Voidus Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 Although shoving a bunch of spikes onto all of your corridors seems like a bit of an over reaction when there are only 2 people known that can do it But yeah, spike and ballista seem like a winning combination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triasmus Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 I'd say that the best defense is to become completely unimportant... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 I'd say that the best defense is to become completely unimportant... Haha, well that's true, but just for the purposes of discussion let's say that's not possible I think that basically the best method is to have a few disposable troops to engage in melee combat and then get a heap of archers to just shoot them all full of arrows, if he tries to do a reverse lashing in that instance he'd get cut down by the infantry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJWB0mb Posted March 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 I'd say that the best defense is to become completely unimportant... actually having a body double may help as a distraction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 actually having a body double may help as a distraction. Didn't work too well in the prologue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkistan Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 (edited) Explosives are probably the best way to go with Windrunners. Launch a few dozen projectiles at Szeth from several directions and he can't dodge all of them, so his only recourse would be a reverse lashing on an object within arm's reach. The projectiles hit the lashed object, pressure fuses go off... KERBLAMO EDIT: On that note, you might not need explosives (thinking of Roshar tech-level here). If a projectile could be filled with lamp oil or the like (curses, they don't have lamps, do they?), the splashes whenever the projectiles impacted a reverse-lashed "shield" would most likely cover the Windrunner in question. Just throw in an ignition source (either a specialized projectile or incorporated into all of them) and you have the Human Torch. Surgebind away from that! Edited March 27, 2012 by Kurkistan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aradel Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 Poor people use lamps and candles when they don't have enough money to light their home. Literally. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkistan Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 Poor people use lamps and candles when they don't have enough money to light their home. Literally. I thought I remembered that being the case, but I wasn't sure. Lamp oil it is, then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 (edited) I'm not sure that burns would be enough, they can rapidly heal when given stormlight. Still it would probably distract him long enough to kill him some other way I guess so good idea Edit: actually on reflection depending on how much control they have over the basic Lashing they might be able to just send all of that flaming oil right back at you, if so I now officially want to be a windrunner more than any other magic user (other than possibly a mistborn feruchemist ) Edited March 27, 2012 by Voidus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyRioter Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 if you could hit him with enough projectiles full of hot oil, you might be able to drain away all his Stormlight from the healing, then you could just shoot him with a regular arrow that he wouldn't be able to avoid. Or with more hot oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 Yeah could definitely work, I'm still a bit distracted at the thought of Szeth shooting essentially fireballs at people. Changing gravity has so many potential applications Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkistan Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 I'm not sure that burns would be enough, they can rapidly heal when given stormlight. Still it would probably distract him long enough to kill him some other way I guess so good idea Edit: actually on reflection depending on how much control they have over the basic Lashing they might be able to just send all of that flaming oil right back at you, if so I now officially want to be a windrunner more than any other magic user (other than possibly a mistborn feruchemist ) I think the windrunner would be too busy catching on fire to be able to pull of a Basic Lashing on an amorphous mass of flaming oil flying through the air at his/her face, even assuming the ability to Lash liquids. After the oil impacts the windrunner, I doubt that s/he could perform a lashing on it, since it would just be a layer of (flaming) liquid covering his/her body, not a distinct, tangible object. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aiken Frost Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 As I said before: molotovs for the win! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkistan Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 As I said before: molotovs for the win! Yes you did. Sorry I forgot that comment. In my defense, you were talking about defeating Plate, not windrunners Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 Haha, good point, I'm still not entirely sure how a basic lashing works so I can't be sure but I still think someone with enough practice could probably pull it off, but this would still be effective against 99% of Windrunners Although if they used a reverse lashing I'm not sure how the oil would react to that, if they used a reverse lashing to draw it away in the first place, then even on shattering it might still stick to the ceiling/wall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkistan Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 Haha, good point, I'm still not entirely sure how a basic lashing works so I can't be sure but I still think someone with enough practice could probably pull it off, but this would still be effective against 99% of Windrunners Although if they used a reverse lashing I'm not sure how the oil would react to that, if they used a reverse lashing to draw it away in the first place, then even on shattering it might still stick to the ceiling/wall Remember that liquids splash upwards all the time, so even if the oil is caught up in the lashing, it could still quite reasonably splash "up" towards the windrunner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 Yes, but a reverse lashing is also a lot stronger than normal gravity most of the time, after all you wouldn't need to reverse lash to the wall if it was going to fall down anyway it's of variable strength I should think so yeah it could potentially reduce the splash quite a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkistan Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) Yes, but a reverse lashing is also a lot stronger than normal gravity most of the time, after all you wouldn't need to reverse lash to the wall if it was going to fall down anyway it's of variable strength I should think so yeah it could potentially reduce the