanently.

The target will presumably have people to protect him from Szeth flying at him, may have their own shardplate. If he flies away you can double the guard and prepare better. You understand his powers better and can be better prepared.


Yeah, he can obviously have his own set of guards, but Szeth never being able to get close was kind of the point of your scenario, so everything else is just immediately wasted when Szeth Superman's in.

Edited by Kurkistan, 27 September 2012 - 08:35 PM.

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#155 Voidus

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 11:20 PM

I think we discussed fire a while back and decided there just wasn't any practical way to weaponise it against a windrunner.

Say, three men attack him. Meanwhile, a short distance away, a pair of crossbowmen are taking aim. He kills a pair of the men in a single swipe or mushes them to the ground with a touch, the crossbowmen fire. He is impaled by a pair of bolts, the third soldier then ganks him. Very hard for him to counter since his magic takes time to do.

Szeth has already shown us exactly how effective any kind of projectile is against him, surprised or not (0) Obviously if you ambushed him while he was sleeping or something this might work but Szeth is always going to be aware of all his enemies in a combat situation since he wears no armour he can't afford to forget about the spearman behind him (Or in this case the crossbowmen) his Lashings literally take the blink of an eye to perform, he uses it mid-combat all the time.

The target will presumably have people to protect him from Szeth flying at him, may have their own shardplate. If he flies away you can double the guard and prepare better. You understand his powers better and can be better prepared.


The flying away thing was more about avoiding one wave of projectiles than necessarily fleeing the scene I think.

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#156 Nepene

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 06:10 AM

I think we discussed fire a while back and decided there just wasn't any practical way to weaponise it against a windrunner.

Szeth has already shown us exactly how effective any kind of projectile is against him, surprised or not (0) Obviously if you ambushed him while he was sleeping or something this might work but Szeth is always going to be aware of all his enemies in a combat situation since he wears no armour he can't afford to forget about the spearman behind him (Or in this case the crossbowmen) his Lashings literally take the blink of an eye to perform, he uses it mid-combat all the time.

The flying away thing was more about avoiding one wave of projectiles than necessarily fleeing the scene I think.


Yeah, you'd face the same issue that they faced in real life, the short range. Plus they might be able to lash the liquid or gas or solid you were burning up.

The spearmen threw, and Szeth stood still, hand on the doorframe. A Reverse Lashing required his constant touch, but took comparatively little Stormlight. During one, anything that approached him—particularly lighter objects—was instead pulled toward the Lashing itself.


A reverse lashing requires you to constantly touch an object. This anchors you in one place, reducing your agility, and removes one hand from the fight. While you are reverse lashing you are vulnerable to melee attacks and are no longer agile. If he used a shield, a few crossbow bolts in that shield would sharply increase its weight and reduce his agility.

Szeth is very perceptive, but he's shown no godlike ability to be aware of all things at once. Surgebinding doesn't increase perception.

Another group came at Szeth from the side, and he drew Stormlight into his hand and flung it in a Full Lashing across the floor at their feet. This was the Lashing that bonded objects; when the men crossed it, their shoes stuck to the floor. They tripped, and found their hands and bodies Lashed to the floor as well. Szeth stepped through them mournfully, striking.


Because he is not perfect against large groups he used lots of magic to slow them down and weaken them. He would be hard pressed to reverse lash something and slash through a warrior simultaneously.

Suppose a group of ten warriors charges at him. He full lashes them to the ground and begins making pate of them. If he's dicing them up with his shard blade it'd be quite hard for him to reverse lash anything so ranged troops fill him with a couple of bolts. Using his supernatural agility he grabs a man and reverse lashes him, absorbing all the firepower. Meanwhile, one of the remaining soldiers stabs him with a sword.

One problem with ranged weapons is the Reverse Lashing. Szeth can just Lash the ground or carry a Lashed shield and take care of most projectiles, unless he allows himself to be completely surrounded. Surprise would obviously be ideal, but we can't count on it.


He doesn't carry a shield as we have seen, and if he choses to reverse lash a door or something then melee attackers can stab him.

To kill who he's ordered to kill, yes, but not to try at the earliest possible opportunity if that opportunity is sure to result in death. A king can certainly have more guards, but he's got to go inside and not be in the middle of a ring-o-death at some point, as it would be cost-prohibitive, detrimental to his position, and mildly insane to maintain that ring-o-death permanently.


Besides, perhaps a Shardbearer could defeat him, kill him and end his miserable life.


Running would be a very out of character move, he loves overwhelming odds as he is suicidal. He wants someone to put him out of his misery. He can always hope he will be fast and deadly enough to kill everyone.

Also, the delusional king had thousands of men dancing to his paranoia, didn't he? My plans would only require two hundred or so (20 archers, melee warriors, and messengers, eight hour shifts.) Much less paranoid than a bad king. It'd probably cost less to keep up than a single shardplate.

I agree he has to go inside, hence the messengers to warn of an attack.

Yeah, he can obviously have his own set of guards, but Szeth never being able to get close was kind of the point of your scenario, so everything else is just immediately wasted when Szeth Superman's in.


Szeth dead is the point of my scenario. The hope is that before the king runs out of men Szeth will die. Szeth has never just superman'd to an enemy, he kills everyone in his way first.

Edited by Nepene, 28 September 2012 - 06:34 AM.

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#157 Voidus

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 06:22 AM

A reverse lashing requires you to constantly touch an object. This anchors you in one place,

If the anchor you are using is the earth you still have quite a bit of mobility, or use a portable anchor, a rock, a shield, whatever's handy.

