The Caustic Nature of Investiture

[Terisen]

The Caustic Nature of Investiture

First and foremost, I need to recognize Tempus for a ton of help on this theory.  There were multiple conversations that we had and I couldn’t have put this together without those conversations.  Credit where credit is due.

 

Introduction

There were certain properties and side-effects from the magic systems and magical artifacts that seemed to align and suggest an overall property of the unified magic system.  I had seen another thread in the Warbreaker forum that hinted at the link^[1], but only explored the relationship between two of the worlds/magic systems.  Specifically, it was the similarity between an object that had been drained of color and a wound on a limb that had been inflicted by a Shardblade and how both turned grey.  The relationship was explored, but didn’t seem to be expanded to the Cosmere as a whole.

 

I wanted to take the similarities of the two and find a common thread for all the magic systems because it seemed too coincidental for Awakening and Shardblades to grey things out but nothing else.  After a false start where I tried to have everything result in something being greyed out, I read the Realmatic Attributes theory.  That coupled with suggestions from Tempus led me to the actual nature of Investiture.

 

Theory

Investiture is, by nature, a caustic force.  More specifically, it corrodes different features of the different realms, with the strength of the corrosion proportional on the volume of Investiture that is concentrated in the realm for the magic system.

 

Reasoning

The easiest place to start with this is with Allomancy.  As Chaos posited in the Realmatic attributes thread, Allomancy is focused very heavily in the Physical Realm^[2].  The metal acts as a conduit for the Allomancy and, when being used, the metal is vaporized^[3].  The only two components here are the metal and the Investiture, so it stands to reason that the Investiture is responsible for the vaporization.  It is packed in to a very small area, causing the Investiture to become very dense in a very small area and the metal is eliminated in the Physical Realm.

 

Consider another example of dense Investiture in Nightblood.  While we’ve seen denser collections of Breaths in others (Nightblood has 1,000 Breaths and the God King has over 10,000), the Breaths in Nightblood are constantly activated due to the command given while Awakening.  The Breaths in Susebron remain “dormant”.  When drawn, Nightblood vaporizes people when coming in contact^[4], just the same as metal in Allomancy.   Nightblood even discolors with his smoke in the same way a Shardblade discolors when cutting^[5].

 

Awakening drains the color when used.  So how does this fit?  Well, the caustic nature of the Investiture is still burning something up, but it happens to be in a different realm.  This time, it occurs in the Spiritual Realm.  The color is used up much like the metal in Allomancy, but the users see it in a very different way.  The object still exists in the Physical Realm, but a component of its spiritual identity is missing.  This shows as the object now being grey in the Physical Realm.  The burning of the attribute in the Spiritual Realm is a function of the magic system (Physical for Allomancy, Spiritual for Awakening).  This is because Awakening has a heavier presence in the Spiritual Realm.  Again, density per realm is important.

 

Take, then Feruchemy.  This one gave me a bit of trouble when I was initially trying to justify everything as turning grey.  However, in the model of Investiture being caustic, it fits fairly well in my mind.  The attributes stored are moved from an individual to a metalmind.  I picture this happening along a “stream” of investiture.  It would appear that it’s a one-to-one transfer.  But I believe there’s an actual cost to this and the attribute actually has a little bit burned away during the transfer.  It’s not a tremendous amount as the flow is not really dense.  But consider what happens when a Feruchemist draws quickly upon a metalmind (or uses more of what is stored).  Decreasing returns^[6].  This is because more of the material is carried faster along the Investiture.  A bigger stream of Investiture, if you will, which is a higher density.  You lose to the corrosive nature of the Investiture.

 

For brevity’s sake here, I’ve listed the systems and the feature corroded below.

 

Allomancy -> Metal
Feruchemy -> Attribute Stored
Hemalurgy -> Unknown for now
AonDor -> Shape Drawn
ChayShan -> Unknown for now
Dahkor -> Unknown for now
Stormlight -> Heat (resulting in frost)
Awakening -> Color

 

The purpose here is not to make a definitive listing, but to provide the framework.  If people come up with what the item corroded is, I’m willing to update this list.

