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How to defend against shard plate, shard blades, wind runners, ect.


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I was sure that the visor could be closed? Ah, but it must leave eyeslits, doesn't it.

I don't think they need eyeslits. When closing the visor, doesn't it fade out of view for the wearer so they are full encased, but still able to see?

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I believe that Dalinar said something to the effect that while this is useful for the sides of the helmets, meaning that your vision isn't completely obstructed outside of the eyeslits, you still need the slits because its like seeing the world through misted glass. You can see when things are in the corners of your vision, but not what they are. It just gives the Shardbearer more time to react.

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@Odium's_Shard

Yeah, my bad there. Roshar. Also, it is true that there is a completely open eyeslit. Recall how Kaladin killed the Shardbearer attacking Amaram.

Edited by Kurkistan
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But also recall how difficult it was for him. Much easier to throw them into the ocean with rocks tied to their limbs, if that's even necessary with that much armor weighing them down.

Or, more cynically, if you could even get a grip on them to throw that much weight anywhere.

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But lets be honest, the best weapon against Shardbearers is, well... Shards. I believe there are two popular sayings along these lines.

Face fire with fire.

If at first you don't succeed, cry, cry and cry again.

Both popular, historically literary examples.

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But lets be honest, the best weapon against Shardbearers is, well... Shards. I believe there are two popular sayings along these lines.

Face fire with fire.

If at first you don't succeed, cry, cry and cry again.

Both popular, historically literary examples.

While I am always tempted to bow to the wisdom of the ancients, I must reiterate that I believe any crossbow/ballista style weapon would be highly effective against Shardbearers.

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You think that such a high amount of ballistic pressure could crack Shardplate, even though it might take many strong men with hammers about five minutes to do any noticeable damage whatsoever?

Five minutes? The only reference I can find right now has a Parshendi using a hammer to cause "a few tiny weblike lines" with a single hit. While that isn't impressive in and of itself, I imagine that a dozen of them with a few seconds of uninterrupted work could cause something a bit more painful.

Crossbows deal a lot of force to a small area, as well. While a hammer might diffuse its force over a few square inches, a bolt would put all of its force into less than one square inch, maximizing its effectiveness. The power behind such a bolt is also greater than what a strong man with a hammer can generate in the first place (I'm fairly sure, although the internet has betrayed me and left me without definite proof), so crossbows have both more power and deliver it into a smaller area for a greater effect.

Consider grandbows (AKA Shardbows). Unless they were designed specifically to hunt chasmfiends, they are most likely meant to be used against men in Shardplate. So "ballistic pressure" has some efficacy, while the force generated by a grandbow could be mimicked by a sufficiently strong crossbow (or crossbows) or ballistae.

Edited by Kurkistan
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Somehow I doubt that any crossbow could stand up to the Shardbow, but may mimick enough force to crack the plate. Also, one might be able to put research into 'half-Shards' of Veden (?), using the power of fabrials to create incredible power from a weak man.

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Somehow I doubt that any crossbow could stand up to the Shardbow, but may mimick enough force to crack the plate. Also, one might be able to put research into 'half-Shards' of Veden (?), using the power of fabrials to create incredible power from a weak man.

It's really not a question of "mimicking" forces. Crossbows deliver a very large amount of energy, more so than a swing of a warhammer. Ballistae are siege weapons. That armor will crack. It's simply a question of getting a dozen or so of the things pointed in the right direction and pulling the trigger, to the point where the cracks add up to shattering adds up to no more Shardbearer.

As to the "half-Shards" point: from what I understand of what you're saying, you're proposing essentially a grandbow that can be used by an ordinary man. If that's the case, the power of that bow could be easily mimicked with any kind of crank mechanism to store incremental amounts of energy.

EDIT: I just noticed that the forum shortens your name down to just "Odium" when I quote you. So this is your gambit, eh, Shard of Hatred? Trying to distract the forces of Honor by casting doubt on our weapons development?

EDIT 2:

On the point that I have so far failed to find actual evidence to support my belief that crossbows deliver more energy than warhammers: Even if, historically, Earth crossbows were less powerful than warhammers, Rosharian(?) crossbows could simply be designed with a greater power output.

The only limit is how long it takes to pull back the string and how strong the material of the crossbow is. Throw in some insta-soulcast metal and the ability to strengthen bows with gemstones, and you have solved the problem of material-strength. This makes it eminently feasible to produce high-energy crossbows for use against Shardbearers, with a slightly longer reload time than their Earth counterparts, at very worst.

Edited by Kurkistan
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I understand what you're saying, but about the half-Shards, I was inferring that what is used to fabrial-strengthen them could be used in, say, a cheaper (than Shardplate) gauntlet that has enough power to draw back a slightly enhanced cross/bow that could, for example, set arrows on fire as they passed, or strengthen the heads.

Alternatively you could just foresee every eventuality, ignore the advice that we have spent our time developing within this thread, and simply Soulcast that poor bugger of a Shardbearer into a tree. End of.

