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Let's talk about Nightblood and other such swords


Miyabi

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I went back a few pages and didn't see this exact discussion and I don't want to necro an old thread, so let's start a new discussion.

So, Szeth now has Nightblood, which terrifies me by the way. In Warbreaker we didn't see Nightblood do anything too extraordinary, but I feel this is primarily because he requires sunlight and air... I mean Investiture to be wielded. Szeth has access to massive amounts of Stormlight he could feed Nightblood while he wields it. I'm terrified to see the things this sword will be able to do.

There is however the fact that Szeth has died and now is released from his previous state of being. He doesn't want to kill. So this could potentially be a good thing. He could possibly use Nightblood and its power as a means to stop people he feels will cause a lot of killing.

Now let's talk about Hoid's sword. He never draws the blade, and it is often described in similar ways as Nightblood is. This in the past had lead me to believe that it was Nightblood. I feel however that it is probably another awakened blade that will come into play once Hoid realized Nightblood is around causing trouble.

These swords were created by a system that has a very measured source of Investiture and required a huge amount of it. They are now in a place that has a nearly limitless source which can feed them nearly indefinitely. This feels potentially broken and could cause more trouble than any other weapon we have seen previously used in the Cosmere.

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I don't think Szeth can feed Nightblood. He used his Honorblade to draw in Stormlight, and he doesn't have it anymore. If he attracts a highspren, though, maybe he'll be able to use Nightblood.

 

Nightblood is plenty terrifying on its own, even without a source of Investiture.

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It remains to be seen if the HIghspren are actually working with Nale and his "skybreakers" in the modern era. Though I suppose we will fairly soon in Stones Unhallowed. 

 

This thread makes me wonder if Hoid, in the Epilogue of WoR, is having a conversation with the Rosharian ecosystem, or is actually having a telepathic conversation with his awakened sword...? Hmm... I just re-read the section and there is nothing to indicate that he is actually speaking to the animals. He may have figured a way to use Stormlight to power Awakening here so he didn't need to work on getting the 1000 breaths necessary. 

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I would imagine that the originally Awakening still needed to be done using Breaths. Investiture is really tricky, to use it as a catalyst to make another magic work is something I think would be really difficult, but simply fueling an already existing creation I think is more plausible.

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Nightblood is an equivalent of a shardblade. And Nightblood can make connections to people.  I suspect this is why Vasher can use stormlight to keep himself alive.  Nightblood appears to be able to bind with multiple people, and doesn't seem to be as discriminating as Spren.   

 

With Nightblood, I do not think Szeth needs a Spren-bond to gain access to stormlight.  I think this planet only requires a link to spren-like entity to gain access to investiture.  So Nightblood, or a Seon would allow access to stormlight.  

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Mistborn spoilers.

 

With Nightblood, I do not think Szeth needs a Spren-bond to gain access to stormlight.  I think this planet only requires a link to spren-like entity to gain access to investiture.  So Nightblood, or a Seon would allow access to stormlight.  

 

Vin wasn't able to take in the mists until she became 'keyed' to Preservation. Since Stormlight is the equivalent of the mists (gaseous Investiture), we'd expect Stormlight should require you to similarly be keyed to whatever Shard is responsible for Stormlight, which is probably Honor since the Stormfather is responsible for Stormlight. Nightblood is of Endowment, so I don't think he can provide that 'keying' needed to take in the Stormlight.

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Mistborn spoilers.

 

 

Vin wasn't able to take in the mists until she became 'keyed' to Preservation. Since Stormlight is the equivalent of the mists (gaseous Investiture), we'd expect Stormlight should require you to similarly be keyed to whatever Shard is responsible for Stormlight, which is probably Honor since the Stormfather is responsible for Stormlight. Nightblood is of Endowment, so I don't think he can provide that 'keying' needed to take in the Stormlight.

 

I thought there was a WoB regarding Seon's and the Roshar magic system.  Doing some basic searching, you appeared to think so at one point http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/7653-guesses-nightbloods-powers-on-roshar/

 

The only WoB I could find in a quick search is:

 

WoB:

  • Q: If an Elantrian bonded to a Seon and traveled to Roshar, would that act as a Nahel bond?

    A: It would act very very similarly, yes. But it would be like… it wouldn't necesarily do the exact same things. It would be treated the exact same way, but wouldn't grant the same powers.

  • Q: Could a Seon, or a Skaze, could they turn into a, some sort of Shardblade on their own planet?

    A: That is theoretically possible. It's—I mean they work under the same fundamentals, but they would need to have something to pull them more into the physical realm.

