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  1. In OB we learn the apparent reason for the Recreance: Humans had been the original Voidbringers and would eventually destroy Roshar by using surges, as we hear from the Stormfather himself: The thing is, it does not make a lot of sense. A: They could have chosen a way less dramatic exit. They could have broken their bonds and still retain the Shardplates and Blades. This way their order would have remained as a powerful political institution to prepare humankind for the next desolation. Or in general to keep order in Roshar. B: There has been one Knight Radiant order around for 4000 years, they did not destroy Roshar and possibly never will. Therefore, behold my grand theory! The Radiants abandoned their oaths because they realized, humans are Odium`s children. This needs a bit of explanation. So let`s back off a bit shall we? Rosharan came from Ashyn/ the Tranquiline Halls, which they destroyed by using Surges. They had access to these Surges but they were likewise under Odium`s influence. I think it is likely Odium created Rosharan humans on Ashyn Edit: This is definitly not true as seen by WoB below quoted by RShara. Anyways, it is apparent Odium has a deep bond to Rosharan humans as he speaks to Dalinar and Taravangian: It is made clear in Dalinar`s passage explicitly and in T.`s implicitly that old Rayse regards Rosharan humans as his children. Maybe this is a special trait he brings to the power of Odium. He does not want to destroy them, he wants to corrupt Honors influence and ethics and bring them to his side. We know for some time that the question of whether you are on Honors or Odium`s side is not as much about your ends, but about what means you are willing to employ to get there. Journey before destination is Honor`s path. Passion before anything else Odium`s. Now, if we look around Roshar at the beginning of SA, we see Odium`s influence everywhere, Honor`s almost nowhere. Alethi culture is all about game, the thrill, the glory, the victory. The codes of Honor are followed by exactly no one except House Kholin. The Way of Kings used to be a handbook for any ruler, almost nobody is reading it in our time. The Vorin church reveres the Almighty, but does not put ethical, “honorable” restraints on anyone. In fact in Kholinar we see that one Ardent paving the way for the arrival of the Unmade. The Shin follow the code of their tradition too much. So much so they miss the time, for which they were created in the first place. They make Szeth Truthless for this. In Azir it is almost the same. The protocol has become so elaborate, it makes responding to challenges almost impossible. Powerful groups in both countries only care about staying in power, not about how this power is exercised. And then there is the enslavement of an entire race, about which nobody cares about…. I can think of two explanations for this horrible state of affairs. 1) Humans on Roshar as Odium`s children are more drawn to Odium than they are to Honor. 2) It was Odium`s subtle influence on his children over 4000 years that created this; Or a combination of the two. This is the explanation for point A). If the Radiants had stayed as a powerful force on Roshar, their Order would have been corrupted by the shortcomings of human nature or Odium`s influence. They would have become like the Skybreakers or the Vorin church: Organizations corrupted beyond recognition. Odium would only need to ask the Bondsmiths to release him end they would have freed him. By terminating the Order they gave future Radiants the chance to stand up to Odium. It is likely that the enslavement of the Listeners gave the deciding impulse to make them realize they were becoming a tool of Odium. Regarding point B), I propose it is not exactly Surgebinders onto themselves that are destroying worlds. It is Surgbinders under Odiums influence doing it, as it happened on Ashyn and was going to happen on Roshar with corrupted KR orders. The Knights realized that they were the children of Odium/ Voidbringers. Therefore they had to accept that their order would be corrupted, even if they had just abandoned the spren and carried on without them. The Skybreakers realized they would be immune to Odium`s influence, if they`d be completely emotionless. This in turn perverted the intent of their order.
  2. This episode on Ashspren’s Absolutely Not Serious Theories (AANST... good ring to it)… We all see Stick as a possible bit of comic relief during a time period in which we see Shallan discovering more about herself— funny content, but serious Cosmere ideals. However, Stick might be more than it appears. Firstly, it is important to remember what Shai from the Emperor’s Soul said about everything, even inanimate objects: everything views itself as something. With this logic from what I like to call the “Tables Have Feelings Too Lecture,” we can infer that Stick, everyone’s favorite character from Words of Radiance, must view itself as something. Therefore, Stick has its own patterns of thought, and must be able to think for itself. Nobody tells Stick to be a stick, Stick tells itself to be a stick. Thus, when Shallan tries to get Stick to change in Shadesmar, Stick proceeds to tell her what he sees himself as: a stick. Shallan tries to force it to change, telling Stick that it is actually fire, but she does not understand that Stick has made up its mind. But, where does this lead on a larger scale? Well, Stick is actually very helpful, and may have been able to predict the future. We start back at Stick’s signature line: “I am a stick.” It tells this to Shallan repeatedly, as if it wants her to know something. And indeed, it does. Stick wants Shallan to know to stay true to herself. It is very self-aware, and tells Shallan to be the same. However, Shallan stumbles upon Stick, she is not having struggles with her identity yet— this takes place later in Words of Radiance, and is seemingly resolved at the end of Oathbringer. This is where the part about telling the future comes in. Stick is warning her to be more self-aware at the moment, so that in the future, she would not have as many problems. Now, we see at different points in Oathbringer that Odium can see, and provide visions of, possible futures. This is shown through Renarin and his corrupted spren, Glys. Is Stick’s advice for the future and Odium’s abilities just a coincidence? I think not.
  3. With the revelation that Odium could be seen as Passion, and the older theory that Odium+Honor would be Justice... Honor focuses on creating bonds, and Odium possibly being Passion, could their joining create... Love?
  4. So this kinda bothered me in the book and I don't understand why Odium would accept Dalinar's challenge. When the challenge was introduced in earlier books I thought it was more of a end series situation. In the visions The Almighty tells Dalinar to make Odium think can lose, to vex him so he would agree to a contest of champions. Why would Odium agree and try to appoint Dalinar as his champion? Let's just recap: Odium has been on Roshar for approximately 7000 years, right? He had almost won before because he had run down human civilization. He had broken the Heralds causing them to abandon Taln. Since then the protectors, the Radiants, had forsaken their oaths leaving no remnants to remind humans of the incoming fate. Now the desolation has started and nobody, including the world's foremost scholar Jasnah, knows all of the incoming dangers. As it seems there's several Unmade that have yet to be freed, most of Odium's best fighters have yet to be awakened, and the Heralds that were supposed to be there to help them are long insane and useless. Why would Odium get impatient and agree to a battle of champions when he could just wait for a few years, at most, to have his forces just steamroll the unprepared planet? They couldn't have "vexed him" already. I understand the benefit of cutting off the head of the resistance, but considering the massive amount of risk involved in losing, why not just wait?
