Unknown Shards

[ReaderAt2046]

Actually Honors works in the same way as Ruin, as a verb. But because all the others are in a non-verb state, as in a thing, noun, such as Cultivation being a thing, and to cultivate being a verb. But technically 'Ruins' isn't a plural.

/nerdrant

Honors and Ruins are plurals. One ruin + one ruin = 2 ruins, just like one king + one king = two kings. Same with honors.

[Odium's_Shard]

To have a Ruin in the sense of a destruction, in noun form, is impossible, but I am assuming that you are using the noun 'ruin' as in a destroyed place, for example, the ruin of an ancient temple. But as I said, there isn't a plurable noun for 'Ruin', because it is a notion as opposed to a thing, and so there cannot be multiple aspects of it, in the same way as there cannot be multiple 'happiness(es)'.

[stellgod]

Hey all, new here and just finished reading WoK. I was just wanting to point out that we're missing a critical piece of information in regards to these shards. Purpose. What is the finished product when all of these shards come together? I have a hard time believing that it's the power of "Creation". I don't see Honor playing a big role in Creation, but if we break down the word Adonalsium I think we get a better picture.

Let's break it apart Adon which means: "a beau," 1620s, from Gk. Adonis, name of the youth beloved by Aphrodite, from Phoenician adon "lord," probably originally "ruler," from base a-d-n "to judge, rule." Adonai, an O.T. word for "God," is the Heb. cognate, with pl. of majesty.

I get "lord, ruler, to judge, rule" as the primary descriptors.

The last part -ium is the typical naming convention for elements. So basically, The Ruler's Element.

It may not mean a hill of beans since it's pure specualtion, but I think it defines one major point. It's a God/Supreme Being, and as such, I believe these "shards" are "human-like elements, which just brings up another point. The shards will be human qualities. I think this fits with what we've seen so far.

Cultivation, Honor, Odium (hatred), Ruin, Preservation, Endowment, Devotion, Dominion are all humanlike qualities.

Now, I believe Honor's equal and opposing shard is Duplicity, as shown by Sadeas. That's just pure speculation again.

Another wild guess would be to Dominion's opposite: Submission.

So my list goes:

Ruin-Preservation

Honor-Duplicity

Dominion-Submission

Cultivation-Reap(I believe this would be the one Odium would absorb since it's the closest to a destruction like shard)

Odium-(I almost believe Odium has absorbed more than 1 shard like Sazed has because what could be scarier than a big bad guy with multiple shards? Also, since Harmony is now composed of TWO shards, there has to be an opposite force to equal him out right? So I guess I could enter Harmony here as Odium's opposite.)

Endowment-

Devotion-

[Windrunner]

Hi Stellgod, welcome to 17th Shard! If you get a chance you should make a topic in out New Members thread so we can all say hi.

In response to your ideas, the fact is that not every Shard has an opposite.

CHAOS

Are Shards all paired? Does Endowment have a counterpart?

BRANDON SANDERSON

RAFO. Also, yes and no. Not all Shards have perfect counterparts like Ruin and Preservation.

QUESTION

Why were Ruin and Preservation linked together?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Because they're such perfect opposites. Basically it's just an opposites attract thing.

Source

So some Shards may have opposites like you mentioned but many may not. I'll not bore you with the details of my own theory on this subject since this isn't really the place for it (if you want to see check the Shard-Complements link in my sig) Also since Harmony isn't one Shard but two separate ones held by the same man, then Odium cannot be its opposite, since its not technically a single Shard.

Also for the pairs you have suggested, if those Shards (Honor, Dominion, Cultivation, and etc.) had perfect opposites they would have been attracted together like Ruin and Preservation were, and would have ended up on the same Shardworld. Since we know the intent of every Shard on all the worlds that we've seen (save for a potential Splinter on Roshar), it appears that those Shards don't exist. I think we may see variants on similar ideas, but no perfect opposites for these Shards. I like your ideas though, and I sincerely hope it doesn't seem like I'm being rude.

[stellgod]

Hi Stellgod, welcome to 17th Shard! If you get a chance you should make a topic in out New Members thread so we can all say hi.

In response to your ideas, the fact is that not every Shard has an opposite.

So some Shards may have opposites like you mentioned but many may not. I'll not bore you with the details of my own theory on this subject since this isn't really the place for it (if you want to see check the Shard-Complements link in my sig) Also since Harmony isn't one Shard but two separate ones held by the same man, then Odium cannot be its opposite, since its not technically a single Shard.

