Theory: Killing chasmfiends release odium-sprens and rush the return of voidbringers?

[dyring]

Now, just reread some parts of Wor

 

Firstly, the description of the chasmfiend by Kaladin and Shallan:

 

 

 

that face was like something from a nightmare. Evil, powerful, almost intelligent. "those spren," shallan whispered, so soft he could barely hear. "I´ve seen those..."

 

There are also mentions about how the chasmfiend is wrong. Is that why there are some simularities betweem chasmfiends and thunderclasts, I know there was(now proven wrong) theories of chasmfiends being thunderclasts earlier. The same sprens bring them to life(or grow them bigger, in the case of chasmfiends)?

 

Brandon have mentioned that the current slaughter of chasmfiends will have great repercussions on a larger scale. Have it freed a large amount of odium-sprens?

 

Now, I would compare the desciptions of the arrow-sprens... but I dont have the time right now, so Im leaving that for those of you who are more fanatic then me;)

Edited July 30, 2014 by dyring

[maxal]

Are you implying the mass-massacre of the chasmfields have release the arrow-head sprens we saw floating around Elhokar?

 

 

Interesting.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

I love this idea...

 

The culling of the chasmfiends has lead to the mass release of odium spren, which were found by Venli's scholars, which lead them to the stormspren, which brought about the Everstorm... stupid ignorant greedy Alethi!

 

If that ends up being the true progression, I would interpret that as some commentary on Brandon's side about humanity's misuse of natrual resources. Though, even without that as the progression, I read some of that commentary in tWoK/WoR anyway. 

[Observer]

Is there really any indication whatsoever that those spren are evil in any way? They hold chasmfiends and other large greatshells together so that Roshar's gravity doesn't destroy them via square-cube law, and haven't been shown doing anything beyond that. Is there anything in WoK or WoR that indicates that these things are evil beyond their company? I have no idea what maxal is talking about, but hanging around Elhokar isn't exactly evil behavior either. Cryptics hang around the king too, and only a few people are calling those things evil.

 

So yeah. What am I missing here? Because with what I know, which is admittedly lacking, there isn't really anything to support this at all.

[maxal]

Is there really any indication whatsoever that those spren are evil in any way? They hold chasmfiends and other large greatshells together so that Roshar's gravity doesn't destroy them via square-cube law, and haven't been shown doing anything beyond that. Is there anything in WoK or WoR that indicates that these things are evil beyond their company? I have no idea what maxal is talking about, but hanging around Elhokar isn't exactly evil behavior either. Cryptics hang around the king too, and only a few people are calling those things evil.

 

So yeah. What am I missing here? Because with what I know, which is admittedly lacking, there isn't really anything to support this at all.

 

We don't know it is cryptics that hang around Elhokar. It is just a supposition or maybe I am missing a part of the canon? I myself would find doubtful cryptics would interest themselves in Elhokar as he was not depicted with having any artistic talent of any sort.

[Observer]

He mentions somewhere in Way of Kings that he sees things with twisted symbol faces in the mirrors. They seem to have since lost interest in him, or are afraid of Kaladin. I'll go look for the quote.

 

EDIT: A Chasmfiend is literally an impossibly large monstrosity with a bulbous, twisted body and a malicious emerald intent gleaming in its eyes as it malevolently hunts you down. If that doesn't make you note it down as "wrong and evil" I'm not sure what will.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Observer

[dyring]

Observer:

 

It is thin yeah, but there are some things indicating those sprens are very bad news.

 

Dont have the book here now, but read the scene where they look at the chasmfiend. Brandon makes it very clear that something is really wrong about the chasmfiends, something making them evil, intelligen almost. And while it doesent say right out that its the sprens... its very strongly hinted at it.

 

I feel very confident in saying that those are odiumsprens, less confident about the rest, but still. There is something about it.

[lyht]

He mentions somewhere in Way of Kings that he sees things with twisted symbol faces in the mirrors. They seem to have since lost interest in him, or are afraid of Kaladin. I'll go look for the quote.

Page 968 (end of chapter 80) in Words of Radients. Elokar calls them Shadows. I thought they were cryptics also.

[Observer]

“I see their faces in mirrors. Symbols, twisted, inhuman”

There. Sounds like a cryptic to me.

[dyring]

I am unsure why you thought I meant those thou.

 

The arrow sprens for me, as noted, I dont have my books here, but werent thunderclasts described as arrowshaped in some way(faces?)

 

Thats where Im heading to, not to Elhokars sprens.

 

Basically

 

Do you agree that the sprens around the chasmfiend seem odiumish? If not, your not going to agree on this subject;).

If you do however, it is not that great a stretch to think a whole bunch of freed/unoccupied odiumsprens around suddenly will be a problem somehow. Add that Brandon have mentioned that the culling of the chasmfiend population will have large repercussions, and there is a possible connection.