 

While not an official part of this theory, I believe this may explain why Adonalsium shattered.  Much like a star using up all its fuel and going supernova, the innate Investiture there may have caused Adonalsium to shatter.  And, like a supernova star reforming into planets and another star, we could get the 16 shards.  This also implies that Adonalsium may not be able to be put back together, as has been posited in another theory.

 

References

[1]

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/6716-physical-colour-is-not-the-fuel-for-awakening-mild-wor-spoilers/

[2]

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/9502-realmatic-attributes-a-classification-of-magics/

[3]

Q: When non-god metals are burned Allomantically, what happens to the metals? Are they crushed into tiny specks? Do they disappear?

 

A: The metals become a key conduit through which the power is delivered. So they are actually sort of vaporized, and the atomic code is a key by which the power is drawn in.

[4]

A single scratch and the bodies dissolved like paper being consumed by an invisible fire, leaving behind only a large stain of blackness in the air.

[5]

When he had barely gotten a thin sliver of blade free, a dark, fluidlike smoke began to stream out.  Some dripped to the ground; other tendrils of it snaked out and wrapped around the man's arm, drawing the color from his skin.

[6]

However, Feruchemy gives decreasing returns - it takes more than the proportionate amount of strength, for instance, to make yourself four times as string as a regular man, as opposed to simply twice as strong.

 

Edit: Formatting

Edited June 8, 2014 by Terisen

[Moogle]

This theory is interesting, and I've been thinking on the same property of Investiture, but ultimately I'm not very convinced.

 

The easiest place to start with this is with Allomancy.  As Chaos posited in the Realmatic attributes thread, Allomancy is focused very heavily in the Physical Realm^[2].  The metal acts as a conduit for the Allomancy and, when being used, the metal is vaporized^[3].  The only two components here are the metal and the Investiture, so it stands to reason that the Investiture is responsible for the vaporization.  It is packed in to a very small area, causing the Investiture to become very dense in a very small area and the metal is eliminated in the Physical Realm.

 

First of all, you'll have to justify the assertion that Allomancy is focused in the Physical, and what that's even supposed to mean. Allomancy always has mental effects, and most of the metals tend to be Spiritual in nature (all the temporal, all the enhancement, and probably bronze/copper).

 

Second, Scadrial is a low-Investiture world. Mistings don't glow or anything when they use Allomancy. Even though metal forms a relatively small area, there's no way there's enough concentrated Investiture that it should cause any sort of dissolving. And if that concentration is enough to cause this dissolution effect, then we should expect AonDor, which is a high-Investiture art (see: glowing things), to completely destroy vast swathes of something when it's used, particularly considering how small of an area Aons take up. AonDor doesn't do this - the effect is basically the same as burning a metal, except the Aon is consumed.

 

But you're thinking on what I am. It always seems like something is consumed when Investiture moves, and if something isn't consumed, then the Investiture itself is fed upon. There also does seem to be an effect related to the density of Investiture - Divine Breaths feed on other Breath, but regular Breaths don't. Feruchemy doesn't seem to drain anything, but when you want to move vast quantities of attributes very quickly you get decreasing returns, which implies some of the stored Investiture is being consumed to move the rest of the Investiture.

 

So, I'm not convinced on this theory at all, but it does bring up a very interesting line of discussion. I'm eager to hear what other people have to say.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Moogle

[Terisen]

I figured it would either be you, Tempus or Kurkistan who replied first.  

 

First of all, you'll have to justify the assertion that Allomancy is focused in the Physical, and what that's even supposed to mean. Allomancy always has mental effects, and most of the metals tend to be Spiritual in nature (all the temporal, all the enhancement, and probably bronze/copper).

 

Second, Scadrial is a low-Investiture world. Mistings don't glow or anything when they use Allomancy. Even though metal forms a relatively small area, there's no way there's enough concentrated Investiture that it should cause any sort of dissolving. And if that concentration is enough to cause this dissolution effect, then we should expect AonDor, which is a high-Investiture art (see: glowing things), to completely destroy vast swathes of something when it's used, particularly considering how small of an area Aons take up. AonDor doesn't do this - the effect is basically the same as burning a metal, except the Aon is consumed.

 

Certainly.  I was basing this off what I read from the Realmatic Attributes original post, as it made a lot of sense to me.  I'll pull out the part that I was basing this off.

