How to defend against shard plate, shard blades, wind runners, ect.

[Kurkistan]

I agree that against shard plates and shard blades crossbows and siege weapons are the most effective counter- we saw the effectiveness of some sort of heavy rock the parshendi used in the final battle and if they had deployed enough to kill a shardplate in a single volley they would have won. Soulcasting could be used to massively boost production of these weapons.

With regards to countering Sazed, the main issue with him is his extreme agility and gravity bending abilities. His biggest weakness is a lack of shardplate- with no shard plate he can't survive any major blows. There is an obvious counter which would allow you to much more effectively wound and kill him. Go outside. Have a good relay system to warn of his coming and when he attacks go outside where there is no ceiling or wall. Have an emergency escape option at all times which allows you to quickly flee in multiple directions to the outside. You could even have a panic room specially built to flee to which made it harder for him to use his abilities.

Have a group of crossbow or bow or sling troops close by the important target at all times and have them spread out to take potshots at Sazed. Sazed is fast, but if he is being attacked at range from multiple directions and having to fight shard holders or sword fighters he's likely to make errors. Every time he makes an error he'll become more vulnerable to more errors, before his healing kicks in.

Build trap walls. Put some sort of wallpaper on the walls and put broken glass shards behind that paper in the throne room. If he goes to the walls then he'll break through and slice up his legs.

Have men with bags of broken glass attack him. If he slashes at them momentum will carry the broken glass towards his body, if they have freedom to attack they can throw a lot of broken glass at him. Every injury will make fighting harder.

A bit of a necro, but I've always loved this topic, so I don't mind.

You have constructed a good situation for fighting Szeth. Some fire and explosives would be nice, but you can't have everything. There are two problems, though.

First of all, our primary goal here is to create a non-magical, relatively easily deploy-able, battlefield-ready technique for fighting various magic users. You've hit on the "non-magical" part readily enough, but deployability and battlefield readiness are still an issue.

Yes, Windrunners (including Szeth in that category because of his power set) aren't as dangerous on the battlefield as full Shardbearers, and can be zerg-swarmed into death just like Shardbearers, perhaps even much more easily. But nothing of your plan really improves on that, since you're essentially detailing a defense-plan that happens to require a small army to carry out effectively, not a generalized way to counter Windrunners on the field of battle without sacrificing countless lives.

Second, why would Szeth enter or stay in your Arena of Death? You describe a defense plan, not a battle, so Szeth is there to assassinate someone, steal something, or the like. He assassinates people in their homes partially because it's a lot easier for him to work indoors, so why not just wait until everyone goes home for the night, rather sheepishly, after a day of waiting with their bags of glass to fight a phantom who never showed up?

Even if Szeth walks into this situation and is faced with a battle on a circular, flat plane in order to get at a target in the middle, he can leave very easily. Basic lashing at a 45 degree angle == flight. Basic Lashing at a 90 degree angle, then at 0 degrees == shooting upwards, then flying horizontal to the ground at 9.8 m/s/s. Outside, it's incredibly easy for a Windrunner with no reason to stay to just leave, as long as he has the Stormlight.

EDIT: Or he could even just fly right to his target and take him out, avoiding everyone else in the process.

Edited September 27, 2012 by Kurkistan

[Voidus]

Huzah for Necroing interesting topics!

Yeah surrounding Szeth outdoors isn't going to work, actually this tactic would work better indoors but in either case a reverse Lashing takes care of projectiles or a Basic for dodging. I honestly don't think being outdoors would hamper Szeth much, his mobility is greater than even that of a mistborn and he has a Shardblade which we know works best when given lots of space. Also, Szeth is a total ninja.

[Nepene]

A bit of a necro, but I've always loved this topic, so I don't mind.

You have constructed a good situation for fighting Szeth. Some fire and explosives would be nice, but you can't have everything. There are two problems, though.

First of all, our primary goal here is to create a non-magical, relatively easily deploy-able, battlefield-ready technique for fighting various magic users. You've hit on the "non-magical" part readily enough, but deployability and battlefield readiness are still an issue.

Yes, Windrunners (including Szeth in that category because of his power set) aren't as dangerous on the battlefield as full Shardbearers, and can be zerg-swarmed into death just like Shardbearers, perhaps even much more easily. But nothing of your plan really improves on that, since you're essentially detailing a defense-plan that happens to require a small army to carry out effectively, not a generalized way to counter Windrunners on the field of battle without sacrificing countless lives.

I thought about fire, but I doubt their metallurgy is good enough to make a flamethrower or an effective greek oil variant. They're quite complex.

My strategy was devised for Szeth, but is perfectly adaptible to other windrunners. They generally have to get close to an enemy to engage, so give them some troops to kill (some perhaps with bags of glass) while your group of archers or slingers or crossbowmen spread out. Then hit him from behind with irregular hits. Overwhelm his capacity to adapt, ambush him, surprise him. This should be doable with far less troops than simply zerging them. You could feasibly do it with just five or six men if they were well trained, or one skilled sniper in the chaos of battle.