  5. So in (one of) the climactic scenes in Oathbringer, Dalinar does what Honor suggested in his visions to him and gets Odium to agree to a "contest of champions" for the fate of Roshar. A few questions come to mind. First and most basic - are the terms of the contest what Dalinar imagines? Odium phrases it as "As Bondsmith, you can offer this deal" - as if there were a standing clause in what binds him to Roshar that specified that a Bondsmith do it, or more likely (since the KRs were not created by Honor and the Order of Bondsmiths would not have existed before the Desolations began), that Dalinar is bonded to the Stormfather who is the "heir" to Honor as the biggest Splinter of him, the spren that was tasked with passing on the visions from Honor to a chosen recipient (Gavilar, at first, then Dalinar). Clearly Dalinar was thinking of the Alethi dueling tradition of single combat, with specified stakes. But Odium's agreement could be read one of two ways - agreement with the stakes that Dalinar just laid out ("your freedom if we win, our lives if humans win"), or agreement to a "contest of champions" according to some earlier compact where Dalinar is unaware of the details, including what exactly form the contest would be. Secondly - who is humanity's champion? Dalinar assumed it would be himself, as the issuer of the challenge, but then Odium went and designated him as his own champion - and Dalinar recognized that indeed, he had been so groomed for much of his life. So now what? By definition, no matter what Dalinar does, it would be a tie if he were BOTH champions in the contest. And he never named humanity's champion - his request, agreed to by Odium, was just to have the deciding contest at all. Odium naming him has his own champion suggests that Dalinar was "in play", which would also mean Dalinar could still pick someone else to be humanity's champion. Thirdly, who is Odium's champion, now? Dalinar's refusal to "give Odium his pain" was him refusing to fall under Odium's control, the way Amaram and Moash did. Does that mean Odium will have to choose someone else, or are there "no backsies" on his choice, and it's just too bad that his appointed champion is going to be working to lose on his behalf? Or... Did Odium technically choose Dalinar? Re-reading that scene, he never actually names Dalinar as his champion. He only points out that Dalinar fits all the criteria as to who he groomed to be his champion, as Nergaoul, The Thrill, consumes him, replaying all the gleefully violent acts from his past. Odium never throws that Pokeball and says, "Dalinar Kholin, I choose you!" And finally, when will the contest occur? When Odium has his little chat with Taravangian, he sees that the Diagram had predicted this scenario: How "Super-Genius Mr. T", "without access to Fortune, or the Spiritual Realm" as Odium noted, even knew about the possibility of a "battle of champions" between Odium and Dalinar is breathtaking. Odium does not dispute this assessment - which is not quite the same as admitting it is true, but let's take it as such. So, it is a "battle", which surely means combat mortal of some kind. It seems that Odium is bound by his agreement to the contest and its being binding, but the conditions are still left open - i.e., who the champions are - and that if he ever met with Dalinar again, he could force the deal to be completed. My call: Kaladin vs. Vyre/Moash. And... Storm it... Maybe Kaladin talks to him like he did to Amaram about how he still hurts... And Moash takes back his pain from Odium? Can he be redeemed? Or is that too obvious a storyline? It would probably depend on how we would get there in the next two books. What's that, you say? There are ten books in the Stormlight Archive? Yeah, but the way Oathbringer moved things along, I'm starting to suspect the "battle of champions" with Odium is the climactic element of "SA Part I" (Books 1-5), and the jump forward in time to the second quintet (?) is to represent how long it takes for the "final" conflict - possibly much wider in Cosmere scope than just Roshar - to bubble up and play out.
  6. Did Roshar originally have Spren? Sylphrena indicates 4 genders of spren. 2 for the Parsh, 2 for the human. I don't think Roshar was formed like other Shardic worlds. No other Cosmere world has spren like Roshar, so far. It would seem that the Parsh thought of their objects being Malen and Femalen, voila SPREN! Perhaps? Maybe? Did the way they think or sing create the spren way back then? Shard worlds seem to have the 3 realms setup. Roshar wasn't created by a Shard (that I'm aware of.) The way I understand the history is that Odium saw the existing native Parsh and decided to become their god. He got invested to that Solar System. Along comes the human Voidbringers to settle around Shinovar (initially.) Honor and Cultivation either settled with them or decided to call it home at a later time. Introducing Honor's high storms, Odium's Everstorm (old in design) and the Cultivation's/Nightwatcher's Old Magic. When I read TWoK, I assumed Honors' death and Splintering brought about the spren. I have now been proven false. So, I suspect Roshar was similar to an Earth like world and topography. The Parsh evolved naturally and all was pleasant until Odium rolled on in. My question is HOW and WHEN do you think Roshar got spren? A certified timeline of these early events would be great to read. Thank you.
