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Found 3 results

  1. Big theory about Unmade, Roshar Races, Spren and Shallan. Please, my weakest aspect of fandom is the knowledge released in WOBs. Help me and show me why I’m wrong. General Theory / Ideas: Based on the convolution and details regarding the surgebinding chart that Brandon has mentioned, plus the thematic relevance of numbers 9/10 on Roshar in regard to how Odium’s forces align with the others. And finally, culminating in a human/spren theory that informs my SHALLAN theory. Enjoy and let’s poke some holes. Part 1: Odium Unmakes True Spren · The First Desolation begins and the Oathpact is made to help humanity. · True Spren start forming bonds to make Knights Radiant · Seeing how effective this was for human forces, Odium takes action. The same way creating a Nahel Bond makes Spren more physical and human like, Unmaking them does the opposite…even distorting these Spren cultural/personal inclinations. · Now because this is happening on Roshar, there are natural effects and laws of the world that separates the new Unmade into categories (this relates back to the Surgebinding chart alluded to before. o There are a couple ways to divide the Unmade into categories (physical, cognitive, spiritual realms, etc.) But for this I made a 3X3 organizer with Odium, Cultivation and Honor on one side and Intelligent, Middling and Unintelligent on the top. Nine positions for nine Unmades. o Starting at the TOP position with Honor/Windrunners, then counting three for each group: Honor = Windrunners, Skybreakers, Dustbringers. Cultivation = Edgedancers, Lightweavers, Elsecallers. Odium = Lightspren, Peakspren, Mistspren. o Also, within each of these three groups, there should be ONE intelligent Unmade, ONE middling Unmade and one unintelligent Unmade. · Odium Unmade the 9 TRUE SPREN to create these Unmade: o Honorspren = Odium pulled an Honorspren into the physical world and they became Ba-ado Mishram. BAM was a leader for their side much like Windrunners. Also, people think BAM gave the singers forms to help Odiums forces, but if you look at it like BAM wanted to do it in spite of Odium…BAM kind of broke its oaths. This is the Intelligent Unmade for the first three positions. o Highspren = Odium pulled a Highspren into the physical world and they became Chemoarish. This Unmade has little known about them. I predict they will be a middling Unmade (not too smart or too primal). Skybreakers DO have the Surge of Division, so maybe Dustmother incorrectly became associated with the Dustbringers when in reality, it was connected to the Skybreakers. No idea how Highspren’s sense of law factors into Chemoarish yet. o Ashspren = Odium pulled a Ashspren into the physical realm and it became Re-shephir. Re-shephir is the Unintelligent Unmade for these three. Dustbringers are interested in breaking things apart to see them. As a result, Re-shephir was altered and now observes how things work rather than breaking them. This doesn’t count if humans kill, because she doesn’t see this as breaking, but imitating. o Cultivationspren = Odium pulled a Cultivationspren into the physical realm and it became Sja-anat. Sja-anat is the Intelligent Unmade for the next three spots on the Surgebinding chart. Cultivation spren are defined as fearful and trepidatious. Sja-anat became a daring Unmade who was brave enough to take secrets, pruning and planting secrets into the world to manipulate it as she tries to forge her own way in the world. o Cryptics = Odium pulled a Cryptic spren into the physical realm and it became Moelach. Moelach is the middle intelligence spren for these three on the chart. This is because he can observe and speak through dying people. Cryptics enjoy truths and lies, so Moelach gravitated towards future sight and relaying it as a FACT even if it wasn’t…thus confusing humanity. Also, Moelach is in the Cultivation region of the Surgebinding Chart, and Cultivation is deemed the most gifted at foresight. o Inkspren = Odium pulled an Inkspren into the physical world and it became Nergaoul. Inkspren are logical but when they were Unmade, they beame the Thrill…an illogical force of nature and the Unintelligent Unmade for this section of the Chart. (Also a little connection, but Inkspren can’t disappear in the physical realm, and The Thrill can’t disappear in the Cognitive realm.) o Lightspren = Odium pulled a Lightspren into the physical realm and it became Dai-gonarthis. (First, rhythms and sounds seem