Ryan is re-reading the WoT

[Ryan]

I'm reading the wheel of time for the third time in preparation for the release of AMoL. I want to talk about things I notice, but I don't want to tweet spoilers. So, here I am. Fair warning, expect this thread to contain spoilers for the entire series.

I started with New Spring. I don't really have anything to say about the experience of reading it again (this is my second time through that particular book).

Now, I'm about a quarter into The Eye of the World. Things I've noticed so far:

When Moiraine heals Tam, Rand totally gets the goosebumps on his arms. Not sure if that means he had already touched Saidin at some point in the past or not.

I'm noticing a bit more of what people are talking about when they say the early books do foreshadowing for the entire series. For example, after Moiraine helps Egwene touch Saidar, she tells her she has the potential to reach the Amyrlin Seat. Or when they're running from Trollocs with catchpoles, Mat is the only one that gets a noose around his neck. (I think there was another reference to the hanging, but I can't recall it right now.) Lan and Nynaeve's romance was totally set up from the first time they meet.

In the first Ba'alzamon dream, Ishamael tells Rand that he was the one who caused Artur Hawkwing's army to be sent across the sea, and that by so doing, sealed two dooms: that of his empire, and one still to come. The doom still to come obviously refers to the Seanchan invasion, though that has not come to "doom" quite yet, if it ever will. But, if Aviendha's vision in Towers of Midnight unfolds as seen, the Seanchan are the doom of Aiel and Aes Sedai both.

I find it striking that, even with only one book left in the series, we still don't know what a bunch of Min's first viewings mean.

[Songstress]

Oh yay! I adore first read/reread commentary and blogs! I'm saving my next re-read for spring/summer so I'll finish closer to the AMOL release... plus I'm currently re-reading Way of Kings and have a stack of paperbacks that are awaiting a first read (including the first books in both the Malazan Book of the Fallen and the Codex Alera series). But I will totally follow along if you post your thoughts on your WoT readthrough!

[Eerongal]

ive been listening to these in audiobook slowly (over the past year or so) in anticipation of the final book, and I totally agree that going back, i notice SO much foreshadowing of things to come. I'm up to The Path of Daggers, and totally not looking forward to the whole "kidnapped Faile" thing...

[CrazyRioter]

I'm going to start a re-read soon. Since it's been ages since I read them all through.

[Cheese Ninja]

Same here, I read the first 6 or 7 books at least 4 or 5 times, so I still remember most of what happened there. Started reading it back when I was 11 or 12. I never actually read the full version of New Spring, so that's another thing I'll have to do.

The whole reason I started reading Sanderson was because I heard he was finishing WoT.

[Ryan]

Just read the shadar logoth sequence. This is the part where everything goes south for poor Moiraine and Lan. Having read New Spring and therefore knowing that she has spent her whole adult life searching for one of these three boys...then watching her calmly leave them on their own with Mashadar closing in and Trollocs in pursuit...well. The woman has iron nerves. Or is just really good at faking them, better than most any other Aes Sedai in the book.

I wonder if any significance can be attached to What Morreth told the three ta'veren before he disappeared. "You are all dead." Did he just mean that he thought they were going to die? Or could it be that he sensed that they are incarnations of strong souls from years past?

Lastly, Rand has a nightmare after the encounter with Mordeth where someone is chasing him shouting "I only want your hand!" More foreshadowing.

[Eerongal]

The woman has iron nerves. Or is just really good at faking them, better than most any other Aes Sedai in the book.

actually, in going through it again, ive noticed a bit of a trend. As the main PoV characters come further into the story, they seem to be able to read Aes Sedai better and better. At the very beginning, when they were just dumb country bumpkins and Aes Sedai were a thing of marvel, all Aes Sedai always seemed to be all cool composure. Where as later in the series, you get parts where they're like "obvious fury hidden behind that calm face", so this may very well be an extension of this. If this scene was redone from the PoV of Rand/Perrin/Mat/Egwene/Whoever from like book 11, we probably would have a better view into Moiraine's feelings on the matter than we did back then.

