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Trell Religion *SPOILERS*


phoenix2563

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I just realized this whole forum was based off Alloy of law and I just finished reading Shadows of Self, I almost jumped a bit too far forward and began talking about the new metal found and all that jazz. I'll go look for the appropriate forum for my theory on where that came from.

Meh. I'm using this one anyway.

Also, as the topic indicates for me, there are potential spoilers for SoS in this.

I think Trell could be the owner of the shard of change if he is indeed related to Rust. Rust isn't decay; indeed, it is a reaction bringing two elements together. We have preservation to keep things the same, ruin to destroy them, wouldn't it be logical for a third to be the catalyst of change?

I think the argument that Ati messed with the copper minds is silly. Brandon Sanderson is a brilliant author; why make such a big deal over something that is no longer significant? Ati is dead, so having his legacy be the core focus of things is silly. Plus we have another god metal (possibly) in SoS that appears rusty.

What's really bothering me about the theory that Trell is a god using Trelagism as a mask to slot into things is that it's stupidly risky. Why make yourself a god from a religion with two gods? They don't have any mention of a Nalt. If Trell were an imposter than surely he would take a religion that only had one God.

Edited by Lhun
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Hm... Here are some thoughts.

 

Could be possible. Just haven't quite worked out in my mind how!

Just thought of one other thing. The character in Warbreaker named TRELedees. Obvious difference in the spelling but thought i'd throw that one in there tongue.gif

 

Well, and then you have denth as "varatreledees"...

But treledees seemed very hallendran, anyway. Not the sort to be secretly worshiping an evil shard, or trying to plant an evil cult off-world.

 

Odium could have visited Scadrial and manipulated some people. He's not as trigger-happy as Ruin, also he doesn't wear a t-shirt saying "I kill my fellow Shards and brak their stuff", so how could Sazed know that he's a bad guy?

Saze is pretty new, I think he was more like "Hmmm, that is something strange, I should invastigate it but not intervene too much. I hope they aren't mad at me for getting those Shards after Ati and Vin exploded, I'm not sure if it is a legal thing. Maybe he can teach me how to be a god? I'd better be cautious, anyway...".

And Odium was like "Hmmm... This guy is powerful, but knows nothing. I'd better not make him angry, but he can possibly be manipulated. I should take a look at people here. *starts a crazy cult* Yep, that should evlove nicely... *checks the time* Must go now, I have a Desolation. I'll come back here when he's weakened by results of my evil plot and kill him then.".

And Tan may be a part of this. Miles & The Set too.


"Rust and Ruin" reminds me of Ruin changing the prophecies and other texts. Or Hemalurgical decay. No idea what does it have to do with Miles, so it's probably not the right thing.

 

Lol this was funny. Still, it is an interesting dynamic. Sazed holds two shards, making him the most powerful entity in the cosmere. However, he is also quite new. All the other shardholders have been around for hundreds of years, and as far as we know they are all the original holders of them following when adolnasium shattered.

 

In the Annotations for Hero Of Ages, Brandon Sanderson is very clear on the point that only the polar regions of Scadrial were habitable, and the Final Empire is at the north pole. He poses the question of what is at the south pole multiple times, but offers no answer - it is safe to assume that something major is there.

 

Huh. Quite possibly there is something down there... No idea what Sazed would put down there, though. The few people who survived the events at the end of hero of ages were accounted for.


 

Don't put too much stock in phonetic similarity in Brandon's names for things. There are numerous cases of this being pure coincidence- Ati was the man who became the shard Ruin, but there is also a Seon Ati. There is a glyph in Warbreaker with the same name as a glyph in WoK. smile.gif I don't recall any time that we've noticed a similar name for something and it's actually been a cosmere revelation- those have been things like "This Hoid fellow sure shows up a lot", and "wow, the smoke from Shardblades in Way of Kings is described awfully similarly to the smoke from Nightblood in Warbreaker, and Brandon referred to both of them as invested objects..."

 

This can actually be explained fairly well I think. The worlds didn't all develop completely apart from each other. They had the intervention of shards who came from the same place, plus a select few individuals worldhopping around planets. Some aspects of culture and such may permeate.