to be more natural to Roshar, thus Light investure may be more of Odium or humans, hence his section of the Chart and his most intelligent Unmade is Dai-gonarthis.) Lightspren seem to have the strongest connection to singers…they can go in gem hearts, hear rhythms and understand them, know how to subdue Voidspren. We don’t know much about Dai-gonarthis, but if it was the Unmade that scoured Aimia, Odium may be behind this to get at the Dawnshards or something else. The one note in COPPERMIND I saw is that Dai-gonarthis is classified as a mid-level Unmade, but I NEVER see that mentioned anywhere in text. And the reference COPPERMIND has doesn’t seem to imply that either in my opinion. o Peakspren = Odium pulled a Peakspren into the physical realm and it became Yelignar. We don’t know much about Peakspren other than they are described as Individualistic. This was corrupted when it became Unmade because now it can’t exist without another person to bond and use. Since Yelignar can communicate once inside someone, it is the Middle intelligence Spren for this section of the Chart. o Mistspren = Odium pulled a Mistspren into the physical realm and it became Ashertmarn. Ashertarn is a mindless Unmade focused on extreme emotion and passion because it is from Odium’s part of the Chart. Mistspren are open to enlightenment and truth, and as such were corrupted into being an Unmade who seeks no truth, only carnal pleasure. These ideas leave no room or explanation for BONDSMITHS. There is always something funky going on with them, and this is about Odium’s balance to the 9 surges of Roshar. Part 2: Ba-ado-Mishram’s Powerful Effects · The next part of this theory relies on one major tenant: we have NO idea the extent of BAM’s powers or the ramifications of what they did before their capture. · So following the timeline, Knights Radiant and Heralds are fighting and succeeding in Desolations until Odium pulls these Spren into the physical world, Unmakes them and now the Unmade are making it more difficult for humanity to catch up, Heralds break faster and humanity can’t recover. · The Heralds Abandon their oathpact. · One thing to note here, which will become important later, is that based on most visions we get from the past through Dalinar’s eyes, the peoples of Roshar at this point do not look as varied in their races and physical appearances as later in Rosharan history. · Ba-ado-mishram does SOMETHING that we know gives Listeners forms. o But what’s more important…is what happened to Spren. · Spren who were of the fourth ideal or lower became Deadeyes. · Spren of the FIFTH ideal were ripped from the cognitive realm and became humans. · Despite this, most orders of the Knights Radiant wanted to imprison or destroy BAM. · Fearing this would never allow the problem to fixed, Windrunners and Stonewards…two groups dedicated to protection and winning battles that seem unwinnable, they gave up their powers so as to protect their Spren from this happening again…since they wouldn’t be killing BAM. · Once the False Desolation was over and the Knights Radiant disbanded, a more modern version of society began to take place as Roshar drifted away from the Epoch Kingdoms and the Desolations. · The fifth ideal spren who became humans, spread across Roshar, mating with humans and creating the diverse races we now see on Roshar. o I’ve tried matching Spren descriptions with Racial descriptions on Roshar, allowing for some tweaking, but there are some interesting connections and theories…there are 9 True Spren and anywhere between 8-11 races on Roshar depending on how you break it down or look at it…also which history or historian you believe. (Including Sanderson here) · As a result of all this, any Spren who understood how Nahel bonding worked or what was going on in the physical realm either a.) became humans trapped in the physical realm, or B.) became a Deadeye who can’t communicate. This means the old, reluctant spren who stayed in the cognitive realm and didn’t want to bond became the only survivors (why Syl was special?). This gives them a biased and illogical recollection of these events. Part 3: So What’s this Mean? · So far this theory really focuses on World Building and history that puts certain things more into categories and profiles, rather than using it as a basis for a theory going forward. · Everything on my theory going forward hinges on what we DON’T KNOW about Ba-ado-mishram. · My prediction is that when BAM is released and does the thing that it does…along