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Rider of Storms

Calgary convention thus far

36 posts in this topic

These are great!

 

I especially enjoy the Wit question as many people have been theorizing those he showed interested in were proto-radiants. Turns out, he doesn't. Therefore, Wit's lack of interest on certain characters does not mean they aren't radiant material. Interesting.

 

I also love the one about the oaths. So there is a defined order, but the words themselves are not fixed. Good. I was wondering how one did find the precise wording for each one of those. Therefore, when theorizing about potential oaths, we basically need to think on the general meaning of the oaths and what sort of person we believe this Radiant must become instead of the exact words.

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So Wit has a lot of respect for Dalinar so he keeps honest.

Gives confidence to Renarin because he is always being ripped on.

Advises Shallan because she needs guidance.

 

 

Soooo he just screws with Kal for the fun of it??   ;)

Edited by WEZ313
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So Wit has a lot of respect for Dalinar so he keeps honest.

Gives confidence to Renarin because he is always being ripped on.

Advises Shallan because she needs guidance.

 

 

Soooo he just screws with Kal for the fun of it??   ;)

 

Or he thinks Kal needs some screwing around :ph34r: which is probably why he advices him to flirt with Shallan despite her being a lighteye just so he could spite Adolin :ph34r:

 

With Adolin, he is mostly teasing, generally expressing incredulity at the ridicule of his love life.

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Q: Syl gives Kaladin the choice to have any number of weapons or a shield. Pattern can be equally a sword or a small knife. Are spren limited to being items of war or could they be put to other uses? Could the surge binders less geared toward battle use their spren to make ladders, rope, etc?

A: No, this is not restricted to articles of war. [so Shardrope could totally be a thing.]

 

 

Hmm.... Sounds like fabrials...

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Q: Is the order of the Ideals fixed? E.g. does Kaladin have to say the Windrunner Ideals in a specific order, or are they situation-specific?

A: Yes, the sequence is fixed. The oaths for each order are essentially a progression of understanding of the kind of person that each Order of Knights Radiant is trying to produce. The specific wording of each Ideal is not fixed, but the overall idea of each Ideal, and the order in which they are spoken, is.

This works with the third oath of windrunners only because it's natural progression from the 2nd. But if 4th oath is not a progression from 3rd but a branching progression from 4th, it doesn't work. Say if 4th oath is 'I'll not protect someone if they're wrong just because I like them' (a little silly I know, but I'm just trying to come up with something that'll show that both 3rd & 4th can follow 2nd oath, in stead of 4th following the 3rd) then rigid nature of order of Ideals to be spoken will actually require that Kal must experience life in such order that he understands & speaks ideals in required order. Brandon will likely take care of that in story, but I'm still not sold on that idea, because realistically speaking one can't determine the order in which what life experiences one can have, so the Knight in training might get stuck at a particular oath. Again, I'm saying Brandon will come up with oaths that'll work, but if it was a real world & KR were real, this requirement of speaking oaths in particular order doesn't make sense.

Q: Syl gives Kaladin the choice to have any number of weapons or a shield. Pattern can be equally a sword or a small knife. Are spren limited to being items of war or could they be put to other uses? Could the surge binders less geared toward battle use their spren to make ladders, rope, etc?

A: No, this is not restricted to articles of war. [so Shardrope could totally be a thing.]

Well what do you know, Lightflame will be dancing to know Lift can have a shardfork. Lol..

Anyway thanks Jeremy.

Edited by harry31j97
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This works with the third oath of windrunners only because it's natural progression from the 2nd. But if 4th oath is not a progression from 3rd but a branching progression from 4th, it doesn't work. Say if 4th oath is 'I'll not protect someone if they're wrong just because I like them' (a little silly I know, but I'm just trying to come up with something that'll show that both 3rd & 4th can follow 2nd oath, in stead of 4th following the 3rd) then rigid nature of order of Ideals to be spoken will actually require that Kal must experience life in such order that he understands & speaks ideals in required order. Brandon will likely take care of that in story, but I'm still not sold on that idea, because realistically speaking one can't determine the order in which what life experiences one can have, so the Knight in training might get stuck at a particular oath. Again, I'm saying Brandon will come up with oaths that'll work, but if it was a real world & KR were real, this requirement of speaking oaths in particular order doesn't make sense.

 

You have to learn to walk before learning how to run... Windrunners have to learn how to protect before learning how to lead, just like Lightweavers have to learn to be creative before learning to be honest, Bondsmiths have to learn to be pious before learning how to be guiding, etc. I think it is the natural progression for Kal to figure out how to protect people who he is not attached to: people who need it, people he hates as opposed to just his friends. The next step is learning how to lead them, how to be an example for the, how to inspire people to become better.

 

I believe the order does make sense. Each individual's personal experience may be different, but a Windrunner can't be an effective leader until it learns how to protect people, all the people, just like Dalinar could never guide others before learning how to pious himself, how to be the example.