Say, three men attack him. Meanwhile, a short distance away, a pair of crossbowmen are taking aim. He kills a pair of the men in a single swipe or mushes them to the ground with a touch, the crossbowmen fire. He is impaled by a pair of bolts, the third soldier then ganks him. Very hard for him to counter since his magic takes time to do.

Or if he avoids the soldiers and lashes horizontally, the crowssbowmen could hit him while he was in flight if they were skilled enough.

Surprises are the best way to defeat a Windrunner. Lots and lots of surprises, so many that their overwhelming powers can't come into play.

Second, why would Szeth enter or stay in your Arena of Death? You describe a defense plan, not a battle, so Szeth is there to assassinate someone, steal something, or the like. He assassinates people in their homes partially because it's a lot easier for him to work indoors, so why not just wait until everyone goes home for the night, rather sheepishly, after a day of waiting with their bags of glass to fight a phantom who never showed up?

Szeth is honorbound to kill who he is ordered to kill, honor does not retreat. Hence the defense plan.

He assassinates kings, kings can afford to have multiple guards at all times of day. Obviously if you are not very rich you are screwed and you will definitely die. Windrunners are op. Fun magic system.

Even if Szeth walks into this situation and is faced with a battle on a circular, flat plane in order to get at a target in the middle, he can leave very easily. Basic lashing at a 45 degree angle == flight. Basic Lashing at a 90 degree angle, then at 0 degrees == shooting upwards, then flying horizontal to the ground at 9.8 m/s/s. Outside, it's incredibly easy for a Windrunner with no reason to stay to just leave, as long as he has the Stormlight.

EDIT: Or he could even just fly right to his target and take him out, avoiding everyone else in the process.

The target will presumably have people to protect him from Szeth flying at him, may have their own shardplate. If he flies away you can double the guard and prepare better. You understand his powers better and can be better prepared.

Edited September 28, 2012 by Nepene

[Kurkistan]

I thought about fire, but I doubt their metallurgy is good enough to make a flamethrower or an effective greek oil variant. They're quite complex.

My strategy was devised for Szeth, but is perfectly adaptible to other windrunners. They generally have to get close to an enemy to engage, so give them some troops to kill (some perhaps with bags of glass) while your group of archers or slingers or crossbowmen spread out. Then hit him from behind with irregular hits. Overwhelm his capacity to adapt, ambush him, surprise him. This should be doable with far less troops than simply zerging them. You could feasibly do it with just five or six men if they were well trained, or one skilled sniper in the chaos of battle.

Say, three men attack him. Meanwhile, a short distance away, a pair of crossbowmen are taking aim. He kills a pair of the men in a single swipe or mushes them to the ground with a touch, the crossbowmen fire. He is impaled by a pair of bolts, the third soldier then ganks him. Very hard for him to counter since his magic takes time to do.

Or if he avoids the soldiers and lashes horizontally, the crowssbowmen could hit him while he was in flight if they were skilled enough.

Surprises are the best way to defeat a Windrunner. Lots and lots of surprises, so many that their overwhelming powers can't come into play.

Yeah, fire's just a dream, a beautiful, horrible dream...

One problem with ranged weapons is the Reverse Lashing. Szeth can just Lash the ground or carry a Lashed shield and take care of most projectiles, unless he allows himself to be completely surrounded. Surprise would obviously be ideal, but we can't count on it.

Szeth is honorbound to kill who he is ordered to kill, honor does not retreat. Hence the defense plan.

He assassinates kings, kings can afford to have multiple guards at all times of day. Obviously if you are not very rich you are screwed and you will definitely die. Windrunners are op. Fun magic system.

To kill who he's ordered to kill, yes, but not to try at the earliest possible opportunity if that opportunity is sure to result in death. A king can certainly have more guards, but he's got to go inside and not be in the middle of a ring-o-death at some point, as it would be cost-prohibitive, detrimental to his position, and mildly insane to maintain that ring-o-death permanently.

The target will presumably have people to protect him from Szeth flying at him, may have their own shardplate. If he flies away you can double the guard and prepare better. You understand his powers better and can be better prepared.

Yeah, he can obviously have his own set of guards, but Szeth never being able to get close was kind of the point of your scenario, so everything else is just immediately wasted when Szeth Superman's in.

Edited September 28, 2012 by Kurkistan

[Voidus]

I think we discussed fire a while back and decided there just wasn't any practical way to weaponise it against a windrunner.

Say, three men attack him. Meanwhile, a short distance away, a pair of crossbowmen are taking aim. He kills a pair of the men in a single swipe or mushes them to the ground with a touch, the crossbowmen fire. He is impaled by a pair of bolts, the third soldier then ganks him. Very hard for him to counter since his magic takes time to do.

Szeth has already shown us exactly how effective any kind of projectile is against him, surprised or not (0) Obviously if you ambushed him while he was sleeping or something this might work but Szeth is always going to be aware of all his enemies in a combat situation since he wears no armour he can't afford to forget about the spearman behind him (Or in this case the crossbowmen) his Lashings literally take the blink of an eye to perform, he uses it mid-combat all the time.

