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How connected were Spren to Honor? In general I view them as functionally separate. I do wonder about the economies of scale of this assumption however. Would an event like the recreance be directly felt by, or be able to directly hurt Honor?

Lirin, love him or hate him, is of Honor: he keeps his oath to a fault. So is he going to get a spren? I hope so. What kind? Well, here's my controversial idea: Lirin will bond an honorspren and become a Windrunner, and this has already been foreshadowed. Hear me out. Kaladin became a surgeon, at least temporarily, without breaking his oaths to protect. Being a surgeon, Kaladin discovered, qualifies as protecting people. Although Kaladin realized that due to the circumstances would eventually need to fight to protect, for some time in Rhythm of War he was simply working as a surgeon, with no intention of ever violently protecting anyone ever again, and his bond with Syl was just fine, unlike the time he almost broke his oath by betraying Elhokar. But would Lirin be breaking his oath if he refused to violently protect someone when necessary? Unlikely. Radiant oaths/ideals are subject to the interpretation of each radiant and spren. This has been confirmed. And since Kaladin's Third Ideal was "I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right," we know that Windrunners don't have to protect when it is wrong to do so. If Lirin (and perhaps his spren) think violence is wrong, their interpretation of wrong-ness defines what breaks the ideals and what doesn't. It might even be enough for Lirin alone to think that he is keeping his oath, even if his spren disagrees. This is not yet clear. But does Lirin interpret his actions as protecting people through non-violent means? Or does he practice non-violence even though he thinks it means he can't protect people? Well, wasn't one of his reasons for avoiding war that when he fought back he got people killed? Getting people killed is the opposite of protecting them. I think he clearly thinks that he protects people specifically by refusing to be violent, and he probably also thinks he is protecting them by being a surgeon, as Kaladin did. Even if he doesn't use the word "protect" when thinking of surgery, surely the explicit use of that exact word isn't required there. Some may think Lirin wouldn't want to become a Windrunner. I agree. But it probably doesn't matter. Kaladin had no idea he was bonding Syl until it had already happened. Lirin could bond an honorspren without even realizing it. He might be deeply disturbed to discover he had formed a Windrunner bond. That is one reason I hope he bonds an honorspren. Such potential for drama! Lirin's potential feeling about the bond probably don't change the likelihood of the bond occurring. If he protects people as a matter of oath, he's suited to bond an honorspren, whether he thinks he is or not. He has only to think he is keeping his oaths to protect as long as it is right, not to think that being a Windrunner doesn't entail evil violence or killing your spren. Let's talk about the drama. Imagine Lirin being thrilled to discover his spren didn't die when he refused to kill someone. Or imagine Lirin recovering from the guilt of having caused Tien's death by fighting back, and therefore with a clean conscience killing a would-be murderer. Or imagine if Lirin started to understand he could kill to protect, but was undecided, made the wrong decision, and killed his spren. Imagine a desperate leader trying to force an unwilling Lirin to fight among the Windrunners, and Lirin fleeing, perhaps with Kaladin's help. Imagine Lirin trying to understand his bond and his oaths as Kaladin tried to help him. If Lirin bonded an oddball honorspren pacifist or an oddball honorspren who is just ornery and respects Lirins pacifism while other honorspren shy away, that spen could be a lot of fun to read about. Or if a normal honorspren bonded with him, respecting Lirin's honorable oath-keeping but disagreeing with his methods, imagine the arguments, the weirdness, and the tension. What if Lirin accidentally swore the first ideal while arguing with Kaladin or someone? You think you're so high and mighty, Knight Radiant? Well *I* put life before death, strength before weakness, and journey before destination! I think I always have! You don't get to claim that your better than us mortals because... Oh no. What is happening to me? And Lirin starts to glow.... And there's a reason I think he should be a Windrunner instead of a member of some other radiant order. It isn't just wishful thinking. The Windrunners' spren are honorspren. And like I said, Lirin is of Honor. Lirin is of Honor more than anyone else in on Roshar, because, no matter what the cost, he keeps his oaths. And that is what Honor, and I guess honorspren, values above all. And yes, this has been foreshadowed. Kaladin speculate that Syl could become a shardblade surgical instrument and suspect that the bond could be used in other ways if the radiants weren't constantly distracted by war. Obviously that applies to Kaladin, but also, potentially, to Lirin. And Kaladin's and Lirin's character arcs were clearly meant to be parallel, ending with their double baptism in the storm as they fell off the tower of Urithiru. That was where Kaladin swore the fourth ideal. Will Lirin swear his first?