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You have to learn to walk before learning how to run... Windrunners have to learn how to protect before learning how to lead, just like Lightweavers have to learn to be creative before learning to be honest, Bondsmiths have to learn to be pious before learning how to be guiding, etc. I think it is the natural progression for Kal to figure out how to protect people who he is not attached to: people who need it, people he hates as opposed to just his friends. The next step is learning how to lead them, how to be an example for the, how to inspire people to become better.

I believe the order does make sense. Each individual's personal experience may be different, but a Windrunner can't be an effective leader until it learns how to protect people, all the people, just like Dalinar could never guide others before learning how to pious himself, how to be the example.

But that's what I'm saying. 3rd oath is 'I'll protect even those I don't like as long as it's right'. It's a natural progression from 'I'll protect those who can't protect themselves'. Whatever next oath is, you're saying Kal has to understand 3rd to proceed & that's fine for him, because it was very convenient that one of the persons he hated just happened to be under threat of assassination. You honestly can't say that every windrunner will just have that one person lying around him, that he hates, needing his protection. So if there is a fixed order of Ideals, should that windrunner be stuck on level two & not progress to next level if none of the person he dislikes is under threat?(Or there aren't that many dislikeable persons around him? Even if he has ,hypothetically speaking, the experience necessary to say the 4th oath? To progress to next level in bond then, he'd have to actively hunt for the experience to say 3rd oath. In short it shouldn't matter what oath to say in what order, because life isn't going to conveniently provide experiences in the order that you need to say the oaths.

Edit: I should say this will likely matter very less in the actual novels of SA as there's likely to be details of each order from point of view of only one knight of that order. But Brandon is known for solid background & this seems like a weak link to me.

Edited by harry31j97
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I think that the first oath is the standard one, the second and third relate to the first attribute, and the last two correlate to the second attribute each order has. That's what I've thought.

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I think that the first oath is the standard one, the second and third relate to the first attribute, and the last two correlate to the second attribute each order has. That's what I've thought.

 

This is - or at least was - a popular interpretation. Knowing how flexible the Immortal Words are, I no longer think you can make this into a rule that applies to all of the Orders. It applies to Kaladin, but doesn't work for Shallan - the two Truths / Ideals she speaks are effectively her Third and Fourth Ideals (after the Life/Strength/Journey one the one she must have spoken before blocking Pattern out of her memory), and both of them are undeniably about honesty. 

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But that's what I'm saying. 3rd oath is 'I'll protect even those I don't like as long as it's right'. It's a natural progression from 'I'll protect those who can't protect themselves'. Whatever next oath is, you're saying Kal has to understand 3rd to proceed & that's fine for him, because it was very convenient that one of the persons he hated just happened to be under threat of assassination. You honestly can't say that every windrunner will just have that one person lying around him, that he hates, needing his protection. So if there is a fixed order of Ideals, should that windrunner be stuck on level two & not progress to next level if none of the person he dislikes is under threat?(Or there aren't that many dislikeable persons around him? Even if he has ,hypothetically speaking, the experience necessary to say the 4th oath? To progress to next level in bond then, he'd have to actively hunt for the experience to say 3rd oath. In short it shouldn't matter what oath to say in what order, because life isn't going to conveniently provide experiences in the order that you need to say the oaths.

Edit: I should say this will likely matter very less in the actual novels of SA as there's likely to be details of each order from point of view of only one knight of that order. But Brandon is known for solid background & this seems like a weak link to me.

 

I do not think you need to rescue a person you hate from a direct threat in order to understand the third oath. Kaladin was given a rather tragic example... He broke his bond over the third oath and only manage to re-kinked it at the last minute. I doubt all Windrunners need to live through a similar chain of events to progress into their Radianhood just like I do not think all Radiants need to have experience the tragedies of Kal/Shallan childhoods to prove their worth.

 

I you are bound to protect people, it is logic you first seek to protect those you love. You need not make an oath for that. Second, you learn to protect those who are helpless. From there, it is logical you learn to protect people you do not like, hate even, as long as it is right. I feel, it is the natural progression for the "protection" attribute.

 

I believe all Windrunners will come through the oaths in their own way, but they do need to understand the responsibility involve by the protection attribute.

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Q: Syl gives Kaladin the choice to have any number of weapons or a shield. Pattern can be equally a sword or a small knife. Are spren limited to being items of war or could they be put to other uses? Could the surge binders less geared toward battle use their spren to make ladders, rope, etc?

A: No, this is not restricted to articles of war. [so Shardrope could totally be a thing.]

 

This seems pretty crazy powerful to me. Essentially ANY useful item that you happen to need at the moment, you have. If Kaladin/Shallan realize that, watch out!

 

Or worse yet, Lift...

 

I find the idea that someone can accidentally worldhop rather...fascinating,

 

I would think that you could just fall in a shardpool accidentally, although who knows where you'd end up without specific intent.

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