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Found 219 results

  1. I must be a simpleton. Three simple words: "we killed you". I don't understand any of them. I splintered Honor ("you" = Honor; "we" = Odium + minions and/or traitors; "killed" = Splintering of Honor and maybe subsequent death of Tanavast): Obvious. But Odium doesn't seem like the most likely to be sharing credit with what he probably sees as lesser contributors. And Dalinar didn't say he was Honor. He said he was Unity. We Shards splintered Honor ("you" = Honor; "we" = Odium + another Shard; "killed" as above): Also obvious. What other Shard? Nepene suggested Autonomy below. Cultivation and Honor are local, but surprising possibilities given what we understand of their motivations. But why did Dalinar say he was Unity? Our group Shattered Adonalsium ("you" = Adonalsium; Implicitly "we" = Rayse + other actors; "killed" = Shattering of Adonalsium): Does that mean that Dalinar reminds him of Adonalsium? Is Unity the same as Adonalsium? Is Dalinar rebuilding Adonalsium? Why does Syl think it's Honor's Perpendicularity? Because Honor was part of Adonalsium and she didn't know Adonalsium? Dalinar and I killed Evi ("you" = Evi; "we" = Odium + Dalinar; "killed" = normal human death): Fifth of Daybreak proposed this below. The "we" makes sense. I assume that the voice is Evi and she has lingered somehow, rather than traveling beyond. But does Odium even know about the communication between what I presume to be Evi and Dalinar? Why would Odium focus on a long-dead pawn in the face of a presence of something that sees him as small that he is apparently unwilling to face? In context, wouldn't Odium be addressing what's in front of him? Dalinar's anger and I overcame Dalinar's responsible, growing self ("you" = new, controlled Dalinar; "we" = Odium + Dalinar's anger; "killed" = human internal transformation): Crimson Not Blood suggests this below. Autonomy and I splintered Unity: mirianme proposes this on the second page. A related issue is what Dalinar is becoming and what is influencing him. It seems awkward to include here. Is the god beyond encouraging Dalinar to unite the Shards? What did Tanavast's unity charge in the vision mean? Unite the human nations? Unite the humans and the parsh? Or is Tanavast also encouraging him to unite the Shards? Was Tanavast under the influence of what Dalinar is perceiving? Does this deserve it's own thread or should I try to include it? You guys have already provided other explanations. Let's figure this out as well as we can!
  2. On Roshar, the people believe seeing the future is evil. The few instances we've seen of foresight are associated with Odium. At a recent signing, Brandon said this: I find the bolded part where he trails off to be amazingly fascinating. Given the rest of the conversation, I propose that seeing the future is dangerous because of the following possibilities: 1. It draws the attention of the Shard (or its agents as explained below) that is powering the foresight. 2. It is heavily influenced by the intent or motives of the Shard that's powering it. 3. It's an ability granted by the Shard on purpose in order to manipulate events toward a future that the Shard (or its agents) desires. 4. It aligns you to the intent or motives of the Shard. This can be short-term (see atium below) or long-term. Repeated uses may cause a more lasting efect. 5. There's also the always-present conundrum of trying to change the future after you've seen it. Without context, you have no idea if changing your actions will cause that future or if not changing your actions will cause that future. The true answer could be any of the above, none of the above, or some combination of the options I've given. In order to evaluate possibilities, I've discussed the instances we've seen of people seeing the future, either as a summary, or as specific text, or links. Atium: We know how atium fuels Allomancy. It lets you see a few moments into the future. It also increases your mental and physical capabilities in order to take advantage of that knowledge. Sazed speculates in one of the HoA epigraphs that This appears to correlate to possibility 4--That seeing the future via atium temporarily aligned a person toward Ruin, the essence of entropy toward destruction. It might also explain why, after using atium as a metal mind and burning it for so long, TLR had such Ruinous impulses--mass slaughters, willingness to let the nobility destroy each other, etc, etc. After a thousand years of compounding atium, it's likely that he was very Connected to Ruin. It might also tie into possibility 3, assuming the possibility of Ruin wanting Rashek to become such a despot that he's overthrown just as the Well is about to fill, opening the way for Vin to take and release the power. Endowment: Endowment appears to be able to see some of the future, and sometimes her Splinters, the Returned, can pick up on this as well. We see this in Warbreaker, when Lightsong has his dreams and visions of T'Telir burning. She appears to send her Returned back in order to do a specific task (or set of tasks) based on what she sees, giving rise to possibility 3. Endowment apparently wanted the Hallandren and Idrians to persist, and sent back some of her Returned to help prevent the coming destruction. She probably has multiple contingency plans for if one of them dies before his or her task is accomplished. Wyrn: In the Elantris Annotations Brandon says: And Given that the Seons are Splinters of Devotion, (Love) and the Skaze are Splinters of Dominion, it seems like the Skaze are manipulating Wyrn in order to achieve their goals (Goals hinted at in the new epilogue in the 10th Anniversary Edition of Elantris) , tying back to possibility 3. Devotion and Dominion are both splintered, but the Skaze may retain enough of Dominion's intent to want to have complete dominion over the world (or maybe re-assemble Dominion?). And we come to the Stormlight Archive! We have more examples of foresight in SA than we have in any other book. There are three primary examples of it: Moelach: On the bridge between life and death, Moelach grants visions of the future, that the person utters in a cryptic and strange way, a phenomenon coined as Death Rattle. We don't really understand much about how this works, but the Death Rattles have been startlingly accurate, if incredibly obscure, so far. However. Moelach is a Splinter of Odium (along with the other Unmade). The Death Rattles we've seen so far all seem to be related either to the conflict between Odium and most of Roshar, or related to the people that are in that struggle. I have no absolute proof of this, but it's not a wild assumption (imo) to think that Odium, via Moelach, is using the Death Rattles to affect people's behavior. I realize this is putting conclusion before evidence, but I feel that it's a credible conclusion. Moelach is one of the mindless Unmade, as far as we know, so he's unlikely to have motives of his own. As a Splinter of Odium, Odium must have created him for