  7. Prescript: My apologies if this Idea has already been put forward by someone else, I checked but probably missed something. Most of what I say is likely common knowledge at this point, but my aim is to show how it is useful to Odium specifically. What we Know: Odium can be freed by someone wielding a large splinter of Honor Fused can be revived in the Everstorm Moash's dagger stole something from Jezrien The dagger works like Hemalurgy, but probably isn't Fused are gathering shardblades Sja-anat corrupts spren Theory: Odium will forge(or else acquire) a new splinter of Honor, give it to one of his minions(or willing participant), and be set free. With the death of Honor's vessel, Odium has opened a new win condition for himself that he did not have in previous Desolations. This condition was shown in Oathbringer when Dalinar told Odium to simply leave, to which Odium's answer was that he could and would if Dalinar willingly and deliberately wished him to. This is possible, according to Odium, because Dalinar has bonded the Stormfather(who has absorbed some more of Honor's investiture after he shattered). So, I think it is safe to assume that any one possessing a splinter of Honor of equal or greater magnitude to that of the Stormfather could free Odium. The question then becomes: How will Odium obtain such a large amount of Honor's investiture? Fortunately for Odium, smaller pieces of Honor are flying(literally in some cases) left, right, and center. Most notably among all the things that contain Honor's essence are the Heralds and their Honoblades. These are by far the largest splinters of Honor with the exception of the Stormfather and maybe the Sibling(the Nightwatcher is probably more of a splinter of Cultivation and therefor not as useful). So, I propose that the reason why Odium is killing Heralds is not because he is worried about the Fused getting stuck again, as the Everstorm may or may not allow them to remain on Roashar indefinably, but because he needs their pieces of Honor. The process of extracting a Herald's fragment of Honor has then already been made manifest by Moash killing Jezrien with the special dagger. The glowing light in the dagger's gemstone is likely Jezrien's splinter of Honor in this case. Odium is looking for the most pure essence of Honor he can get, so that other intents(like Cultivation's) do not interfere with his plan. To that end, he needs a way to divide the souls/spirit webs of his enemies into their Honor and Cultivation components. Hemalurgy would certainly be useful in this scenario, but Odium needs something with a smaller chance of failure. Thus the dagger is possibly a fabrial wielding the surge of spiritual division. All the benefits of Hemalurgy, but none of the hassle. The smaller pieces of Honor can then be mended by spiritual adhesion or tension if necessary(Dalinar or someone with Dalinar's specific powers may be needed). Now Odium needs to kill enough Hearlds to equal the power of the Stormfather, no easy feat. Odium could probably get the majority of them(Nale and Ishar I'm looking at you), but sooner or later the remaining Heralds and our new Radiants will wise up and band together(specifically Ash and Taln). So, Odium needs a backup plan. That plan is the Fused gathering shardbaldes and Sja-anat corrupting living spren. I think this is part of the reason the Fused are occupying places like Celebrant in the cognitive realm. If Odium can't have all the Heralds, he will replace them with all the dead spren and the living spren of the places he is occupying. Thereby proposing a moral dilemma to the forces of Honor: the lives of a few Heralds or the lives of sprenkind. I hear Tukar is nice this time of year, Shinovar too...
  8. About half a year ago, I posted up a thread in Cosmere Theories called Narrowing Down the Last Shards (below) in which we as a forum posited many excellent ideas. It's long but worth the read as much of what I say in this post I derived from there. I have since changed my opinion with some ideas I'm sure you all will appreciate and tear up as you please. Having said that, in this thread I will go a step further. Not only will we try to discern the remaining six Shards, but we will ask what we can do with that information, and theorize what kind of magic, worlds, and people those Shards may have created. Thus, I present to you The Rest of the Shards and Where to Find Them. So as before, here are some things we think we know, and some suppositions, before I get to the List: Shards are all godly attributes, possibly based on the Judeo/Christian god, Adonai (for which Adonalsium was named). Shards do not have perfect pairs or opposites Shards may also be considered to have many opposites There is a Shard (besides Ambition) that has not Invested in a planet. Aforementioned Shard wants to hide and survive because it is a wise decision. Survival is not the capitalized intent, and is only tangentially related to the capitalized Intent. Shards' Intents, by the definition of the word, are active. They have a goal. Odium is the most dangerous of the Shards. Ambition was #1 on Odium's hit list, which means that there are no other Shards which he would find more dangerous than Ambition. Hoid and Frost know what they're talking about. I know I missed a few things that I wanted to say. Feel free (as before) to correct me, or add to the things we know. Most of that is from WoB, and some supposition, and was derived from previous responses. Part 1: The Rest of the Shards: Disclaimer #1: Not all of the ideas for Shard names were mine, and I am not claiming that they are original. I appreciate all the thought you wonderful people have put into this, and thank you for broadening my mind on this subject. I will ping some of the contributors of the original thread in the references in Part 3. Disclaimer #2: As I mentioned above, Adonalsium is likely based off of the Judeo/Christian God. I am a believer, and some of the Intents are based on my views of God. They may not match your own, and that's okay. Please do not take my posited Intents or arguments thereof as me trying to convert you. The Intents are speculation based on my beliefs, Brandon's beliefs, and are just as valid in this discussion as your own. I hope that we can discuss this subjectively. Disclaimer #3: This will be a lengthy post, and I don't think I will hide anything in spoilers to shorten it. If it looks too long too read, fret not. I won't be insulted if you just want to skim through the list at first, and simply read the parts that interest you. If you do wish to respond to something, however, please take the time to read my opinion on it, otherwise, I may just quote stuff I already said back at you. I don't mean to be insulting if I do so, so don't take it as snark. Disclaimer #4: I recognize the possibility that Brandon may not have finalized all of the Shards Intents as of yet, which would render all of this rather useless. But of course, this is the Shard where we can discuss any theories no matter how baseless they are! Brandon, if you're reading this and I'm right about everything, I promise I didn't break into your personal wiki, and if I correctly guess future magic systems or worlds, I promise not to say that they're my ideas. I'll just be glad that I called it. As before, Shards we know are in Green, and Shards we don't know are in Red. This does not mean that they are in the correct groupings, however. This is all speculation. The four quadrants that I believe make up the being Adonalsium are as follows: Creation, Personality/Authority, Action, and Divinity. I believe we can put all sixteen Shards into groups of four, as opposed to pairs as I originally thought. Group 1: Creation Many have spoken (in-universe and out) that Preservation and Ruin are the forces of creation. This is not wrong, but I don't think that's the be-all and end-all of the Creation force that is Adonalsium. Some of these Intents refer not only to the physical creation of nature, but actions and mindsets about people. (Cultivation or Sanctification of followers for example) Cultivation: Growth, Creation, Sanctification Cultivation embodies positive change with the intent of creating something better. It can destroy things if necessary in order to make something better out of it, or in its place. Preservation: Guarding, Stasis, Immutability Preservation cannot create anything new on its own; it can only act to preserve what is already in place. Preservation also points to the god attribute of immutability, the unchanging nature of God. Ruin: Destruction, Decay, Entropy Ruin's end goal is to break everything down to its most basic parts. Historically, Ruin was able to help create things, only if it let him destroy more things afterward. Brandon has remarked that this would make Ruin compatible with Cultivation, which supports this theory. Chaos: Neutrality, Quiescence, Abeyance, "Letting the chips fall where they may" As I mentioned in the "Things we think we know" section, Shards need to have an active goal in order to fulfill the logical requirements of the word "Intent". For this reason, I am not totally sold on any of the above-selected words, but more the overarching goal of them collectively. The obvious hole in the quadrant is the art of