Lirin, love him or hate him, is of Honor: he keeps his oath to a fault. So is he going to get a spren? I hope so. What kind? Well, here's my controversial idea: Lirin will bond an honorspren and become a Windrunner, and this has already been foreshadowed. Hear me out. Kaladin became a surgeon, at least temporarily, without breaking his oaths to protect. Being a surgeon, Kaladin discovered, qualifies as protecting people. Although Kaladin realized that due to the circumstances would eventually need to fight to protect, for some time in Rhythm of War he was simply working as a surgeon, with no intention of ever violently protecting anyone ever again, and his bond with Syl was just fine, unlike the time he almost broke his oath by betraying Elhokar. But would Lirin be breaking his oath if he refused to violently protect someone when necessary? Unlikely. Radiant oaths/ideals are subject to the interpretation of each radiant and spren. This has been confirmed. And since Kaladin's Third Ideal was "I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right," we know that Windrunners don't have to protect when it is wrong to do so. If Lirin (and perhaps his spren) think violence is wrong, their interpretation of wrong-ness defines what breaks the ideals and what doesn't. It might even be enough for Lirin alone to think that he is keeping his oath, even if his spren disagrees. This is not yet clear. But does Lirin interpret his actions as protecting people through non-violent means? Or does he practice non-violence even though he thinks it means he can't protect people? Well, wasn't one of his reasons for avoiding war that when he fought back he got people killed? Getting people killed is the opposite of protecting them. I think he clearly thinks that he protects people specifically by refusing to be violent, and he probably also thinks he is protecting them by being a surgeon, as Kaladin did. Even if he doesn't use the word "protect" when thinking of surgery, surely the explicit use of that exact word isn't required there. Some may think Lirin wouldn't want to become a Windrunner. I agree. But it probably doesn't matter. Kaladin had no idea he was bonding Syl until it had already happened. Lirin could bond an honorspren without even realizing it. He might be deeply disturbed to discover he had formed a Windrunner bond. That is one reason I hope he bonds an honorspren. Such potential for drama! Lirin's potential feeling about the bond probably don't change the likelihood of the bond occurring. If he protects people as a matter of oath, he's suited to bond an honorspren, whether he thinks he is or not. He has only to think he is keeping his oaths to protect as long as it is right, not to think that being a Windrunner doesn't entail evil violence or killing your spren. Let's talk about the drama. Imagine Lirin being thrilled to discover his spren didn't die when he refused to kill someone. Or imagine Lirin recovering from the guilt of having caused Tien's death by fighting back, and therefore with a clean conscience killing a would-be murderer. Or imagine if Lirin started to understand he could kill to protect, but was undecided, made the wrong decision, and killed his spren. Imagine a desperate leader trying to force an unwilling Lirin to fight among the Windrunners, and Lirin fleeing, perhaps with Kaladin's help. Imagine Lirin trying to understand his bond and his oaths as Kaladin tried to help him. If Lirin bonded an oddball honorspren pacifist or an oddball honorspren who is just ornery and respects Lirins pacifism while other honorspren shy away, that spen could be a lot of fun to read about. Or if a normal honorspren bonded with him, respecting Lirin's honorable oath-keeping but disagreeing with his methods, imagine the arguments, the weirdness, and the tension. What if Lirin accidentally swore the first ideal while arguing with Kaladin or someone? You think you're so high and mighty, Knight Radiant? Well *I* put life before death, strength before weakness, and journey before destination! I think I always have! You don't get to claim that your better than us mortals because... Oh no. What is happening to me? And Lirin starts to glow.... And there's a reason I think he should be a Windrunner instead of a member of some other radiant order. It isn't just wishful thinking. The Windrunners' spren are honorspren. And like I said, Lirin is of Honor. Lirin is of Honor more than anyone else in on Roshar, because, no matter what the cost, he keeps his oaths. And that is what Honor, and I guess honorspren, values above all. And yes, this has been foreshadowed. Kaladin speculate that Syl could become a shardblade surgical instrument and suspect that the bond could be used in other ways if the radiants weren't constantly distracted by war. Obviously that applies to Kaladin, but also, potentially, to Lirin. And Kaladin's and Lirin's character arcs were clearly meant to be parallel, ending with their double baptism in the storm as they fell off the tower of Urithiru. That was where Kaladin swore the fourth ideal. Will Lirin swear his first?