a reason. We know Odium has a pretty good grasp of possible futures. Creating an Unmade to give people glimpses of the future (in a rather morbid way) to get them serving his purposes isn't beyond the realm of possibility. Renarin: We know very little about how Renarin's abilities work, and what types of things he can see, or how they will affect events. We know that his spren, Glys, is a Truthwatcher spren corrupted by Sja-Anat, another Splinter of Odium, and that Glys is likely what grants Renarin the ability to see the future. Renarin has seen Jasnah killing him. This would end him as a Radiant and as a Kholin. I confess, I am unsure what purpose his death would serve in Odium's cause. However, Renarin also saw Dalinar turning into Odium's champion. This would obviously be quite a desirable outcome for Odium. Given that Renarin has done a few things in order to try and warn about or prevent the things he sees, did he, consciously, or subconsciously, take actions that helped to bring that set of events into reality? We don't know yet what effects this might have, so I'm unsure which of the above categories this could fit into. The Diagram: Taravangian believes that he wrong the Diagram out of pure human capability and insight, rather than foresight. However, according to this WoB: As we know, in the Spiritual Realm, all times and places are essentially one. Seeing into the future in all other instances has been seeing into the Spiritual Realm. If Taravangian was closer to the Spiritual Realm than the Cognitive Realm, then he's likely incorporating at least some parts of what he sees in the Spiritual Realm into the Diagram. What we've seen him do so far has seemed to align him toward Odium's desires and motives. However, he was granted this ability by Cultivation, who is at odds with Odium. There was a lively discussion in this thread about the Diagram being a plant (pun intended) put in place by Cultivation. That T's actions, although they seem at odds with Dalinar+co, actually are meant to help them; and that T himself is unaware of this. As you can tell, I subscribe to this theory myself. This would fit in with possibilities 2, 3 and 4 above. Cultivation seems very crafty and careful, playing the long game with Dalinar, with Lift, and probably with T. And finally, we have Hoid. He has an ability to know where he needs to be at any given time. We don't really know most of his motives, so there's no way to determine what "where he needs to be" means, exactly. We're also very unsure as to how he knows to be in those places. We do know he uses something similar to Chromium Feruchemy in order to tap Fortune, but possibly isn't Feruchemy itself. We don't know what Shard he draws on, what intent that Shard might have, or if it's even a Shard at all. If someone can manage to tap directly into the Spiritual Realm without intervention from a Shard, it seems like Hoid would be the one. I'm also sure he's self-aware enough to know when/if he's being manipulated by whatever power he's using. So in short, I have no conclusions to draw about Hoid's abilities, other than a reiteration of his own speech to Shallan: There's always the risk, in seeing the future, of bringing about the exact consequence you want to prevent. That might be the simple answer to this entire question. Won't my face be red if it is! So, there is my long winded theory about the dangers of seeing the future. Please feel free to add to it or rip it to pieces, and thanks for reading!
  3. I'm wondering: is it possible the "Sibling" was twisted and broken up into the unmade? We have this about the unmade from the Arcanum: Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) 1) The Nightwatcher and Stormfather are parallel entities such that Nighwatcher:Cultivation :: Stormfather:Honor. 2) There is sort of a parallel for Odium, but the parallel is the various Unmade instead of a single entity. 3) They are parallel in that they are all Splinters. 4) The Unmade are voluntary Splinters, because Odium ("like almost all of the other Shards") voluntarily Splintered part of it's power. 5) The Stormfather is different from the others because it's a Sliver. source So Odium voluntarily Splintered part of its power into the Sibling, then somehow the Sibling splinters into the Unmade (probably parallel or similar to the splintering of Adonalsium). On Roshar, there is one splinter for Honor (the Stormfather) and one for Cultivation (the Nightwatcher). Why would Odium have nine splinters (the unmade)? We know there is a sibling, but if the sibling is Odium's splinter, then where do the unmade fit in? In my mind, it's possible the Unmade were once one splinter: the sibling. Given that Dalinar has imprisoned the Thrill, I'm also wondering if uniting the Unmade will become a goal of his. Certainly sabotaging the Heralds and the Unmade are part of the war against each other, but if Dalinar can remove all the Unmade from the playing field by uniting them back together... Disclaimer: I searched "unmade+sibling+unite+dalinar" and still got over 1,000 results on the forums. This theory seemed different enough from the ones I read - I know there are a few threads regarding things Dalinar needs to unite, and what/who the Unmade are, and who the Sibling is, but none actually seemed to put them together. Regardless, I apologize if this has already been discussed!
  4. Hey team, I apologise in advance if this post isn't particularly well laid out - I have little time at the moment and a thought just struck me so I wanted to get it down before I forget about it, and I don't know if this has been discussed before or already theorized (I had a quick look and couldn't find a mention of it). I agree with @Calderis that there are three specific magic systems that operate in three different ways. I also agree that the fused have not been Voidbinding currently. Essentially the theory is that how magic on Roshar works is that: A) Surgebinding is the system of magic through which the fundamental forces of nature are manipulated through the filter of Honor and Cultivation Fabrials is the system of magic through which these forces of nature can be trapped, stored and then used (this one I am less confident about and would be interested C) Voidbinding is the system of magic through which the fundamental forces of nature are manipulated through the filter of odium. This, especially the Voidbinding postulation, I base on the WOB below. Linked to this, if we consider that Voidbinding is the accessing of the fundamental laws of creation and forces (as per the quote) through Odium, then because humans were originally of odium, and we know that they destroyed their previous home, I believe that humans used Voidbinding to destroy Ashyn. This fundamentally would suggest that humans were the original Voidbinders. This would also tie in nicely to them being the Voidbringers. So to conclude quickly: Voidbinding is the accessing of the forces of creation through the filter of odium and humans were the original voidbinders who used voidbinding to destroy Ashyn.