with the aid of an UNCHECKED Bondsmith (Ishar), she will transport the ENTIRE spren population into the physical realm…or rather combine them together…thus eliminating the Nahel bond as we know it in terms of using STORMLIGHT. · One theory I saw online that helped spark this idea was the fact that the 5 POV characters in the back half are characters with SPECIAL circumstances that will allow them powers WITHOUT a typical Nahel Bond. o Jasnah will use ADVANCED fabrial technology to perform her abilities. o Lift uses food to power her abilities. o Taln uses his Honorblade o Ash uses her Honorblade (but about this time in the series I see the connection being fixed in time for Ash to join ANOTHER Order, thus proving it can be done again) o Renarin uses Voidlight to access abilities. Part 4: One Last Tin-Foil Connection to SHALLAN/SPREN NOTE – I’m not going to refer to Veil, Radiant and Shallan in this part because the specific actions taken my each don’t affect this theory really. ALL Shallan’s refer to whatever Shallan is speaking at a particular part. · As I’m doing my re-read, the one major theory I’ve had for a few years now ALWAYS pops back into my head as more evidence appears. I’ve written about it before on here but have ALWAYS been refuted because of one specific WOB: o Shallan’s parents are really Shallan’s parents. · This is relevant because I’m almost POSITIVE we have seen someone on page who is or was a SPREN…only they don’t know it because they were pulled into the physical realm similar to Ishar has done and BAM has done if you believe this theory. · I think when Brandon mentions Shallan’s history in WOBs, he answers sometimes as in world interpretations. If Shallan’s parents THOUGHT or BELIEVED in her enough, or took the proper actions to BRING her into the physical realm, maybe they truly DO think of themselves as parents. · I don’t want to repost my ideas and evidence about Shallan being a spren become human…but some new ideas connecting this to her RoW journey popped up as I read. o This all comes specifically from chapter 26 in RoW (A Little Espionage) o Shallan starts the chapter not great, comes out and does OK, but by the end something really freaks her out bad and she retreats again. o When we first see Shallan, she is drawing and Cryptics are standing around her observing her. The same way someone sent on a spy quest is debriefed for intelligence by their commanding officers, they seem to be acquiring the knowledge of what Shallan has come to understand about people and humans. o Next, Shallan begins investigating Ishnah who got into something she didn’t understand or realize the extent of and is now over her head. § SHALLAN transforming into the Physical realm and not knowing it and being over her head. o Next Shallan goes to Beryl who says: “That I could walk away if I wanted to. Nothing was keeping me there. § Nothing is keeping Spren from doing this if they know how. SHALLAN is proof of this. o Next, Beryl says: the almighty’s greatest blessing to humans, the ability to change. Sometimes all we need is a seed. § SHALLAN changes from Spren to human (not sure about the seed) o Next, Vathah says: Figure if I learn to Lightweave well enough, Maybe I’ll turn into someone else…” § SHALLAN is a Lightweaver and she changed from Spren to human. o The NEXT LINE After that quote, Shallan thinks: That stabbed her straight through. § It’s because she sort of remembers this… o Finally, when Vathah says it again that he would like to be someone new…Shallan replies with this! “YOU CAN DO IT WITHOUT LIGHTWEAVING” § Because she knows she has done it…become someone new. A human from a spren. o At the end of the chapter, Veil specifically says that something Shallan thought in the last few pages was about to stir the truth and her memories… § But SHALLAN ties herself in a knot and shuts down. TL:DR: · Surgebinding Chart gives clues to how Odium took the 9 TRUE SPREN and Unmade them; using this as justification to attempt it, Ba-ado-mishram attempts this as well and screws up the world by bringing over bonded Spren and killing bonded Spren when she connected to Listeners. This led to different Races on Roshar and gives evidence to my theory that Shallan is really a Spren turned human and doesn’t know it. PS – I have another big piece I’m working on that says Szeth was also a Spren, maybe Nale’s, before he was brought into the physical realm as well. (fifth book based on Szeth would be the place to present this.) Let me know what you think.