[Cheese Ninja]

Funny that you mentioned the Shadar Logoth sequence. Originally I didn't have the full Eye of the World book, just the free sample paperback (I doubt many of you have seen that which I speak of, it came out some time after Lord of Chaos, I believe, to trap people into reading the series.) that ends with the chapter right before they enter Shadar Logoth, when they are being chased by Trollocs. Hell of a place to leave off, I don't think I spent too long before getting the full copy either from the bookstore or library and finishing it.

[Ryan]

actually, in going through it again, ive noticed a bit of a trend. As the main PoV characters come further into the story, they seem to be able to read Aes Sedai better and better. At the very beginning, when they were just dumb country bumpkins and Aes Sedai were a thing of marvel, all Aes Sedai always seemed to be all cool composure. Where as later in the series, you get parts where they're like "obvious fury hidden behind that calm face", so this may very well be an extension of this. If this scene was redone from the PoV of Rand/Perrin/Mat/Egwene/Whoever from like book 11, we probably would have a better view into Moiraine's feelings on the matter than we did back then.

Likely true. I think of all the times in New Spring where Moiraine's serenity is just a mask. And about how, when she's disposing of the bodies of the slain at the end, he calls her "a hard woman"; but then, once she bonds him, he can see how knotted up her emotions actually were and immediately tries to comfort her.

Even still, it takes nerves of steel to do what she did in the way she did it. The fact that she was likely faking serenity only makes her tougher.

Funny that you mentioned the Shadar Logoth sequence. Originally I didn't have the full Eye of the World book, just the free sample paperback (I doubt many of you have seen that which I speak of, it came out some time after Lord of Chaos, I believe, to trap people into reading the series.) that ends with the chapter right before they enter Shadar Logoth, when they are being chased by Trollocs. Hell of a place to leave off, I don't think I spent too long before getting the full copy either from the bookstore or library and finishing it.

...and then once you get the book, you realize that immediately after Shadar Logoth comes The Eternal Walk to Caemlyn, the dullest section of the whole book.

That's where I am now. I'm not really looking forward to it. So, more observations!

When Perrin and Egwene meet Elyas, he laughingly tells them they're headed for the Waste and how little they'd like it there. It made me smile since Eqwene winds up staying there longer than any other character and liking it.

Speaking of Egwene and Perrin, leadership is first thrust upon Perrin during this sequence, and he whines about it just as much now as he does during every book up to TofM. No wonder everyone gets tired of it. He spent 12 books getting over that hurdle. Seems a little silly.

Last bit on P/E, when they're with the tinkers, we get the strongest glimmer that Perrin is ta'veren we've yet seen: Elyas' premonition that they have to stay with the wagon train. Oh, sure, there have been other times, but always they are faint hints. This is as much as a beacon for those who know to look for it.

To close, an observation on Rand. His second use of Saidin, when he moved the boom to hit the Trolloc off the ship: he wasn't looking at the boom at all; his gaze was fixed on the Trolloc. How'd he move the boom without looking at it (since you need to see in order to weave)?

[Cheese Ninja]

It's possible RJ didn't have that particular aspect of channeling fleshed out yet, there's several things in the first books which don't make as much sense once the mechanics of channeling and the World of Dreams are laid out.

[fiveAM]

To close, an observation on Rand. His second use of Saidin, when he moved the boom to hit the Trolloc off the ship: he wasn't looking at the boom at all; his gaze was fixed on the Trolloc. How'd he move the boom without looking at it (since you need to see in order to weave)?

Isn't there a mention of forced habits for channeling by the Wise Ones when we see the Wise Ones training and create that huge fireball? Or it might have been mentioned to Nynaeve when she first starts learning to channel at the Tower, I forget exactly. But it goes along the lines of how its actually not necessary to "fling" a fireball by swinging your arm. However, that's how people learned it and they associated it in their minds as a necessary component and from then they couldn't throw the fireball without making the motion. Similar idea to the channeling blocks (Nynaeve only being able to channel when angry).

Rand wasn't trained at that point so it's possible he didn't have any channeling habits back then. Also, it wasn't a conscious weave of his so that might have something to do with it.

Edited January 10, 2012 by fiveAM

[Ryan]

Since I last posted, I have finished TEotW and am 200 pages into TGH. <Peter Parker Voice>I've been...busy.</Peter Parker Voice> So, fair warning, this might be kinda long.