  5. I admit right off the bat that at this point this is almost entirely a matter of conjecture, since there isn't really a shred of hard evidence for it one way or another, but I thought I'd put it out there and see what everyone thinks. As per Oathbringer, we know that the Unmade Sja-anat wants to defect from Odium (or at least that's what she has claimed, and for the sake of argument I'm just going to assume that this isn't merely a ploy and that she is being genuine), and that she seemingly aided Kaladin, Adolin and Shallan by preventing the Oathgate she had corrupted from killing them. And that got me thinking: Sja-anat, along with the other Unmade, are supposedly Splinters of Odium's power that gained sentience (at least in the case of some of the Unmade) or else were deliberately created by Odium, which should mean that they would share Odium's general nature, but from what we've seen this doesn't appear to necessarily be the case with Sja-anat; she seems to be fighting to free herself from Odium's influence. Ironically, it would almost seem like the corrupter is itself corrupted, or at least in the process of it. So if this is true, and admittedly this does depend on a number of unproven assumptions, it begs the question of what exactly could be behind this. Honor? Possibly, though I personally don't think so, because corrupting Sja-anat so as to make her betray Odium doesn't really seem like it would be consistent with what we know of Honor's nature. Cultivation? Again, possible, and in my opinion far more likely than Honor. But what if it's another Shard altogether? A Shard who most people assume is an ally (albeit probably in a very loose way) of Odium and whose Shardic Intent would certainly seem to be compatible with 'corrupting' something with the desire for freedom and individuality. Might it be that Autonomy isn't quite as sympathetic to Odium's cause as she would have him believe? Like I said earlier, at this point this is purely conjecture. However, we do know that in spite of what she would have others believe, Autonomy has no qualms about meddling in the affairs of other worlds, including other worlds that have Shards, if we assume that she is the one behind the opposition of Harmony on Scadrial. So, is it really that big of a stretch to assume that maybe she's meddled on Roshar as well? Could it be that Autonomy is subtly opposing Odium by 'infecting' one of his greatest servants with a spark of her own power? At this point, I honestly don't know, and I'm by no means convinced of this (in fact, I honestly think it's probably more likely false than true). But it would have a certain poetic form of irony if it did turn out to be true.
  6. He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you. -Nietzsche Aphorism Part 1 Exterminating Parshmen In Words of Radiance the first assumption of Bridge Four after they eavesdrop on a conversation of Shallan warning Adolin of the Singers is to assume she wants to exterminate them all. In OB Jasnah makes this offhand comment: It`s in the sake of an argument, I know, but the extermination of all Singers is actually thinkable. If Parshmen genocide is thinkable for our heroes, then it might be more than thinkable for more shady people among the leaders of the Alethi like Ialai Sadeas. And the real war has not even started yet. Throughout OB the Parshmen are referred to as “monsters”. What do you do with monsters? You slay them. Additionally: the war against the Parshendi was ended by killing almost all Parshendi, why should the same trick not work on a grander scale? Part 2 Rebellious Parshmen The uprising of the Parshmen resembles a slave or peasant uprising. Slaves shove off their masters shackles and free themselves. You know how many slave/ peasant uprisings have been successful in western ancient and medieval history? Right, not a single one. They seized a lot of territory but were ultimately crushed, all of them. There are reasons for this. Slaves don`t have any fighting experience, masters have professional armies, that fought their entire lives. We see this at the battle of Thaylen the Sadeas armies would have totally crushed the Singer-army, even with support from the Fused and the beasts. And the Fused aren´t they these tactical geniuses? Yes they are, but there are only a few hundred of them and a lot of them have gone insane. Essentially the Singers are normal people like you and me trying to fight a professional boxer. Even if we had the best coach and the best strategy ever (the Fused/ Voidspren), we could never beat the professional boxer. Even if we trained every hour of every day for a year- we just could not. But the Parshmen have the numbers, don`t they? If you compare current army sizes, yes. But, ultimately, there are way more Humans on Roshar and in Alethkar than Singers. All these Humans in Alethkhar need Parshmen guardians to look after them. So they cannot bring their full army force to battle because they need to garrison all those towns and cities in Alethkar. Remember the mantra Shardbearers don`t hold any territory? Well the same goes for the Fused. Plus the Alethi have a giant pool of possible recruits in Jah Keved. So no, the Singers don´t have the numbers. Part 3 A war in Alethkar What does this mean? Well Odium simply needs Humans to change sides on a massive scale to win the war. He is deadly sure that he will win: Like, there is no possible way he could not. Therefore, he has to have a sure plan on how to turn most of the military establishment to his side. How will he do it? By persuading them that it is necessary, just and feels satisfying to exterminate all Parshmen they find. I think Dalinar`s flashback chapters gave us a hint at what the current Alethi ethics of war are like. It will be worse, if the enemy happens to be not even human/ is a “monster”. Plus, what will they see, if they enter Alethkar? Abused Humans. This will surely persuade them that a war of extermination is not only necessary, but emotionally justified. I imagine the debate on the conduct of the war will open a rift between House Kholin, Aladar, Sebarial and the others. Dalinar will urge upon a honorable conduct of war. The other Houses will see this first as a weak and soft hand approach, then as a betrayal. After a few decisive battles for the Alethi at the beginning of the war, the Fused will opt for a guerilla war strategy. By that time the other Houses will desert from House Kholin and follow a new leader, perhaps Ialai Sadeas. They will begin the extermination of all Parshmen and fight the Kholins. By that time they will be in Odium`s hands. The Vorin church will actively support them. Aren`t the Parshmen literally the Voidbringers? Aren`t they supposed to kill them according to their religion? Aren´t Queen Jasnah and Dalinar heretics? Aren`t the Knights Radiant traitors? What about that really powerful god that revealed himself and who says he loves us? He must be the Almighty right? This is how the Alethi as a nation will become the monsters they fought. Part 4 Odium`s children Odium regards Humans as his children: The same attitude goes for the dialogue with Taravangian. Odium does not actually want to kill all Humans, he wants to bring them into his fatherly arms. The Singers are treated pretty harshly by Odium and the Voidspren in OB, which is in stark contrast to how he treats Dalinar and Taravangian. Odium wants his beloved children to fight for him, just like it had been in ancient times, before Honor and the spren intervened. The Singers are just a tool to get his children to his side and always have been. Odium will throw them away, once they will have outlived their usefulness. (I posted an earlier version of this a few months ago, I hope you forgive me for opening a new thread)