negative neutrality, in the same way as Preservation is a positive neutrality. However, as Intent denotes activity, it cannot truly be neutral. Thus, I settled on the word "Chaos". Group 2: Personality/Authority Adonalsium was seen as God in the cosmere (source: Hoid & Frost). We need the personality of God (based on the Judeo/Christian God as above) as well as his right to rule if we want to fulfill all of the necessary components that make up who they are. Dominion: Controlling, Ruling, Conquering This is the type of power Adonalsium would have by divine right, similar to a king or a god. Charisma: Leadership, Magnetism This is the type of power that would make Adonalsium worthy of being served. What good is the authority of a god if they are not worthy? It is a hole that needs filling, and it contrasts the other names in this quadrant. I know many people aren't sold on the name; neither am I. But it is the best word I've found to communicate the broadness of the overarching Intent of the hole in this quadrant. Devotion: Servitude, Care, Love, Mercy I feel the need to point out that Devotion is a fairly broad definition, which includes many other Intents many people have posited for names of Shards (including Love). Brandon himself called it Love before he changed it to Devotion. This is the reason why I do not have "Love" in any of the quadrants, as it is included in Devotion. I used to have this Shard paired with Odium as I had asked Brandon if they were opposites. His reply was that they "could be considered as such", however, Odium does not fit with this quadrant, so I abandoned that line of thought. I may have just left too much wiggle room in what we consider as opposites, as people have pointed out before. Autonomy: Independence, Freedom This Shard point's to the godly attribute of independence, god's self-sufficiency in that they do not require anything. Autonomy is a weird Shard with a highly...debatable Intent, which has led to some confusion in the past on how we can define a Shard's Intent. The consensus is that the Vessel is able to act on their interpretation of the Intent, and that the Intent may change slightly as a result, depending on the Vessel. This may be what Brandon meant when he said that Adonalsium could have been split in different ways. Group 3: Action Going again back to the nature of Shardic Intent, Adonalsium is a god of action. He was a creation-force that had a goal in mind, and this should be true for the Shards as well. The four below Intents cover most, if not all, of the main actions the Judeo/Christian god. Endowment: Giving, Mercy With love and care, god would be one who gives to his followers in order that they use their gifts for his glory (see: Spiritual gifts). Separated from the context of other Shards and their respective Intents, Endowment becomes what we see in Warbreaker. In conjunction with the other Shards in this grouping and the others, I believe that Endowment includes mercy and forgiveness, though there is an argument that they may be a Shard on their own. Retribution: Punishment, Justice, Vengeance A favourite of many on this thread, and one I used to oppose, I have come to see that this Shard would contrast Endowment (including mercy), and Honor, rather than being part of Honor (though that argument is still intact), Retribution is an action the Judeo/Christian god does quite a lot of, separated by his promises (Honor). Ambition: Taking, Improving, Acting If there is a Shard that is this grouping, Ambition would be the one (In which case I would replace it with Mercy). The only reason I say that is because Ambition (though involving action) is more of a mindset, like Odium (which would put it in the "Divinity" section below). However, it does make a good contrast with Endowment as well, and somewhat fills in the hole of a god demanding something from his followers. This works if we say Ambition involves sanctification of followers more than an improvement on God's behalf (which wouldn't be a godly attribute). Honor: Promising, Covenant We see both Honor and the Judeo/Christian god bind themselves to their promises, as well as expect it of their subjects. Group 4: Divinity The final grouping is the overarching theme of what makes god or Adonalsium divine (see: Hoid & Frost). It is, in fact, the most undisputed necessity of godhood. I will explain my choices below. Bear in mind that this is the one with the most unknowns, as there are still three Shards unaccounted for in my pattern. Therefore, this includes my suppositions on there needing to be a Shard of Wisdom/Enlightenment, and a Shard including Mystery, which are both heavily needed in a god figure like the Judeo/Christian god. Enlightenment: Wisdom, Knowledge, Omnipotence, Ingenuity Though all Shards have some measure of Omnipotence, we would be amiss to not include a Shard of Wisdom. It is my belief that this Shard is the Survival Shard that wants to hide, not Investing in a planet for fear of Odium, acknowledging that it is the wisest action for self-preservation. I included the possibility above of Ingenuity, as Brandon may have slipped and confirmed it accidentally, though that is a measure of semantics and debatable. Odium: "Divine Hatred", Wrath, Envy And we come to the villain of the Cosmere... I put Odium in this grouping because of Hoid's words: "He bears God's own divine hatred, separated from the virtues which gave it context". Notice his use of the word "divine". In this grouping, if he was still part of Adonalsium, Divine Hatred is undoubtedly a big part of God's divinity and holiness. Enigma: Mystery, Paradox As I mentioned above, Mystery is a big part of what separates God from mortals. I chose Enigma because it sounds cooler it's more encompassing than Mystery. It definitely plays a role in Divinity and makes a good pairing with Enlightenment. I say "Paradox" because I know people will bring it up based on the obscure "Alcatraz Shard WoB" and it somewhat fits. Purity: Holiness, Chastity Admittedly, this is the Shard I am less sure on. I include it because Holiness is perhaps the largest part of divinity, and it gives Odium the context Hoid talks about. Also, there is a mysterious planet called Purity in the Threnodite system that doesn't follow the pattern of funeral songs. As I mentioned in the write-up for Ambition, it's possible that it belongs in this slot in Divinity, leaving Mercy in its place in Action. However, doing so would leave Odium without those virtues to give it context in the subject of Divinity, and would leave both groupings somewhat unbalanced. Edit 1: Added Part 2 in spoiler below (hopefully):
  9. I interpret OB’s text and the SLA plot to mean Odium intends human genocide. Maybe human death is a necessary part of Honor and Cultivation’s destruction, but that doesn’t explain what binds Odium to Roshar. Other explanations for human genocide, like Rayse hates humans or Divine Hatred must destroy, don’t work for me narratively. Instead, I theorize humans carry Odium Investiture they brought with them from Ashyn. I speculate Honor bound that Investiture to them. I think human genocide returns Odium’s Investiture to its source. Does Odium Want Rosharan Humans Dead? Desolations alone show Odium wants to eradicate humans. IMO, his negotiation with Taravangian at the end of OB confirms his goal (Chapter 122, Kindle pp. 1216-1217, emphasis added): Odium insists on few human survivors. He threatens to walk when Taravangian rejects Odium’s counter-offer. He coerces Taravangian’s acceptance. I trust Taravangian’s compassion: If he feels humankind is doomed, he believes it. I think Odium’s deal may save only now-living Kharbranth humans: “any humans who have been born into it, along with their spouses.” Odium omits children. He might have added, “or those who will be born…” If that’s the “spirit” of Odium’s deal, Rosharan humanity may end in a generation. Those are my reasons to think Odium wants to eradicate Roshar’s humans. Why would he make that his goal? What Does Human Genocide Gain Odium? Rosharan humans come from Ashyn (mostly). That planet’s magic derives from magical microbes: “Viruses and bacteria, various strains of them, have evolved in-line with the investiture on the planet to grant you a magical ability when you catch the disease…” Ashyn’s Investiture is presumably Odium’s. @Vortaan theorizes Stormlight makes humans disease-resistant and deprives them of their Ashyn magic. Brandon says Ashyn magical abilities end when the human host is healthy again: "You can fly as long as you have the common cold, but when you get over it, you can't anymore.” But does Odium’s Investiture disappear when the host is healthy and the microbe dies? The microbe’s death may end the magical ability, but the Investiture may remain inside the human host. That would leave every Ashyn human who ever got sick holding Odium’s Investiture. If they can pass that Investiture to their progeny, every living Roshar human probably holds Odium inside them. I theorize Honor traps Odium by binding that Investiture to humans. Maybe Honor first restricts humans to Shinovar to ban them from Stormlight. All is well until humans proliferate Roshar. Now Odium the Broken One wants his Investiture back. That’s my explanation (for now). I welcome yours.
