Stormstriders

[MoS03]

I'm in the Unmade camp. I think the Highstorm is a moving Perpendiculary, and that the Unmade are immobile in the Cognitive for some reason, but a Perpendicularity allows a sliding over to the Physical where they can move. They seem to move slowly across the continent based on the Mr. T chapter about the lessening Death Rattles.

[Brgst13]

I personally think that these are Worldhoppers, using Honors perpendicularity to get to  Roshar.  The large size may be a result of the Realmatic transition c rom cognitive to physical.

[Ciridae]

8 hours ago, skaa said:

For the record, I am in the "Stormstriders are spren, but not of Odium" camp. Moelach and Nergaoul have been shown to be active even without a highstorm, so I don't know where that argument came from.

I agree. The way Shallan described what she saw behind the stormwall seemed like there is a connection specifically to the highstorms. My best guess is that they are members of the same spren class that Brandon said that Cusicesh belongs to, a step below spren like the Stormfather and Nightwatcher. 

[Patrick Star]

20 hours ago, Knotai said:

I seem to recall there being a (possibly separate) thread that pretty much narrowed these guys down to Moelach and Nergoual. Which is which, I'm not sure. But if the skinnier one is what Dalinar sees when he is in the midst of battle, that points to it being Nergoual (who grants the Thrill).

Not really, there's no real indication of that.

Really the only one we can narrow down is the second.  By its appearance, it hints towards the second being Re-Shephir (I've posted this idea a few times, I may just make a thread on it so I can link to it in the future).

Not conclusive at all, but still a decent hint.

[Jondesu]

I'm beginning to wonder if they're not whoever the Bondsmith Spren originally were.  After all, the Stormfather wasn't Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow before the Recreance, or at least before the shattering of Honor (which has been mostly confirmed to be after the Recreance), so the Rider of the Storms was bonded to a Bondsmith before that from what we know.  What if there are three big spren that travel the highstorms, and they are who the Bondsmiths bonded?  The Rider of the Storms may not have actually controlled the storm back then either, since Honor/Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow could have potentially allowed for more control over that, depending on the actual source of the storms.

[Jofwu]

6 hours ago, Jondesu said:

Stormfather wasn't Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow before the Recreance

I've been under the impression that Stormfather has been around since before the KR. I imagine Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow merged with (or attached itself to) Stormfather. This particularly makes sense if Honor's Perpendicularity is in the highstorm. All to say that I'm not sold that these are former Bondsmith-spren, or something like that.

I don't think they're Unmade either. They don't seem very evil for one... They hang out in the highstorm apparently, marching along with Stormfather. It seems like all the Unmade theories were based on the idea that they were connected to the Shattered Plains, and that's obviously not the case.

They certainly seem more like spren than something physical...

[Jondesu]

55 minutes ago, jofwu said:

I've been under the impression that Stormfather has been around since before the KR. I imagine Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow merged with (or attached itself to) Stormfather. This particularly makes sense if Honor's Perpendicularity is in the highstorm. All to say that I'm not sold that these are former Bondsmith-spren, or something like that.

I don't think they're Unmade either. They don't seem very evil for one... They hang out in the highstorm apparently, marching along with Stormfather. It seems like all the Unmade theories were based on the idea that they were connected to the Shattered Plains, and that's obviously not the case.

They certainly seem more like spren than something physical...

That was my point about the Stormfather. He was bonded before, to a Bondsmith presumably, but he wasn't the Cognitive Shadow (or bonded to) of Tanavast/Honor at that time, just a massive spren that very likely was of Adolnasium originally. The other figures in the storm could be similarly ancient spren.

[elnino19]

I have WAG that the other 2 forms are spren that bond to the 2 other bondsmiths. they are spren that are equal to stormfather(or were before honor splintered)

[glotof]

I was really expecting this to be resurrected, since Dalinar sees the stormstriders (and seems to think nothing of them) in one of the early flashback chapters in OB. Granted, I'm only at page 500, so maybe there's more to come.

[Jondesu]

@glotof, that should be in spoiler tags for now. I agree, though.

[Bort]

I'm in the camp believing them to be Unmade. Also, I don't think they were travelling in the highstorm. I think they were travelling in the spiritual realm, and the only reason they can be seen in highstorms is because the storm opens up a 'gateway' (bad term, I know) into the spiritual realm to allow stormlight to pass through to the physical realm.