  7. Recently I received a comment on my Oathbringer Lore video that started me down this particular rabbit hole. “I don’t get why Odium doesn’t take the power of the shards he kills.” (VREODe) Initially, this seemed easy to answer. Odium already has a purpose and intent that goes so well in line with the Vessel’s own intent and incorporating other shards would only muddle that intent further. But as I thought about the implications I realized that there is something that I was overlooking about the nature of Odium and the potential union that we might have overlooked. The power and intent of Ambition. [Credit to Botanica Xu who created Grandpa Odium, please follow the link and follow her on Tumbler] First let’s review why Odium would willingly pass up the power of a shattered shard. Harmony is the perfect example of the danger combining shards poses. While Harmony likely wields the greatest collective power in the Cosmere at the moment, he is also the most severely limited. In his letter to Hoid he expresses the growing struggles he has in acting upon the greater Cosmere due to the need to maintain the balance between two opposing shards. This seems to restrict him far more than the single shards ever were. His immense power might destroy him if he is not careful. It's easy to see that such a conflicting nature would be incredibly unappealing to a shard like Odium. He obviously has plans and intent to destroy or at least subdue the other powers of the Cosmere for his own ends. Perhaps he is just paranoid that he will fall like Adonalsium and seeks to eliminate any potential threats who have the investiture or knowledge to destroy him. In fact, the nature of events on Scadrial, where mortals ascend and destroy an established shard, likely haunt his dreams. This would explain Odium’s apparent terror when Dalinar created a perpendicularity. At that moment Dalinar became a sliver of something Odium thought destroyed and he fled. It seems clear to me that Odium fears to lose his power, and that fear motivates his actions. But what does this have to do with the death of Ambition? Brandon has said that the moment the shards scattered across the stars, Odium was targeting Ambition. Likely he foresaw Ambition as the most likely to challenge his rule and thus needed to be eliminated. Ambition wasn’t the first shard to fall, but eventually, Odium took her out. There are scraps of power left behind from that encounter, so we know the fight was figuratively bloody. After the downfall and splintering of Dominion and Devotion Odium left quite a mess of their investiture and the effects of his decision to lock the investiture in the Cognitive Realm has resulted in some unintended consequences. Perhaps he has refined his ability to kill shards since then, and he had another opportunity with Ambition. It is likely then to assume that the shattering of Ambition was far cleaner, and perhaps it will be difficult to determine what exactly happened until the events of that fight are canonized. But as I answered this question some small thoughts that had been floating around in my mind came back to me. Core questions that I couldn’t shake off. How was Odium able to fight and kill two shards that were united? Would the power of Ambition resonate with a man like Rayse who already had so much natural ambition? Has it ever been stated officially that Odium is just one shard? Devotion and Dominion were likely pitted against each other allowing Odium to bring them down due to their opposing natures. But Honor and Cultivation are not so opposed. The nature of their relationship was likely complicated but it didn’t seem as openly hostel as other pairings thus far. It seems odd that another equal albeit aggressive shard could sweep in and kill Honor. In fact, it seems to me that Honor and Cultivation sought to trap Odium to prevent his future rampaging. So, what happened? How did one defeat two? I think Odium secretly holds more than his share of power. What reason does he have to abandon the power of a defeated shard that matches his own intent so well? In physics, there are some curious effects that we can observe in the nature of sound waves. If you have two sound waves that have the same amplitude but inverted phase (antiphase), they will cancel each other out leaving a strange silence behind. This is observably similar to the nature of Ruin and Preservation, two similar yet opposing forces that cancel each other out. However, if you have two wavelengths of equal strength that are in phase they amplify into one more powerful wave. This is likely a parallel that can be drawn between two different shards. If opposed they cancel each other out. If in phase they can amplify. Based on the observed Cosmere, I doubt that Odium completely took all of Ambition’s power, it seems there were large splinters left behind at least on one world. But I sincerely doubt Odium would leave behind the power that would only bolster his intent and nature. It would explain why he has become such a danger to the Cosmere that Hoid seeks to gather the other shards against him. Remember Odium destroyed Honor and seeks to destroy Cultivation so he can break free of the Rosharian system. The other shards might only be safe currently because Odium has been trapped on Roshar for so long. Naturally, there is little support for this theory, and I’m likely wrong about this. Perhaps Odium would be too paranoid of corrupting his own power base to incorporate even a portion of another shard. Yet there are some observations that I can make that imply that I might be right about this. For instance, it is interesting that on Threnody the fragment of ambition seems to create cognitive shadows of the deceased that can act of their own accord, something that seems prevalent in the forces of Odium and the fused. Is it hard to believe that the power to infuse the remains of the dead into service is a power that Odium acquired rather than developed? To me, it seems far too likely to be a coincidence and the temptation of Ambition’s power far too great to be ignored.