 

Scadrian magics are interesting in that they are specially hardwired into a person's Spiritweb (and Hemalurgy revolves on rewiring these, essentially). It's the only cosmere magic like this, with very rigid abilities encoded into you. Many other magics can be accessed more easily, but not the Metallic Arts. You either have it or you don't, or you're a horrible person and like spiking people.

I would thus classify all Scadrian magics as Physical. Whereas other magics require significant work to get going, like AonDor, Forgery, or Awakening, all the "work" of the Realmatic interaction is contained in the correct metal. Nothing else is required.

Allomancy - Heavily Physical, minor Spiritual (due to its connection with Preservation), very little Cognitive

 

I did not mean to imply with my theory that Allomancy was purely physical, just that it's more tilted towards the physical than the other realms.

 

Also, the size of the metal vs. the Aons doesn't seem to be an issue for me.  With Allomancy, we're dealing with an atomic scale.  The metals are, to my mind, burned away atom by atom (or molecule by molecule). This is why you can ration out your Allomancy over time instead of getting one big bang the first time you use it, depending on the size of the metal flake.  You CAN flare the metals, which consumes more of the metal at a time, but it's not like the Aon that is over a MUCH larger area when compared to the atomic level and is consumed all at once.  This is the density I was referring to.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Terisen

[Moogle]

I figured it would either be you, Tempus or Kurkistan who replied first.  

 

Of course! Very little appeals to be more than broad theories about the mechanics of the Cosmere.

 

Certainly.  I was basing this off what I read from the Realmatic Attributes original post, as it made a lot of sense to me.  I'll pull out the part that I was basing this off.

 

Scadrian magics are interesting in that they are specially hardwired into a person's Spiritweb (and Hemalurgy revolves on rewiring these, essentially). It's the only cosmere magic like this, with very rigid abilities encoded into you. Many other magics can be accessed more easily, but not the Metallic Arts. You either have it or you don't, or you're a horrible person and like spiking people.

I would thus classify all Scadrian magics as Physical. Whereas other magics require significant work to get going, like AonDor, Forgery, or Awakening, all the "work" of the Realmatic interaction is contained in the correct metal. Nothing else is required.

Allomancy - Heavily Physical, minor Spiritual (due to its connection with Preservation), very little Cognitive

 

 

I disagree heavily with all of this. First of all, Allomancy does not have all that rigid of abilities compared to something like Surgebinding - compare Allomantic iron/Allomantic steel with use of the Gravity Surge. It's essentially the same thing.  As to Scadrian magic as being Physical, the metals don't even provide any of the work. See the AoL Ars Arcanum:

Allomancy is the most common of the three. It is end-positive, according to my terminology, meaning that the practitioner draws in power from an external source. The body then filters it into various forms. (The actual outlet of the power is not chosen by the practitioner, but instead is hardwritten into their Spiritweb.) The key to drawing this power comes in the form of various types of metals, with specific compositions being required. Though the metal is consumed in the process, the power itself doesn’t actually come from the metal. The metal is a catalyst, you might say, that begins an Investiture and keeps it running. In truth, this isn’t much different from the form-based Investitures one finds on Sel, where specific shape is the key—here, however, the interactions are more limited. Still, one cannot deny the raw power of Allomancy. It is instinctive and intuitive for the practitioner, as opposed to requiring a great deal of study and exactness, as one finds in the form-based Investitures of Sel.

 

It's clear that the metals are not required for the actual usage of Allomancy. What the metals do is provide the means to get Preservation's Investiture. Allomancy is a two part system. First, you get the Investiture by burning the metal, and then you use the Investiture you've got to do what you want via what's coded into your spiritweb. You can skip the first step when you burn the Mists - no need for any metals, or you could use Breath or some other thing. All of Allomancy's powers are contained in the spirit-web. Since the metals aren't required, I'm not sure that saying Allomancy is Physical because of the usage of metals is all that meaningful.

 

I'm also not clear why even if the metals did the work why that would mean Allomancy has a focus in the Physical, since the powers still require a ton of mental direction, and can be mentally coaxed into doing thing they don't do normally (like protecting others in a coppercloud from emotional Allomancy). I'm not even convinced you can say each of the systems has a certain ratio in each Realm. Certainly you can say that the powers of each system individually deal with some Realms more than others, but the systems as a whole? I think that it's trying to shoehorn each system into Realmatic theory where there's no need.