First, I enjoyed The Eternal Walk to Caemlyn far more this time through than I ever have. I think it's because I'm finally able to appreciate what Jordan pulled off with it.

Take Perrin. The part where he kills the Whitecloaks is incredibly complex, both from a moral standpoint and a character standpoint. If that case were brought before a court of law, and you were sitting on the jury, how would you rule? Because, from the Whitecloaks' point of view, the attack is entirely unprovoked. However, Perrin could make a very sound self-defense argument, and also a momentary insanity plea. I want to say the attack was justified, but then there's a little voice in the back of my mind that says it's just because I like Perrin and don't like Whitecloaks.

Regardless, the fact that the book is making me think and feel any of these things is astounding in and of itself.

Then there's Rand and Mat. I never liked their stretch of this arc. But now I've come to realize that maybe that's because it's just plain depressing. RJ really conveyed the sense of hopelessness and desperation the characters were feeling, and I can appreciate that.

Now, the bit where Nynaeve participates in the rescue of Perrin and Egwene is the first time she gets to be awesome. Nynaeve has gone from one of my least favorite characters to one of the best, and it wasn't until book 12 that I really came around. Now I can look past her unfortunate personality in the early books to all the crazy awesome stuff she does.

I had to laugh when Gawyn told Rand that Elayne ought to pick a husband from the Two Rivers. Heh. Hehehe.

After the whole gang was reunited and started for the Blight via the Ways, I came to realize that Moiraine is the best - the very best - of the Aes Sedai (and Lan is the best of the Warders). If all Aes Sedai had been, and were, and ever would be like unto Moiraine, the series would be a lot shorter on a account of not having all the petty squabbling that mires the middle books.

I'm looking forward to the final book, when maybe, just maybe, we'll finally figure out just what exactly is up with the voice that Rand hears in Tarwin's Gap.

To close out my thoughts on the first book, I'll mention that Ba'alzamon said something along the lines of "this time around feels different. Now change rides on the winds of time." Also, there's the dark prophecy on the walls of Fal Dara Keep at the beginning of TGH, which mentions the Time of Change. There are other hints and references all over that point to this being a special time, even amongst all the repetitious turning of the Wheel. AMoL will tell, but gosh I hope so.

As for the beginning of TGH, well, I'm not a huge fan. Rand pushing his friends away is just painful to watch. It's a case of the phenomenon that plagues so many of the interactions in the WoT, where most of the drama could be averted if the characters would just talk to each other.

Sigh.

Anyway, the bit in the village where Rand goes in a house and the same two paragraphs get repeated about 4 times, ending with Rand seizing Saidin to kill an imagined horde of flies...man, it's seriously creepy. I'd forgotten about it, and I'm not sure what's going on, except to say that I suspect Lanfear is manipulating Rand, trying to create situations that would push him to channel.

That's all for now, folks!

[KChan]

Wow, I'm really enjoying this. It's reminding me of a lot of the things in the series that you tend to forget 12 books later. Good stuff, Ryan! Keep it up!

[nikomis]

...and then once you get the book, you realize that immediately after Shadar Logoth comes The Eternal Walk to Caemlyn, the dullest section of the whole book.

Ooh, you mean the second that has the scarf scene twice word for word? Worst flashback ever. I noticed it and just figured I was misremembering something, or it was a flashback, but never went back to look at it, then my wife commented on it too. Apparently it's a big thing in that book.

[Ryan]

More comment time!

It's weird reading this book knowing who the darkfriends are. Knowing, for example, that Ingtar and Liandrin both were at the darkfest in the prologue. Or that Sheriam is a darkfriend. Or seeing Alviarin in passing on Egwene and Nynave's voyage to Tar Valon (I had no idea Alviarin was introduced so early). Or Verin! Especially Verin, considering she is actually something of a double agent.

The crossbow bolt that grazes the Amyrlin is a bit of a mystery. As far as I recall, we never get any closure on that. Rand assumes it was intended for him, but that doesn't make a great deal of sense. Team Dark has a huge number of chances to kill Rand in this book, considering that he's riding with Ingtar, and spends a large amount of time in the company of Lanfear. Though, okay, Lanfear has her own agenda for Rand that has nothing to do with what the Dark One wants.