  8. A couple of precursors: I haven't really written much on this website before, so apologies if I don't know how to tag spoilers, do quotes, explain myself intelligently, etc. If someone else has already talked about this, I apologize for stepping on your toes. I'm not always on the site so I don't know what I might have missed. This is kind of two topics, but they tie together in my mind. Apologies in advance if it seems disjointed to you. With that out of the way, I wanted to talk about the similarities between Ruin and Odium, and-- more importantly-- speculate about what those similarities might mean and why they might exist. The idea that started me thinking this was Odium and Ruin's interesting use of the word passion. As most of us know, Odium tries to convince Dalinar that his intent is about more than just hate, but passion as a whole: “They call me Odium,” the old man said. “A good enough name. It does have a certain bite to it. But the word is too limiting to describe me, and you should know that it is not all I represent.” “Which is?” He looked to Dalinar. “Passion, Dalinar Kholin. I am emotion incarnate. I am the soul of the spren and of men. I am lust, joy, hatred, anger, and exultation. I am glory and I am vice. I am the very thing that makes men men. Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 551). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. I noticed as I was rereading the Hero of Ages that Ruin says something similar: “This work I do, it’s about passion, Vin. It’s about dynamic events; it’s about change! That is why you and your Elend are so important to me. People with passion are people who will destroy— Sanderson, Brandon. Mistborn Trilogy (Kindle Locations 30922-30923). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. Note especially the way the word is written in both cases: italicized. Outside the Alcatraz series, Brandon rarely uses italics for emphasis. The fact that both these characters would talk about their passion in this italicized way really stuck out to me. I thought that I might just be overthinking a small coincidence, but then I came across this WoB: Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] Was it relevant that Ruin mentioned Passion to Vin? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Yes. source So now that I knew it was an important connection, I started to look into other ways that Ruin and Odium are similar other than just the way they talk about their intent. Some other possibilities that I came with: They are both vessels. This is obvious, but easy to overlook. Maybe all vessels just feel this way about their intent. Both had plans to cause cosmere wide destruction. Odium, with his "hit list" of other vessels, and Ruin, because his intent would have driven him to continue to destroy other planets after Scadrial was no more. They have both spent time being trapped (Ruin in the prison Preservation created, Odium trapped by the Oathpact) Both tried to forge "champions" that ended up working against them. Brandon says in the annotations to the Hero of Ages that for some unknown reason Preservation had chosen Vin from a young age, and that ruin worked to corrupt Vin after Preervation chose her (Annotation Chapter 79). Similarly, Honor for unknown reasons gave visions to the Kholins (starting with Gavilar, I know). All the while, Odium was hard at work trying to corrupt Dalinar and turn him into his champion. Interestingly enough, both of these individuals ascended and used their power to fight against the force that had tried to turn them. Probably lots of other important/relevant connections I'm too tired to think of at the moment. Since I was curious about the first bullet above-- that maybe all shards just act this way-- I decided to ask Brandon the following questions last Saturday: Valhalla [PENDING REVIEW] Ruin and Odium, they both talked about their passion, and it was italicized both times. Would any other Shards talk about passion in that same italicized way? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Yes they would. Valhalla [PENDING REVIEW] Would any of them not talk about it that way? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Yes they would. Excellent, good questions. source This made it very clear that the passion connection is not an inherent thing that all vessels share, nor is it something that is unique to Ruin and Odium. So, what do all the similarities between Ruin and Odium actually mean? And how does passion play into it? I'd love to hear your theories, because frankly none of the ideas I have come up with seem to add up, but I will throw out a few ideas to get the discussion started. Theory #1: They are both being acted upon by an outside force One theory that I developed is that they are both somehow being controlled/manipulated by the same outside force. There are a few problems with this. The first is that vessels like Rayse and Ati both have a lot of raw power and a large amount of knowledge and cosmere awareness, making them difficult to manipulate. The only beings who seem capable of manipulating a vessel would be another vessel. However, its possible that because both Ruin and Odium have been trapped with at least a portion of their full power made temporarily unavailable to them that they have been left in a state in which they would be more suggestible or otherwise duped. This still doesn't explain who would want to do it, how they would accomplish it, and why they would make both Ruin and Odium so focused on their passion. So, yeah, this theory is very much a work in progress. Theory #2: Ruin and Odium were working together So this theory relies on kind of a stretch to the answers to my questions; basically, that you can split all vessels into two groups: those who have passion, and those that don't. The passionate vessels like Ruin, Odium, and apparently others decided to group up to help accomplish their goals, especially those goals that the non-passionates might have attempted to stop. While doing so, they realize that they are more than just one intent, but that they are also a force of Passion in their worlds. They also realize that the names assigned to their intents, like ruin or odium, tend to have negative connotations and so when they interact with humans they tend to bring forth their passion instead. This theory works on a logical level, but it doesn't work on a storytelling level. I doubt Ati and Rayse are just repeating the mantra from their support group for passionate shards. There has to be more to it than that. Theory #3: Insert your theory here I had a couple more ideas, but they all have even bigger holes than the ones I mentioned. This would be easier if we had a third shard that we knew would describe itself as passion, so that we could make more connections. I am interested to hear your thoughts. Why does it matter that both Ruin and Odium talk about passion in italics? What shards have we met that would be passionate? What theories do you have about the connections between these two shards? And finally, does the fact that I stayed up to 2 A.M. on a weekday to write and research this post because I'm so passionate about this particular cosmere puzzle indicate that I, like Ruin and Odium, am a major antagonist intent on causing chaos and destruction throughout the known universe?
  9. Hey guys. So I recently made what I thought would be just a lame joke post on the Stormlight Archive Facebook group, but to my surprise it pretty much went viral in terms of liked. So I can’t resist posting it here too; please don’t think I’m TOO much of a nerd. Here’s how the confrontation between Hoid and Odium would go: "Can you hear them? All these people who’ve lived in terror of you and your hatred. All these people who have devoted themselves, sacrificed themselves against you... can you hear their defiance? Oh, you like to think you're a god, but you're not a god, you're just a parasite eaten out with jealousy and envy and longing for the lives of others - you feed on them! On the memories of guilt and loss and fear and death and pain and sorrow, so... so, come on then. Take mine. Take my pain! But I hope you have a big appetite, because I have lived a long life and I have seen a few things. I walked away from the the last great Shattering. I marked the passing of Adonalsium. I saw the birth of the Cosmere and I watched as time ran out, moment by moment until nothing remained - no humans, no spren, just me! I walked on worlds where the laws of magic were devised by the mind of a mad Shard! I’ve watched Shardworlds freeze and creations burn! I have seen things you wouldn't believe! I have lost things you will never understand! And I know things: secrets that must never be told, knowledge that must never be spoken! Knowledge that will make parasite Shards blaze! So come ooooonnn then! Take it! Take it all! Have it! You have it all!!!" *Odium implodes* The end. Oh come on, someone had to do it someday. lol.