 

I guess I interpreted that is you would gain access to stormlight, but you would not be able to do anything with is.  Accept maybe self-heal.  

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I thought there was a WoB regarding Seon's and the Roshar magic system.  Doing some basic searching, you appeared to think so at one point http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/7653-guesses-nightbloods-powers-on-roshar/

 

The only WoB I could find in a quick search is:

 

I guess I interpreted that is you would gain access to stormlight, but you would not be able to do anything with is.  Accept maybe self-heal.  

 

Well, the way I'm taking it to mean is that the Nahel bond gives you a bunch of nice things - the ability to take in Stormlight, Surgebind, and depending on the spren, improved fighting skills, improved memory/improved artistic abilities, that sort of thing. I don't think it necessarily means you can take in Stormlight if you're bonded to a Seon. Maybe a Seon would grant you special abilities based on its Aon - being bound to Ien would give you fast-healing abilities, being bound to Ashe would make you glow/be able to see in the dark, that sort of thing.

 

It's impossible to tell until we actually get SA3, unfortunately. :(

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I'd like to note that Nightblood can likely eat Investiture without it necessarily having to be "filtered" through his wielder.

 

MORE MISTBORN SPOILERS

 

He would apparently make a game attempt at eating the mists on Scadrial on his own if he had the chance.

Edited by Kurkistan
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I'd like to note that Nightblood can likely eat Investiture without it necessarily having to be "filtered" through his wielder.

 

MORE MISTBORN SPOILERS

 

He would apparently make a game attempt at eating the mists on Scadrial on his own if he had the chance.

The question there is if he would also attempt to eat the Investiture of his wielder. On Nalthis, the Investiture of his wielder is really the only kind of Investiture available, so he obviously eats it there. But would he still try to eat the wielder if there was another major source of free Investiture around?

If he would still do it, then Szeth would need to be holding Stormlight so that Nightblood would eat that first. But if he just goes for the largest source of Investiture available, then anyone can use him as long as they have an available storm. Protection from the dangers of the high/Everstorm would of course be provided by Nightblood.

If that's how it works, then the best thing to do is run. Run away, as fast as you can. If you're lucky, an Elsecaller or a Shardpool might be able to get you into Shadesmar so you can head to another planet where you will be safer. Preferably one without a Shard, so there isn't much Investiture around for Nightblood to eat (and there's less novel-worthy stuff going on, so there will be fewer worldhoppers to bring Nightblood there).

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The question there is if he would also attempt to eat the Investiture of his wielder. On Nalthis, the Investiture of his wielder is really the only kind of Investiture available, so he obviously eats it there. But would he still try to eat the wielder if there was another major source of free Investiture around?

If he would still do it, then Szeth would need to be holding Stormlight so that Nightblood would eat that first. But if he just goes for the largest source of Investiture available, then anyone can use him as long as they have an available storm. Protection from the dangers of the high/Everstorm would of course be provided by Nightblood.

If that's how it works, then the best thing to do is run. Run away, as fast as you can. If you're lucky, an Elsecaller or a Shardpool might be able to get you into Shadesmar so you can head to another planet where you will be safer. Preferably one without a Shard, so there isn't much Investiture around for Nightblood to eat (and there's less novel-worthy stuff going on, so there will be fewer worldhoppers to bring Nightblood there).

Yeah, I can see what you're saying.  OTOH, Vasher and now Nale apparently have handled Nightblood successfully.  Assuming Nale has had Nightblood for most of the time that Vasher has not had him, Nale has had Nightblood for a long time.  If Nale wanted Szeth dead, all he had to do was not resurrect him.  Szeth doesn't seem greedy or undisciplined, so I could imagine him working well with Nightblood. 

 

Much like Syl lightens up Kal's viewpoints, I can see Nightblood's cold-unblooded "banter" making Szeth's POV much more enjoyable. 

 

{off topic}What does Odium think of Nightblood?{/off topic}

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Oh, I'm exceptionally excited to hear the dialogue between Szeth and Nightblood. Previously Nightblood has had little to no real conceptualization as to what good and evil are and makes arbitrary decision based on the ideals of his previous wielders. I imagine the two will have a number of conversations that go like this:

"No, Nightblood, that's evil."

"Why?"

"Because reasons you wouldn't understand."

"BUT WHYYYYYYYYY!?"

haha.

Odium ... Hmm. I guess his and Honor's thoughts on Nightblood would depend on whose side he's on.

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Dies Szeth care about evil though? "Law above all else" is one of their ideals, much more LN than LG

 

Not to derail this thread into philosophy, but to a Skybreaker, not following the law might be evil. I'd agree they're LN, but that doesn't mean they don't equivocate law and morality in their own minds.