 

Also, the size of the metal vs. the Aons doesn't seem to be an issue for me.  With Allomancy, we're dealing with an atomic scale.  The metals are, to my mind, burned away atom by atom (or molecule by molecule). This is why you can ration out your Allomancy over time instead of getting one big bang the first time you use it, depending on the size of the metal flake.  You CAN flare the metals, which consumes more of the metal at a time, but it's not like the Aon that is over a MUCH larger area when compared to the atomic level and is consumed all at once.  This is the density I was referring to.

 

The Aon is over a larger area, but the Dor is this huge pressure that keeps wanting to get through any opened Aons. The concentration of the Dor is such that it literally glows in the air, something that doesn't happen to a Misting. Going by visual cues, the Dor should at least match Allomancy in Investiture-concentration. (Unless the stomach has little lights when metal burns? I demand we stick a camera down someone's throat and find out!)

[Tempus]

I disagree heavily with all of this. First of all, Allomancy does not have all that rigid of abilities compared to something like Surgebinding - compare Allomantic iron/Allomantic steel with use of the Gravity Surge. It's essentially the same thing. 

 

I think you missed what he was implying. Allomancy is the most rigid in the sense that it is highly restricted - a person can only ever use the portion of Allomancy/Feruchemy they are genetically inclined to, and those specific powers are in fact very narrow. If you say 'hemalurgy', I will punch you. Surgebinding is gained through actions, and you can even multi-bond in rare instances. Many Surges are much more versatile than Allomantic abilities as well - especially since the vast majority of Allomancers are Mistings. Systems like AonDor, or Forgery, or Breath are very versatile - they allow you a large amount of flexibility in your actions and results. Allomantic and Feruchemic abilities tends to do one narrow thing that can't really be used in any other way. If you can change your weight, ALL you can do is change your weight and power Moogle's favourite hamster wheel generators. A soulcaster has a very wide range of transformations they can effect.

 

 

The Aon is over a larger area, but the Dor is this huge pressure that keeps wanting to get through any opened Aons. The concentration of the Dor is such that it literally glows in the air, something that doesn't happen to a Misting. Going by visual cues, the Dor should at least match Allomancy in Investiture-concentration. (Unless the stomach has little lights when metal burns? I demand we stick a camera down someone's throat and find out!)

 

I'll contest this as well. We know Sel is high in Investiture (like Roshar) and Scadrial is low. We also know that Aons are boosted by a very large margin by the Amplifier of the City of Elantris. I really can't see any way you can say that they are matching concentrations: even without the amplifier Aons should be notably stronger. With it, it is vastly more concentrated.

[shawnhargreaves]

I'll contest this as well. We know Sel is high in Investiture (like Roshar) and Scadrial is low. We also know that Aons are boosted by a very large margin by the Amplifier of the City of Elantris. I really can't see any way you can say that they are matching concentrations: even without the amplifier Aons should be notably stronger. With it, it is vastly more concentrated.

 

The concentration doesn't have to match because the thing being affected is so extremely different in size.   The Dor has enough power to make a foot-high Aon visibly glow.   Stormlight also glows, on the scale of a macro-sized gemstone or even the entire body of a Radiant.  But on Scadrial, this theory says it is only a single molecule of metal that gets burned away at a time.  The total amount of power is vastly smaller, but so is its focus.

 

fwiw I don't agree with all aspects of this theory (in particular I don't think it fits AonDor or Stormlight particularly well) but I do find it plausible that channeling power through metal can burn away molecules of that metal, and that the way this works may be similar to the draining of color in Awakening.

[Moogle]

I think you missed what he was implying. Allomancy is the most rigid in the sense that it is highly restricted - a person can only ever use the portion of Allomancy/Feruchemy they are genetically inclined to, and those specific powers are in fact very narrow. If you say 'hemalurgy', I will punch you. Surgebinding is gained through actions, and you can even multi-bond in rare instances. Many Surges are much more versatile than Allomantic abilities as well - especially since the vast majority of Allomancers are Mistings. Systems like AonDor, or Forgery, or Breath are very versatile - they allow you a large amount of flexibility in your actions and results. Allomantic and Feruchemic abilities tends to do one narrow thing that can't really be used in any other way. If you can change your weight, ALL you can do is change your weight and power Moogle's favourite hamster wheel generators. A soulcaster has a very wide range of transformations they can effect.

