Aluminum and Duralumin

[killersquirrel59]

I wonder what would happen if someone tried burning Aluminum enhanced with Duralumin...

 

...and discuss.

[Voidus]

The poison and negative Investiture removing effects would probably be more pronounced, other than that, not much I don't think

[killersquirrel59]

Sorry I should have specified. What would happen if an Allomancer burned Aluminum and Duralumin at the same time while burning another metal as well? What would happen to the effects of that other metal?

[Voidus]

Given that you couldn't burn them at exactly the same time (The human brain needs time to make decisions) the Aluminium would destroy all your metal reserves before you managed it just, assuming you could somehow burn all three simultaneously Aluminium would still destroy them first, Duralumin operates over a period of time, it's not instant.

[killersquirrel59]

Igniting metals is instantaneous. This is described many times in the books and is required for some of the maneuvers seen to be used by both Vin and Kelsier. Tapping a metalmind is also shown to be instantaneous. This does not take time. 

 

Duralumin also very clearly does not occur over time. It gives one burst of insane power and then the superflared metal is gone. 

[Voidus]

Igniting metals is instantaneous. This is described many times in the books and is required for some of the maneuvers seen to be used by both Vin and Kelsier. Tapping a metalmind is also shown to be instantaneous. This does not take time. 

 

The decision to flare or tap however is not, you have to switch thought processes.

 

 

 

Duralumin also very clearly does not occur over time. It gives one burst of insane power and then the superflared metal is gone. 

It takes a very small amount of time but it does take time, otherwise Vin couldn't use Duralumin on Steel and Pewter at the same time to prepare herself for the landing. If the power was compressed to 0 time it would result in near infinite power.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Voidus

[killersquirrel59]

Ok, it doesn't take 0 time. But now we are quibbling over the difference between ε (arbitrarily small number) and 0. While technically ε does not equal 0, it is close enough for all practical purposes to say that it does.

 

As the only evidence we have for Aluminum being "instantaneous" is anecdotal described from Vin's own perceptions, we can also assume that on the same basis the time that both effects occur over  equals ε and not 0. Therefore if tA = the time it takes for Aluminum to activate and tD equals the time it takes for Duralumin to activate, then it is still quite reasonable to say that tA = tD.

 

Similarly, the time it takes to ignite, flare, or extinguish a metal can also quite reasonably be equated to ε, as it cannot be long enough to require active concentration given the activities that Allomancers (as seen in the cases of Vin, Kelsier, and Elend) are undertaking while regularly igniting, flaring and extinguishing metal reserves without missing a beat. Tapping a metalmind can similarly be said to equal ε as shown by both Sazed and particularly in Alloy of Law by Wax, Wayne and Miles. If it took any significant time to tap a metalmind, Miles' trick would not work. Compounding gives near infinite reserves, allowing him to almost constantly be tapping, but does not decrease the time. If it took any real time at all, then he would not be able heal in response to being damaged in the way he does.

 

Let us now add some terms to the argument given the above statements.

 

tI = time to ignite a metal

tE = time to extinguish a metal

tF = time to flare a metal

tT = time to tap a metal mind

 

I contend based on the above arguments that all of these are equal to ε as well. Therefore, based on the established conjecture, Aluminum, Duralumin and whatever other metal (for the sake of argument let's use Pewter) would all activate simultaneously.

[Voidus]

Ok, it doesn't take 0 time. But now we are quibbling over the difference between ε (arbitrarily small number) and 0. While technically ε does not equal 0, it is close enough for all practical purposes to say that it does.

 

Not when you compare it to something that does take 0 time, if Duralumin operates over a time period then over 0 time it will have 0 effect, if Aluminium does operate over a 0 time period it will have an effect, eg. Aluminium would burn the other reserves out before they could be used. But I think you're underestimating the amount of time Duralumin burns for, in order for Vin to be able to audibly detect allomantic pulses with Bronze it needs to be active for long enough for a) multiple pulses to arrive (To determine the metal type and effect) and Vin's brain to process the wealth of information it just received, same thing with tin, it has to be at least longer than the amount of time that the sensory input would travel to and be processed by the brain, otherwise Duralumin + tin would do nothing.

 

 

 

As the only evidence we have for Aluminum being "instantaneous" is anecdotal described from Vin's own perceptions, we can also assume that on the same basis the time that both effects occur over  equals ε and not 0. Therefore if tA = the time it takes for Aluminum to activate and tD equals the time it takes for Duralumin to activate, then it is still quite reasonable to say that tA = tD.