I think it's pretty funny how Egwene worries about the rigors of novice life in the White Tower after witnessing Nynaeve's treatment at the hands of the Amyrlin, saying that if that's how things are, she didn't think she could make it. Hah. Poor Egwene gets put through more crap in these books than anyone besides Rand, what with being made damane, then training with Aiel, then being made a puppet Amyrlin in the rebel camp, then being tortured at Elaida's hands, culminating in her triumphant ascension to Amyrlin in truth. She weathers it all beautifully, and everything that doesn't kill her makes her stronger. She's almost superhumanly mentally resilient and strong of will.

Nynaeve's test for Accepted is interesting. The way she alters things inside the ter'angreal points to tel'aran'rhiod (I *think* I spelled that right...maybe). That wouldn't explain why women who go in warded and channel get burned out, or how Nynaeve is able to beat the system (aside from her general awesomeness).

We get three more Min viewings, and we know what all of them mean. Elayne is going to be one of Rand's 3 wives (and Rand will get his hand burnt off), Galad is a righteous prick, and Egwene will become the Amyrlin.

Now, Cairhein and the Great Game. I quote from Isam's WoT summary, which is no longer with us, but is thankfully preserved in the wayback machine (http://web.archive.org/web/20080515201024/http://meikon.homeip.net/extras/Wheel_of_Time-Summaries/ ):

Rand: I don't what to play your Great Game!

Cairheinin: Oooo, he's good!

This book is more complex than TEotW, with more plot threads happening in diverse parts of the world, but Jordan is still able to pull them all back together at the end. I think book 4 is the last book where that happens...

[Ryan]

I just finished TGH. It's got one of my favorite ending climaxes in the series. Not necessarily Rand's showdown with Ishamael, which is a bit of a letdown, but his showdown with Turak, and Nynaeve awesomely rescuing Egwene (she had Min and Elayne, but she did all the work). It still hurts to watch Egwene be a damane, even my third time through.

I gotta feel a little sorry for Rand at the end, when Moiraine tells him that basically everywhere he goes, he will cause upheaval just by being there. Thom's girlfriend Dena would not have died if he'd never showed up, which let to Thom killing the king, which led to the war of succession. And he literally didn't do anything except sit in an inn for a few days.

I don't have much more to say besides that. Next I will start into my least favorite of the early books, The Dragon Reborn. I will have the awesomeness of The Shadow Rising to look forward to, and that will keep me going as a plod through it.

[fiveAM]

I just finished TGH. It's got one of my favorite ending climaxes in the series. Not necessarily Rand's showdown with Ishamael, which is a bit of a letdown, but his showdown with Turak, and Nynaeve awesomely rescuing Egwene (she had Min and Elayne, but she did all the work). It still hurts to watch Egwene be a damane, even my third time through.

I gotta feel a little sorry for Rand at the end, when Moiraine tells him that basically everywhere he goes, he will cause upheaval just by being there. Thom's girlfriend Dena would not have died if he'd never showed up, which let to Thom killing the king, which led to the war of succession. And he literally didn't do anything except sit in an inn for a few days.

I don't have much more to say besides that. Next I will start into my least favorite of the early books, The Dragon Reborn. I will have the awesomeness of The Shadow Rising to look forward to, and that will keep me going as a plod through it.

I agree with you on the Turak scene and on The Dragon Reborn. I'm about half way through that one right now, and it's as difficult to go through as i remember.

I don't believe it's ever been confirmed that Thom killed the King has it? Sure, it's a prominent theory but from what i can remember, nothing in the books ever confirm that, just shrouded in mystery. I don't know if there is an interview where Jordan confirms/denies it but somehow, I've always thought of it as a work of some Darkfriends (if this happened in The Lord of Chaos I would definitely say it was a Darkfriend but not...).

[Ryan]

I don't believe it's ever been confirmed that Thom killed the King has it?

Meh. He totally did it. Search your heart; you know it for true.

[nikomis]

I had better speed it up, before you overtake me. I'm still on my first readthrough.

[Ryan]

I wouldn't worry too much. I plan to slow it down after I'm done with TSR. Don't want to finish too long before the release of AMoL, and there are plenty of other books that I want to read. (BTW, if this is your first read through, what are you doing in here? I'm spoiling stuff in the entire series here, not just the books I've read up to.)

