How to defend against shard plate, shard blades, wind runners, ect.

[Kurkistan]

Also, as an appendix, what is to stop Szeth from stealing Light from the gems located in Shardplate, thus rendering it useless before his Shardblade? What makes Shardplate different/special, because as we've heard from Dalinar's descriptions, there certainly is something inexplainable about some of its powers.

I assume that Shardplate is Invested, which is why Szeth can't use Lashings on Plate. The gems are embedded in the Shardplate, so they probably share its immunity, similar to metal objects being un-pushable when they are embedded in people.

EDIT: Or it could not be the "embedded" aspect. It could be that Shardplate just "gets in the way" of someone trying to steal a gem's stormlight, since I now recall that Szeth's Lashing's would "interfere" with them if he wore Plate himself.

EDIT 2: Or it could be that the person wearing Shardplate has privileged access to its gemstones, just as they have privileged access to its others functions.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Kurkistan

[ReaderAt2046]

According to the Prolouge, Szeth could only steal the Light form Gavilar's plate after unlatching the center piece. So presumably the intact Plate blocks inhalation.

[Kurkistan]

^Which is why I need to both re-read the book and think more about what I remember from it before getting all theory-laden on stuff.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Kurkistan

[hoser]

Well, I started this post before, but the first part just amplifies ReaderAt2046's point. Hopefully the second part brings something to the discussion.

Also, as an appendix, what is to stop Szeth from stealing Light from the gems located in Shardplate, thus rendering it useless before his Shardblade?

We know that he can't, from the prologue:

Szeth reached underneath the front of the man's breastplate, tapping the straps there. They unfastened, and he pulled the front of the breastplate free, exposing the gemstones on it's interior. ... Numb, Szeth breathed in sharply, absorbing the light."

I interpret this to mean that Szeth can't draw from the gems through the armor, but must get the armor out of the way/disassemble it to draw from the gems. The only question I see is "Why can't he?".

What makes Shardplate different/special, because as we've heard from Dalinar's descriptions, there certainly is something inexplainable about some of its powers.

I think I can help with this. Requoting from another thread:

I believe that Brandon does tell us some of how Shardplate works. In chapter 26, Dalinar is armoring up:

... Next, they set the sabatons - armor for his boots ... had a rough surface on the bottoms that seemed to cling to rock. The interiors glowed with the light of the sapphires in their indented pockets.

It seems uncoincidental (probably not a real word) that the windrunner ability "cling to rock" is paired with the windrunner gems (sapphires). This conceivably could support a connection between the Radiant abilities and the Shardplate ...

What I extrapolate from this is that one or more high level Radiants (or Honor, or Hephaestus) create the Shardplate and give it Radiant fabrial abilities.

The ability to cling to rock could be a gravity or pressure manipulation, as could the ease of movement and the extraordinary balance feature.

The self repairing could be related to the Regrowth ability or the Stormlight-infused healing.

The ability to resist a Shardblade could be a form of investiture.

The feeling through the armor could be action at a distance, like spanreeds.

I don't know what the disappearing helm trick in the Midnight Essence vision could be.

Anyway, carry on.

[Voidus]

The only problem with that is that when a windrunner uses their abilities to make something cling to a rock, it would not come unstuck except under extreme strength or when the stormlight runs out, also I think that if the Plate used abilities like that they would run through stormlight so quickly that they could only be used for an hour or so at a time.

[Odium's_Shard]

Upvoted, hoser! I like this! What you're saying is that a Shardplate acts sort of like a multi-faceted fabrial that controls all powers of the KR and all the Surges in different parts of the body in a accordance to my 'prismic Light' theory (which basically says gem determines power).

So:

The central piece: Regrowth, Sense (my name for the power we saw in the Shin merchant interlude in the heliodor fabrial).

The sabatons: Pressure, Gravity

The gauntlets: Soulcasting (that would be awesome but the Ardents wouldn't allow it)

The helm: Spanreed technology (related to rubies)?

As a side note: Do you think that a talented Soulcaster could give birth to Life, using the Essence of Sinew? Perhaps this is what Regrowth is? Advanced Soulcasting?

[Voidus]

As a side note: Do you think that a talented Soulcaster could give birth to Life, using the Essence of Sinew? Perhaps this is what Regrowth is? Advanced Soulcasting?

I don't think it's likely that that is all regrowth is but I definitely think that soulcasting could be used to similar effect. But you'd have to be exceptionally good at soulcasting organics and be a surgeon to be able to do so, but it would definitely work in a similar way.