splash quite a bit. Hmm... I'm not exactly up to snuff on my fluid dynamics mechanics, but doesn't the height of the splash depend largely on the amount of energy the liquid in question had when it impacted a surface? So the higher the "gravity" of the reverse-lashing, the more energy the liquid has to splash "up" with. Does anyone (Chaos) know if I'm actually right, and/or to what extent this additional energy would offset the additional pull? Does it balance out entirely? EDIT: See? I didn't even know the right name! Edited March 28, 2012 by Kurkistan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 It could be, my fluid mechanics is terrible so I'll have to defer to Chaos on this one. I still think the easiest way is to get a soulcasting fabrial and soulcast the ground under them into a liquid (blood I guess) then back into a solid, trapping them quite effectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkistan Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 It could be, my fluid mechanics is terrible so I'll have to defer to Chaos on this one. I still think the easiest way is to get a soulcasting fabrial and soulcast the ground under them into a liquid (blood I guess) then back into a solid, trapping them quite effectively. Unless you go all Jasnah-ranged-death-bolt on him, the soulcaster would have to be touching that same ground at the same. Not exactly the safest proposition. If you notice, I've also been trying fairly hard in my ideas to avoid using magic to deal with shardbearers/windrunners. I would prefer a mundane, reliable solution, preferably useful in a range of situations, including the battlefield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 Yeah I understand, it is always good to have a more reliable option you never know when you'll have an Ardent around I suppose On the having to touch the same ground as them, this isn't too difficult as you would presumably be standing on it, I think you would be able to soulcast a particular segment as well so no need to soulcast yourself into the ground as well. Yeah that fir thing is the best idea i've seen I think, I just realised that the next book may contain a Szeth/Kaladin fight which would be one of the best fight scenes of all time. Also Windrunners are seeming more and more invulnerable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkistan Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) Yeah I understand, it is always good to have a more reliable option you never know when you'll have an Ardent around I suppose On the having to touch the same ground as them, this isn't too difficult as you would presumably be standing on it, I think you would be able to soulcast a particular segment as well so no need to soulcast yourself into the ground as well. Yeah that fir thing is the best idea i've seen I think, I just realised that the next book may contain a Szeth/Kaladin fight which would be one of the best fight scenes of all time. Also Windrunners are seeming more and more invulnerable. I think we have different definitions of "the same ground." My understanding is that normal soulcasters must be physically touching their target in order to work. I interpret this to mean that they have to be touching some part of their target, which allows them to soulcast the whole of it. So to soulcast a 1x1x1 meter cube of stone, they have to touch at least one corner of that cube. They can't touch the ground ten feet away and then soulcast an arbitrary segment of stone which happens to be part of "the same ground." This would necessitate uncomfortably close placement of your invaluable Ardents within spitting distance of a windrunner, since it is my understanding that the larger the soulcasting target, the more difficult, time-consuming, and costly it is. Yeah, the Szeth/Kaladin fight. I sincerely hope that it doesn't happen, since poor Kal would get his eye-burnt head handed to him. Maybe a brief clash were they each go "he has my powers!" and then disengage, but Szeth is the past master of windrunning techniques and possesses a shardblade, while Kal doesn't even know the Basic Lashing exists as of now and does not have a magical soul-shearing weapon at his beck and call. Edited March 28, 2012 by Kurkistan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 Well Kal is on his way to being a full KR though so surely that's got to bring some kind of advantage. As for the same ground thing I did forget that the larger the target the more strain on gems and all that, trying to soulcast an entire hallway floor is probably a bit impractical... ah well, best move on. I'm hoping that the arrival of an actual KR might cause something to happen to Szeth (hopefully the releasing of him being Truthless) alternatively if it doesn't he's almost certainly going to want to continue fighting Kaladin as much as possible as Kaladin is one of the only people now who even has a chance of taking him out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaderAt2046 Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 I think we have different definitions of "the same ground." My understanding is that normal soulcasters must be physically touching their target in order to work. I interpret this to mean that they have to be touching some part of their target, which allows them to soulcast the whole of it. So to soulcast a 1x1x1 meter cube of stone, they have to touch at least one corner of that cube. They can't touch the ground ten feet away and then soulcast an arbitrary segment of stone which happens to be part of "the same ground." This would necessitate uncomfortably close placement of your invaluable Ardents within spitting distance of a windrunner, since it is my understanding that the larger the soulcasting target, the more difficult, time-consuming, and costly it is. Yeah, the Szeth/Kaladin fight. I sincerely hope that it doesn't happen, since poor Kal would get his eye-burnt head handed to him. Maybe a brief clash were they each go "he has my powers!" and then disengage, but Szeth is the past master of windrunning techniques and possesses a shardblade, while Kal doesn't even know the Basic Lashing exists as of now and does not have a magical soul-shearing weapon at his beck and call. Yeah, but remember that Adolin still has Blade and Plate, and he's the best duelist anywhere in Roshar. That will help even the odds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkistan Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 @Voidus It's my understanding that Szeth is Truthless of his own free will, bound only by his honor and not by any magic. Unless the existence of a KR happens to be the requirement to free Szeth from that bond, I don't see Kaladin simply being a KR "freeing" Szeth from being Truthless. @Reader I hadn't considered the presence of other actors in any Szeth/Kaladin fight. Adolin might be able to even the odds, I admit, but that depends heavily on him being both on scene and "suited up" for any fight. The only reason Szeth's other target had Shardbearer guards on hand was because he was expecting Szeth, which Dalinar is not as of now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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