Also, with regards to someone's comment earlier about the Unmade being immobile, I disagree with this. The comments from Mr T suggest (in my eyes at least), that Moelach is moving on because something has caught the Unmade's attention, and also he talks about finally locating Nergaoul.

[TJtheWiz]

18 hours ago, Bort said:

I'm in the camp believing them to be Unmade. Also, I don't think they were travelling in the highstorm. I think they were travelling in the spiritual realm, and the only reason they can be seen in highstorms is because the storm opens up a 'gateway' (bad term, I know) into the spiritual realm to allow stormlight to pass through to the physical realm.

Also, with regards to someone's comment earlier about the Unmade being immobile, I disagree with this. The comments from Mr T suggest (in my eyes at least), that Moelach is moving on because something has caught the Unmade's attention, and also he talks about finally locating Nergaoul.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Your latter comment was right about the Unmade moving (which, like you said, we know because of Mr T's comments); however, I don't think that the stormstriders would be Unmade.

We know that the stormstriders are (vaguely) humanoid, from this quote from OB (I would use the WoR quote, but I lent it to someone so they could read it, so I don't have access to the quote. I might add it later when I get it back).

Spoiler

"Dalinar glanced and saw something luminous in the distance: a gargantuan figure that moved on spindly glowing legs." Oathbringer (Pg. 209)

We also know that the Unmade are not humanoid, although each of the Unmade is shaped and looks differently (OB spoilers):

Spoiler

Nergaoul (the Thrill): "On the shore, a large dark mass of living red light surged across the obsidian ground." (in Shadesmar/Cognitive Realm) Oathbringer (Pg. 1082)

"Below him, Dalinar walked toward the red mist. Though tendrils of it moved among the soldiers of Amaram's army, the bulk of it swirled closer to the coast, to the right of the bay and the destroyed docks." (Physical Realm) Oathbringer (Pg. 1145)

Re-Shepir: "A large mass that reflected the light, like glistening tar." Oathbringer (Pg. 304)

Ashertmarn: "As Shallan had warned, it was overgrown with a dark mass that pulsed and throbbed like a pitch-black heart. Dark veins spread from it like roots, pulsating in time with the heart." Oathbringer (Pg. 808)

Sja-anat: "The reflected room faded and the figure distorted, and became a jet-black shadow with white holes for eyes." Oathbringer (Pg. 816)

Yelignar: For this one, I'm going to use a quote from The Coppermind to better explain this.

"Yelig-nar is also known as Blightwind, and differs from typical Unmade in a few ways. Instead of having a specific physical appearance, he is capable of joining with people or singers who swallow a gemstone, granting them the ability to make use of all ten Surges. Those he possess have red eyes, grow crystals from their body, and appear to be wreathed in a black wind. It appears that the people who join with Yelig-nar must control him if they do not wish to be consumed by him."

Of the other four Unmade (Ba-Ado-Mishram, Chemoarish, Dai-Gonarthis, and Moelach), we don't know their exact forms or shapes yet. However, we can use the trend observed from the other Unmade to reasonably deduce that these are also in the shape of a large mass of investiture (except Mishram, who likely looks similar to a voidspren).

The Unmade can't be the stormstriders because they have different physical manifestations to the stormstriders, as shown above.

As for who I believe the stormstriders are, I'm going to have to say that I think they are more powerful spren of Honor and Cultivation like Cusciesh. I don't really have anything to back this though, it's more of a guess than anything else.

Edited January 11, 2018 by TJtheWiz

[Bort]

You have quoted what they look like in the physical realm. That isn't to say that their spiritual aspect looks like something else. If the Unmade were once human (or listener), then does it matter what their physical forms are like? Surely their spiritual forms would still be humanoid?

[TJtheWiz]

3 hours ago, Bort said:

You have quoted what they look like in the physical realm. That isn't to say that their spiritual aspect looks like something else. If the Unmade were once human (or listener), then does it matter what their physical forms are like? Surely their spiritual forms would still be humanoid?

I guess there is a chance that their Spiritual Aspect looks like something else, but I doubt it would be humanoid.

The problem is, the Unmade were neither human or listener. They are actual Splinters of Odium, similar to the Stormfather or the Nightwatcher. They would not manifest in the Spiritual Realm as being anywhere near humanoid, but more as a large mass of Investiture, because that is what they really are, as shown by the quotes I put down.

Edited January 11, 2018 by TJtheWiz

[Bort]

How do you know they were neither human nor listener? I don't believe we have WoB telling us what the Unmade are, or were. That they are Splinters of Odium, I'm not going to deny that, I think it is likely. But, I don't believe they are 'living Investiture masses'. That might be how they manifest in the physical realm, but isn't necessarily what we would see when looking at them in the other realms.