 

Normally the spren from such a dead chasmfiend might go into newborn chasmfiends, helping them grow. But ofcourse, almost no chasmfiends are allowed to pupate, its likely there arent any new nice and cozy chasmfiends to hang around.

 

Perhaps a nice parshendi to bond with instead, then?

[Fifth of Daybreak]

He mentions somewhere in Way of Kings that he sees things with twisted symbol faces in the mirrors. They seem to have since lost interest in him, or are afraid of Kaladin. I'll go look for the quote.

 

EDIT: A Chasmfiend is literally an impossibly large monstrosity with a bulbous, twisted body and a malicious emerald intent gleaming in its eyes as it malevolently hunts you down. If that doesn't make you note it down as "wrong and evil" I'm not sure what will.

 

That's not the whole story, that's the description from Kaladin's perpective. Shallan doesn't think so:

 

 

... He looked over te hulking from of the chasmfiend. "We actually killed the thing."

"Sad I know," she said, feeling depressed. "It was beautiful." 

WoR Chapter 71 Selfish Reasons

 

I think if the initial chapter had been in Shallan's viewpoint instead, the description would be less biased, at the very least. 

As for the spren, I think it would be relevant to consult Shallan on this one:

 

 

"Skyeels," Shallan whispered. "They follow skyeels too. The chasmfiend likes corpses. Could its kind be carrion feeders by nature? No, those claws, they look like they're meant for breaking shells. I suspect we'd find herds of wild chulls near where these things live naturally. But they come to the SHattered Plains to pupate, and here there's very little food, which is why they attack men. Why has this one remained after pupating?"

WoR Chapter 70 From a Nightmare

 

I think it's unlikely that the spren are evil, as with the chasmfiend. They just seem like the apex predator of Roshar, which already has a pretty nasty predator in the form of the Whitespine. And with the spren being connected to the Skyeels, and most likely linked to their ability to fly, and even the spren around the Reshi Island Greatshells, I have to conclude they are just there as part of the creatures ability to survive. I don't see much in the way of evidence that they are evil. Anything used to describe the chasmfiend are tainted by Kaladin's bias at the very least. 

[dyring]

EMTrevor

 

Argument could be made that the sprens are (likely) gone at that point, with the creature dead.

 

The reshi island spren, and the ocean greatshells, the are both friendly creatures.

 

That said, its not a slam dunk. Its an interesting possibility. And I do think something strange is going on with those sprens. Something have made the chasmfiends more hateful - otherwise it would not waste energy chasing 2 small meals(it propably wasted as much energy as Kaladin and shallan would give it chasing them) with dead bodies around.

[Arondell]

I thought there was a Word of Brandon that killing as many chasmfiends as the Alethi had will have some kind of consequence.  Possibly ecological.  This speculation makes me wonder if...

 

 

Mistborn spoiler :

...the chasmfiends somehow siphon off Odium's power much as the Pits of Hathsin siphoned off Ruin's power. 

[Fifth of Daybreak]

I thought there was a Word of Brandon that killing as many chasmfiends as the Alethi had will have some kind of consequence.  Possibly ecological.  This speculation makes me wonder if...

 

 

Mistborn spoiler :

...the chasmfiends somehow siphon off Odium's power much as the Pits of Hathsin siphoned off Ruin's power. 

 

 

If I had to guess, I'd say it would more affect their gemstone supply than anything. They lose gemstones to soulcasting pretty regularly, and also for regrowing Shardplate. If they keep hunting the Chasmfiends to near extinction as Shallan has suggested they are doing in the winehouse, then the supply of fresh gemstones which makes life possibly will dry up. That could cause huge problems trying to feed the mass of people inside Urithiru, and it could also eventually limit the amount of shardplate they can use, if they can't spare any gemstones to regrow it, not to mention the limited availability of stormlight for the Surgebinders. 

[WeiryWriter]

Exterminating the apex predators in an environment is a bad thing ecologically, that's just science.  I don't think there needs to be anything magical going on for this to be a bad thing.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

Exterminating the apex predators in an environment is a bad thing ecologically, that's just science.  I don't think there needs to be anything magical going on for this to be a bad thing.

 

Agreed, but since spren are bonding (inhabiting?) the Chasmfiends there is definitely something magical going on in addition to the systematic eradication of apex predators. 

[WeiryWriter]

But symbiotic bonds with spren is a natural thing on Roshar, most creatures do it, I really doubt there is something special about the bonds chasmfiends have.

[dyring]

Removing the apex predator mostly means you get a shitload of their food. Kill all wolves and you get to many elks and so on.

 

I somehow doubt that brandon mean that the major consequences are simply that in a decade or so they are going to have way to many chulls;)

 

As for the gemstones, I do not think that will be catastrophic. If anything currency would be destroyed by continuing to have such a large influx of gems. They went by nicely before they found the shattered plains and the chasmfiends 10 years ago, they can again, and they got a huge stockpile of gems. With radiants around small gems actually works almost as well, as the radiant can take in the stormlight and infuse what needs to be infused, so its propably as good to pull form 10 lesser as one huge gem.