  10. On Roshar there are 9 Splinters of Odium whose function is similar to Honor's Heralds. The Unmade, harbingers of chaos and calamity. But at the end of OB we saw on screen that they can be captured in much the same manner as the spren used for fabrials. It requires a perfect gemstone, a person who's naturally attractive to the particular Unmade to draw it in, and someone who is strong willed enough resist its influence. This post will attempt to match Unmade with characters likely to succeed in capturing them. Of course this list is incomplete since we don't yet know the function of all the Unmade. For some of these I'll try to speculate but naturally this is open to commentary. Known Capure Capacity The two Unmade we know align with certain characters as revealed in OB. Nergaoul - Dalinar (captured) Re-Shepir - Shallan (capture capable) Speculative Capture Capable Characters These are based on what we know of the Unmade, matched to a character that alligns to its function, however loosely Moelach (Death Rattles) - Renarin Ashertmarn (Heart of the Revel) - Lyft (tenuous connection due to her love of food) Unknown Capacity These are the Unmade that we know hardly anything about besides a name. More information needed to determine an alignment. -Chemoarish (Dustmother) -Dai-Gonarthis (Black Fisher) Questioned Capacity These are Unmade of whose function is reasonably certain, but ones for who character alignment is little more than guesswork. - Yelig-Nar (Blightwind) - Has already consumed Amaram and Aseudan. Grants all Surges in exchange for a loss of form. - Sja-Anat - A corruptor of Spren. May remain uncaptured because she is trying to defect. A Spy type would be most likely alignment. - Bo-Ado-Mishram - Odium's General. Grants Voidlight. Was previously captured by Bondsmith Melishi. Due to power, may need to be aligned to another Bondsmith to be recaptured. (Was she released or is she still trapped?)
  11. In OB at the end of part 2, something happened that made me think there is more going on with Lift and Odium: Immediately following this is when Lift pokes her head up from behind the rocks and starts talking to Dalinar about Odium. Was Odium simply surprised that Lift had broken in to the vision with them, or is there something more? Odium doesn't strike me as someone who gets caught off guard very often. There's a lot we don't know about Lift... so is there some reason that Odium would be scared of Lift?
  12. Ok here’s my theory: odium has two magic systems one is voidbinding, it involves bonding his spren and was made post his arrival with humans on Roshar. This one was made to model the investiture and magic system used on Roshar by honor and cultivation. The other was what humans had on their original home planet and prob. Is as diff from anything we’ve seen as the magic in Roshar differs from that on Scadrial. This is the stuff the dawnshards r made of. My main textual support from this is based on what I noticed in ars arcanum in which the radiant surges are graphed and then underneath it says some thing about her not being certain how voidbinding or its cousin old magic fit into this paradigm or indeed at all.(sorry don’t remember it’s exact wording. I first thought this refers to magic pre shattering from adonasolum but realized then why doesn’t she know it? Also in what way is it the cousin to the arts of voidbinding? I currently understand it to refer to magic before Roshar which is odiums and thus a cousin to voidbinding. what I like about this is that I think it fits nicely that once on Roshar odium changed his magic a bit to steak from what honor and cultivation had going. I also like that it makes the human designation of parshendi as voidbringers accurate. Yes the humans were the invaders yes they brought odium but no, only the parshendi voidbind. That’s because odium never succeeded in having humans take in voidspren until oathbringer (that’s what it says in the book. I always understood this to be because they were to diff. From humans to bond but parshendi could receive them in their gemhearts and be controlled only a human racket bond which is in the cracks of their soul needs to “fit”) ehat do u guys think
  13. After the shattering, Odium splintered and killed the holders of (at least) three shards before arriving on Roshar. In the various timelines for the Cosmere I have seen constructed, Odium is always said to have splintered Devotion and Dominion on Sel first, and then mortally wounded Ambition in the Threnodite system before Ambition was fully splintered, almost certainly by Odium, elsewhere (see, e.g. here, for example). Is there any WOB or anything that substantiates this order, because, based on the system overviews in AU, I presumed Odium went after and splintered Ambition before he went to Sel. Concerning Ambition, the Thredodite System overview says: Concerning Devotion and Dominion, the Selish System overview says: The Selish System article, also suggests that there was a fairly substantial period of time that Devotion and Dominion were on Sel before being destroyed, at least in human terms. There is no such suggestion in in the Threnodite Sytem article, though the coppermind article on Ambition makes it sound as though this was the case, or at least that there had been significant enough investiture once on Threnody to suggest it, all albeit without citations backing it up. It sounds to me, all told, that Odium went after Ambition first, soon after the shattering, and then went to Sel after Devotion and Dominion had been there for a fairly significant amount of time, at least from a human perspective. I think this is reinforced by the fact that Odium didn't defeat and Splinter Ambition outright, and that she was able to run away first after being mortally wounded. This suggests to me that Odium was still just figuring out how to splinter and not just kill the holders of other shards. I think Mistborn Secret history also suggested that splintering other shards was something shards had to learn, and that Ruin hadn't learned it, which was what allowed Kelsier, then Vin, then Sazed to take up preservation. Is there a reason to believe Odium went to Sel before going after Ambition, rather than after? If so, can you please share it? Thanks
  14. I don’t really have any evidence for this assumption, at least not hard evidence. However, in the scene where he accidentally walks in on Shallan in a nightgown, I noticed something odd he said. He said, “ name is Adolin Kholin, I was born under the sign of the nine...” Knowing Brandon, I wouldn’t dismiss this as coincidence out of hand. We know Braize, Odium’s Invested planet, is related to the number nine. Since Preservation’s number was 16, Honor seems to be 10, while Odium is 9. Nine shadows of his Champion, Nine Unmade, etc. We have WoB on that, can’t find it. Anyway, what is “the sign of nine”? Why does it happen that a main character, who has had nothing special happen to him as an individual thus far (at least in comparison) suddenly mention this supposedly unimportant fact in passing? Coincidence? Not likely.
  15. I was inspired by another topic, so what would happen if an animal (such as a beaver) took up a shard? Would it become intelligent and human-like? Or would it stay chaotic, such as a giant cat playing with the world like it was yarn. Maybe it would be dependant on the shard? Like Harmony would give enlightenment, Odium would cause the animal to stay instinctual? Just wondering about people's theories.
  16. No theory, just some idle speculation. We know that the Rosharan System was not Rayse's original stomping ground. He's a late-comer that invested in the native magic system, co-opted so that the magic he drives looks rather similar to the Shards in residence. Badvadin does the same thing on Scadrial making new kandra with a different god metal. My question is, if Rayse had different priorities and did what most shards do i.e. finding a planet of their very own and pouring their investiture into it, what would his magic system ultimately look like? According to Realmatic theory the intent of the Shards drives the magical interactions. For example, Hemalurgy ruins, Allomancy preserves, Surgebinders both bind and cultivate. With a Shard whose Intent is hate, how would that manifest in a magic system?