 

And Soothing/Rioting can affect many, many emotions and would be a rough analogue to Soulcasting in my mind. I would also argue that a Mistborn is far, far more versatile than a Surgebinder, since they get 16 powers (+48 if allowing god metals). I get your main point - relative to other systems, Allomancy and Feruchemy are extremely narrow in their possible applications - but I was attempting to make the point that Surgebinding is a similarly limited system, and it's defined as a "Spiritual" magic in the post that was referred to, not Physical like Allomancy. This classification doesn't make much sense to me. I should probably post these objections in Chaos' thread, but his theory is central enough to Terisen's theory here that it's still reasonably on-topic.

 

I'll contest this as well. We know Sel is high in Investiture (like Roshar) and Scadrial is low. We also know that Aons are boosted by a very large margin by the Amplifier of the City of Elantris. I really can't see any way you can say that they are matching concentrations: even without the amplifier Aons should be notably stronger. With it, it is vastly more concentrated.

 

I agree. You'll notice I said that "the Dor should at least match Allomancy in Investiture-concentration". I do grant Terisen a point that if all the Investiture of Allomancy is focused on a few molecules of a metal at a time, then it's possible that it's more concentrated than the AonDor, since the area of a few molecules is quite a lot of magnitudes smaller than the finger-width Aon symbol, even if the Dor is a few magnitudes more powerful.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Moogle

[Terisen]

I agree. You'll notice I said that "the Dor should at least match Allomancy in Investiture-concentration". I do grant Terisen a point that if all the Investiture of Allomancy is focused on a few molecules of a metal at a time, then it's possible that it's more concentrated than the AonDor, since the area of a few molecules is quite a lot of magnitudes smaller than the finger-width Aon symbol, even if the Dor is a few magnitudes more powerful.

 

I've pictured the atoms as sort of a quantum-level Aon based on the way Brandon described it.  "[T]he atomic code is a key by which the power is drawn in."  Sounds sort of like how the Aon's shape determines the power drawn in.

 

 

fwiw I don't agree with all aspects of this theory (in particular I don't think it fits AonDor or Stormlight particularly well) but I do find it plausible that channeling power through metal can burn away molecules of that metal, and that the way this works may be similar to the draining of color in Awakening.

 

I think that there's something here with Stormlight as well, particular how high densities of it are dangerous.  Recall that when Kaladin is talking to Syl about Jezrien's Honorblade, she stated that using the blade required dangerous amounts of Stormlight.

 

"A person who uses this will need far, far more Light than you will.  Dangerous levels of it."

 

Why is it so dangerous?  I don't think we have a definitive answer on it, so I'd suggest that it's corroding something by having that much Stormlight.

 

The other problem that we get when comparing Investiture across magic systems is that we have no good conversion table.  Heck, for Stormlight, gems are a bad unit of measure as Sigzil noted when trying to help Kaladin train.  Is a cubic inch of Stormlight equivalent to a cubic inch of Breath?  What about the Dor?  And even though we have the terms "high Investiture" and "low Investiture", do we even know how that equates?  Is it double for high versus low?  Triple?  (If there's a WoB on this, can someone point it out to me?)  I've made some assumptions here that something like Stormlight isn't orders upon orders of magnitudes greater than Allomancy because, well, had to guess somewhere.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Terisen

[PorridgeBrick]

Why is it so dangerous? I don't think we have a definitive answer on it, so I'd suggest that it's corroding something by having that much Stormlight.

While this could be from the properties of Investiture itself as you were saying, that is not the only reason high Stormlight levels could be dangerous. I suggest reading the thread "The Physiology of Holding Stormlight" in the main SA boards. With high Stormlight levels, that means lots of high pressure pseudo-gas flowing through your veins, your circulatory system expanded to cope with much higher flow than it can normally take. That could cause nasty effects long before any causticness comes into play.