 

So this is a point for an earlier post, in Scandrial there are 3 magic systems, Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy. From what i have seen in Brandon Sanderson's books each magic system is tied to a shard somehow. There are spren for Honor and Odium, the breath for the shard from warbreaker, and two forms of writing magic on sel (elantris) that relate to two possible shards, aon dor and whatever the Derethi have.

Seeing that there seems to be a one to one ratio of magic systems to shards, we see 3 magic systems in the Mistborn series. Allomancy is most-likely connected to preservation and Hemalurgy to Ruin, but where does Feruchemy come in? Is there possibly another source for this magic? Another shard seems unlikely but I am just guessing at this point.

Another thing worth mentioning, it seems like each magic system has 2 parts, a main part that is usually seen as 'good' and a second part used by the 'evil' shard that is very similar, examples would be spren from honor and voidspren from odium; aon dor on sel and the derethi magic; Allomancy and hemalurgy. All of these magic systems seem to be combatant with each other, similar yet opposite sides of the same coin. Again tying this back to Feruchemy, where does it come from? If it is a magic system tied to a shard, where is it's opposing magic? Is the opposing magic maybe something to do with the earlier hint from brandon "rust and ruin". Maybe there are 4 magic systems on scandrial?, Allomancy from preservation, hemalurgy from Ruin, Someting from whatever rust is, and Feruchemy from another unkown source?

I just wanted to pose a few questions and hypothesis to see what other people think. In no way am i super knowledgeable about a lot of cosmere stuff, but it does interest me and i try. So sorry if i have some facts incorrect.

 

I believe Sazed specifically states in the words of founding that allomancy is of preservation, hemalurgy is of ruin, and feruchemy is of harmony (both ruin and preservation). This is because allomancy results in a net gain of energy (allomantic powers are fueled by preservation), hemalurgy results in a net loss of energy (some is transferred through the spike but some is lost), and feruchemy has neither a gain nor a loss.

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Some strong SoS spoilers. Not hiding it as the thread has spoiler warnings.

Why does everyone assume that Trell has to be malicious? I mean, all we know about him is that he gave Miles purpose (albeit a messed up one) and his metal was used by Lessie, and that Brandon MAY have hinted at a connection between Trell and the phrase "rust and ruin". And, I suppose, that he was once worshipped as a subtle and peaceful god, full of wisdom with thousands of eyes. Just because he has had involvement with both villains doesn't mean he's evil. Miles was just eager to find purpose and gave up on law keeping because he didn't feel he was making a difference, whilst Lessie was just heartbroken and insane from ditching a spike.

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I think the argument that Ati messed with the copper minds is silly. Brandon Sanderson is a brilliant author; why make such a big deal over something that is no longer significant? Ati is dead, so having his legacy be the core focus of things is silly. Plus we have another god metal (possibly) in SoS that appears rusty.

Well as far as Stormlight is concerned one of the biggest mysteries involves a guy who died. Honor's legacy is very much important. The entire planet itself seems to still carry Adonalsium's influence . . . Sanderson even says that we shouldn't expect someone scheduled as a main focus character to not be dead before their own book even starts because he's perfectly willing to do that sort of thing.

And then there's Kelsier. Dead people are conspicuously important in the Cosmere.

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Well as far as Stormlight is concerned one of the biggest mysteries involves a guy who died. Honor's legacy is very much important. The entire planet itself seems to still carry Adonalsium's influence . . . Sanderson even says that we shouldn't expect someone scheduled as a main focus character to not be dead before their own book even starts because he's perfectly willing to do that sort of thing.

And then there's Kelsier. Dead people are conspicuously important in the Cosmere.

I agree that there have been deaths of influence, but this just doesn't seem like a good plot device. A villain who is dead isn't one who can be fought. And honour only has so much influence because his shard was shattered, and his investment in the world hung around. Ruin wasn't shattered: Ati was killed, and Ruin was taken by Sazed. Think about it. If it was Ati, what would that mean for Band of Mourning? "Oh, guys it turns out this was made up by someone who no longer has any significance. That third God metal just came out of nowhere in the end". Would be the biggest anticlimax. Also, Ati didn't know Sazed was going to take the shard, and he was pretty panicky when Vin starts beating him up. And the copper minds are a metal, if I might add, and I'm pretty sure metal blocks his influence. Could be wrong about that last bit though.