The target will presumably have people to protect him from Szeth flying at him, may have their own shardplate. If he flies away you can double the guard and prepare better. You understand his powers better and can be better prepared.

The flying away thing was more about avoiding one wave of projectiles than necessarily fleeing the scene I think.

[Nepene]

I think we discussed fire a while back and decided there just wasn't any practical way to weaponise it against a windrunner.

Szeth has already shown us exactly how effective any kind of projectile is against him, surprised or not (0) Obviously if you ambushed him while he was sleeping or something this might work but Szeth is always going to be aware of all his enemies in a combat situation since he wears no armour he can't afford to forget about the spearman behind him (Or in this case the crossbowmen) his Lashings literally take the blink of an eye to perform, he uses it mid-combat all the time.

The flying away thing was more about avoiding one wave of projectiles than necessarily fleeing the scene I think.

Yeah, you'd face the same issue that they faced in real life, the short range. Plus they might be able to lash the liquid or gas or solid you were burning up.

The spearmen threw, and Szeth stood still, hand on the doorframe. A Reverse Lashing required his constant touch, but took comparatively little Stormlight. During one, anything that approached him—particularly lighter objects—was instead pulled toward the Lashing itself.

A reverse lashing requires you to constantly touch an object. This anchors you in one place, reducing your agility, and removes one hand from the fight. While you are reverse lashing you are vulnerable to melee attacks and are no longer agile. If he used a shield, a few crossbow bolts in that shield would sharply increase its weight and reduce his agility.

Szeth is very perceptive, but he's shown no godlike ability to be aware of all things at once. Surgebinding doesn't increase perception.

Another group came at Szeth from the side, and he drew Stormlight into his hand and flung it in a Full Lashing across the floor at their feet. This was the Lashing that bonded objects; when the men crossed it, their shoes stuck to the floor. They tripped, and found their hands and bodies Lashed to the floor as well. Szeth stepped through them mournfully, striking.

Because he is not perfect against large groups he used lots of magic to slow them down and weaken them. He would be hard pressed to reverse lash something and slash through a warrior simultaneously.

Suppose a group of ten warriors charges at him. He full lashes them to the ground and begins making pate of them. If he's dicing them up with his shard blade it'd be quite hard for him to reverse lash anything so ranged troops fill him with a couple of bolts. Using his supernatural agility he grabs a man and reverse lashes him, absorbing all the firepower. Meanwhile, one of the remaining soldiers stabs him with a sword.

One problem with ranged weapons is the Reverse Lashing. Szeth can just Lash the ground or carry a Lashed shield and take care of most projectiles, unless he allows himself to be completely surrounded. Surprise would obviously be ideal, but we can't count on it.

He doesn't carry a shield as we have seen, and if he choses to reverse lash a door or something then melee attackers can stab him.

To kill who he's ordered to kill, yes, but not to try at the earliest possible opportunity if that opportunity is sure to result in death. A king can certainly have more guards, but he's got to go inside and not be in the middle of a ring-o-death at some point, as it would be cost-prohibitive, detrimental to his position, and mildly insane to maintain that ring-o-death permanently.

Besides, perhaps a Shardbearer could defeat him, kill him and end his miserable life.

Running would be a very out of character move, he loves overwhelming odds as he is suicidal. He wants someone to put him out of his misery. He can always hope he will be fast and deadly enough to kill everyone.

Also, the delusional king had thousands of men dancing to his paranoia, didn't he? My plans would only require two hundred or so (20 archers, melee warriors, and messengers, eight hour shifts.) Much less paranoid than a bad king. It'd probably cost less to keep up than a single shardplate.

I agree he has to go inside, hence the messengers to warn of an attack.

Yeah, he can obviously have his own set of guards, but Szeth never being able to get close was kind of the point of your scenario, so everything else is just immediately wasted when Szeth Superman's in.

Szeth dead is the point of my scenario. The hope is that before the king runs out of men Szeth will die. Szeth has never just superman'd to an enemy, he kills everyone in his way first.

Edited September 28, 2012 by Nepene

[Voidus]

A reverse lashing requires you to constantly touch an object. This anchors you in one place,

If the anchor you are using is the earth you still have quite a bit of mobility, or use a portable anchor, a rock, a shield, whatever's handy.

While you are reverse lashing you are vulnerable to melee attacks and are no longer agile.

You wouldn't be in a melee if you're reverse lashing, you're being attacked at range, shooting your own troops is not going to help you defeat a Windrunner

Szeth is very perceptive, but he's shown no godlike ability to be aware of all things at once. Surgebinding doesn't increase perception.

Kaladin. It must increase your reflexes, even if it's just subtly. I was more referring to Szeths natural abilities though. Considering how many massacres he's survived against superior forces, he must have excellent battle-awareness. I doubt he'd just forget about your crossbowman while he fights the melee combatants, he'd likely try to take them out first but failing that be aware of when they are aiming at him and about to fire.