[Darkarma]

I wanted to add that might help this theory along is a WoB that Hemalurgy is essentially universal in that it can be used in the same way regardless of the local magic system. I myself attribute this to entropy being equally universal to the laws of physics in the Cosmere. IE Ruin has an effect on everything even after he was invested in Scadrial. The Caustic nature of Investiture could be related to this.

 

Also a second back up to this is (WoR Spolier):

Lift's ability to convert food into stormlight.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Darkarma

[Chaos]

And Soothing/Rioting can affect many, many emotions and would be a rough analogue to Soulcasting in my mind. I would also argue that a Mistborn is far, far more versatile than a Surgebinder, since they get 16 powers (+48 if allowing god metals). I get your main point - relative to other systems, Allomancy and Feruchemy are extremely narrow in their possible applications - but I was attempting to make the point that Surgebinding is a similarly limited system, and it's defined as a "Spiritual" magic in the post that was referred to, not Physical like Allomancy. This classification doesn't make much sense to me. I should probably post these objections in Chaos' thread, but his theory is central enough to Terisen's theory here that it's still reasonably on-topic.

Let me respond to this here, because I'm scared how long my reply to Realmatic Attributes will be.

Perhaps I did not make this clear when I described Physical magics. It isn't just about how restrictive the abilities are, though that's a part of it. What is really special is that Allomancy and Feruchemy are inherent by birth, whereas you can actually acquire Spiritually dominant magics (and magics with a high Spiritual component, like AonDor) from your actions and who you become. One corresponds with the platonic ideals of you, whereas that is not important in Allomancy and Feruchemy. Allomancy and Feruchemy's upper bound of absolute power is hard capped, whereas Surgebinding's "strength" can be increased a great deal.

And, because of that very key difference, the magics have different types of focuses. The Physical object of metal is essential for one, whereas a Physical focus is irrelevant to Surgebinding.

I should probably refine the Realmatic Attributes post to include this.

Does the categorization I used make a bit more sense?

[Pathfinder]

Is there anything definitive that stormlight uses heat? I give you that Kal and Szeth exhibit this, but that is because they are of the same order (though Szeth accesses it via the honorblade). Jasnah, Lift and Shallan all use stormlight but none exhibit frost. It is my theory that the frost is associated with the essence that Kal's order exhibits, being zephyr. Unless there is something I am missing that confirms that the other orders results in frost when using stormlight?

[High prince of geeks]

 

Is there anything definitive that stormlight uses heat? I give you that Kal and Szeth exhibit this, but that is because they are of the same order (Though Szeth accesses it via the honorblade). Jasnah, Lift and shallan all use stormlight but none exhibit frost. It is my theory that the frost is associate with the essence that Kal's order exhibits, being zephyr. Unless there is something I am missing that confirms that the other orders results in frost when using stromlight?

It could be that we have never seen anyone besides Szeth and Kal, Sure Shallan has made illusions that use huge amounts of stormlight, but that is over a period of time. From what I saw Lift has been using sparing amount of investure only using what she can get through eating. And Jasnah has only used her power in earnest once (when she was in the alley and kicked thief chull) but she had to keep the amount of stormlight she used sparingly so that Uber attention to detail Shallan wouldn't sea her glowing in the dark. We've seen frost appear around Szeth when he was fighting (which uses a ton of stormlight) and when Kal healed himself from the brink of death as well as swearing a new oath (which we learn from the last time he did it results in a head ton new stormlight)

[Pathfinder]

It could be that we have never seen anyone besides Szeth and Kal, Sure Shallan has made illusions that use huge amounts of stormlight, but that is over a period of time. From what I saw Lift has been using sparing amount of investure only using what she can get through eating. And Jasnah has only used her power in earnest once (when she was in the alley and kicked thief chull) but she had to keep the amount of stormlight she used sparingly so that Uber attention to detail Shallan wouldn't sea her glowing in the dark. We've seen frost appear around Szeth when he was fighting (which uses a ton of stormlight) and when Kal healed himself from the brink of death as well as swearing a new oath (which we learn from the last time he did it results in a head ton new stormlight)

Arguably it is difficult to compare how far along different knights radiants are depending on their order. After the first oath, lightweavers don't have oaths, they give truths. One could say Shallan was further along than Kaladin because she had used both her surges AND had a shardblade, yet she chose to forget and also her eyes haven't changed yet. I bring this up to illustrate that I admit it is difficult to CONCLUSIVELY say there isn't further for Shallan to go before she exhibits the frost, HOWEVER Kal evidenced frost when he landed AFTER using a surge. When Jasnah showed up after teleporting, there was no frost. Lift used regrowth to bring someone back from the dead. If that isn't enough to cause frost from stormlight use I don't know what does lol.  