  10. Now, I know this really isn't true, but just pretend it is for a minute and let's see how far we can take it. I was just making a list of the ten types of pancakes in Yeddaw for someone, when I realized something suspicious about them pancakes. There are 9 physical pancakes and 1 imaginary/spiritual pancake. Now, these here numbers sound just a bit familiar. Yes, indeed, it is now quite obvious that these pancakes are a representation of Odium and his 9 Unmade! In Oathbringer we learn a lot about the nine Unmade, powerful spren of Odium. Perhaps I can explain it through this overly complex and detailed chart which only the wisest of the wise and discerningfulest of the discerningfuls will be able to understand: 1 imaginary pancake - Odium* 9 other pancakes - 9 Unmade* *Storms, just look at the complexity! It all becomes clear now, the universe explained through pancakes! But I am sure there is still much to learn and discover, which is why I ask for you, fellow sharders, to help me in the quest for evidence and information to support this theory. Perhaps you could help ascribe certain pancakes to certain Unmade, or find other things which support this theory. I have a list of pancakes here: I dunno what we can find, but I can assure you that this will become the strongest theory to ever pervade the Shard!
  11. It’s been stated that prior to arriving in the Rosharan System, Odium paid a visit to Sel to check out the scenery, kill a couple of Gods, usual touristy stuff. By what I can gather, this happened quite some time before the Reod, and predates Shu-Keseg, the parent religion of Shu- Dereth, leaving a lot of time in the aftermath for the events of that interaction to fall into legend and myth. Brandon has also said that if you looked hard enough you could find the influence of Odium on Sel still. During the events of Elantris, it is said that Jadeth is an old pagan God who cared for the stones, but Shu-Dereth thrust him into their mythology when it split from Shu-Keseg proper. Considering the connection between Odium and Stone in stormlight archive, this is at least plausible. This isn’t to say that Shu-Dereth worships Odium directly, or that Dakhor Magic is of his power, as their religion and culture obviously fit better with Dominion. However, over time images of deities can shift and blend. Add to this, that when Hrathen meets Dilaf, he is careful to note his PASSION and basically states that if one can use that passion to achieve the desired Dominion, then it would be a tool he would use carefully but willingly. Dilaf’s motives in the story are driven much more by hatred than domination, and so it makes me wonder about how deep the influence of Odium goes in Fjordell culture.
  12. Following the most recent episode of Shardcast, I brain spewed forth this idea. As we have not yet seen Sja-anat in physical form, since we have not yet seen her features (her form is a black shadow iwith glowing white eyes), and since she seems to display not only sapience, but also independence of thought and action, is it possible that she is powerful among the unmade? If she has enough power, could she manifest a physical form? Since Odium was preparing Dalinar to fall, could Evi have been Sja-anat? Drawing from the podcast, if we assume that Sja-anat can resurrect dead spren, then it could be that Adolin's communication with his shard blade is inherited from his Unmade mother. This would also make Renarin a son of Sja-anat, and could potentially make him more susceptible to bonding to one of her corrupted spren. His sickness could also be a result of him possessing mixed DNA, or a mix of innate investiture. It also makes sense that Odium would use Sja-anat, posing as Evi, to push Dalinar further over the edge and make him more susceptible to The Thrill. She could do this by constantly challenging his values, or by acting completely out of character and doing something brash, like get captured by an enemy side.
  13. “[T]here shall be a great cry in all the land of Egypt, such as there has not been before and such as shall never be again.” - Exodus 11:6 The Wandersail story (WoK, Chapter 57) has a lot to teach us. To recap, Derethil goes looking for the “Origin of Voidbringers.” He finds the Uvara, “People of the Great Abyss,” who live on some islands surrounding a whirlpool. The Uvara brutally murder anyone who makes the slightest mistake, as they believe their emperor commands. When they discover that the emperor had been dead for years, the Uvara riot, committing even more atrocities, enraged and mortified that they themselves are responsible for their cruelty. Kaladin interprets the story as meaning he must take personal responsibility for his life and not blame circumstances or others. As Wit says, that’s one way to look at it. But there are other interpretations that have meaning for SLA: The Voidbringers are the Uvara. This view concludes that Odium’s influence leads people to do horrific things if they can avoid taking responsibility for them. “I was just following orders…” The Voidbringers are also Derethil and his crew. This view looks at Derethil like the serpent in Eden: he brings knowledge of good and evil to the Uvara, showing them their emperor is dead and the murders are their own. Could the “Origin” of Highstorms actually be the “origin of Voidbringers”? Very possibly (for reasons explained in another post I’m working on). The “Great Abyss” sounds like the “Void.” These are the People of the Great Abyss – people of the Void. Could the Great Abyss be Odium’s Shardpool (assuming he even has one on Roshar)? Shardpools are speculated to be associated with the Cognitive Realm according to the Coppermind. They are also believed to be worldhopping conduits like the Cognitive Realm. I and many others think Hoid periodically emerges from Cultivation’s Shardpool in the Horneater Peaks. If the Great Abyss is Odium’s Shardpool, that would explain one way his investiture circulates into Roshar.