He full lashes them to the ground and begins making pate of them. If he's dicing them up with his shard blade it'd be quite hard for him to reverse lash anything so ranged troops fill him with a couple of bolts

They're already taken care of, he wouldn't bother killing them until after he dealt with the ranged troops, but he'd likely take out the ranged first anyway.

He doesn't carry a shield as we have seen, and if he choses to reverse lash a door or something then melee attackers can stab him.

If he's being shot at then I doubt anyone else is going to be in melee range, but if they are he'd probably just use the reverse lashing on them to pincushion them with their own bolts.

Running would be a very out of character move, he loves overwhelming odds as he is suicidal. He wants someone to put him out of his misery. He can always hope he will be fast and deadly enough to kill everyone.

But he can't be deliberately suicidal, if he sees a way to kill his target in a manner less likely to result in his death he'll go for it.

Szeth dead is the point of my scenario. The hope is that before the king runs out of men Szeth will die. Szeth has never just superman'd to an enemy, he kills everyone in his way first.

If he has a choice he always tries to kill as few people as possible, yet another reason that he'd wait til the king is alone then ninja in and assassinate him instead of having to kill dozens of soldiers.

[Millennium]

Chuck a beehive at them. Seriously. None of those things is going to do much good against a swarm of angry bees.

Our unfortunate Windrunner would quickly find that Basic and Full Lashings are useless against so many targets: there just isn't time to get to them all. Bees can fly, so while a Reverse Lashing may confuse them for a moment (the new "down" and all that), they'll adapt and come right back. Either way, you jab a spear into the cloud of angry bees and you're done.

Our unfortunate Shardbearer doesn't fare much better. The wind generated by his Shardblade will push many of the bees out of the way before it can hit them, and even those that he kills will only amount to a couple out of hundreds, perhaps thousands. There's no way to get them all. Jab a spear into the cloud of angry bees and you're done.

What about our unfortunate Shardplate-user? Is he safe? Not so fast, because Shardplate isn't impermeable: Kaladin taught us that. Smack him in the face, and some of those bees will get into the armor, where they can't be crushed because the armor is rigid, and bees have ways of telling one another where to go. All you have to do is wait for the Shardplate to stop moving, or else for the user to get out of the armor; in this latter case, jab a spear into the cloud of angry bees and you're done.

Here's hoping that Szeth-son-son-Vallano, Truthless of Shinovar, isn't allergic to bees.

[Voidus]

Chuck a beehive at them. Seriously. None of those things is going to do much good against a swarm of angry bees.

I love it! Only thing is, do bees exist on Roshar? A beehive doesn't seem likely to survive highstorms, maybe in Shinovar I guess.

[Nepene]

If the anchor you are using is the earth you still have quite a bit of mobility, or use a portable anchor, a rock, a shield, whatever's handy.[

You wouldn't be in a melee if you're reverse lashing, you're being attacked at range, shooting your own troops is not going to help you defeat a Windrunner

I think this is where the misinterpretation comes from. I am saying you should be more calous. Deliberately fire ranged weapons at him while your melee fighters are engaging him. You may hit your own troops, but if Szech dies the king lives. He should be in a melee and at range and have his defences saturated with attacks.

If he's being shot at then I doubt anyone else is going to be in melee range, but if they are he'd probably just use the reverse lashing on them to pincushion them with their own bolts.

If he wants to do that he's welcome to, but if he slips up once. Indeed, I suggested he should reverse lash someone. Although if enemies are ranged attacking him from enough directions it won't matter.

( )

\ /

) (

##---------> Sazed- Reverse lashed enemy <----------##

) (

/ \

( )

Sad, the forum dislikes my ascii art. You can see it if you quote the text anyway.

If he reverse lashes someone that will just make the arrow fly into his heart faster if his foe is behind him.

But he can't be deliberately suicidal, if he sees a way to kill his target in a manner less likely to result in his death he'll go for it.

I doubt a bunch of archers will seem more suicidal than attacking three men with shardblades.

If he has a choice he always tries to kill as few people as possible, yet another reason that he'd wait til the king is alone then ninja in and assassinate him instead of having to kill dozens of soldiers.

So by logic, if the men never leave him Szech can never attack.

I wonder if you could use women and children to attack him. His code of honor may forbid killing them.

Edit. Beehives. While there is some history of their use in battle, it's relatively easy for these magical beings to avoid them- a windrunner could reverse lash something and then fly away, a shard blade user would be vulnerable to it, but it would be hard to accurately hit the visor of a shard plate user.You may well hurt your troops more than you'd hurt the enemy. Now you don't just have a towering armored killing machine, you have a towering armored killing machine covered in bees.

Edited September 28, 2012 by Nepene

[dj26792]

His personal code does but his masters orders supersede that, also he can very easily and in fact at one point does sneak into a house by flying in and floating away a piece of the roof, he can do that to the kings bed chamber and have a successful kill before the alarm is raised. To stop Szeth assassinating someone is impossible, he can kill anyone he likes as long as he is willing to die himself, which he is.