[Lightsworn Panda]

Yay. Thread necromancy. There's a reason why I like to play necromancer in every high fantasy game if possible.

 

About bringing a person back from the dead, I have to disagree. The unlucky fellow that had his throat cut had at most 1 minute between getting injured and healing. Full brain death takes at least 6 minutes to occur, and around half a minute at fastest to start shutting down. Regrowth only healed his injuries, and possibly gave him a boost in blood supply. He was not dead yet. He may have lost a lot of blood, but not enough to be completely fatal.

[Fedelpen]

Hm. If investiture is caustic and always consumes/destroys something, I see a problem with the fact that the loss/power rate isn't even among the different magics. 

 

Allomancy -> Metal
Feruchemy -> Attribute Stored
Hemalurgy -> Unknown for now
AonDor -> Shape Drawn
ChayShan -> Unknown for now
Dahkor -> Unknown for now
Stormlight -> Heat (resulting in frost)
Awakening -> Color

 

The purpose here is not to make a definitive listing, but to provide the framework.  If people come up with what the item corroded is, I’m willing to update this list.

 

 

To start with, we're comparing apples per lawn chair to plants divided by wavelength. You lose color in awakening, but physical speed in steel feruchemy? 

The other issue is that many of them seem too attached to their individual magic system. It makes sense to have imperfect feruchemy, and it makes sense that allomancy consumes the metal (otherwise you could use it forever?); color based changes on Nalthis where color is affected by many things just 'fits', and Aons are single use rather than continuous--

--Except for the Aons that were continuous, such as the "lamps" that were inscribed. 

 

But, for discussion's sake, let's assume Investiture is caustic. What would that do to a Shard? 

[TalenelStonesiniew]

I actually think there is some merit to this.

 

First of all, lets look at Allomancy. We know that the catalyst is the "burning" of  the metals themselves. Vaporizing a bead of metal (ie turning the mass of the metal into energy, via E=MC^2) is a MUCH larger expenditure of energy than than with Stormlight investure, which lowers the temperature of the ground/air (at least for Windrunners) surrounding the surgebinder.

 

This actually ties in really well to Scandrial being a low investure world and Roshar being a high investure world. Let me explain. I'm a biologist by education, and we learn the importance of concentration gradients early as freshman year in college. It requires a LOT more energy to move something across the gradient than with the gradient. The amount of investure on Scandrial is low enough that the resistance to the investure would require a much larger expenditure of energy in the catalytic reaction (consumption of the metals) to move the investure across the gradient.

 

With Stormlight, the investure is high on Roshar, thus the amount of energy required to move the investure across the gradient is much, much lower due to the "ionic" difference being much closer to neutral than on Scandrial. Hence, the expenditure of energy in the form of heat (if that is in the fact catalyst) is much lower.

 

As for Fedelpen's last two sentences, I don't think the author of this thread is implying that investure is caustic towards the shard itself, but rather the medium used as a catalyst.

[kaellok]

I have nothing to add to this discussion.  However, the following two quotes made me laugh for an inordinate amount of time:

 

 

  (Unless the stomach has little lights when metal burns? I demand we stick a camera down someone's throat and find out!)

 

 

I think you missed what he was implying. Allomancy is the most rigid in the sense that it is highly restricted - a person can only ever use the portion of Allomancy/Feruchemy they are genetically inclined to, and those specific powers are in fact very narrow. If you say 'hemalurgy', I will punch you. 

(Emphasis mine, on the part that is so hilarious.  Preceding kept for some bit of context, so people don't think that Tempus goes around on a punching rampage anytime someone says the word "Hemalurgy."  Although that, too, is causing me a fit of the late-night God-I-wish-I-wasn't-at-work giggles.)