  17. Two quick questions. Can someone point me in the direction of the discussion about Odium's champion and who it may end up being. I haven't started OB yet so no spoilers. Also is there any discussion of Hoid's level of "omniscience" He seems to know so much by the way he just happens to be places where things are happening even before it seems that he should really be able to know what is going on.
  18. odium

    On another thread today I asked myself why is Odium so determined to see the humans on Roshar destroyed. I mean in the past Odium splintered the shard and moved on! Someone suggested he is trapped in this System and can’t leave until Honor’s representative agrees to free him. This raises a question as to what would happen if Odium is freed. As I didn’t want to change the topic of that thread , I started this thread. So what would happen if freed? Would Odium be so mad because of his imprisonment he would destroy Roshar? Or, would he stay long enough to pop cultivation’s shard and then leave?im really thinking the latter! So what happens when Odium leaves? Will the Fused be destroyed by default? We know Odium power is what tether’s the Fused cognitive shadows. With Odium gone willl those tetheres remain or will they dissolve? With the Fused gone won’t there be a better chance at peace. I Say Dalinar should let him go . Let him become Another Shards problem. You never know Harmony although not experienced might just splinter old Rayse and solve everyone’s problem ! Thoughts ....? !
  19. So I was just reading Mistborn:SH and we know that Kelsier is in the cognitive realm and isn't going anywhere anytime soon. We also know that Hoid dislikes Kelsier because he's similar to Rayse. And we also know that Kelsier wanted to learn more about the Cosmere at the end of SH. I know this might be a little early for theorizing, but does anyone think it likely, or even possible, that in the future Kelsier could become a shard? Kelsier has already had plans about killing a "god" in the first Mistborn, so that sounds like something he would plan. Since he's similar to Rayse, I feel like it makes sense, that at some point, he might take up Odium's mantel. I know this is kind of a long shot theory, but it just made sense to me. Thoughts?
  20. There's a question to be asked: Why Nalan hunts Surgebinders? Or rather: Why does he believe that Surgebinders may cause Desolation? Let's get a timeline. I'll be puting quotes in spoiler tags. There were no Desolations before humans were on Roshar. At first, Heralds were the only Surgebinders. At one point, spren figured out what Honor did and started bonding humans which resulted in Surgebinders. Heralds became patrons of the Orders, at the same time imposing organisation on them. We know that between Desolations Radiants fighted with some monsters (Dalinar's vision with Midnight Essence). We know that Heralds are sent back to Roshar before Desolation. We know that if they stay too long after Desolation ended, another one will start. Aharietam and Recreance: The Last Desolation was 4500 years ago. There is a connection between Heralds tortured and Desolation. Kalak seems to believe that if Odium cannot torture them to break them, he can't cause a Desolation. After Heralds walked away from Oathpact, Knights Radiant did not leave their posts. Steel stores physical speed. When Recreance happened, one of the soldiers in Feverstone Keep mentioned that Radiants should be fighting devils on the front line. So even after Last Desolation monsters showed up. After Recreance there were probably no Surgebinders (or next to none, since spren turned away from humans). Honor was Shattered after Recreance (or maybe Tanavast survived Shattering long enough. It is nor clear or known.) since it is in one of the Dalinar's visions Modern times: Taravangian believes that Desolation happens when Heralds break under torture and that spren came back because it was to happen. Stormfather forbidden spren (or maybe only honorspren) bonding with humans in fear of Recreance happening again. He has to accept Words, though. Stormfather sent Dalinar visions as demanded by Tanavast. These visions request Dalinar to refind Knights Radiant Spren started bonding humans at least ten years ago (Shallan's childhood) Nalan hunts Surgebinders down because he believes that Surgebinding may cause Desolation. Voidspren started showing up en masse after "Taln" returned to Roshar. But Venli is suspected to bear stormform earlier. True Desolation seems to be triggered by chain reaction: stormspren start hijacking Listeners -> large number of stormform Parshendi exist -> Voidbringers summon Everstorm -> Everstorm circles Roshar carrying more voidspren, triggering more Voidbringers out of formless Parshmen But Radiants existed for a long time after the Last Desolation, until Recreance. When Heralds abandoned Oathpact Jezrien said "There is a chance we might end the cycle of Desolations." But that wasn't their intention, they wanted to get free of the torture. They seem to consider End of Desolations as a side effect, not the primary goal. They know that Odium is somehow bound by their torture and they're afraid he will find a way around them not returning to the Damnation. True Desolation seems to be different to the regular Desolations, but we do not know why. The question is, why would Nalan hunt Surgebinders since they existed before without triggering Desolation? Why is the True Desolation different from the previous Desolation? How is it different? What is the exact connection between Herald's torture and breaking under it, their return, release of voidspren and start of Desolation? Do spren sense Herald's coming near to point of breaking? Discuss, provide more quotes and WoBs you find relevant.
  21. Any theories on the best (and fastest) way to kill Odium? Personally, I think Harmony should stab him with Nightblood. Think about it.
  22. Before the next Shardcast addresses this question, I thought I’d try. Posters describe Odium as hateful emotion, a consuming passion, a “fervor.” But Brandon says Shards represent some “primal force” like stasis or entropy – some universal “fundamental law” – not some aspect of Divine Personality. The Spoiler parses the WoB that IMO confirms this. Brandon describes Honor’s primal force as “the sense of being bound by rules, even when those rules, you wouldn't have to be bound by.” The Stormfather says, “There are no foolish oaths. All are the mark of men and true spren over beasts and subspren. The mark of intelligence, free will, and choice.” (OB, Chapter 4, Kindle p. 60.) Voluntary adherence to rules that structure society IS a “mark of intelligence, free will, and choice.” Passion, emotion, and hate are NOT choices people make. They are primal appetites that drive people’s behaviors. Unrestrained, these appetites push out self-control and discipline and leave you with the mindless compulsions of Nergaoul and Ashertmarn. Foreshadowing Dalinar’s “Unity” moment, he tells Navani, “Control is important to me…You know how I was, what I became, when I was a man with no control.” (OB, Chapter 4, Kindle, p. 56.) This suggests the “primal force” of the Odium Shard relates to these primal urges: lust, the need to conquer, overindulgence, or any other behavior that looks only to the person’s own needs without consideration for the needs of others: “I’m not to blame.” The Odium-filtered Singer Rhythms – ridicule, derision, spite – are anti-social behaviors that push people away or separate them into command and subservience. Hate divides. Odium IMO breaks Connections between people to expose their bedrock behaviors. When Odium “takes their pain,” he severs the Connection between that person and the cause of their pain. These broken Connections leave the person numb, not feeling the restraints relationships with others bring. That exposes the person’s raw appetites, their primal urges, their “passions.” That’s why I conclude Odium is the Shard of passion/emotion “sort of.” He gives his magic by breaking the Connections that make society possible. All he leaves are individual passions.