Stopping him from getting out alive is more plausible but still hard.

[Voidus]

His masters can't make him take suicidal action, they can order him into danger but unless they specifically asked him to kill all the troops too, I would say he'd just sneak in.

I think this is where the misinterpretation comes from. I am saying you should be more calous. Deliberately fire ranged weapons at him while your melee fighters are engaging him.

Good luck finding people to volunteer for that job detail

If he wants to do that he's welcome to, but if he slips up once. Indeed, I suggested he should reverse lash someone. Although if enemies are ranged attacking him from enough directions it won't matter.

One on each side would work, or as I mentioned using the ground,a shield, a small rock he finds on the ground...

I doubt a bunch of archers will seem more suicidal than attacking three men with shardblades.

He didn't know about them when he planned his attack and he was already committed.

[Nepene]

His masters can't make him take suicidal action, they can order him into danger but unless they specifically asked him to kill all the troops too, I would say he'd just sneak in.

His master asks him to make it public often enough, and if he sneaks in my 20 early warning scouts will show their utility.

Good luck finding people to volunteer for that job detail

Shouldn't be that hard, the soldiers seem fairly happy to die for their lord. They can have shields and metal armor if they wish to protect them.

One on each side would work, or as I mentioned using the ground,a shield, a small rock he finds on the ground...

He didn't know about them when he planned his attack and he was already committed.

If he has one reverse lashing on each side, how is he going to defend against the melee troops? He has to be touching the lashing to do it. That means no sword fighting. Can you even reverse leash two objects at once?

And I question if he can lash the ground- you need to form a bubble around the object and the earth is rather large to form a bubble around. Under my plan, he is welcome to lash rocks or shields, he'd still die to swords.

He wouldn't necessarily know about my 60 soldiers, I'd try to keep it as quiet as possible. If he skulked around asking questions he'd be easy enough to kill with overwhelming numbers.

Edited September 28, 2012 by Nepene

[king of nowhere]

I like the beehive thing, even if it is way too impractical to work except as one time situation.

First of all, I doubt bees exist outside of shinovar: bees feed on flowers, and I saw no evidence of flowers anywere, and I don't remember honey ever being mentioned. Let's assume you can keep a shin garden in a room indoor, it would still be very expensive.

Second, you'd need to carry the beehive without the bees getting angry at you. Not sure if it is possible.

Third, the beehive is not well suited for launching, so tghe chances of getting it right are low.

Then, a windrunner could easily dodge it. if you can hit him with a beehive you can hit him with an arrow, and if you can do so, you need no beehive in the first place. But even if you managed it, the windrunner could run away. Humans run faster than bees fly, and bees would not keep following forever. With the windrunner gone, the bees would turn against your troops.

A bearer of the shard would have to run with his legs, it would probably be succesful.

A bearer of the plate could cover the eye slit with one hand.

So, all in all, it would not work.

I think the only hing that could kill szeth would be a surprise arrow, simply because there's no way to hit him if he's prepared. he can pull arrows with a reverse leashing, but, as far as I understood, he needs to be aware of that to pull them. he can't use the pulling all the time because it would be too expensive in stormlight. And would be ineffective against arrows striking from the wrong direction.

getting him in melee is otherwise hopeless: with his super speed he can dodge any attack easily, and only a few men can attack him in melee at a given time. plus, he could escape at any time if he risks running out of stormlight or getting swarmed too much.

So the only way I see to kill a powerful windrunner is a stray arrow from the shadows and hope he don't notice it.

With all the confusion of the battle, I figure putting a few hidden archers that would strike when the windrunner turns his back wouldn't be impossible.

EDIT: if he lashes two shileds on both sides, an arrow coming from the front or back would be pulled equally by the two lashings, that would effectively cnacel each other. Plus, it would drain light very quickly. Plus, he'd have trouble in melee.

Edited September 28, 2012 by king of nowhere

[Voidus]

His master asks him to make it public often enough, and if he sneaks in my 20 early warning scouts will show their utility.

If scouts spot him he isn't exactly sneaking

Shouldn't be that hard, the soldiers seem fairly happy to die for their lord. They can have shields and metal armor if they wish to protect them.

Dying in battle is not the same as virtual suicide for use as decoys. This is even worse than Bridgemen so I don't think many will volunteer.

If he has one reverse lashing on each side, how is he going to defend against the melee troops? He has to be touching the lashing to do it. That means no sword fighting. Can you even reverse leash two objects at once?

Theres no real reason he couldn't do two at once, or he could just hold two people on either side and reverse lash something in the middle of both of the. As for dealing with melee combat, he's already shown his ability to take on Shardbearers without using his Blade, I doubt that some ordinary soldiers are going to cope with it any better.

He wouldn't necessarily know about my 60 soldiers, I'd try to keep it as quiet as possible. If he skulked around asking questions he'd be easy enough to kill with overwhelming numbers.