We even have proof of this. Look at the differences between the 'mindless' Spren in the physical realm compared to Shadesmar. What you see in the physical realm is only a small fraction of the overall Spren.

[Drag0nR3born]

On ‎2‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 5:38 PM, Jondesu said:

That was my point about the Stormfather. He was bonded before, to a Bondsmith presumably, but he wasn't the Cognitive Shadow (or bonded to) of Tanavast/Honor at that time, just a massive spren that very likely was of Adolnasium originally. The other figures in the storm could be similarly ancient spren.

I'm going with the spren theory for now.  I think they may not be "highstorm-spren" because I think that would be the Stormfather.  These Stormstriders may be what the Stormfather was before Honor's Cognitive shadow bonded to him as said above but I wonder if they are spren of the destruction a highstorm brings.  Highstorms are thought of in many different ways (storm water helps plants, storm winds destroy, etc) and I wonder if a certain aspect of the highstorms were given enough thought to create these Stormstrider "spren".  Like if these spren are what was created from the idea that "being out in a highstorm means death."  Just a random theory with no evidence

Edited January 11, 2018 by Drag0nR3born

[TJtheWiz]

15 hours ago, Bort said:

How do you know they were neither human nor listener? I don't believe we have WoB telling us what the Unmade are, or were. That they are Splinters of Odium, I'm not going to deny that, I think it is likely. But, I don't believe they are 'living Investiture masses'. That might be how they manifest in the physical realm, but isn't necessarily what we would see when looking at them in the other realms.

We even have proof of this. Look at the differences between the 'mindless' Spren in the physical realm compared to Shadesmar. What you see in the physical realm is only a small fraction of the overall Spren.

Hmm... I guess we won't know until the next books come out, sadly. I don't really have much to argue with that; your point is correct. I'm still on the side that the stormstriders are not Unmade, but I could easily be wrong.

I was thinking just now, are there any WoB's that talk about the stormstriders? I was searching for them, and I'm not sure if I'm using the wrong search terms, or if no one has actually asked about them, but I couldn't find anything on stormstriders.

[Bort]

I don't know.  Not that I am aware of. 

[kikikakakuku]

These huge shadows remind me of something from One Piece. When the crew was under an inhabited cloud, the people living on the cloud created huge shadows that looked like alien monsters. So what if there are people in the highstorm clouds. Or something else. Some people mentioned ecosystems of the highstorm.

Another thought I was having is that they may be shadows of people in the cognitive realm. We know highstorms have a representation in there. We also know shadows go in the wrong direction there. Wasn't the highstorm glowing kind of in the cognitive realm? Maybe the shadows from that glow go to the physical realm. Idk about the glowing.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

On Wednesday, July 23, 2014 at 1:24 PM, traceria said:

I just want toss out the idea that maybe there's a whole traveling ecosystem to the High Storm.  Humanoids might not see much evidence of it because the lifeforms that call it home like to stay away from what we'd call civilization, with the natural destruction of the High Storm also covering any tracks.  The Stormstriders could simply be one of the larger lifeforms in the ecosystem of the High Storm.

 

Just a thought and not something I personal espouse...unless, you know, someone wants to take up this torch and manages to convince me of its likelihood.

Challenge accepted.

Here are some WoBs that I put together for a different post that explains how Crem is a vital part of the Rosharan ecosystem and is most likely under the purview of Cultivation's Investiture (spoilered below for length):

Spoiler

This WoB shows that Cultivation Crem is part of Cultivations Investiture:

Spoiler

Lindel (paraphrased)

Crem and the Purelake on Roshar. Do they have any connection to Cultivation?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Both existed on the planet before Cultivation arrived.

Lindel (paraphrased)

But both are influenced by her now?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, she influences both.

Crem is like shard poop (later qualified) WoB:

Spoiler

Questioner

Is crem spren poop? Or at least… not literally, but something like it?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it’s more like Shard poop. (Somewhat unsure sounding?)

Qualification of Shard Poop WoB:

Spoiler

Questioner

Yesterday you said that crem was actually like Shard poop.

Brandon Sanderson

No, I was saying that it was more like that than what they were saying.

Questioner

It's not really poop?

Brandon Sanderson

No, its not.

Questioner

Dang it, I like poop jokes! Can you make it poop so i can have a poop joke.