Edited by Lhun
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Metal doesn't do squat to his influence, if anything hemalurgy proves it would help him influence you if you've been impaled by metal. It's just to shiny to look at closely.

I'd rather not have Ati of all people be the culprit either, he's kind of a victim deserving rest, but honestly it's not all that silly to have a dead person meddle.

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  • 2 months later...

I don't think this has been mentioned, but has it been explicitly stated that Allomancy is of Preservation, Hemalurgy of Ruin, and Ferochemy of both combined? Because it seems strange to me that Preservation would be of power that is end-positive? Wouldn't it make sense that Preservation would be of an end-neutral power, like Ferochemy? So, perhaps Ferochemy is of Preservation, Hemalurgy of Ruin, and Allomancy of Trell. This would also explain to my why Miles, whose powers were super end-positive, would be a worshipper of Trell. What do you guys think?

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Yeah, I suppose Lerasium granting Allomancy throws a pretty big wrench in that theory, but it wouldn't be the first time ability granted by a god metal is strangely different from its god...

 

Edit: The only thing I can think of is that what we thought was Lerasium was actually Trellium, but that would be very unlikely and would throw out a lot of things that we have been taking as fact for a long time.  I still do think it's strange, though, that Preservation works with an end-positive power when there is an end-neutral power that also exists.

Edited by Iserguy
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Allomancy is end positive because the user's innate investiture is preserved, fully unchanged for the most part (the magic being due to external "boosting"). Feruchemy splits up parts of it away to be manipulated and stored, so it's still all there, but broken up and changed. Hemalurgy . . . tears it to pieces and suffers from decay issues.

Edited by natc
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Ok, so:
Allomancy, obviously, is of Preservation. The rational mind will see this. For, in the case of Allomancy, net power is gained. It is provided by an external source--Preservation's own body.

Harmony on Allomancy
 

But this seems off to me.  Could Harmony have been wrong? We know that he was not all-knowing.  His mind "expanded" but that only implies that he is able to logic things out better, not that he gains new knowledge, right?  To me the statement "Allomancy, obviously, is of Preservation...For, in the case of Allomancy, net power is gained." seems inherently wrong.  Why would a force of preventing change oversee an ability that gives power?  Even the way that the statement is structured seems to imply that he is "logic-ing" it out with the information he has, which is that there are only two Shards.  But what if there is or was another?

Edited by Iserguy
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Ok, so:

“[/size]Allomancy, obviously, is of Preservation. The rational mind will see this. For, in the case of Allomancy, net power is gained. It is provided by an external source--Preservation's own body.”[/size]

Harmony on Allomancy

 

But this seems off to me.  Could Harmony have been wrong? We know that he was not all-knowing.  His mind "expanded" but that only implies that he is able to logic things out better, not that he gains new knowledge, right?  To me the statement "Allomancy, obviously, is of Preservation...For, in the case of Allomancy, net power is gained." seems inherently wrong.  Why would a force of preventing change oversee an ability that gives power?  Even the way that the statement is structured seems to imply that he is "logic-ing" it out with the information he has, which is that there are only two Shards.  But what if there is or was another?

 

WoB

 

Eric Lake ()

Allomancy provides many very dramatic effects, which some have noted is not very much like Preservation. Could you walk me through how Allomancy is of Preservation, though it does dramatic, dynamic things?

Brandon Sanderson

One of the 'basics' of the magic in all of the worlds is that the energy of Shards can fuel all kinds of interactions, not just interactions based on their personality/role. I did this because otherwise, the Magics would all be extremely limited.

The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do. So, in Preservation's case, the magic is a gift—allowing a person to preserve their own strength, and rely upon the strength granted by the magic. While Hemalurgy has a huge cost, ending in net entropy.

(source)

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  • 2 weeks later...

That Rust part... well, rust is a sign of decay. Perhaps Trell / Odium is the the Shard of Decay? Grasping at straws here, probably. And that could be too close to Ruin. But then, they are different things...

Edited by Varangian
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That Rust part... well, rust is a sign of decay. Perhaps Trell / Odium is the the Shard of Decay? Grasping at straws here, probably. And that could be too close to Ruin. But then, they are different things...