  23. This episode on Ashspren’s Absolutely Not Serious Theories (AANST... good ring to it)… We all see Stick as a possible bit of comic relief during a time period in which we see Shallan discovering more about herself— funny content, but serious Cosmere ideals. However, Stick might be more than it appears. Firstly, it is important to remember what Shai from the Emperor’s Soul said about everything, even inanimate objects: everything views itself as something. With this logic from what I like to call the “Tables Have Feelings Too Lecture,” we can infer that Stick, everyone’s favorite character from Words of Radiance, must view itself as something. Therefore, Stick has its own patterns of thought, and must be able to think for itself. Nobody tells Stick to be a stick, Stick tells itself to be a stick. Thus, when Shallan tries to get Stick to change in Shadesmar, Stick proceeds to tell her what he sees himself as: a stick. Shallan tries to force it to change, telling Stick that it is actually fire, but she does not understand that Stick has made up its mind. But, where does this lead on a larger scale? Well, Stick is actually very helpful, and may have been able to predict the future. We start back at Stick’s signature line: “I am a stick.” It tells this to Shallan repeatedly, as if it wants her to know something. And indeed, it does. Stick wants Shallan to know to stay true to herself. It is very self-aware, and tells Shallan to be the same. However, Shallan stumbles upon Stick, she is not having struggles with her identity yet— this takes place later in Words of Radiance, and is seemingly resolved at the end of Oathbringer. This is where the part about telling the future comes in. Stick is warning her to be more self-aware at the moment, so that in the future, she would not have as many problems. Now, we see at different points in Oathbringer that Odium can see, and provide visions of, possible futures. This is shown through Renarin and his corrupted spren, Glys. Is Stick’s advice for the future and Odium’s abilities just a coincidence? I think not.
  24. In OB we learn the apparent reason for the Recreance: Humans had been the original Voidbringers and would eventually destroy Roshar by using surges, as we hear from the Stormfather himself: The thing is, it does not make a lot of sense. A: They could have chosen a way less dramatic exit. They could have broken their bonds and still retain the Shardplates and Blades. This way their order would have remained as a powerful political institution to prepare humankind for the next desolation. Or in general to keep order in Roshar. B: There has been one Knight Radiant order around for 4000 years, they did not destroy Roshar and possibly never will. Therefore, behold my grand theory! The Radiants abandoned their oaths because they realized, humans are Odium`s children. This needs a bit of explanation. So let`s back off a bit shall we? Rosharan came from Ashyn/ the Tranquiline Halls, which they destroyed by using Surges. They had access to these Surges but they were likewise under Odium`s influence. I think it is likely Odium created Rosharan humans on Ashyn Edit: This is definitly not true as seen by WoB below quoted by RShara. Anyways, it is apparent Odium has a deep bond to Rosharan humans as he speaks to Dalinar and Taravangian: It is made clear in Dalinar`s passage explicitly and in T.`s implicitly that old Rayse regards Rosharan humans as his children. Maybe this is a special trait he brings to the power of Odium. He does not want to destroy them, he wants to corrupt Honors influence and ethics and bring them to his side. We know for some time that the question of whether you are on Honors or Odium`s side is not as much about your ends, but about what means you are willing to employ to get there. Journey before destination is Honor`s path. Passion before anything else Odium`s. Now, if we look around Roshar at the beginning of SA, we see Odium`s influence everywhere, Honor`s almost nowhere. Alethi culture is all about game, the thrill, the glory, the victory. The codes of Honor are followed by exactly no one except House Kholin. The Way of Kings used to be a handbook for any ruler, almost nobody is reading it in our time. The Vorin church reveres the Almighty, but does not put ethical, “honorable” restraints on anyone. In fact in Kholinar we see that one Ardent paving the way for the arrival of the Unmade. The Shin follow the code of their tradition too much. So much so they miss the time, for which they were created in the first place. They make Szeth Truthless for this. In Azir it is almost the same. The protocol has become so elaborate, it makes responding to challenges almost impossible. Powerful groups in both countries only care about staying in power, not about how this power is exercised. And then there is the enslavement of an entire race, about which nobody cares about…. I can think of two explanations for this horrible state of affairs. 1) Humans on Roshar as Odium`s children are more drawn to Odium than they are to Honor. 2) It was Odium`s subtle influence on his children over 4000 years that created this; Or a combination of the two. This is the explanation for point A). If the Radiants had stayed as a powerful force on Roshar, their Order would have been corrupted by the shortcomings of human nature or Odium`s influence. They would have become like the Skybreakers or the Vorin church: Organizations corrupted beyond recognition. Odium would only need to ask the Bondsmiths to release him end they would have freed him. By terminating the Order they gave future Radiants the chance to stand up to Odium. It is likely that the enslavement of the Listeners gave the deciding impulse to make them realize they were becoming a tool of Odium. Regarding point B), I propose it is not exactly Surgebinders onto themselves that are destroying worlds. It is Surgbinders under Odiums influence doing it, as it happened on Ashyn and was going to happen on Roshar with corrupted KR orders. The Knights realized that they were the children of Odium/ Voidbringers. Therefore they had to accept that their order would be corrupted, even if they had just abandoned the spren and carried on without them. The Skybreakers realized they would be immune to Odium`s influence, if they`d be completely emotionless. This in turn perverted the intent of their order.
  25. With the revelation that Odium could be seen as Passion, and the older theory that Odium+Honor would be Justice... Honor focuses on creating bonds, and Odium possibly being Passion, could their joining create... Love?