 

Im feeling certain something fishy is going on with them sprens. Not sure I got the right consequence, but something...

[WeiryWriter]

Yes if you get rid of the apex predators it leads to their prey growing in number, but I would call that a gross oversimplification.  Without a limit to their growth that population will grow to the point where the environment can no longer support it.  Say a given area can support 40 chulls sustainably but with predation from chasmfiends there are usually 30 chulls in that area.  Now take away the chasmfiends and that 30 chulls are going to reproduce and grow, and they aren't going to stop at 40.  Let's say it gets to 80, stripping the environment of all the suitable chull food to the point where it's going to take years to recover.  And what is going to happen to the chulls?  The population level will plummet.
 
Near where I live we don't have wolves or anything anymore, so there aren't really any predators for all the deer.  Usually the local parks/forests have prohibitions against deer hunting but every few years they are opened up to hunters to "cull the herd" in an effort to keep the deer population from growing out of control.
 
There doesn't *need* to be a magical component for this to be a truly horrifying thing.  IT IS BAD TO KILL OFF THE APEX PREDATORS.  Period.
 
p.s. please don't say "sprens" it's wrong, the plural of spren is spren.
 
p.p.s here is the WoB where he says killing off the chasmfiends is a bad idea, emphasis mine:
 

Yados

Between the Parshendi and the Alethi harvesting gem-hearts, how long has it been since a Chasmfiend got to finish pupating?

Brandon Sanderson

Aha. I wondered if someone would ask that. Much like whaling in our own world, there is a big ecological price building for what is going on here. You are right to worry about this.

 

(source)

[maxal]

Near where I live we don't have wolves or anything anymore, so there aren't really any predators for all the deer.  Usually the local parks/forests have prohibitions against deer hunting but every few years they are opened up to hunters to "cull the herd" in an effort to keep the deer population from growing out of control.

 

We have the same problem. We do have wolves, but they live up far in the North... Down south where most people live, there is no wolves and the deer population tend to rise, especially since hunting is running out of fashion.

 

We know chasmfields eat chulls, but chulls do not live solely on the shattered plains, now don't they? So if it turns out there is more chull on the shattered plains and they end up eating to many rockbud (or whatever it is chull eat anyway ), how does that affect the population of say Alethkar? It's quite far away.

 

Brandon must have been implying something else than an increasing number of chulls.....

[Observer]

Keep in mind that we don't seem to know much about pre-pupation chasmfiends or where they even come from or grow up into. It's been a long time since a new chasmfiend was allowed to be born or one was allowed to pupate. Chasmfiends don't live in the Shattered Plains. Take a look at when it attacks Kaladin and Shallan, that thing isn't really built to fight in those holes. They live someplace else and grow up someplace else, and when they stop being a thing I'll eat my hat if they aren't sorely missed by the ecosystem.

[hoser]

I have two memories that seem relevant, but no searchable book. I would love to have these confirmed or disconfirmed.

1. Chasmfiends hunt in the east of the shattered plains, possibly in groups, before coming west to pupate.
2. The crysalis is closest among greatshells to an aquatic species, suggesting that part of their lifecycle might be aquatic. (This one I feel pretty sure about, as I remember it from Shallan and Adoliin's highstorm-approach watching date.)

[Mckeedee123]

I've always thought the spren that follow Greatshells and Skyeels around are a little more mundane than you're suggesting. As an organism's mass increases, its strength increases at a disproportionately lower rate. Creatures like chasmfiends, or especially the Reshi Island Greatshells, would be much, much, too big to actually exist. Skyeels shouldn't be able to fly either, bladder or no bladder. These arrow-spren probably exist to help these organisms defy gravity just a bit. In fact, they might even be symbiotes. Most, if not all, greatshells have gemhearts, and these gems might serve as a repository of stormlight that attracts these spren.

[KevinTheHerdazian]

A great shell's spren saved Rysn. That doesn't seem like a void spren to me. Probably a cultivation spren

[Meg]

Dyring, one question: Do you mean "evil == odium-ish"? I understand you this way and I can't agree with this "definition". There might be an overlap in what this two words describe, but not a total.

Weiry has already put in the WoB about the ecological price of the gemheart-hunts. I'd like to add one more WoB:

 

Posted 27 September 2012 - 11:32 PM

 

'Observer', on 26 Sept 2012 - 01:54 AM, said:

One question really quick: What are the smoke-y spren that appear around a dead chasmfiend?

They are in a symbiotic relationship with the chasmfiend, and are part of what allow the creatures to grow to the size they do with an exoskeleton. (Along with a high-oxygen, lower-gravity world.)

So to me both questions (what are the spren and what happens if no more adult chasmfiends exist) are really unmagically answered by WoBs.