Decay was originally a Shard in the unpublished chapters of Liar of Partinel. The idea was re-used in Mistborn to become Ruin, so Decay isn't going to be a Shard.

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Shards are seemingly omnipotent no matter which you look at, their intent only limits what actions they are as to take due to corruption of their personalities.

I mean what do Ruin and Preservation have anything to do with genetic/biological modification and terraforming?

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  • 1 year later...
  • 2 months later...
On 11/15/2011 at 11:58 PM, Argent said:

“I think I have the perfect religion for you,” Sazed said, his normally stoic face revealing a glimmer of eagerness. “It is called ‘Trelagism,’ after the god Trell. Trell was worshipped by a group known as the Nelazan, a people who lived far to the north. In their land, the day and night cycle was very odd. During some months of the year, it was dark for most

of the day. During the summer, however, it only grew dark for a few hours at a time.

“The Nelazan believed that there was beauty in darkness, and that the daylight was more profane. They saw the stars as the Thousand Eyes of Trell watching them. The sun was the single, jealous eye of Trell’s brother, Nalt. Since Nalt only had one eye, he made it blaze brightly to outshine his brother. The Nelazan, however, were not impressed, and preferred to worship the quiet Trell, who watched over them even when Nalt obscured the sky.”

Sazed fell silent. Vin wasn’t sure how to respond, so she didn’t say anything.

“It really is a good religion, Mistress Vin,” Sazed said. “Very gentle, yet very powerful. The Nelazan were not an advanced people, but they were quite determined. They mapped the entire night sky, counting and placing every major

star. Their ways suit you—especially their preference of the night. I can tell you more, if you wish.”

I think that those stars might be symbolic for the metals and their alloys (It is possible that Harmonium existed before the Catacendre). Nalt's (Harmony?) "eye," which is brighter than the "eyes" of Trell, might be symbolic of Harmonium/Ettmetal (which is brighter than all of the other metals) and the other metals, which are dimmer, and only glow in the cognitive realm. in addition, Harmonium can't be used for Allomancy or Hemalurgy (it explodes in water), which could be "the daylight was more profene?" i'm not sure, though.

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 4/4/2016 at 2:33 PM, Iserguy said:

Ok, so:
Allomancy, obviously, is of Preservation. The rational mind will see this. For, in the case of Allomancy, net power is gained. It is provided by an external source--Preservation's own body.

Harmony on Allomancy
 

But this seems off to me.  Could Harmony have been wrong? We know that he was not all-knowing.  His mind "expanded" but that only implies that he is able to logic things out better, not that he gains new knowledge, right?  To me the statement "Allomancy, obviously, is of Preservation...For, in the case of Allomancy, net power is gained." seems inherently wrong.  Why would a force of preventing change oversee an ability that gives power?  Even the way that the statement is structured seems to imply that he is "logic-ing" it out with the information he has, which is that there are only two Shards.  But what if there is or was another?

I think that this could be true, as-correct me if I'm wrong-Feruchemy has the potential to decrease entropy. one example is the potential for a perpetual motion machine by storing weight, because you could drop an object from a height, as it increases weight, onto a spring, and suddenly decreases weight, so that it goes further up than it started, and then repeat. The opposite also works, but it would only work once, it wouldn't do it infinitely. I also think that you could also decrease entropy by storing warmth in a cold room, and tapping it in a warm room, and increase the difference between them without releasing more energy than you transferred, and therefore decreasing entropy. I think that the reverse would not increase entropy as much, or at least not as much as the first way would decrease entropy, but I have no idea, really. If someone else wants to do the math and prove me wrong, go ahead, because I would really like to find out if I am right.

So, if you are just looking at entropy, Feruchemy is of Preservation, because it decreases entropy, and therefore counteracts Ruin. although this does not mean allomancy is not of Preservation, it does mean that Feruchemy is slightly more of Preservation than of Ruin. 

Edit: I wonder if this is related to Humans on Scadrial being more of Preservation than of Ruin? because harmony slightly is more Ruin than Preservation, the opposite of humans, does this mean that Feruchemy is of Humans? 

Edited by ethan_sedai
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