  2. So we know that Kaladin (Windrunner) is bonded to an honorspren and Lift (Edgedancer) is bonded to a cultivationspren, and that all the Nahel-bonding spren exist on a spectrum / continuum from Honor to Cultivation. Other than the Windrunners and Edgedancers, and the Nightwatcher/Stormfather who are 2 of the 3 Bondsmith spren, do we know from the text or WOB which Orders are "more Cultivation" and which are "more Honor"? (I have a theory about the Shard - Surge - Order associations being shown on the Double Eye chart, but don't want to post a theory that's disproved by stuff we already know.)
  3. I think the Surges associated with each Knight Radiant Order, as well as their positions on the Double Eye diagram ("Surgebinding chart"), show which are "more of Honor", which are "more of Cultivation", and which are a more nearly even mix of the two. What we know: -Syl (a Windrunner spren) is an honorspren. The Windrunner surges are Adhesion and Gravitation. -Wyndle (an Edgedancer spren) is a cultivationspren. The Edgedancer surges are Abrasion and Progression. -The Bondsmith spren include the Stormfather (who is "of Honor") and the Nightwatcher (who is "of Cultivation). These spren are unique & of exceptional power/status. -The Lightweavers do not swear Oaths after the First Ideal, but advance by personally relevant truths instead. The chart: http://coppermind.net/w/images/TWoK_Front_Endsheet.jpg The Surges: Well, that's interestingly vague. There's two ways to read the "not a codified part" - either that these powers aren't Surges at all, or that they aren't separated / distinguished from other Surges the way the God Metals are in the Metallic Arts. If Progression and Adhesion "could be considered as such", that does imply the Surges proper are meant. I'd suggest that it's actually all four top and bottom Surges - Tension, Adhesion, Progression, and Illumination - which are the purer expressions of the Shards; one directly, one more symbolically. Adhesion is Honor as bonds, Tension is rigidity - symbolic of fixity of purpose. Progression is Cultivation as growth; Illumination is knowledge and art. The Orders: I believe the "top of the chart" - Stonewards, Bondsmiths, and Windrunners - are of Honor; the "bottom of the chart" - Lightweavers, Truthwatchers, and Edgedancers - are of Cultivation; and the "sides" - Elsecallers, Willshapers, Skybreakers, and Dustbringers - are closer to even (with the Willshapers and Skybreakers inclining to Honor and the Elsecallers and Dustbringers inclining to Cultivation). Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that their spren are strictly of that shard. Surely honorspren and cultivationspren are; but the Nightwatcher is a spren of Cultivation, and yet the Bondsmiths almost certainly are an Honor-aligned order. "Bonds" seem to be absolutely core to the Intent of Honor. Rather, I think the specific positions on the chart are significant. Windrunners (Honorspren) and Edgedancers (Cultivationspren) are on the right side. These "right corner" Orders' spren are the purest expressions of the Shards. Lightweavers (Cryptics) and Stonewards (???) are on the left side. The Lightweavers are interesting because of their Truths; IMO this is an expression of Cultivation as "personal growth". Extrapolating, the Stonewards must represent Honor in some unique way, but their spren aren't necessarily 100% Honor. I'd further speculate that like the Cryptics, the Stonewards' spren will have a name that doesn't include "spren". Bondsmiths (unique spren) and Truthwatchers (???) are in the center. We know far less here, but the Bondsmiths' bond to the unique superpowerful spren suggests that there must be something very special about the Truthwatchers, as does Renarin's foresight combined with the Very Big Deal made about foresight in Vorinism. With a wild leap, I'd suggest that these central Orders are in some way critical to tying the whole KR System together, keeping it functioning.
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