And nobody is supposed to know about my double identity as both Rayse and the Shard of Hatred, whereupon when anything that the latter says, the former is instantly called upon to back the other up, in order to provide evidence against the subject from with the opposing post itself... but you can just call me Jim (not my real name for protection against the forces of Light within the Cosmere).

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Fun fact about archery: You mostly use the muscles in your back for the pull. Crossbows are either cranked or rely on your legs. So a bit more than a gauntlet would be necessary. :)

Also: You can't get much paste past me, Odium. *Taps side of nose knowingly*

Edited by Kurkistan
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honestly, i wouldn't put it past the alethi to suppress crossbows and ballista intentionally. they're very short-sighted and love to play with their toys. giving any common dark-eyes the ability to crack their shardplate with a few well placed crossbow bolts would be highly repellent to them. I do believe the greatbows were developed specifically to hunt chasm-fiends. we don't see them during plateau assaults do we? despite the alethi being well aware that the parshendi possess shards.

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honestly, i wouldn't put it past the alethi to suppress crossbows and ballista intentionally. they're very short-sighted and love to play with their toys. giving any common dark-eyes the ability to crack their shardplate with a few well placed crossbow bolts would be highly repellent to them. I do believe the greatbows were developed specifically to hunt chasm-fiends. we don't see them during plateau assaults do we? despite the alethi being well aware that the parshendi possess shards.

I don't think that suppression would cause a lack of crossbows.

Remember that the Alethkar and Jah Kaved have the vast majority of Blades/Plate, so basically every other country would have an incentive to develop a means to counter them. This applies equally well on the micro-scale: any Highprince or other noble facing an imbalance of shards would have an incentive to develop a counter-measure.

Crossbows are also useful in and of themselves, both as a low-skill replacement to bows and as anti-armor weaponry, not to mention the benefits of artillery and siege weaponry in war (EDIT: As applies to ballistae, I mean).

As to greatbows, perhaps. We know that it's relatively rare to run into a Parshendi Shardbearer, and that, even without the Blade, someone in Plate is immensely effective on the frontlines. On the other hand, we know that Sadeas has broken off encounters with enemy Shardbearers several times; either he did not have the time to retreat and fetch a greatbow (or he didn't bring it to the battle, or the Parshendi Shardbearer retreated before he could get it), or greatbows are not, in fact, designed to counter Plate.

Edited by Kurkistan
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  • 1 month later...

I'm going to have to vote for massed crossbows and half shard shields as the best shard counter and half shard walls and tower shields as a szeth counter. If you have a 100 crossbows trained to fire in say 4m square spread pattern you are going to inflict significant damage to almost all the pieces of plate, if you then follow that up with more volleys or even a cavalry charge, eventually the shard bearer will take critical damage, in an army formation heavy infantry with a half shard tower shield could just swarm them and pin them up against their own lines then use halberds or similar to smash them from behind the lines.

szeth defence is easier, you just build your inner sanctum out of half shard walls, and then using custom shields that fill the corridors and large numbers of men pin him against a wall and go to town on him with what ever is handy.

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All that sorta depends upon an infinite supply of half-shard tech, which if I recall is a fairly recent development and probably somewhat cost-prohibitive to use just anywhere.

I could see crossbows being suppressed in Alethkar or Jah Kaved, but as mentioned I wouldn't be surprised to see them in other nations that don't have the shard superiority. Just remember, the problem with crossbows is that they take a bit of time to reload. If there's only a handful of guys with crossbows, they had better get in some VERY good shots with the first volley or that shard-bearer is going to get in amongst them, and then it gets splattery real quick.

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heavy crossbows would probably be the most cost effective counter against shardplates, as they could be built in stock and given to a significant portion of the army. much of that effectiveness, however, depends on how much damage they would actually do to a shard, and that is only speculative.

halfshards are probably too expensive to fit an army with, and against regular soldiers are no more useful than a normal shield - and heavier. but maybe a regiment of men trained just to fight shardbeares would make sense. elite soldiers armed with halfshards, heavy hammers and stiletto daggers and trained to coordinated fight against a shardbearer, they would be the roshan equivalent of hazekillers on scadrial. Advance under the shield, try to close range with the shardbearer so that he can't swing much his long sword, jump over him countering the shard-enhanced strenght with numers, and when the shardbearer is down try to block his sword and crak him with hammers or put the dagger in his eye. I suppose a dozen such men would be dangerous to a isolated shardbearer.

Ballistae would not be effective, I think. the problem is, they cannot be pointed like a crossbow. it is virtually impossible to hit a single running men. if said men is in the middle of your ranks, you'd just kill your own men. they would still be useful against the bulk of an army, tough.

against a surgebinder, it is much more difficult to defend. it all depends on how much stormlight he has, really. with enough stormlight, a surgebinder could just lash an object towards the enemy, at 10, 20 or 100 times the acceleration of gravity. szeth did a 20x once, and the result destroied a shardbearer. an item thrown that way would accumulate enough kinetic energy to have the power of an artillery shell. it would be able to breack any obstacle.