Brandon Sanderson

Ok, for the next thirty seconds it is.

And further confirmation that Crem has always beens a means for distributing Investiture on Roshar WoB:

Spoiler

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Has stormwater tasted metallic always?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Even pre-Shattering?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Even pre-Shattering it would get a metallic taste, that's the crem. So. That is an indication of Investiture and things. But it was there-- it was in place first, before.

 

This heavily implies that the Highstorm is doing at least 2 important things:

1. Distributing Investiture in the form of Stormlight
2. Distributing life-sustaining minerals and nutrients in the form of Crem (which is slightly invested) to maintain all life on the rocky and barren surfaces of Roshar.

There is a thread started by @DracostarA where some are speculating that the Sibling is "The Lifebrother", who was only mentioned once when Szeth finds out that Taravangian is holding his oath stone:

Here is the quote from the scene from WoR:

Quote

"Yes, I speak your language. Sometimes I wonder if the Lifebrother himself sent you to me." (T talking to Szeth)

"To bloody myself so that you wouldn't have to," Szeth said. "Yes, that sounds like something one of your Vorin gods would do."

If these Stormstriders are really giant spren that are part of the magical ecology of Roshar, this is a possible speculative explanation for their two roles. One to distribute water (which is possibly slightly invested). We know that the water in the Purelake is heavily invested (magic fish) and one pool for sure in the Horn Eater peaks is very definitely invested, so water in the water cycle might be one form of investiture dispersal. The other role would be the distribution of mineral rich crem, which we know from the above WoBs is invested. So possibly you have Lifebrother spreading crem fertilizer and Rainsister making sure all the semi-sentient flora gets the magic water that they need.

If this ecological view is correct and the Stormstriders are in fact giant level spren, I think that opens up 4 distinct possibilites for what they are;

1. They are demi-god, Cusicesh level spren
2. They are the two components of the "hurt" sibling
3. They are demi-god Cusicesh level spren and they are components of the hurt sibling, along with Cusciesh (who seems like somewhat mindless, almost like a spren with a broken oath)
4. They are the other 2 god level spren

I think that option 1 is unlikely because if they are distributors of Investiture that would seem to imply that they are heavily invested themselves, like the SF.

I think that option 2 is somewhat likely, but it doesn't really get us anywhere in terms of speculating about what they are actually doing

I like option 3 the most, and will address it down below in the speculation part.

I instinctively disagree with the 4th option because it would seem strange to me that 2 out of the 3 god spren were mostly derived from Cultivation's Investiture.

SPECULATION:

I like the Sibling being a 2 or 3 part spren construct, including Cusicesh the Protector. This addresses why such an impressive Spren as Cusicesh is a step below god-level spren, because she would effectively be a third or a half of a God-Level spren. I've also never really liked the idea that the Nightwatcher was a Bondsmith spren. I can see the utility in bonding the Stormfather, he see's a lot and is the key to Honor's perpendicularity and the distribution of Stormlight. The Nightwatcher, especially after Dalinar's trip to the valley, seems like a hold over spren (from the Shadow days' superstitions that created the Old Magic) that Cultivation adopted and is trying to domesticate. The scene in the Valley reads like the NW is Cultivation's pet snake, like Voldemort's horcruxed Nagini.

I personally hope that one of the Bondsmith bonds BAM, that sounds like an interesting conflict, and a challenge worthy of Taravangian. The most intelligent of the enemy's Unmade, bound to the Compassionate/Intelligent super Utilitarian. Talk about baked in conflict, that would be rad.

EDIT:
This has been tumbling around in my head for a bit, like a boulder getting pushed by the stormwall. Spoilered below is the Door's song Striders In The Storm:

Spoiler

Striders in the storm
Striders in the storm
Long legged gargantuan
Luminescent spren?
We just know what we're shown
They're weird is all that's known
Striders in the storm

There's a theory on this thread
It's one you've prob'bly read
That they're the Sib-a-ling
But that don't prove a thing
It's all just fun surmise
Till another theory dies
Killed it on this thread, yeah

Girl, you gotta love those spren
Man, you gotta love those spren
But we will not know more
Until we get book four
But my speculating friends
Our theories never end
Gotta love those spren, yeah

Striders in the storm
Striders in the storm
Long legged gargantuan
Luminescent spren?
We only know what we're shown
They're weird is all that's known
Striders in the storm

Striders in the storm
Striders in the storm
Striders in the storm
Striders in the storm
Striders in the storm

 

Edited January 16, 2018 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine
Added a diverting little ditty.