My problem is more the time taken to switch from activating Aluminium to activating Duralumin, however small a time difference there is there will be A time difference, and whichever metal activates before that time difference will be the one to cause an effect.

[killersquirrel59]

There are several times in the books that it talks about Mistborn activating multiple metals simultaneously. True this is anecdotal evidence and could mean a time of ε in between activations, but from the descriptions I read it didn't seem like it. 

[Voidus]

There are several times in the books that it talks about Mistborn activating multiple metals simultaneously. True this is anecdotal evidence and could mean a time of ε in between activations, but from the descriptions I read it didn't seem like it. 

Sure, but there will be a very small time difference between the two activations, the chances of the two signals being sent from their brain at the exact same time are minuscule. It's like clicking with both hands at the same time, no matter how well you try to time it there will be a very slight difference in the times of clicks. And which metal comes first will affect the outcome, if Duralumin is active for even a fraction of a second first, you will get a fraction of a second of that metal at enhanced magnitudes, if Aluminium is activated first the other metals would be destroyed before their effects could be observed.

[killersquirrel59]

Vin hit the cobblestones shoulder-first. She rolled—flaring pewter to enhance her balance—and

flipped to her feet. At the same time, she burned iron and Pulled hard on the disappearing coins.

Solid evidence for activating two allomantic effects (burning iron and flaring pewter) simultaneously.

 

 

 

 

So, thinking herself incredibly clever, Vin burned the fourteenth metal.

A massive explosion sounded in her ears. Vin gasped, dropping to her knees in shock. Everything

grew bright around her, as if some crack of energy had illuminated the entire street. And she felt cold;frigidly, stunningly cold.

She moaned, trying to make sense of the sound. It. . .it wasn't an explosion, but many explosions.

A rhythmic thudding, like a drum pounding just beside her. Her heart-beat. And the breeze, loud as a

howling wind. The scratchings of a dog searching for food. Someone snoring in their sleep. It was as if her hearing had been magnified a hundred times.

And then. . .nothing. Vin fell backward against the cobblestones, the sudden rush of light,

coldness, and sound evaporating. A form moved in the shadows nearby, but she couldn't make it

out—she couldn't see in the darkness anymore. Her tin was. . .

Gone, she realized, coming to. My entire store of tin has been burned away. I was. . .burning

it, when I turned on the duralumin.

I burned them both at once. That's the secret. The duralumin had burned away all her tin in a

single, massive burst. It had made her senses amazingly acute for a very short time, but had stolen away her entire reserve. And, looking, she could see that her bronze and her pewter—the other metals she'd been burning at the time—were gone as well. The onrush of sensory information had been so vast thatshe hadn't noticed the effects of the other two.

 

 

This next one's not so much evidence of simultaneous burning, but is solid evidence for it not takingany real time or concentration if she can burn Duralumin in response to an attack while still carrying out her own attack.

The Thug nearest her swung his weapon. She needed to surprise him. So, she didn't dodge or block. She simply took his blow in the side, burning duralumin and pewter to resist. Something cracked,

within her as she was hit, but with duralumin, she was strong enough to stay up. Wood shattered, and she continued forward, slamming her dagger into the Thug's neck.

 

 

 

She didn't have a choice. Vin burned duralumin and flared her pewter. She flung her opponent's hands aside and smashed her head upward into his face.

This one solidly confirms that you can ignite Duralumin, for want of a better term, as part of the same Allomantic action as flaring a metal. If these actions activated in order rather than simultaneously, the Duralumin would burn out the Pewter before the flare could mean anything.

 

Zane awoke to the sound of a tent spike being pounded in a specific rhythm. His reaction was immediate. He burned steel and pewter. He always swallowed a new bit of each before sleeping. He knew

the habit would probably kill him someday; metals were poisonous if allowed to linger.

Zane simultaneously ignites Steel and Pewter. Anecdotal true, but basically all evidence in the books will be so.

 

 

That's what I managed to find from just a cursory look through Well of Ascension. I know there's more.

Edited August 27, 2014 by killersquirrel59

[Voidus]

If these actions activated in order rather than simultaneously, the Duralumin would burn out the Pewter before the flare could mean anything.

 

Duralumin doesn't burn metals instantly, it just vastly increases the rate of the burn, that's why you get the increased power, Vin frequently leaves Duralumin and another metal burning, and then takes an action, so it can't be instantaneous.