  14. So we know that Renarin seems to have a special place in the Diagram, and Odium is unable to see his part in it. I can see two possible reasons for this, that might be inter-related. 1. His ability to see the future as Odium sees it changes the future. We know that Renarin seems to have his future seeing ability through Glys' corruption. Presumably (given that both Renarin and Odium incorrectly see Dalinar fall) the future he sees is the same future that Odium has predicted. But this knowledge changes things. For example, Jasnah is set to kill Renarin when he turns around and nods, knowing what she will do and accepting it. That act prompts her to stop. By knowing a future he ended up preventing it. It will be interesting to see if he will start using this information consciously, working against Odium by using his own assumptions about the future against him. 2. He is Like an anti-Odium In the scene "A small bottle" Dalinar reflects that he can't understand why his sons don't hate him. This is particularly striking for Renarin given that we have seen ample evidence of Dalinar' lack of love towards his youngest up to this point. Yet he doesn't hate him, instead he shows extrodinary love and empathy. It may be that Renarin is so different from Odium that he either slips under the radar or Odium simply can't predict his actions because they are so alien to his nature. Curious to hear other theories.
  15. Odium is usually depicted as the big bad and his Intent reduced to Hatred while Honor is considered good with all the positive connotation that word has and him helping humanity. I think this is intentional misleading by choice of name and their Intent is not limited to the word. Odium says that he is about passion and I am inclined to believe him. Honor is more about binding to an idea like an oath or a spren, less about this oath being good or honorable. While Odium is crafty and none of what he says should be taken as fact, we should not do the opposite either and discard everything because it is an evil corruptor saying it. Neither should everything Honor and/or the Stormfather says be taken as fact. Odium's splintering of Devotion and Dominion was not necessarily an evil act because we do not know how those shards were while alive and they did break a part of the original pact of the vessels. What I miss about Odium's passions though is love, so what about if he once loved and was betrayed by that love, breaking him forever. Not love for a fellow shard but love for a people. When he came to Greater Roshan, he invested on Ashyn and became god to the humans there and fell in love with them. But Odium's touch is passion in excess and passionate use and abuse of investiture led to the great catastrophy that devastated Ashyn. Odium still loved his people though so he went to Roshan and asked Honor and Cultivation for a place for his people. But Honor claimed that the humans were unsafe with investiture so he demanded that Odium make a pact with Honor that he would make sure the humans would not get their hands on investiture, leave Shinovar or something similar. So the humans moved to Shinovar, isolated from the rest of Roshan and from the highstorms by the mountains, Odium's command and maybe a pact. Honor on the other hand did not love his people, the singers and saw in the pact with Odium a chance to do what he was good at, binding him, into a prison. Maybe he was afraid, as Honor and Cultivation were in a similar position as Devotion and Dominion. So when discontent increased in the upper class of the humans about the lack of power from investiture and being isolated, Honor found 5 men and 5 women and lured them with promises of power and conquest to make the Oathpact, binding them to him and giving them access to investiture (SF I think claims the Oathpact was a reaction to the Fused but that does not make it fact). So Odium's beloved people betrayed him with the help of Honor, binding him to a prison consisting of the pact Odium made with Honor for the benefit of this people. Odium's Passion broke, splintering Love away from him, the remnant now dominated by Hatred. Betrayed to the humans by their gods Honor and Cultivation, the singers were desperate as the first desolation swept over them, so they and Odium were natural allies. This started the cycle of desolations. Well, most of this is not based in fact (and the exact wording of any pact as prize for Shinovar would matter a lot), the intention is just to show that perception matters and if you avoid seeing Odium as absolute evil and Honor as good, interesting interpretations open up.
  16. So bear with me on this one. but it seems to me that with the little we do know about The Evil from Shadows for Silence would suggest that it (if indeed it is an it) is a splinter of the power that was thrown off during Ambition's fight with Odium. Now this comes from my thinking that if the evil is indeed a personification of some of the attributes of Odium and Ambition it is possible that it is an accidental creation of the conflict. What little we do know does tell us that lots of the fight took place in the Cognitive Realm (or maybe Spiritual Realm?) and so the ripples from the conflict seem to have "bled" through to the world of Threnody. This might be a wild card theory, but I think Ambition might have (in an ambitious way) tried to create a piece of herself to survive her fight with Odium. Perhaps that or a failed attempt to escape?
  17. I've been doing some random exploring lately. As we know Odium's whole thing is centered around passion and emotion, and that many cultures built religion around this, more specifically the Thaylen Passions. In my searching I found that, from the definition, Ardent (Which is a word) means enthusiastic or passionate Mind blown
  18. "No!" Odium screamed. He stepped forward. "No, we killed you. WE KILLED YOU!" Dalinar stood within a pillar of light and spinning gloryspren, One hand at each side, clutching the realm's that made reality. Forgivin. The pain he'd so recently insisted that he would keep started to fade away on its own. These Words... Are accepted, the Stormfather said, sounding stunned. How? What have you done? Odium stumbled back. "Kill Him, Attack him!" - Oathbringer Chapter 119 Unity page 1139 I don't think that Odium is referring to Honor here. First is that he says "We killed you." implying that he worked with some one. While its true that we don't know how he is shattering other shards the implication of we is a group and I doubt from his behavior that one of his mortal servants counts as we. After all he tries to get Dalinar to go give up his pain and ownership of his wife's death. If my analysis of his personality is correct then referring to Honor here would say "I killed you.". Second is that his reaction is to strong for another shard being who he refers to. If it was I would expect a line more along the lines of "I shattered you once before." or a "Why do you think that power can help you?" something to undermine and distract the person ascending and make attacking them easier on a psychological level. This reaction is more along the lines that what ever Dalinar is doing here is beyond or outside his expectations for the death in question. 3rd is the gloryspren. Honor or some kind of dutyspren make more sense if its Honors power he is tapping how ever Gloryspren are something that even Sylphrena says she is annoyed by as they "Don't do ANYTHING" . I would love to know if gloryspren existed before Honor and cultivation arrival. Taken together the imply something more than a Well of Ascension type effect based around the remnants of honors splintered shard. So to present my case. We know that Roshar and the first spren were all created by Adonalsium. we also know that in this scene Dalinar refers to holding both the Cognitive and Spiritual realms in his hands prior to uniting them in the pillar of light. Finally we see that the Stormfather is shocked by the acceptance of these words as Dalinars next oath implying that he does not understand how or why they work as an oath. Finally there are the dreams that are not coming from the storm father dreams of piece in an abstract and personal to Dalinars life way. I think that the assumption that this is all the power of a Bondsmith is incorrect. That none of the others Bondsmiths could have done something like this and that its not the fact that he bonded the Stormfather. I think that Odium was so horrified because this is something of Adonalsium could have done. Maybe did do. A primal power of all 16 shards before their division that he has no counter for and no understand as to how it could be possible without the full powers of Adonalsium.