Anyway, I have been reading on "The Dragon Reborn". I pushed through the sucky beginning, with Perrin whining continuously about the superhuman senses and miraculous ability to communicate telepathically with wolves. Oh, and who flipped Rand's crazy switch? Between the end of TGH, where he was showing only the barest beginnings of a split personality, to the start of TDR, Rand became super moody. And what is with Moiraine? Her "guidance" amounts to "let's not do anything, because doing stuff is *scary*." Rather out of character for the woman with gonads of steel that we came to love in the first book.

Getting through the beginning, we come to a long section of the girls in the Tower. And, well, I actually quite like the Tower training sequences. I always have. I find the "hunt" for the Black Ajah less enjoyable, if only because they fail so spectacularly to make any difference at all. They even fail to follow up on Sheriam's suspicious behavior WRT the Gray Man. Come on, Nynaeve even notes it, and then they never do anything else about it. She is actually Black Ajah! She was probably the one who took the crossbow bolt! *sigh*

Then there's Lanfear, whose actions are quite baffling. I don't get what she's working towards, at all. We know she loves Lews Therin, and that she's marching to her own tune more than serving the Dark One's agenda, but beyond that she's still a mystery, even now. I think Lanfear is going to be especially important in the last book (due to the ending of TofM), so it's frustrating that I can't suss out This post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rules she's actually doing, even having read 13 books.

At least we haven't had any other viewings and/or dreams that haven't yet come true.

Egwene's Accepted test is interesting, in that all three scenarios were laid out as possibilities when Rand used the Portal stone in TGH. Egwene his wife; Egwene stabbing him with a knife, and him thanking her; Egwene the Amyrlin and gentling him. Only, instead of Egwene doing all these things, she refuses. Also, the resonance with the twisted stone ter'angreal pretty much proves that the test arches create scenarios in tel'aran'rhiod.

There are also some references to things that did actually come to pass. The "great purge", for one, and that one is thanks to Verin.

It was oddly...satisfying to watch Gawyn and Galad get beat down by a sickly Mat with a quarterstaff. They cause such irritation in later books.

Beyond that, I will just comment that for a book titled "The Dragon Reborn", there has been, and will be, very little of Rand in the book until the very end. Maybe that's why I like it the least of the early books? There is a lot to like here. For one thing, Mat's first viewpoints, and a lot of cool Tower training. Very little Dragon Reborn, though.

[nikomis]

I wouldn't worry too much. I plan to slow it down after I'm done with TSR. Don't want to finish too long before the release of AMoL, and there are plenty of other books that I want to read. (BTW, if this is your first read through, what are you doing in here? I'm spoiling stuff in the entire series here, not just the books I've read up to.)

Because Books 1-9 were spoiled for me a decade ago before I even started, and I roleplayed on a WoT MUD back then without having read the books.

Effectively, I know a lot of the major details ahead of time, but I'm enjoying catching the little interactions.

[Ryan]

I have finished the penultimate chapter of TDR. There's a lot of material that I have yet to comment on. That's in part because I haven't had much to say. So, this post will be a bit sparse. And mostly it will be full of griping.

First, I will comment on the introduction of Fail. (There is no "e" on the end of her name. I don't know what you're talking about.) Fail is annoying. And while she is mostly good for Perrin, her disappearance in later books brings out the darkest parts of him.

Mat is interesting. His transformation from an ignorant farmboy into a man of the world feels too rapid to me. And his prowess with the quarterstaff literally came out of nowhere. Where was *that* during the first book? And while I'm at it, I may as well comment on Perrin's mysteriously-acquired fighting prowess. It makes no sense that he would go from having no experience to being able to best a Myrddraal, or a dozen Whitecloaks, without ever practicing. Honestly, Rand's progression is the only one that makes any sense. He at least trained, and he is the only one that fights realistically based on the amount of experience he has.

And speaking of mysteriously-acquired prowess, I'm not a fan of the "One Power Instinct". Nynaeve, Elayne, Egwene, and yes, Rand accomplish entirely too much on instinct alone. It's almost as if Jordan wants to have his inexperienced characters do awesome things that they have no right to, so he invented this concept of Power Instinct to explain it. In the case of fighting prowess, he doesn't even bother to try and justify it.