Hiring 60 men is difficult to keep quiet, as is keeping them a secret once you've hired them, 60 men take a lot of looking after and the more you try to hide them the less quickly they can actually respond to the threat.

[Nepene]

If scouts spot him he isn't exactly sneaking

It's hard to sneak when twenty eyes are seeking you out.

Dying in battle is not the same as virtual suicide for use as decoys. This is even worse than Bridgemen so I don't think many will volunteer.

This is not worse than bridgemen. You would be paid extremely well, and have hope that you could kill him before he killed any of you. If the archers were fairly skilled casulties among your troops should be minimal. Besides, you could just use slings which will only break bones or cause concussions if they miss, with a couple crossbow troops for him in the open.

Theres no real reason he couldn't do two at once, or he could just hold two people on either side and reverse lash something in the middle of both of the. As for dealing with melee combat, he's already shown his ability to take on Shardbearers without using his Blade, I doubt that some ordinary soldiers are going to cope with it any better.

If he's holding two people at once and lashing something else he is going to be very vulnerable to attack by soldiers with swords and shardsword bearers and won't be nearly as agile. He used his agility to take out the shardbearers, along with lots of binding. You can spin up whatever scenario you wish, but the fact remains, the more he defends against ranged the more vulnerable he is to melee attacks. Combined assaults will make it very hard for him to do enough.

Let's say he does that. He grabs two soldiers and reverse lashes them to block arrows. He survives, though several arrows go through and stab into him, injuring him (as happened with the shield in the battle scene). Meanwhile a shardblade wielder comes at him and swings his sword through the body to kill him as a second set of arrows come at him. What can he do against that many enemies?

Hiring 60 men is difficult to keep quiet, as is keeping them a secret once you've hired them, 60 men take a lot of looking after and the more you try to hide them the less quickly they can actually respond to the threat.

If Szeth asks about the arrangements of the enemy he is vulnerable to being caught. His masters often do not give him enough information.

Plus, if he just assumes these men are more enemies to cut down he's not going to be that afraid. He'll bring oodles of stormlight to kill them all, but he'll still be surprised by the attack formation. He may be able to gleam some details (not all) but he won't be able to pick up all the surprises.

[Voidus]

It's hard to sneak when twenty eyes are seeking you out.

Not when you can fly

This is not worse than bridgemen. You would be paid extremely well, and have hope that you could kill him before he killed any of you. If the archers were fairly skilled casulties among your troops should be minimal. Besides, you could just use slings which will only break bones or cause concussions if they miss, with a couple crossbow troops for him in the open.

No one who's aware of his abilities would believe they could kill him in melee, regardless even if Szeth doesn't kill you you're still going to be shot by your own troops, bad deal. Slings would lessen the damage to Szeth as well and he has the benefit of being able to heal with stormlight.

If he's holding two people at once and lashing something else he is going to be very vulnerable to attack by soldiers with swords and shardsword bearers and won't be nearly as agile.

He needs to be holding them for about 2 seconds while people are shooting him, then he drops them and gets two more for the next wave. You also wouldn't be putting a Shardbearer in the middle of this, wasting ordinary soldiers is one thing but no Sharbearer is going to accept suicide for a little extra cash. On top of all this anyone close enough to stab him is going to be close enough to also get pincusioned by the arrows unless they are very close to him (You'd literally have to be nose to nose)

Let's say he does that. He grabs two soldiers and reverse lashes them to block arrows. He survives, though several arrows go through and stab into him, injuring him (as happened with the shield in the battle scene)

The shield was hit by thousands of arrows, not 20-odd and a person is thicker than a shield anyway.

Meanwhile a shardblade wielder comes at him and swings his sword through the body to kill him as a second set of arrows come at him. What can he do against that many enemies?

Lash himself upwards like he usually does to avoid blows then watch the archers slaughter one of their most valuable allies, lash downwards, summon shardblade and decimate the rest of the archers. Or lash one of his current shields multiple times in the direction of the Shardbearer turning him into a projectile.

If Szeth asks about the arrangements of the enemy he is vulnerable to being caught. His masters often do not give him enough information.

Being caught how exactly? If they try to catch him then his cover is blown so he wont hold back, he'd just kill everyone in the vicinity then proceed anyway.

Plus, if he just assumes these men are more enemies to cut down he's not going to be that afraid. He'll bring oodles of stormlight to kill them all, but he'll still be surprised by the attack formation. He may be able to gleam some details (not all) but he won't be able to pick up all the surprises.

He doesn't need to, unless he's been specifically ordered to kill them he doesn't like murdering innocents even if he knows he could.

[dj26792]

The problem with this is that Szeth is very capable of cutting through your swordsmen while your archers are running into surprise him and then your screwed he will also be in the middle of a crowd which means most of your shots will miss and every miss will hit one of your soldiers which will prove fatal to them, if the projectile doesnt kill them, Szeth will use the distraction

[Nepene]

Not when you can fly

People who can fly, while hard to see, are not invisible.