Maybe i'd go for soldiers armed with pikes (so it will be difficult to just jump on them with a lashing) to keep him at bay, and then pelt him with arrows until he run out of stormlight.

another option would be to just swarm him with regular soldiers, so that in melee he can't do much fancy manuevers and can rely "only" on strenght and speed.

A third chance may be trying to get a hidden archer to shoot him by surprise. I'm not sure if the surgebinder has to be conscious of an arrow to deflect it, but he at least must have that abbility (don't remember the name) activated, and since it drains stormlight all the time, he probably cannot afford to leave it on all the time just in case of a stray arrow.

I feel neither of those would be effective against szeth, but they could probably get a less skilled surgebinder.

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Hazekillers for Shardbearers? Sounds like a plan.

I think if a shardbearer were hit often enough by concentrated crossbow fire, it'd be enough to crack and potentially even disable shardplate, but a single bolt won't do it. Not even a handful, you'd need to be hit hard and in short order.

Maybe it would help soften 'em up, and if they don't have a shardblade you could overwhelm them with numbers and weight, but if you're one-to-one your best bet is to pull a Kaladin. And even he was lucky, fighting someone who was (if the rumours pan out) inexperienced and over-confident.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Yeah equipping everyone with half-Shards is somewhat cost prohibitive as they require an infused gemstone (presumably one of reasonably significant size) to work, they are actually more useful than ordinary shields even against ordinary weapons as they work by enhancing the durability of the metal, but still way too expensive to give to everyone.

I still think Crossbows are the way to go but there is a bit of the same problem, they are quite expensive to make and less practical to use against other opponents, I think that the best idea is to have er... Shardkillers? Stormslayers? equipped with alternating crossbows and pikes or possibly halfshards if you can afford them. But then if you can afford halfshards you can probably afford soulcasters which IMO is a much more effective way to deal with them.

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Yeah equipping everyone with half-Shards is somewhat cost prohibitive as they require an infused gemstone (presumably one of reasonably significant size) to work, they are actually more useful than ordinary shields even against ordinary weapons as they work by enhancing the durability of the metal, but still way too expensive to give to everyone.

I still think Crossbows are the way to go but there is a bit of the same problem, they are quite expensive to make and less practical to use against other opponents, I think that the best idea is to have er... Shardkillers? Stormslayers? equipped with alternating crossbows and pikes or possibly halfshards if you can afford them. But then if you can afford halfshards you can probably afford soulcasters which IMO is a much more effective way to deal with them.

A new thought on crossbow manufacture, actually: SOULCASTING IS AWESOME! I totally just now realized this. It's simply the most awesome thing ever, like 3D printing with magic, only better: "Please sir, I want some more crossbows?" "What?! Well, certainly! Why didn't you ask earlier! Just pour some sand into these molds and, voila, I've just soulcasted all of the intricate components as well as perfectly crafted stocks."

That'll be a few infused gemstones and then you can go have fun killing Shardbearers into the foreseeable future, without at any point risking a soulcaster or its wielder.

Edited by Kurkistan
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I didn't even think about that! I think that being able to soulcast that well would take some practise but even so, much faster and given that the Shattered plains are where most Soulcasters are these days they do have access to gemhearts with near limitless soulcasting potential.

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  • 1 month later...

I agree that against shard plates and shard blades crossbows and siege weapons are the most effective counter- we saw the effectiveness of some sort of heavy rock the parshendi used in the final battle and if they had deployed enough to kill a shardplate in a single volley they would have won. Soulcasting could be used to massively boost production of these weapons.

With regards to countering Sazed, the main issue with him is his extreme agility and gravity bending abilities. His biggest weakness is a lack of shardplate- with no shard plate he can't survive any major blows. There is an obvious counter which would allow you to much more effectively wound and kill him. Go outside. Have a good relay system to warn of his coming and when he attacks go outside where there is no ceiling or wall. Have an emergency escape option at all times which allows you to quickly flee in multiple directions to the outside. You could even have a panic room specially built to flee to which made it harder for him to use his abilities.

Have a group of crossbow or bow or sling troops close by the important target at all times and have them spread out to take potshots at Sazed. Sazed is fast, but if he is being attacked at range from multiple directions and having to fight shard holders or sword fighters he's likely to make errors. Every time he makes an error he'll become more vulnerable to more errors, before his healing kicks in.

Build trap walls. Put some sort of wallpaper on the walls and put broken glass shards behind that paper in the throne room. If he goes to the walls then he'll break through and slice up his legs.

Have men with bags of broken glass attack him. If he slashes at them momentum will carry the broken glass towards his body, if they have freedom to attack they can throw a lot of broken glass at him. Every injury will make fighting harder.

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