In book there are definitely frequent mentions of activating two metals at the same time. I do know that, I've read them about 7 million times But none of the characters has a sense of time on the planck scale so they wouldn't necessarily even know if they activated precisely simultaneously, and any difference in time even .000000000000000000001 of a second, would be enough for Aluminium to destroy metals or Duralumin to at least partially burn another metal.

[Voidus]

 

She didn't have a choice. Vin burned duralumin and flared her pewter. She flung her opponent's hands aside and smashed her head upward into his face.

 

This for instance, Vin starts burning Duralumin and then flings their hands aside and then smashes her head up. That would have taken at least 1-2 seconds which while not a long time allomantically it is still significantly longer than instantaneous.

[killersquirrel59]

We can't use anecdotal evidence to make assertions on the planck scale. That's why for the sake of this argument I was essentially saying that ε = 0. Everything we are asserting we have to judge in human time. I suppose the only way someone could ever tell for sure would be to burn Bronze while in a very powerful Bendalloy bubble (or while the subject is in a Cadmium bubble, either way works). Otherwise, at least on the scale of human perceptions where ε = 0, metals activate simultaneously.

 

Duralumin does hyperflare metals, burning them away incredibly quickly rather than truly instantly. However, we don't know that Aluminum does any differently. Again we only have evidence that Vin burned Aluminum and then her metal reserves were gone. We don't know that Aluminum burns away metals truly instantly either. Again, the only evidence is in human perception.

[Voidus]

Otherwise, at least on the scale of human perceptions where ε = 0, metals activate simultaneously.

 

For observational purposes perhaps but allomantically being close to zero is not the same as being zero, my point is that I find it incredibly unlikely that at the planck scale trying to burn two metals simultaneously would actually activate simultaneously.

If Aluminium were to burn things over time as Duralumin does then we would likely be told that the other metals faded or somesuch, it is only observational evidence but that's all we can really use for theories like this. Duralumin needs to have a time component because if it were truly instant then the power from the burn would be infinite, tin + Duralumin would destroy peoples minds, as would Bronze, the sensations would be quite literally infinite. Aluminium does not need that distinction.

But if for the sake of argument they were to both require time and both to activate precisely simultaneously then the result would be that the metals burn out faster than even normal Aluminium would do, but you would also for the barest instance still have Duralumin powered pewter.

[killersquirrel59]

For observational purposes perhaps but allomantically being close to zero is not the same as being zero, my point is that I find it incredibly unlikely that at the planck scale trying to burn two metals simultaneously would actually activate simultaneously.

If Aluminium were to burn things over time as Duralumin does then we would likely be told that the other metals faded or somesuch, it is only observational evidence but that's all we can really use for theories like this. Duralumin needs to have a time component because if it were truly instant then the power from the burn would be infinite, tin + Duralumin would destroy peoples minds, as would Bronze, the sensations would be quite literally infinite. Aluminium does not need that distinction.
But if for the sake of argument they were to both require time and both to activate precisely simultaneously then the result would be that the metals burn out faster than even normal Aluminium would do, but you would also for the barest instance still have Duralumin powered pewter.

 

Your logic doesn't make sense. Why would the power be infinite if the time for Duralumin was instant? This isn't an equation of power over time fading. If that were the case then ordinary burning of metals would decrease in power as the reserve burned. It doesn't. The power of Allomancy is an absolute. Duralumin enhances that absolute value by another absolute value based in the power of the Duralumin.

[Voidus]

 Why would the power be infinite if the time for Duralumin was instant?

 

The metals release a certain quantity of power X, normal burning will give normal allomantic power P per second from that burn, Flaring might burn 1.5 times faster, and will release 1.5 times the power, Duralumin burns metals a hundred times faster for a hundred times the power,the closer to instant the burn is the closer to infinite the power of the moment is.

If that were the case then ordinary burning of metals would decrease in power as the reserve burned.

 

No it wouldn't, there's a difference between the rate of the burn and the amount of metal stored.

[killersquirrel59]

Ok. I see what you're saying now. I don't agree, but I think I actually understand now.

 

The way I've seen it is not a question of x power over t time, but of x power for a normal burn or y power for a flare, both as separate absolutes accessed by performing different actions (burning or flaring) the metal. If it was a simple power over time function, then there would be more variance in the burn rates I think. But there isn't. There is burning, and there is flaring. That's it. Nothing in between. But if it was as you say, then burn rates would mean far less and be far more adjustable. Need a bit more power, burn it a little faster. Need it to last just a bit longer, turn down the heat a bit.