  19. This may have been discussed somewhere, but I just finished the book and had a major epiphany. This is written with no regard for spoilers. I know that can never be spammed enough, so read on at your own risk. The puzzel pieces Humans came to Roshar as the Voidbringers (probably through shadesmar) I think they came through and built Urithiru to use in conquering Roshar. Odium is captured somehow Great spirits can be captured in fabrials. Urithiru is a giant fabrial that they don’t understand. I think Odium is trapped in Urithiru. Our Radiants have steadily been manipulated by all three gods towards Urithiru. I think Odium wants them to free him while Honor wanted them to defend the prison. The Unmade lured Shallan the the heart of Urithiru, Renarin’s curupted Spren keeps dropping hints on how the place works. I think they will unintentionally free Odium. Odium is collecting Honorblades and Oathgates. This is how he will be set free. The oath pact is connected to the oathgates, which are activated by blades. I think if all the Honerblades are used on all gates it will set him free. To defend from this Honor(who knew his heralds were failing) convinced the Spren of some of the gates to never activate again. They basically say this to Shallan in Shadesmar. This also explains Odiums tactics. He wanted to prevent the Radients from connecting the dots on fabrial traps. He captures gates, but doesn’t use them. I think there is more here. I wouldn’t be surprised if there is some mistborn style manipulation of history going on by odium as well. Anyway, let me know what you think. Or, criticize my spelling and grammar. Whatever floats your boat.
  20. On Roshar, the people believe seeing the future is evil. The few instances we've seen of foresight are associated with Odium. At a recent signing, Brandon said this: I find the bolded part where he trails off to be amazingly fascinating. Given the rest of the conversation, I propose that seeing the future is dangerous because of the following possibilities: 1. It draws the attention of the Shard (or its agents as explained below) that is powering the foresight. 2. It is heavily influenced by the intent or motives of the Shard that's powering it. 3. It's an ability granted by the Shard on purpose in order to manipulate events toward a future that the Shard (or its agents) desires. 4. It aligns you to the intent or motives of the Shard. This can be short-term (see atium below) or long-term. Repeated uses may cause a more lasting efect. 5. There's also the always-present conundrum of trying to change the future after you've seen it. Without context, you have no idea if changing your actions will cause that future or if not changing your actions will cause that future. The true answer could be any of the above, none of the above, or some combination of the options I've given. In order to evaluate possibilities, I've discussed the instances we've seen of people seeing the future, either as a summary, or as specific text, or links. Atium: We know how atium fuels Allomancy. It lets you see a few moments into the future. It also increases your mental and physical capabilities in order to take advantage of that knowledge. Sazed speculates in one of the HoA epigraphs that This appears to correlate to possibility 4--That seeing the future via atium temporarily aligned a person toward Ruin, the essence of entropy toward destruction. It might also explain why, after using atium as a metal mind and burning it for so long, TLR had such Ruinous impulses--mass slaughters, willingness to let the nobility destroy each other, etc, etc. After a thousand years of compounding atium, it's likely that he was very Connected to Ruin. It might also tie into possibility 3, assuming the possibility of Ruin wanting Rashek to become such a despot that he's overthrown just as the Well is about to fill, opening the way for Vin to take and release the power. Endowment: Endowment appears to be able to see some of the future, and sometimes her Splinters, the Returned, can pick up on this as well. We see this in Warbreaker, when Lightsong has his dreams and visions of T'Telir burning. She appears to send her Returned back in order to do a specific task (or set of tasks) based on what she sees, giving rise to possibility 3. Endowment apparently wanted the Hallandren and Idrians to persist, and sent back some of her Returned to help prevent the coming destruction. She probably has multiple contingency plans for if one of them dies before his or her task is accomplished. Wyrn: In the Elantris Annotations Brandon says: And Given that the Seons are Splinters of Devotion, (Love) and the Skaze are Splinters of Dominion, it seems like the Skaze are manipulating Wyrn in order to achieve their goals (Goals hinted at in the new epilogue in the 10th Anniversary Edition of Elantris) , tying back to possibility 3. Devotion and Dominion are both splintered, but the Skaze may retain enough of Dominion's intent to want to have complete dominion over the world (or maybe re-assemble Dominion?). And we come to the Stormlight Archive! We have more examples of foresight in SA than we have in any other book. There are three primary examples of it: Moelach: On the bridge between life and death, Moelach grants visions of the future, that the person utters in a cryptic and strange way, a phenomenon coined as Death Rattle. We don't really understand much about how this works, but the Death Rattles have been startlingly accurate, if incredibly obscure, so far. However. Moelach is a Splinter of Odium (along with the other Unmade). The Death Rattles we've seen so far all seem to be related either to the conflict between Odium and most of Roshar, or related to the people that are in that struggle. I have no absolute proof of this, but it's not a wild assumption (imo) to think that Odium, via Moelach, is using the Death Rattles to affect people's behavior. I realize this is putting conclusion before evidence, but I feel that it's a credible conclusion. Moelach is one of the mindless Unmade, as far as we know, so he's unlikely to have motives of his own. As a Splinter of Odium, Odium must have created him for a reason. We know Odium has a pretty good grasp of possible futures. Creating an Unmade to give people glimpses of the future (in a rather morbid way) to get them serving his purposes isn't beyond the realm of possibility. Renarin: We know very little about how Renarin's abilities work, and what types of things he can see, or how they will affect events. We know that his spren, Glys, is a Truthwatcher spren corrupted by Sja-Anat, another Splinter of Odium, and that Glys is likely what grants Renarin the ability to see the future. Renarin has seen Jasnah killing him. This would end him as a Radiant and as a Kholin. I confess, I am unsure what purpose his death would serve in Odium's cause. However, Renarin also saw Dalinar turning into Odium's champion. This would obviously be quite a desirable outcome for Odium. Given that Renarin has done a few things in order to try and warn about or prevent the things he sees, did he, consciously, or subconsciously, take actions that helped to bring