[master]

I don't think it's likely that that is all regrowth is but I definitely think that soulcasting could be used to similar effect. But you'd have to be exceptionally good at soulcasting organics and be a surgeon to be able to do so, but it would definitely work in a similar way.

I guess it would depend on how soulcasting worked. could you combine two gems together, like garnets for blood and heliodor for the musles and organs. also how much do soulcasters control the process. do they just ask a spren to copy a certain pattern [not likely based on jasnahs version of strawberry jam]. it also doesnt seem likely that they control it to the finest detail, becuase creating the proteins in flesh would probably be impossible for a human mind to handle.

also, wouldnt you need a pattern to work with. say a carved arm to turn to flesh. but would that carving require bloodvessels or do they come with the flesh. you'd probably need to combine the heliodor with a garnet to have them come at the same time. also, would bone be considered a part of flesh, etc. etc.

I'd say that there is a low chance of all the laws governing soulcasting working to allow for advanced healing or creating new organisms. But ultimately its brandons dicision. so it really doesnt matter.

[hoser]

Upvoted, hoser!

Thanks.

I like this! What you're saying is that a Shardplate acts sort of like a multi-faceted fabrial that controls all powers of the KR and all the Surges in different parts of the body in a accordance to my 'prismic Light' theory (which basically says gem determines power).

So:

The central piece: Regrowth, Sense (my name for the power we saw in the Shin merchant interlude in the heliodor fabrial).

The sabatons: Pressure, Gravity

The gauntlets: Soulcasting (that would be awesome but the Ardents wouldn't allow it)

The helm: Spanreed technology (related to rubies)?

Well, you've followed the implications further than I had, frankly. So, upvote back at you! I couldn't find either "prismic" or "prismatic" anywhere else on the forums, so I'm working off your summary. I think there must be more to it, as the Regrowth ability seems to work from any piece. Maybe that is part of what Honor contributes (it is Shardplate after all) that the regrowth ability (and maybe others) applies to any part.

As a side note: Do you think that a talented Soulcaster could give birth to Life, using the Essence of Sinew? Perhaps this is what Regrowth is? Advanced Soulcasting?

Well, I'm of the opinion that Regrowth is a distinct surge or part of one (like the Lashings), and not a form of soulcasting. If a part, the surge could be life, health, growth or something like that.

It would be logical to have such a surge create life, and Shards can definitely create life, but I fear that Brandon doesn't want Radiants to be that powerful the Shard or Shards that enable the power didn't want to give away that much power. It would seem messy and not that useful to say that a Radiant could create something like a cremling, but not a full human. I guess Brandon could limit it by requiring unobtainably large gems and impossible amounts of stormlight.

But what if you started with a sperm? Could that be the truth behind the "Origins of the Makabaki" story? Interesting.

Another side note: What is Odium's Shard? I thought Odium was the Shard that Rayse was connected to. Silly things I wonder about while replacing single quotes with double to make your name come out right when quoted and wishing your name was "Shard of Odium".

Anyway, enough of my rambling for now, I look forward to your further thoughts.

[Odium's_Shard]

^ I apologise about 'prismatic'. I changed the term from its original usage within the original post, but the thread is called: Theory: Stormlight Vessels in Surgebinding.

It is quite relevant to this topic.

[Voidus]

also, wouldnt you need a pattern to work with. say a carved arm to turn to flesh. but would that carving require bloodvessels or do they come with the flesh. you'd probably need to combine the heliodor with a garnet to have them come at the same time. also, would bone be considered a part of flesh, etc. etc.

Yeah that's basically what I was thinking, they could probably do a decent job of battlefield surgery, but they won't be regrowing limbs anymore, I think they could do things like soulcasting some air into muscle or something to close the wounds over and prevent blood loss (or soulcast the blood I suppose) but yeah they'd still need surgery afterwards

[Odium's_Shard]

also, wouldnt you need a pattern to work with. say a carved arm to turn to flesh. but would that carving require bloodvessels or do they come with the flesh. you'd probably need to combine the heliodor with a garnet to have them come at the same time. also, would bone be considered a part of flesh, etc. etc

For all of the things that you state you would need, the following gems would be required if the gem does determine the produced Essence:

Garnet for the Blood to run through the flesh.

Helidor obviously for the muscles and flesh itself.

Emerald for hair etc, and organic substance.

Amethyst if you were doing the arm and hands, you might require nails.

Topaz because bone falls under 'Talus' as a specific Essence, and you WILL need some of that.