Hey y'all I'm just curious about something. During Oathbringer and Rhythm of War it is suggested heavily if not outright stated that the powers of the Bondsmiths are over powered to the point where Dalinar, by virtue of being bondsmith (correct me if I'm wrong) can speak on behalf of Honor. In Oathbringer we also learn that the surge of adhesion works for Bondsmiths in a more spiritual way than it does for the Windrunners, which allows them to forge spiritual connections in ways that the books have not made extremely clear yet. What I'm wondering is why this OP powerset is given to the Bondsmiths and not the Windrunners, who are bonded to honorspren (the spren closest in intent to Honor himself), and who use the surges of both adhesion and gravitation, which are both binding in nature. In contrast, the Bondsmiths can be bound to either the Stormfather (Honor's spren), the Nightwatcher (Cultivation's Spren), and the Sibling (Honor and Cultivation's child) and use the surges of adhesion and tension (which alters the stiffness of an object). In the case of the Stormfather it makes sense, but why would the Nightwatcher's Bondmsith be able to use Adhesion to such overpowered extremes? It seems to me that if any order of KR should be overpowered, it should be the Windrunners who seem the most related to Honor. Do we know of any in world explanations for this? The meta explanation is possibly that Brandon didn't want to give the largest order of KR the overpowered ability to bind planets as they saw fit, but are there in world explanations for this? Thank you.

There’s a theory that I’ve seen a couple of times, which is that Siah Aimians are somehow descended from honorspren. Let’s look at the similarities between Syl and Axies The Collector (the only Siah Aimian we’ve seen) They are both a blue white color. They can both change their form (though in different ways) at will. They both don’t seem to believe they can die, and physical harm is either (for Syl) pretty much nonexistent and (for Axies) it either doesn’t affect him as much, or he just doesn’t really care. (it was thought spren couldn’t die until that RoW “today we have found out how to kill spren” scene). Axies casts a shadow the wrong way (stems from a connection to the Cognitive Realm, where spren live) Brandon has said that Siah Aimians are “extremely long-lived”, like spren, which are effectively immortal. I think that’s all (so far) that we know. Tell me what you think!!