[GoWibble]

On 1/12/2018 at 0:04 AM, TJtheWiz said:

I was thinking just now, are there any WoB's that talk about the stormstriders? I was searching for them, and I'm not sure if I'm using the wrong search terms, or if no one has actually asked about them, but I couldn't find anything on stormstriders.

Using stormstriders works. try here It kind of helps (for others, I've listed the relevant WoBs Below) There weren't WoBs back when you asked, though...

WoBs (spoilered for length)

Spoiler

#1 (for clarity)

Quote

Questioner

...Can the Storm Striders move when a highstorm is not passing?

Brandon Sanderson

No... Can is a strong term. They do not, how's that?

Skyward Atlanta signing (Nov. 17, 2018)

#2

Quote

GreenRover

During the storm that Kaladin was in with Shallan in book 2; those two massive walkers we saw--are those Parshendi, Unmade, or spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Spren, with the caveat that might not mean they aren't Unmade, because that's not an either-or.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

And the passages from WoR and OB:

Quote

Light came from above, too steady to be lightning. Something was glowing on the plateau. Something that moved. It was hard to see, since water streamed off the side of the plateau above, falling in a sheet before their refuge. He swore he saw an enormous figure walking up there, a glowing inhuman form, followed by another, alien and sleek. Striding the storm. Leg after leg, until the glow passed. (WoR Chapter 74 with Shallan and Kal as witnesses)

Quote

An explosive burst of wind drove him against the wall, and he stumbled, then stepped backward, driven by instincts he couldn’t define. A large boulder slammed into the wall, then bounced away. Dalinar glanced and saw something luminous in the distance: a gargantuan figure that moved on spindly glowing legs. (OB chapter 19 with a somewhat sober Dalinar as witness)

So the Stormstriders are likely not chasmfiends (as discussed earlier in the thread) due to Dalinar's sight of them during the highstorm when Evi and Toh came to meet with the Alethi, and due to WoB #2

My personal theory is that they are spren (yes, I am siding with a solid WoB on this one) that have a few quirks

1. They don't move constantly with the Highstorm

The Stormstriders move with the storm (per WoB #1), but they are not described as moving particularly fast ("walked on spindly legs") so they are either a. regular things that the Alethi regularly find during the non-storm times  or b. they disappear, likely into the chasms to hide

2. They glow

The glow isn't described as the dark voidlight, but rather close to stormlight. One option that they could be is a manifestation of spren from the cognitive realm that are made possible through the link through the highstorm (like the Dalinar moment of Unity). Another, I guess, is that they could be splinters (the essence of what spren are) from another world that bonded a spren and have inhaled some Stormlight (which is really unlikely). Additionally, they could be something that came from Ashyn with the humans and Heralds. Alternatively, they could be from Braize... (but not Unmade (see below))

3. There are multiple of them (see the above WoR section) 

This suggests that they are not Unmade because the Unmade are fairly unique, and there is a duplicate of the Stormstrider. The Striders also emit a light that Kaladin doesn't describe as strange, which implies that they have more of a Stormlight glow than voidlight. 

4. Their shape: "enormous figure" "alien and sleek" "gargantuan figure that moved on spindly glowing legs"

This suggests that they are spren, which brandon confirmed, and might be something that is only truly seen with a window to the Cognitive Realm. This also suggests that they are unique and closer to Cusicesh. 

 

So I think that they are a spren that hides in the chasms that comes out for some reason to walk in the storms (maybe to be infused)

What are people's thoughts on this?

[Gilphon]

I'm kind of disappointed that they're almost certainly some kind of spren. I preferred to think that there were just huge and mysterious being living within the storm, travelling with it. 

They're not Unmade, though. That's an idea I hadn't encountered before, and seems to mostly be a product of pre-OB speculation back when we didn't know much of anything concrete about the Unmade.

[AquaRegia]

I'm also a tiny bit disappointed - seems like, by process of elimination (and supported by WoB), the Stormstriders are some weird kind of spren.  I really hope we learn more about them at some point.

Kudos @Hoiditthroughthegrapevine for the lyrics LOL

[mathiau]

Can't they be CSs? Fleet's spirit is supposed to be eternally racing against the Stormfather.

[Frustration]

14 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Can't they be CSs? Fleet's spirit is supposed to be eternally racing against the Stormfather.

CS look like the people they originally were.

If they are shadows, they aren't the shadows of people.