While you are reverse lashing you are vulnerable to melee attacks and are no longer agile.

You wouldn't be in a melee if you're reverse lashing, you're being attacked at range, shooting your own troops is not going to help you defeat a Windrunner :P

Szeth is very perceptive, but he's shown no godlike ability to be aware of all things at once. Surgebinding doesn't increase perception.

Kaladin. It must increase your reflexes, even if it's just subtly. I was more referring to Szeths natural abilities though. Considering how many massacres he's survived against superior forces, he must have excellent battle-awareness. I doubt he'd just forget about your crossbowman while he fights the melee combatants, he'd likely try to take them out first but failing that be aware of when they are aiming at him and about to fire.

He full lashes them to the ground and begins making pate of them. If he's dicing them up with his shard blade it'd be quite hard for him to reverse lash anything so ranged troops fill him with a couple of bolts

They're already taken care of, he wouldn't bother killing them until after he dealt with the ranged troops, but he'd likely take out the ranged first anyway.

He doesn't carry a shield as we have seen, and if he choses to reverse lash a door or something then melee attackers can stab him.

If he's being shot at then I doubt anyone else is going to be in melee range, but if they are he'd probably just use the reverse lashing on them to pincushion them with their own bolts.

Running would be a very out of character move, he loves overwhelming odds as he is suicidal. He wants someone to put him out of his misery. He can always hope he will be fast and deadly enough to kill everyone.

But he can't be deliberately suicidal, if he sees a way to kill his target in a manner less likely to result in his death he'll go for it.

Szeth dead is the point of my scenario. The hope is that before the king runs out of men Szeth will die. Szeth has never just superman'd to an enemy, he kills everyone in his way first.

If he has a choice he always tries to kill as few people as possible, yet another reason that he'd wait til the king is alone then ninja in and assassinate him instead of having to kill dozens of soldiers.

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#158 Millennium

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 09:11 AM

Chuck a beehive at them. Seriously. None of those things is going to do much good against a swarm of angry bees.

Our unfortunate Windrunner would quickly find that Basic and Full Lashings are useless against so many targets: there just isn't time to get to them all. Bees can fly, so while a Reverse Lashing may confuse them for a moment (the new "down" and all that), they'll adapt and come right back. Either way, you jab a spear into the cloud of angry bees and you're done.

Our unfortunate Shardbearer doesn't fare much better. The wind generated by his Shardblade will push many of the bees out of the way before it can hit them, and even those that he kills will only amount to a couple out of hundreds, perhaps thousands. There's no way to get them all. Jab a spear into the cloud of angry bees and you're done.

What about our unfortunate Shardplate-user? Is he safe? Not so fast, because Shardplate isn't impermeable: Kaladin taught us that. Smack him in the face, and some of those bees will get into the armor, where they can't be crushed because the armor is rigid, and bees have ways of telling one another where to go. All you have to do is wait for the Shardplate to stop moving, or else for the user to get out of the armor; in this latter case, jab a spear into the cloud of angry bees and you're done.

Here's hoping that Szeth-son-son-Vallano, Truthless of Shinovar, isn't allergic to bees.
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#159 Voidus

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 09:25 AM

Chuck a beehive at them. Seriously. None of those things is going to do much good against a swarm of angry bees.

I love it! Only thing is, do bees exist on Roshar? A beehive doesn't seem likely to survive highstorms, maybe in Shinovar I guess.

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#160 Nepene

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 09:32 AM

If the anchor you are using is the earth you still have quite a bit of mobility, or use a portable anchor, a rock, a shield, whatever's handy.[

You wouldn't be in a melee if you're reverse lashing, you're being attacked at range, shooting your own troops is not going to help you defeat a Windrunner :P


I think this is where the misinterpretation comes from. I am saying you should be more calous. Deliberately fire ranged weapons at him while your melee fighters are engaging him. You may hit your own troops, but if Szech dies the king lives. He should be in a melee and at range and have his defences saturated with attacks.

If he's being shot at then I doubt anyone else is going to be in melee range, but if they are he'd probably just use the reverse lashing on them to pincushion them with their own bolts.


If he wants to do that he's welcome to, but if he slips up once. Indeed, I suggested he should reverse lash someone. Although if enemies are ranged attacking him from enough directions it won't matter.


( )
\ /
) (
##---------> Sazed- Reverse lashed enemy <----------##
) (
/ \
( )

Sad, the forum dislikes my ascii art. You can see it if you quote the text anyway.

If he reverse lashes someone that will just make the arrow fly into his heart faster if his foe is behind him.

But he can't be deliberately suicidal, if he sees a way to kill his target in a manner less likely to result in his death he'll go for it.


I doubt a bunch of archers will seem more suicidal than attacking three men with shardblades.

If he has a choice he always tries to kill as few people as possible, yet another reason that he'd wait til the king is alone then ninja in and assassinate him instead of having to kill dozens of soldiers.


So by logic, if the men never leave him Szech can never attack.

I wonder if you could use women and children to attack him. His code of honor may forbid killing them.

Edit. Beehives. While there is some history of their use in battle, it's relatively easy for these magical beings to avoid them- a windrunner could reverse lash something and then fly away, a shard blade user would be vulnerable to it, but it would be hard to accurately hit the visor of a shard plate user.You may well hurt your troops more than you'd hurt the enemy. Now you don't just have a towering armored killing machine, you have a towering armored killing machine covered in bees.

Edited by Nepene, 28 September 2012 - 09:44 AM.

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