So yeah I was wondering why the honorspren aren't bonding and maybe it's cause they believe humanity is doomed with 1). Humans have little to no knowledge of past events 2). No heralds to lead them. 3). No Dawnshards 4). A startup KR organization with amateur self taught members with no one above the 3rd ideal 5).The Skybreakers on Odium's side. 6). The Everstorm and the more dangerous Fused yet to come against the amateur humans. 7). Honor himself being dead. 8). Heck even the other orders of Spren distrust humanity and are willing to stay neutral or even ally with Odium or be hostile to both sides. 9). The Sibling being asleep. 10). The other Spren being hostile towards honorspren cause of thier failed wars of conquest and imperialist ambitions. 11). And ofcourse thier own lack of trust in humans. 12). They don't seem to know much about human tech progress and how it might affect the war either. But maybe they can survive the Desolation by holing up in their fortress. It's bound to have good defences and Odium won't be around forever. Even he will lose interest after Cultivation is killed and will move on .Then they can come back I guess. Maybe even rule Shadesmar once the other Spren voidish or otherwise are spent in thier wars. The Fused and Odium wanna wipe out humans not necessarily the Spren. If the honorspren remain neutral or atleast have no humans to bond with , they aren't a threat . Besides the stormfather himself is less than ecstatic about honorspren bonding with humans again and he seems far more bound by Honor than the Spren and can't refuse to do the task Tanavast asked of him and hence , has bonded Dalinar knowing he will probably die but the honorspren themselves need not do it. Perhaps he even has told them not to. Also maybe the Honorspren are autonomous enough to plan thier own stratagies. Besides can Odium truly kill Stormfather , like the stormfather existed even before the Shattering or atleast the Highstorm did and once manifested Spren can't truly die. Perhaps one incarnation of him will be murdered by odium but he will still survive but without investiture of honor or Tanavast's CS. Over a few hundred yrs or so , he might even recover from deadeye status. And yes , the honorspren themselves might be Splinters of honor but minuscule ones and Odium is only concerned about large Splinters like ol' Stormdaddy. So yeah. I think the Honorspren intend to stay out of the war or atleast be sieged for a while in Lasting Integrity until Odium finally leaves.

I have a theory regarding how truespren make it back into roshar the first time. This theory came about as a result of the scene where Shallan had to draw Pattern before he could manifest. That seemed odd to me that she had to do that when none of the other new Knights have had to do something similar. I think it has to do less with her drawing him, and more with the amount of creationspren she attracted doing so (the quote says hundreds of creationspren were drawn to her at that time.) My theory comes from an assumption that each true spren type has their own "squires" so to speak. Cryptics have creationspren, Honorspren have windspren, Cultivationspren have lifespren, the Bondsmith spren have gloryspren. ( I posit that there has to be a sufficiently large amount of these "squire" spren in an area to punch a whole between the Cognitive and Physical realm "big" enough for these true spren to come through. For Syl, that mean there needed to be enough windspren, say in a windy area like barren plains or when fighting with a spear, which has been stated to generate windspren. For Pattern, Shallan had to actually be creative enough to draw enough creationspren to allow pattern to fully manifest, rather than poking through like most spren do. Idk, what do you think. I think this theory has holes, but its going somewhere.

What are the mist spren that work as crew on Honor's Path. People have said that they are the truthwatcher spren, but I think the difference in appearance between of refracted light and mist with doll like hands and face is too big. I think they might be another sentient spren that simple does not or cannot create a nahel bond. Based on things that have happened in previous cosmere books I think it would make more sense if there were not 10, but 16 sentient types of spren.

Was Syl the only honorspren alive after the Recriance? If so, the new ones were created before or after Honor death?

When they're on the honorspren ship, Kaladin attracts some windspren. He does this by...thinking really hard? Anyone understand this...?

Syl is the only spren (as far as I can recall) to tell Kaladin her name. All the rest — Pattern, Ivory, Wyndle, Spark, etc. — were named by their Radiants. (I don't remember if Glys was a given name or a habituated name, but I think Renarin named him?). So did the Stormfather name her, maybe?

Exactly what it says on the tin. In theory, it seems like any sapient being should be able to hold a shard. In which case, a sapient spren probably qualifies. But if this is true it has some wierd implications.

Now, I know there have been multiple threads with this topic, but I haven't found one that just talks specifically about the spree. So here, now that we have seen ten different kinds of salient spree, I thought it would be nice to try to match them up. I will be listing the Order, Spren (My best guess), the mascot spren, and the underlying principle they personify. Here we go: Windrunners: Honorspren Windspren Honor Lightweavers: Liespren/Cryptics Creationspren The underlying mathematics and numbers of the world Elsecallers: Inkspren Logicspren Knowledge? (If ink represents words) Bondsmiths: Superspren Gloryspren (At least for the Stormfather one) Roshar? (Going by the theory of Growing/Sky/Sea/Earth/etc.) Releasers: Ashspren Firespren? (Someone else's theory I have mixed feelings about) Ruin/Destruction (Makes logical sense) Skybreakers: Highspren Starspren? (It sounds viable) Morals/Ethics/Law/Justice? Stonewards: Stonespren/Foundationspren/Earthspren (Based on Shadesmar description) ? ? Edgedancers: Cultivationspren Lifespren Cultivation Truthwatchers: ???? ? ? Willshapers: Likely Lightspren, but not quite confirmed ? Mystery? (I don't know, I'm reaching here)