that set of events into reality? We don't know yet what effects this might have, so I'm unsure which of the above categories this could fit into. The Diagram: Taravangian believes that he wrong the Diagram out of pure human capability and insight, rather than foresight. However, according to this WoB: As we know, in the Spiritual Realm, all times and places are essentially one. Seeing into the future in all other instances has been seeing into the Spiritual Realm. If Taravangian was closer to the Spiritual Realm than the Cognitive Realm, then he's likely incorporating at least some parts of what he sees in the Spiritual Realm into the Diagram. What we've seen him do so far has seemed to align him toward Odium's desires and motives. However, he was granted this ability by Cultivation, who is at odds with Odium. There was a lively discussion in this thread about the Diagram being a plant (pun intended) put in place by Cultivation. That T's actions, although they seem at odds with Dalinar+co, actually are meant to help them; and that T himself is unaware of this. As you can tell, I subscribe to this theory myself. This would fit in with possibilities 2, 3 and 4 above. Cultivation seems very crafty and careful, playing the long game with Dalinar, with Lift, and probably with T. And finally, we have Hoid. He has an ability to know where he needs to be at any given time. We don't really know most of his motives, so there's no way to determine what "where he needs to be" means, exactly. We're also very unsure as to how he knows to be in those places. We do know he uses something similar to Chromium Feruchemy in order to tap Fortune, but possibly isn't Feruchemy itself. We don't know what Shard he draws on, what intent that Shard might have, or if it's even a Shard at all. If someone can manage to tap directly into the Spiritual Realm without intervention from a Shard, it seems like Hoid would be the one. I'm also sure he's self-aware enough to know when/if he's being manipulated by whatever power he's using. So in short, I have no conclusions to draw about Hoid's abilities, other than a reiteration of his own speech to Shallan: There's always the risk, in seeing the future, of bringing about the exact consequence you want to prevent. That might be the simple answer to this entire question. Won't my face be red if it is! So, there is my long winded theory about the dangers of seeing the future. Please feel free to add to it or rip it to pieces, and thanks for reading!
  21. Are we SURE it's Odium attacking Harmony at Scadrial? If Harmony had to divest himself of power to keep them away from Odium. He has admitted to being trapped and at odds with his dual natures in the final Letter in Oathbringer. I wonder what character he might choose as successor? Have you? Any thoughts?
  22. In OB at the end of part 2, something happened that made me think there is more going on with Lift and Odium: Immediately following this is when Lift pokes her head up from behind the rocks and starts talking to Dalinar about Odium. Was Odium simply surprised that Lift had broken in to the vision with them, or is there something more? Odium doesn't strike me as someone who gets caught off guard very often. There's a lot we don't know about Lift... so is there some reason that Odium would be scared of Lift?
  23. So I've had this theory bouncing around in my head ever since finishing Oathbringer. The theory is: The Nightwatcher is a spren of both Odium AND Cultivation OR foreseeing the future IS NOT of the Voidbringers. Now, there's already been a LOT of speculation going on about the foreseeing part. We know that all Shards can see the future to some extent or another. I'm speaking here of the spren/investiture/influence of the Shards, NOT the Shards themselves. Dalinar's visit is what started me thinking about the Nightwatcher and Odium. It describes the Nightwatcher as a "shadow" that "seeped from the darkness", was made out of "dark mist" and "[stalked] him like a predator" (OB Chapter 114). The things she suggests to Dalinar as boons are quite interesting and unlike the intents we've seen from other Cultivationspren or Cultivation herself -- namely renown, wealth, skill, beauty, followers, glory, and possessions. Note that these boons align VERY CLOSELY with the Odium-driven passions we see in the Unmade and the Voidbringers! Also compare the appearance of the Nightwatcher, a combination of black and green (dark green mist), with the description of Cultivation herself -- brown skin and brown dress, no references to darkness of any kind. The other thing that could point to the Nightwatcher being of Odium is THE DIAGRAM. The purpose of the Diagram (as it is currently understood) is to save the world by anticipating, predicting, and FORESEEING the future. The boon Mr. T received included investiture that gave him FORESIGHT. Here's where the second part of the theory comes in: if the Nightwatcher is truly and purely of Cultivation, then FORESEEING THE FUTURE IS DEFINITELY NOT OF THE VOIDBRINGERS. And really, it's possible that the Nightwatcher is of Odium AND foreseeing the future isn't of the voidbringers. Of course, there's the whole confusing thing with Renarin, and (to my knowledge) we don't know if regular Truthwatchers can foresee the future or if it some twisted result of Renarin's spren. They imply that it's due to the corrupted spren, but I'm not about to trust that until it's a little more solidified not to mention Kaladin's strange foreseeing stunt in Shadesmar. So what do y'all think? Legitimate theory, interesting idea, or just me trying to anticipate a totally unpredictable all-powerful Shard of Awesomeness named Brandon Sanderson?
  24. My theory is that Odium is really what everyone else has always said he was, the shard of hatred (more or less), but Odium is able to absorb other emotions from people and give them back much like the pain spren in Navani's painrial do. All the emotions that Dalinar saw in the fiery inferno version of Odium, other than hatred, Odium collected from others and were not innate to the shard. Odium claims that he is not just hatred, but Passion. When Dalinar sees Odium's fiery inferno form he senses a lot different emotions, not just hatred. Later Odium tries to talk Dalinar into giving Odium his pain. Towards the end of OB Moash remarks to one of the Fused that he doesn't feel anything and the Fused tells him that Odium has taken his passion and will return it to Moash later. Navani's painrial's have pain spren in them. These spren are able to take the pain away from the wearer. The pain seems to be stored in the painrial because Navani is able reverse the flow of pain when she defends Queen Fen by disabling the would-be assassins in OB chapter 118. The assassins are only in pain temporarily, as if the fabrial only had so much stored up. How can Odium do this and other shards haven't done it? It seems to have something to do with him being "The Void" an emptiness that allows him consumes the emotions of others. How does that relate to hatred of others for what they do or inspiring hatred in others? Perhaps there is an innate emptiness in hate, I don't know.