Also for the pairs you have suggested, if those Shards (Honor, Dominion, Cultivation, and etc.) had perfect opposites they would have been attracted together like Ruin and Preservation were, and would have ended up on the same Shardworld. Since we know the intent of every Shard on all the worlds that we've seen (save for a potential Splinter on Roshar), it appears that those Shards don't exist. I think we may see variants on similar ideas, but no perfect opposites for these Shards. I like your ideas though, and I sincerely hope it doesn't seem like I'm being rude.

No worries dood. I had no idea about the greater world of Sanderson until I finished WoK. So, I've basically only been studying this stuff for about a day. This was just my first random shot in the dark. I was hoping it was something simple, and predictable as complete opposite, but oh well.

[ReaderAt2046]

Hey all, new here and just finished reading WoK. I was just wanting to point out that we're missing a critical piece of information in regards to these shards. Purpose. What is the finished product when all of these shards come together? I have a hard time believing that it's the power of "Creation". I don't see Honor playing a big role in Creation, but if we break down the word Adonalsium I think we get a better picture.

Let's break it apart Adon which means: "a beau," 1620s, from Gk. Adonis, name of the youth beloved by Aphrodite, from Phoenician adon "lord," probably originally "ruler," from base a-d-n "to judge, rule." Adonai, an O.T. word for "God," is the Heb. cognate, with pl. of majesty.

I get "lord, ruler, to judge, rule" as the primary descriptors.

The last part -ium is the typical naming convention for elements. So basically, The Ruler's Element.

It may not mean a hill of beans since it's pure specualtion, but I think it defines one major point. It's a God/Supreme Being, and as such, I believe these "shards" are "human-like elements, which just brings up another point. The shards will be human qualities. I think this fits with what we've seen so far.

Cultivation, Honor, Odium (hatred), Ruin, Preservation, Endowment, Devotion, Dominion are all humanlike qualities.

Now, I believe Honor's equal and opposing shard is Duplicity, as shown by Sadeas. That's just pure speculation again.

Another wild guess would be to Dominion's opposite: Submission.

So my list goes:

Ruin-Preservation

Honor-Duplicity

Dominion-Submission

Cultivation-Reap(I believe this would be the one Odium would absorb since it's the closest to a destruction like shard)

Odium-(I almost believe Odium has absorbed more than 1 shard like Sazed has because what could be scarier than a big bad guy with multiple shards? Also, since Harmony is now composed of TWO shards, there has to be an opposite force to equal him out right? So I guess I could enter Harmony here as Odium's opposite.)

Endowment-

Devotion-

Actually, we're pretty sure Devotion and Dominion are paired.

[Commander Spoonface]

Hey all, new here and just finished reading WoK. I was just wanting to point out that we're missing a critical piece of information in regards to these shards. Purpose. What is the finished product when all of these shards come together? I have a hard time believing that it's the power of "Creation". I don't see Honor playing a big role in Creation, but if we break down the word Adonalsium I think we get a better picture.

Why can't Honor be part of Creation? In Sanderson's world, Honor is simply the binding of two things together.

[stellgod]

Why can't Honor be part of Creation? In Sanderson's world, Honor is simply the binding of two things together.

It's entirely possible that it is, but here's my reasoning for it. I was thinking the shards bear human like qualities instead of what I consider "nature" like qualities. By nature, I mean the atypical, Earth, Wind, Fire, Water, Heart (Captaaain Planet!). I don't consider Honor to be a part of nature, instead, I think it's a purely human creation, but I digress, I'm rather new to the Cosmere so I could be off base completely.

Hopefully, I'm explaining myself clearly, because it's a rather abstract thought even in my brain, and I can't back it up with anything.

[Commander Spoonface]

It's entirely possible that it is, but here's my reasoning for it. I was thinking the shards bear human like qualities instead of what I consider "nature" like qualities. By nature, I mean the atypical, Earth, Wind, Fire, Water, Heart (Captaaain Planet!). I don't consider Honor to be a part of nature, instead, I think it's a purely human creation, but I digress, I'm rather new to the Cosmere so I could be off base completely.

Hopefully, I'm explaining myself clearly, because it's a rather abstract thought even in my brain, and I can't back it up with anything.

I think you mean "typical"... anyway, essentially all of the Shards are emotions or human attributes. I think that where you're coming from is that the power of Creation should be the power of the Platonic elements. The reason I believe that Adnolasium could be some sort of creation power is as follows:

Think of the way Preservation and Ruin acted when blended. Their intents became less focused and Harony had a great deal more versatility with that power, allowing for preserving and ruining. Imagine the result of all sixteen Shards converged. It seems to me that all Shardic intent would be cancelled out, leaving a mass of raw, incredibly versatile power.