 

I could definitely see Szeth telling Nightblood that those who don't follow the law are evil as he uses Nightblood to murder them.

Edited by Moogle
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I'm actually wondering if there's a limit to how much Investiture Nightblood can consume over a given period.  That is, what's the rate of consumption and does he ever get "full"?  

 

Compare to humans.  We eat constantly over the course of a day (well, most of us do!), but we hit a point where we fill up due to our physiology.  Any excess energy is stored for later use.  We haven't seen too much of Nightblood "eating", unfortunately, but I'm wondering if he can store up Investiture or is it just simply used up like a flame burning gas in the air.  We know that Stormlight can be stored by humans, however imperfectly, so I'm curious if something like Nightblood can store in the presence of a lot of Investiture being present.

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There is however the fact that Szeth has died and now is released from his previous state of being. He doesn't want to kill. So this could potentially be a good thing. He could possibly use Nightblood and its power as a means to stop people he feels will cause a lot of killing.

I realize that the conversation has moved on from this, but I just can't get over it.  I disagree with you, completely.  In the beginning of WoK, Szeth doesn't want to kill; we see that, through his PoV, quite clearly.  However, even by the end, his attitude has changed.  He is mad at the king of Jah Keved for being so inept at killing him, for laying an ambush with so many innocents around, etc  He absolutely, truly wants to kill the king by the end of that scene.

 

Too, using Nightblood to stop people that will cause a lot of killing is going to be to kill them.  We've seen Nightblood's power used; it kills.  It doesn't stop people in any other way.  Szeth is not going to the Stone Shamanate in Shin to have talks with them; he was given Nightblood to counter their Honorblades.  The very, very heavy implication is that Szeth is going there to kill them all.  And it's going to be awesome.

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I can see what you're saying, but I think once he gets there his need for revenge will abate as he reasons through whether killing people is a good idea or not. I feel like he will become similar to a "nuclear deterrent." He'll show how grossly powerful he is and kill a bunch of people and then be used a pacing mechanism to say, "You better not, or else."

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I can see what you're saying, but I think once he gets there his need for revenge will abate as he reasons through whether killing people is a good idea or not. I feel like he will become similar to a "nuclear deterrent." He'll show how grossly powerful he is and kill a bunch of people and then be used a pacing mechanism to say, "You better not, or else."

Yeah, I don't see this happening.  I mean, him reasoning through anything.  All we've seen in two books is him specifically not reasoning.  That might change, sure, but seems more of something that happens over the course of the entire book--and it didn't seem like he was going to be wasting time on his journey to Shin.  After all, he's got murder on his mind.

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Yeah, I don't see this happening.  I mean, him reasoning through anything.  All we've seen in two books is him specifically not reasoning.  That might change, sure, but seems more of something that happens over the course of the entire book--and it didn't seem like he was going to be wasting time on his journey to Shin.  After all, he's got murder on his mind.

 

I may be misremembering, but what makes you think Szeth has murder on his mind? He abhors killing. Nalan is the only one who mentions killing the leaders of the Shin.

 

Also, Szeth was a scholar of some kind before he became Truthless, or at least well-educated. (It's apparently how he discovered the Voidbringers would return?) Thinking is going to be a thing with him, I think. He just had to turn that impulse off while he was Truthless because his thoughts lead to his exile. Now that he knows he was correct, well, I imagine he'll become much more confident in his reasoning abilities. (It is probably going to be a theme of SA3, after all, what with the Skybreakers being Just/Confident. It also occurs to me that it would apply well to Kaladin getting over his insecurities.)

Edited by Moogle
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I may be misremembering, but what makes you think Szeth has murder on his mind? He abhors killing. Nalan is the only one who mentions killing the leaders of the Shin.

 

Szeth used to abhor killing.  His time in service to Taravingian changed him.  He used to weep while he killed, but at the end of WoR, he decided to kill Adolin "on his own time".  Szeth is broken and bitter over being used and lied to.  The only honor he held onto was keeping his oath.  And now he's been informed by no less than a Herald of the Almighty that his oath is done.  I think Szeth will exact his revenge from the Shin leaders who forced the oath on him - and I don't think it is going to be pretty.

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Szeth used to abhor killing.  His time in service to Taravingian changed him.  He used to weep while he killed, but at the end of WoR, he decided to kill Adolin "on his own time".  Szeth is broken and bitter over being used and lied to.  The only honor he held onto was keeping his oath.  And now he's been informed by no less than a Herald of the Almighty that his oath is done.  I think Szeth will exact his revenge from the Shin leaders who forced the oath on him - and I don't think it is going to be pretty.

This.

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