No one who's aware of his abilities would believe they could kill him in melee, regardless even if Szeth doesn't kill you you're still going to be shot by your own troops, bad deal. Slings would lessen the damage to Szeth as well and he has the benefit of being able to heal with stormlight.

People don't know much about his abilities, so while yes they will die, the king doesn't have to say it like that. If he's reasonably charismatic he can use careful messaging.

Friendly fire, while annoying, is a reality of war that soldiers are used to. Given the 100% casulty rate of swordsmen who charge up against Szech even if I knew everything I'd still prefer risking the friendly fire. Some brave men could likely be found.

A crossbow would be better, but if enough brave men cannot be found to die as cannon fodder for their king the sling would work too.

Slings are deadly if you hit an enemy in the head, and are very capable of shattering bones. The stones also often break up, leaving fragments of themselves in the body. It would take Szeth a lot of stormlight and a lot of time to heal any injuries. In the meanwhile, other slingers would be hitting him and swordsmen and spearmen would be stabbing him.

I know that quicklime was historically used as a sling weapon. You could throw it and it would produce a corrosive cloud of blinding mist. That might work well.

He needs to be holding them for about 2 seconds while people are shooting him, then he drops them and gets two more for the next wave. You also wouldn't be putting a Shardbearer in the middle of this, wasting ordinary soldiers is one thing but no Sharbearer is going to accept suicide for a little extra cash. On top of all this anyone close enough to stab him is going to be close enough to also get pincusioned by the arrows unless they are very close to him (You'd literally have to be nose to nose)

Two seconds is a lifetime in a battle. Time enough for someone to stab him.

This shardbearer I presume would be wearing shardarmor, so the ranged fire would be nothing more than annoying plinks on their armor. It would be rather more deadly to Szeth.

If you're really concerned about the lives of your men for some reason and care if they get pincushioned while the assassin dies, you could have them wielding long spears. That would give them enough range to annoy and stab Szeth while giving archers some freedom to fire at him.

The shield was hit by thousands of arrows, not 20-odd and a person is thicker than a shield anyway.

Some of the arrows had gone through and hit his forearm. That was the pain.

Over a hundred arrows. An entire volley. Pulled into a single shield.

The shield was hit by over a hundred arrows and while a person is thicker than a shield, a person isn't as tough as a shield, also crossbow bolts are armor piercing especially at almost point blank range. Some arrows would likely go through.

Lash himself upwards like he usually does to avoid blows then watch the archers slaughter one of their most valuable allies, lash downwards, summon shardblade and decimate the rest of the archers. Or lash one of his current shields multiple times in the direction of the Shardbearer turning him into a projectile.

The soldiers are not especially valuable, there's thousands of them around, if three or so men are lost no one will cry except their families. Maybe their families can get sent a medal for their men dying for their country.

If he lashes himself to the ceiling he can't reverse lash anything since he is away from the floor where all the stuff is. The second volley of archers can fire and kill him. If he avoids and goes down to slaughter the archers around the room people have many more chances to kill him. The archers aren't clustered into a group as they want to hit him from multiple angles, so he has to go all the way around the room killing them. He has to fight perfect continuously, they just have to get lucky once. And all this time more soldiers can be called in and more chances to get lucky can be made.

Assuming the shardbearer has shardarmor, the shield would bounce off. He had to lash a massive stone to kill the shard armor guy. They are insanely tough.

Being caught how exactly? If they try to catch him then his cover is blown so he wont hold back, he'd just kill everyone in the vicinity then proceed anyway.

If he tries that in a large group of soldiers (who would know what the soldiers were doing) he's going to face hundreds of enemies, more than he can deal with likely.

He doesn't need to, unless he's been specifically ordered to kill them he doesn't like murdering innocents even if he knows he could.

If all those men are defending their king 24/7 then there's not much he can do but try to kill them all. Under my plan, he isn't especially given an option other than to murder lots of innocents.

The problem with this is that Szeth is very capable of cutting through your swordsmen while your archers are running into surprise him and then your screwed he will also be in the middle of a crowd which means most of your shots will miss and every miss will hit one of your soldiers which will prove fatal to them, if the projectile doesnt kill them, Szeth will use the distraction

Indeed, if they did that he would likely kill them.

I am assuming that these archers do not have mook chivalry. They are waiting with the king 24/7 along with the sword/ pikers and so they shall attack him while he is cutting through the swordsmen, not after. I am also assuming they are fairly accurate so they will not miss much.

Also, he will not be in the middle of a crowd. He tends to attack a large group front on and either lash them to the ceiling or destroy them with his shardblade, so he will be at the front of a group of vanishing corpses. There will be lots of space for enemies to attack him if they so chose.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Nepene

[Kurkistan]

I know that quicklime was historically used as a sling weapon. You could throw it and it would produce a corrosive cloud of blinding mist. That might work well.

Okay, thank you for that much-less-situational and expensive addition to the conversation. Quicklime. Good idea.

I can see (very carefully handled and stored) quicklime grenades being useful against Windrunners, if not even regular combat troops. Obscure the Windrunner's ability to breathe (though they don't do that much) and see, and you've definitely cut down on their responsiveness and agility. And a reverse lashing probably won't do that much against what amounts to a cloud.