However, there is no proof either way, as far as I am aware. Unless we know more about the Shattering of Adnolasium or Adnolasium itself, we can't really say.

[ReaderAt2046]

I strongly suspect Adonalsium is the power of Brandon's imagination, the ultimate source of all things Cosmere.

[Tazren]

I've always thought there should be something like Evolution/Progression, with a need for constant change.

[Youngy]

Is it just me or does it seem like Ruin - Preservation - [Missing]

Ruin is breaking things into smaller pieces.

Preservation is keeping things as they are.

[Missing] is building things into stronger and larger things.

This was just off the thought train that Ruin/Preservation aren't really opposing, although they are... although they aren't 'opposites.'

[Commander Spoonface]

The idea I got from the Mistborn books is that Harmony is your [Missing} third there. Because growth occurs when things are broken down and then recreated, Preservation and Ruin have to work together to make things greater.

The distinction between Preservation being a static state and making things greater blurs a lot, in my opinion.

[Morsk]

The whole Adonalsium is supposed to be the power of Creation. So I think it's not so much that Ruin + Preservation = Creation, but that using multiple Shards together allows them to approach the potential that was lost when Adonalsium was shattered.

edit: Actually, it reminds me of Mistings. If they have more than one power, they have them all, not because the powers combine, but because anyone with that much connection to Preservation has crossed a threshold.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Morsk

[Jeremy]

So, this might be a little crazy, and is based on a recently posted deleted scene, so take it with a grain of salt, but what about Truth as the third unknown/missing shard on Roshar? You can read the scene in full here: http://brandonsanderson.com/library/147/The-Way-of-Kings-Prime-Jeksonsonvallano

In particular, references to Truth made by Jek (aka the Shin assassin we now know as Szeth), make it seem like some god-like figure named Truth was/is a prominent figure in the Shin belief system (potentially shedding some new light on the whole notion of what it means to be Truthless). One specific quote from the deleted scene that led to this theory is "As it was, however, Truth forbade the attacking of children, women, and non-warriors". Of course, Truth and Honor are similar concepts, and it could be that Brandon has simply decided to call the Shard "Honor" in the time since this was written back in 2003.

If I've missed something somewhere and we already know what the third shard on Roshar is/was, would somebody be able to direct me to a quote? Thanks.

[Commander Spoonface]

So, this might be a little crazy, and is based on a recently posted deleted scene, so take it with a grain of salt, but what about Truth as the third unknown/missing shard on Roshar? You can read the scene in full here: http://brandonsanderson.com/library/147/The-Way-of-Kings-Prime-Jeksonsonvallano

In particular, references to Truth made by Jek (aka the Shin assassin we now know as Szeth), make it seem like some god-like figure named Truth was/is a prominent figure in the Shin belief system (potentially shedding some new light on the whole notion of what it means to be Truthless). One specific quote from the deleted scene that led to this theory is "As it was, however, Truth forbade the attacking of children, women, and non-warriors". Of course, Truth and Honor are similar concepts, and it could be that Brandon has simply decided to call the Shard "Honor" in the time since this was written back in 2003.

If I've missed something somewhere and we already know what the third shard on Roshar is/was, would somebody be able to direct me to a quote? Thanks.

Some think it might be Odium-Honor-Cultivation, but we do know that Odium is not native to Roshar and might therefore not count. I don't know if Truth itself could be a Shard, but it might be a name for a Shard with a slightly different aspect, or another name for Honor.

[Jeremy]

I guess I was presupposing that Odium wasn't one of the three. The epigram for chapter 11 of WoK states that "Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns." I guess you could make an argument either way about whether Odium is meant to be one of the original "three of sixteen", but I am personally of the opinion that, since we know that Odium isn't native to Roshar, the Broken One is meant to be separate. Of course, that's merely speculation on my part, and I'm not too attached to the conclusion. Of course, if Odium IS one of the three, there wouldn't a missing Shard on Roshar, so my whole theory is moot. Also, the fact that Szeth doesn't think about Truth in any of his viewpoints in the published WoK kind of weakens my theory about Truth as a Shard. Quite possibly an old name for Honor, and it has since been changed. Meh. Worth thinking about, but I could easily be wrong.

[ReaderAt2046]

Apathy: Users of this magic can generate Blah energy, which causes things to become lethargic, weak, and slow. So, for example, you could expose a fire to Blah energy and it would become uninterested in burning and go out.