So, this is actually a rather small post, but I feel it is important. Kaladin, as far as we've seen him, seems very honorable, always doing the right thing, and never really breaking the rules. He seems a bit too honorable, and he attracted an Honorspren. WoR spoiler This seems a little too similar to be a coincidence. Are the Nahel-bonding spren attracted to those similar in personality to them? Or, and this is an interesting thought, do they manipulate the person they plan on bonding to and change their personality, their intent? Syl confirms that she was following Kaladin since before he even joined Amaram's army, around the time he volunteered to go with his brother to defend him. Seems honorable. WoR spoiler

So, after reading the latest chapters here. I believe the conflict between the Honorspren and Cryptics is quite obvious (correct me if I'm wrong). That they are in conflict on whether or not they should bond with humans again. It is stated in chapter 3 of WoR: And this in chapter 6: Which implied that the cryptics CHOSE Shallan (I believe that Pattern found Shallan at a young age and followed her, observing her - then had the other cryptics follow her to see if they approved, that is why she saw tons of them the months before she entered shadesmar - but this is neither here nor there.) This implies that the cryptics are actively trying to bond with KR candidates - at least I think that this is what this implies. And lastly, we have this from Syl in chapter 9: She was forbidden to come, but she came anyways. Also, she is the ONLY honorspren who has come. It must have been a big deal, because she clames she disobeyed the stormfather: (*note* I belive this helps add some weight behind the theory that the Almighty and Stormfather are two seperate entities) I believe this creates a solid argument, pick it apart if you can!

I see a lot of people talking about Honorspens in particular as if it's an accepted fact that they are what where left when Odium killed Honor. Is there very good explenation for this? As I see it, spren cant be a slinter of honor beacuse they existed before Honor where killed, I agree with copermind that sprens are a merge of the powers of Honor and Conservation, in place of giving a part of there powers to humans as preservation and ruin did they gave there powers to the spren. so that all magic that humans can use is as a result of spren's giving them access to the shard magic. If Honor spren where a splinter of Honor, then Honor where killed by Odium before the Hearalds gave up there blades. The reason is the Nohadon knew about spren and Honor spren if they where a splinter then Honor where dead, but he where killed somewhere between the day of recreance and today. Can someone explain what it is that I have missed her?

Hey guys, I've been skimming over the associations between the 4 developing Knights Radiant we've seen (including the one from the WoR interlude) and the Heralds. It makes sense that they seem to have matching character attributes (e.g. Kaladin clearly has Jezrien's "Divine Attributes" of protecting/leading), but I noticed that all 4 Knights also match the genders of their respective Heralds. I want to throw a few ideas around for discussion: Brandon's mentioned that we've met multiple Heralds already, beyond the opening chapter in WoK. Is it possible that there's some reincarnation or amnesia element that could make one of our main characters an actual Herald without us knowing? If this gender aspect is, in fact, not just by chance, it opens the way for new guesses on people who could develop into Radiants. Note that there can only be one new female character that becomes a Knight (since we've got 3 female Radiants already out of the 4 female Heralds), and that person would have to match the attributes of Chach (bravery/obedience) I haven't seen anything that completely nails down the mechanics of how spren are involved in the evolution of a Radiant, but does it matter that Syl is female while Kaladin is male?

There are probably some issues with this, and for that I apologise. I'm not quite down on the Stormlight Archive lore just yet. But I thought I'd put this out there for you all to shoot down This came up in a thread about defining Honour. Gloom's post reminded me of a certain kind of Feruchemy... Thoughts?