[Voidus]

Just because it's a power over time function doesn't mean allomancers have to be able to adjust their time of burn. 

[Edgedancer]

Well Duralminium works by rasing your burn-rate and the amount of Investure you can process. Aluminium negates/blocks the incomming Investure and dissolves your metal reserves.

Overall, I don´t think it really matters how fast the two metals work exactly, simply because the metals themself doesn´t hold the Investure. Unless Duralminium works a whole lot faster than Aluminium the process would look somethink like this (and excusse me for not using the most scientific terms):

Duralminium strenghtens the other metal´s "signal" to Preservation (or whatever source of Investure you are using) and Aluminium "blocks" the "signal." It doesn´t make a difference how strong your signal is, if you can´t access the Investure pool in the first place.

[killersquirrel59]

I think your analogy might be a bit off. If aluminum "blocked the signal" as you put it, it wouldn't burn up the metal reserves, just block their access while it was burning. Somehow, Aluminum actually either burns up the metal with no effect or changes it somehow to negate its power, leaving it as inert metal within the body. This second possibility is unlikely since it would leave metal reserves in the body, much of which is poisonous causing physical problems.

[Voidus]

I think your analogy might be a bit off. If aluminum "blocked the signal" as you put it, it wouldn't burn up the metal reserves, just block their access while it was burning. Somehow, Aluminum actually either burns up the metal with no effect or changes it somehow to negate its power, leaving it as inert metal within the body. This second possibility is unlikely since it would leave metal reserves in the body, much of which is poisonous causing physical problems.

It can also be used to destroy impurities I believe.

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Ha, that IS a little silly of a method. However, on the extreme end of aluminum, I have in the notes the possibility of cleansing the spirit of unwanted effects of other investitures. You'd get really good at this, and maybe even be able to cleanse the body of other impurities.

 

[Edgedancer]

I think your analogy might be a bit off. If aluminum "blocked the signal" as you put it, it wouldn't burn up the metal reserves, just block their access while it was burning. Somehow, Aluminum actually either burns up the metal with no effect or changes it somehow to negate its power, leaving it as inert metal within the body. This second possibility is unlikely since it would leave metal reserves in the body, much of which is poisonous causing physical problems.

The metal disapears from the body, which is pretty much the primary use for it. The only real difference is if it block the signal you send to Preservation, while still burning the metal, or blocks out the Investure it sends you, which given that Aluminium makes you immune to other magical effects is admittedly more likely but while those are two distinctly different processes in this case the effect on Duralminium is the same, though, so it doesn´t really matter for the question in the op.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Edgedancer

[BlackYeti]

The way I've seen it is not a question of x power over t time, but of x power for a normal burn or y power for a flare, both as separate absolutes accessed by performing different actions (burning or flaring) the metal. If it was a simple power over time function, then there would be more variance in the burn rates I think. But there isn't. There is burning, and there is flaring. That's it. Nothing in between. But if it was as you say, then burn rates would mean far less and be far more adjustable. Need a bit more power, burn it a little faster. Need it to last just a bit longer, turn down the heat a bit.

 

I don't think that this is correct. Consider atium: this is a metal that, unlike the base 16 metals, is the Investiture that powers it's associated ability. We know this by WoB:

 

Atium is, itself, a fuel. When you burn it, the metal itself provides the power.

http://brandonsanderson.com/annotation-mistborn-3-chapter-seventy-one/

 

We also know that atium can be flared like the other metals.

 

Elend burned the last of his atium, flaring it to life in his stomach.

The Hero of Ages, Gollancz 2010 edition, page 708

 

This means that the amount of power provided is the same, regardless of whether you are flaring the metal or not, and therefore it must be a function of power and time.

Edited August 27, 2014 by BlackYeti

[killersquirrel59]

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say Atium can be flared like other metals. He uses the words "flaring it to life" but there is no mention of any increased effect from doing so. No mention of getting any extra power, or even of reduced time. 

 

Also, I was saying that the power differential is based on the method of burning, not the rate of burning, and that the rate is a byproduct of the different method. That's why there are only two settings. Think of it like burning something by itself, or throwing lighter fluid on the fire. Only two options, not a temperature controlled gas stove.