The amount of framework and previous set up and concentration for this to work would be sheerly impossibly though. If you going to make a working model of an arm, with appropriate materials for all different aspects I mentioned, and then have to Soulcast them into existence ALL AT ONCE, why not just sew up the stump and be done with it?

Besides, its immodestly expensive.

[master]

Garnet for the Blood to run through the flesh.

Helidor obviously for the muscles and flesh itself.

Emerald for hair etc, and organic substance.

Amethyst if you were doing the arm and hands, you might require nails.

Topaz because bone falls under 'Talus' as a specific Essence, and you WILL need some of that.

From what I understood from the book and ars arcanum the soulcasting properties are separate to the body focus. Emerald makes plants which has nothing to do with hair except they are both organic., nd if I remember correctly amethyst is metal, so it has even less to do with nails.

Of course I may be wrong.

[Odium's_Shard]

I apologise for that. I got it mixed up on my chart. However, I still believe that the Body Focuses must be able to be Soulcast somehow, and you will still need those nails, hair and bones.

[Kurkistan]

It could be, my fluid mechanics is terrible so I'll have to defer to Chaos on this one. I still think the easiest way is to get a soulcasting fabrial and soulcast the ground under them into a liquid (blood I guess) then back into a solid, trapping them quite effectively.

A bit late, but I just got back from a PM with Satsuoni, who says that, the higher the gravity, the less the splash in air. If we could finagle a vacuum, then we would be all fine and dandy, with splashes galore. Air resistance does not like splashes at high velocity, though, so it looks like we need to rework how to mundanely murder Windrunners.

I still say that, if you manage to get enough bolts from enough directions, the Windrunner will be forced to pull something through him/herself on its way to impacting whatever object s/he is using as an anchor.

Ex.

..0

.0A0

0AWA0

.0A0

..0

Whichever potential anchor 'A' the Windrunner 'W' uses, several of the projectiles/flaming liquids coming from vector '0' will have to travel through the Windrunner in order to reach the anchor.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Kurkistan

[Voidus]

They still have the option to lash themselves away from the bolts in that case thought, but with a flaming projectile that could probably work quite well. Another thing I'm thinking is gas of some kind, even smoke would work well enough to distract them long enough to kill them some other way and a reverse lashing wouldn't be too effective either and only effective for as long as the lashing lasted

[oGGe]

Is it possible to swim in a suit of shard plate? Drowning sounds like a good way to get rid of a shardplate-user?

[Odium's_Shard]

One would assume it would be water-proof, seeing how it doesn't have any chinks in the plating (however the water may be able to get into slits that a blade couldn't), so unless he had oxygen, he'd pretty quickly breath himself out.

[Kurkistan]

^The visor eyeslit is also completely open.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Kurkistan

[Odium's_Shard]

I was sure that the visor could be closed? Ah, but it must leave eyeslits, doesn't it.

[Odium's_Shard]

I was sure that the visor could be closed? Ah, but it must leave eyeslits, doesn't it.

[Odium's_Shard]

I was sure that the visor could be closed? Ah, but it must leave eyeslits, doesn't it.

[oGGe]

a plastic bag over the head? tight enough so that you cant grab it with gloves on?

[Kurkistan]

a plastic bag over the head? tight enough so that you cant grab it with gloves on?

If you're close enough and have enough time to tightly secure the bag to their head, I think some warhammer-action might be more appropriate.

The gloves are quite dexterous, as well as transmitting touch sensations--barring that, a Shardbearer can disengage their gauntlets at will to use their bare hands (forcing them to drop a gauntlet would be a victory of sorts, I suppose).

If the Shardbearer had any non-soul-shearing weapons handy, he could also scrape a sword or a spearpoint along his own face to cut up the bag.

This also besides the point that they don't have plastic available to them. Chemistry doesn't exactly appear to be a strong suit on Nalthis Roshar.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Kurkistan

[Odium's_Shard]

By Nalthis, don't you mean Roshar? And by the way of the antifabrian research, I am assuming they still hold to some scientific practice, and how you might go about it, but granted, they probably know very little about elements other than that they can be Soulcast. What interests me about Brandon's books is that there seems to be a science that threatens to erupt from all of his magic systems, be it advanced medical practices using Feruchemy, therapy using Emotional Allomancy, or production of resources from Fabrials/Transformation/Soulcasting, all of which are similar to practices that we have on our own planet, but made much simpler by the use of magic.

Whereas Mistborn are legendary in AoL, the other Allomancers and Feruchemists become almost a part of everyday life and businesses, which I find really cool, seeing as how the population has to adapt to and use these additional resources.