The result is that the Aes Sedai who had to actually work for their abilities look incompetent. The Forsaken look incompetent. Shoot, Ishamael looks most incompetent of all. How could he possibly have failed to kill Rand? I mean, he only had three chances, and Rand has no experience. Ishamael has 3000 years of experience and access to the True Power. It is inconceivable that Rand should win against that, especially as easily as he does.

Enough of that. A lot of characters get minimal introductions here that become later on. Every Aiel, I'm looking at you. Not to mention Juilin Sandar. I'm noticing that this is a theme in these books. It is impossible to say which incidental character will become important later, and which are just one-offs.

My final frustration centers on Moiraine. She looks incompetent and hypocritical in this book. Hypocritical, because she demands that everyone tell her everything, which she picks and chooses what to tell others. Incompetent, because she can't keep up with the Pattern, but tries to pretend that she is in control anyway. That is, of course, a general failing of Aes Sedai: a refusal to acknowledge any failing on their part, resulting in them looking like a clown. I expect better from Moiraine. We get better, in later books. Perhaps she grows as a result of the events of this book? It's hard to see her growth because she gets no viewpoints, but looking closely, it is there.

I'm excited to start The Shadow Rising. I love that book so much.

[Ryan]

I've been reading TSR. Like, a lot. I'm about 2/3rds of the way through. As I've said before (maybe not in this thread, but in another): TSR is my favorite book, and even though it's the longest, it reads like one of the shortest.

Let's start with the beginning. TSR is odd in the series in that it's the only one that starts with chapter 1 and not a prologue. But, here's the funny thing: TSR's "chapter 1" reads exactly like every other prologue in the series (except perhaps the first, which is special). And the other funny thing: chapter 2 begins with the wind, but without context. You get the tail end of a wind scene that obviously got chopped off when it was decided not to have a prologue.

It's not a very well-done edit. The seams where they cut and transplanted are still visible. I'm curious as to why it was done. Did the prologue fall out of favor in the publishing world for a bit?

Anyway, the prologue chapter 1 is a solid reminder that the world is not divided into good people and darkfriends. Case in point: Elaida. Completely on the side of the light, and working very hard to ensure the Last Battle is won. But she's completely, monumentally, disastrously wrong about how this is to be done. Also: more than a little crazy.

Or take Dain Bornhald. Putting aside that he's a whitecloak and thus, by definition, not quite right in the head: he wants good things (justice, the eradication of darkfriends). He's just tremendously misinformed and plain blind stupid.

Moving on, the beginning of this book is quite slow. Dull, even. I think it had to be this way because of the book's structure. All of the characters had to decide to depart the Stone in three different directions, which means a lot of thinking and talking and not a lot of doing. Also, Jordan has to repeat his lengthy and detailed Setting of the Scene three times over. But the end result is worth it. Three stellar plotlines, far flung and far removed from each other, each with multiple climaxes of its own.

The Shadow Rising is actually a lot like three books in one. What if Jordan had written them sequentially instead of cramming them together? Would that have been better? I want to say no, but I also kinda want to say yes too.

Anyway, Rhuidean is epic as always, but surprisingly, it's Perrin's story that I have enjoyed most on this read through. Fail is an apocalyptic dingleberry, of course, but the Scouring of the Shire Two Rivers is such a deceptively complex bit of storytelling. You've got the Whitecloaks, and Padan Fain, and Slayer/Luc/Isam (Slucisam?), all with their own goals, and into it steps Perrin, reluctant leader, Wolfbrother, ta'veren; and he totally kicks everyone's butt. Even Fail's.

The other character whose development I'm watching closely is Egwene. I am a little impatient with the Wise Ones' slow pace of instruction WRT tel'aran'rhiod. I mean, everyone says it's dangerous, but it's not often shown to be all that dangerous. The main characters blunder about in it all the time with no ill effects at all.

And speaking of the wolf dream, Perrin thinks offhandedly to himself at one point that he might like to live there when he dies, like a wolf. Foreshadowing that he is going to be bound to the Wheel and the Horn? Man I hope so.

Anyway, right now Trollocs are attacking Emond's Field. Gotta go read before I go to bed.