You have just given us a highly practical solution to dealing with Windrunners on the battlefield, though it's still not as easy, ranged, or simply as using crossbows on Shardbearers in general, sadly.

The problem is Alethi access/knowledge about quicklime or other such chemicals, as well as that pesky "honor" thing that has stopped the use of quicklime in the past.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Kurkistan

[Voidus]

And a reverse lashing probably won't do that much against what amounts to a cloud.

Well a reverse lashing has a stronger gravitational pull than the earth does so it should reduce the size of the cloud and Kaladins uber-pull in the fight for the tower would definitely condense it enough to see I think.

I think that the best tactics to use against Windrunners pretty much all involve magic of their own, either Shardbearers (In the open instead of indoors they may be more effective) other windrunners obviously or Soulcasters (Obscure their view with smoke, insta-kill them with a transformation or trap them in a soulcasted cage.) barring that pretty much any solution is going to be defeatable, some of them would work sometimes, but mostly you need to surprise them.

[Kurkistan]

Well a reverse lashing has a stronger gravitational pull than the earth does so it should reduce the size of the cloud and Kaladins uber-pull in the fight for the tower would definitely condense it enough to see I think.

I think that the best tactics to use against Windrunners pretty much all involve magic of their own, either Shardbearers (In the open instead of indoors they may be more effective) other windrunners obviously or Soulcasters (Obscure their view with smoke, insta-kill them with a transformation or trap them in a soulcasted cage.) barring that pretty much any solution is going to be defeatable, some of them would work sometimes, but mostly you need to surprise them.

Yeah, magic is obviously ideal, but we laugh at such wastefulness!

I had the impression that the Reverse Lashing's strength was somehow a function of the speed of the object being pulled, but I don't see any evidence for that after a quick check of the book. It's described as just "anything that approaches," and we saw Kaladin pull arrows from halfway across the world with a Reverse LAshing. So that does hurt quicklime a bit.

There's still hope, though. We know that air isn't pulled in by Reverse Lashings, and that the Reverse Lashing won't help if you manage to get anything resembling an encirclement, so a well-thrown quicklime grenade or two that "poofs" such as to distribute the chemical all around a Windrunner could still do the trick, or even just a relatively stationary cloud of quicklime, if it won't be affected because it's relatively stationary and not really "approaching" the Windrunner.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Kurkistan

[Voidus]

Of course they can always just basic lash themselves out of the cloud. I increasingly think that Windrunners are all but invincible. Combine this with Shardplate and I can't even think how you could possibly defeat that.

Do we have confirmation that Reverse lashings don't affect stationary objects? I know they don't affect things on the ground but I wasn't aware of other restrictions.

[Nepene]

Of course they can always just basic lash themselves out of the cloud. I increasingly think that Windrunners are all but invincible. Combine this with Shardplate and I can't even think how you could possibly defeat that.

Do we have confirmation that Reverse lashings don't affect stationary objects? I know they don't affect things on the ground but I wasn't aware of other restrictions.

At its heart, this Lashing created a bubble around the object that imitated its spiritual link to the ground beneath it. As such, it was much harder for the Lashing to affect objects touching the ground, where their link to the planet was strongest. Objects falling or in flight were the easiest to influence. Other objects could be affected, but the Stormlight and skill required were much more substantial.

Objects falling or in flight.

Okay' date=' thank you for that much-less-situational and expensive addition to the conversation. Quicklime. Good idea.[/quote']

Combined arms is not situational and is still necessary. It has a very long history as an effective way to defeat enemies. Ranged troops kill and demoralize enemies while melee troops close in for the mop up. Szeth is very powerful so there is no simple counter to him. It's necessary to attack him on multiple fronts.

I can see (very carefully handled and stored) quicklime grenades being useful against Windrunners, if not even regular combat troops. Obscure the Windrunner's ability to breathe (though they don't do that much) and see, and you've definitely cut down on their responsiveness and agility. And a reverse lashing probably won't do that much against what amounts to a cloud.

He can fly out. But he'll be blinded and his skin will be burning and it'll be rather hard to fight. Depends on how fast he escapes. Reverse lashing may or may not work.

You have just given us a highly practical solution to dealing with Windrunners on the battlefield, though it's still not as easy, ranged, or simply as using crossbows on Shardbearers in general, sadly.

The problem is Alethi access/knowledge about quicklime or other such chemicals, as well as that pesky "honor" thing that has stopped the use of quicklime in the past.

Quicklime has been made since Egyptian times. It's very common and easy to produce. You just burn limestone. We known shelled organisms are common, and shells are what produces limestone so it should be easy to get.

[dj26792]

When I said that the archers would take time to show up I meant it takes them time to get around behind Szeth, they dont have it I honestly think the only way to stop Szeth is financially impossible numbers of halfshard tower shields for all your guards and charge him pin him and go to town with shortswords Ronan style and I reckon thats only about a 40% chance of working