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Found 114 results

  1. By now, we know it is possible to actually kill the Heralds and not just kill them through the use of a dagger from Odium's investiture and that Moash has been entrusted with it along with Jezrien's Honorblade. But it kind of strikes me as unusual that they only armed him with the honorblade after he has already murdered Jezrien. Is there any implication with him having it while he tried to kill the herald? I know that killing Jezrien is meant to be seen as more of a test of his loyalty/passion, but what if it wasn't an actual test but a requirement? What if they have a plan with Moash? One that might possibly involve killing all of the heralds and bonding with all of their honorblades? We already have a WoB that says a Radiant CAN bond with an honorblade, therefore giving him access to additional surges or making his surges a bit stronger if he has the honorblade of his own order. Can you imagine how powerful one man can become if he bonds with all ten of the honorblades? Wouldn't that make him the closest one to actually becoming Honor? What if this is Odium's plan for him all along? To have Moash gather all of the honorblades, then gather all of the splinters. Only now, he would become a twisted version of Honor, maybe Loyalty? Honoring his debt of gratitude from Odium? Seems to me that Moash's whole journey focuses about his revenge and lack of honor (betraying Kaladin). Is he fated to realize his mistakes and actually become the new shard of Honor? Not to mention also that the original Parshendi were also from Honor. What if they were working against Odium to restore their old god? What do you guys think?
  2. Odium is usually depicted as the big bad and his Intent reduced to Hatred while Honor is considered good with all the positive connotation that word has and him helping humanity. I think this is intentional misleading by choice of name and their Intent is not limited to the word. Odium says that he is about passion and I am inclined to believe him. Honor is more about binding to an idea like an oath or a spren, less about this oath being good or honorable. While Odium is crafty and none of what he says should be taken as fact, we should not do the opposite either and discard everything because it is an evil corruptor saying it. Neither should everything Honor and/or the Stormfather says be taken as fact. Odium's splintering of Devotion and Dominion was not necessarily an evil act because we do not know how those shards were while alive and they did break a part of the original pact of the vessels. What I miss about Odium's passions though is love, so what about if he once loved and was betrayed by that love, breaking him forever. Not love for a fellow shard but love for a people. When he came to Greater Roshan, he invested on Ashyn and became god to the humans there and fell in love with them. But Odium's touch is passion in excess and passionate use and abuse of investiture led to the great catastrophy that devastated Ashyn. Odium still loved his people though so he went to Roshan and asked Honor and Cultivation for a place for his people. But Honor claimed that the humans were unsafe with investiture so he demanded that Odium make a pact with Honor that he would make sure the humans would not get their hands on investiture, leave Shinovar or something similar. So the humans moved to Shinovar, isolated from the rest of Roshan and from the highstorms by the mountains, Odium's command and maybe a pact. Honor on the other hand did not love his people, the singers and saw in the pact with Odium a chance to do what he was good at, binding him, into a prison. Maybe he was afraid, as Honor and Cultivation were in a similar position as Devotion and Dominion. So when discontent increased in the upper class of the humans about the lack of power from investiture and being isolated, Honor found 5 men and 5 women and lured them with promises of power and conquest to make the Oathpact, binding them to him and giving them access to investiture (SF I think claims the Oathpact was a reaction to the Fused but that does not make it fact). So Odium's beloved people betrayed him with the help of Honor, binding him to a prison consisting of the pact Odium made with Honor for the benefit of this people. Odium's Passion broke, splintering Love away from him, the remnant now dominated by Hatred. Betrayed to the humans by their gods Honor and Cultivation, the singers were desperate as the first desolation swept over them, so they and Odium were natural allies. This started the cycle of desolations. Well, most of this is not based in fact (and the exact wording of any pact as prize for Shinovar would matter a lot), the intention is just to show that perception matters and if you avoid seeing Odium as absolute evil and Honor as good, interesting interpretations open up.
  3. So I know there's a theory going that when Dalinar united the three realms, and Odium said "we killed you", he was referring to Adonalsium rather than Honor; that somehow (either in the spiritual realm or the beyond) Odium saw Adonalsium in the perpendicularity Dalinar created. I won't go into it all here, but I was thinking about the letters from various shards to Hoid in the epigraphs and started wondering about Hoid's motives. The letters seem to imply that Hoid has contacted multiple shards of Adonalsium and asked them to assist in the conflict on Roshar. On the surface it would appear that he wants their assistance in stopping Rayse, but is it really that straightforward? It seems very un-Hoidlike to simply ask directly for help, and he even contacted Autonomy (who he isn't on good terms with) and Harmony (who he doesn't really know personally). Dalinar's power allows him to bind together the spren of something that has been shattered but remember being whole, and we know from the Stormfather's reaction (and Odium's) that his ability to manifest a perpendicularity is unprecendented, and makes it possible that Dalinar has access to LOT of power in this department. I think it's possible Dalinar could restore a splintered Shard in the right circumstances, but could he do more and restore Adonalsium itself? If this is the case, and if Hoid knew this, then his attempt to lure the other shards to Roshar could actually be part of a plan to get Dalinar to "Unite" the shards, restoring Adonalsium. This is just wild speculation, I'm not actually 100% sold on the whole "Odium saw Adonalsium". I do think Hoid's letters tie in nicely with it, but I would also like to discuss some evidence that contradicts it. It's still quite possible that Odium was referring to Honor when he said "we killed you", the "we" implying that Odium wasn't acting alone when he splintered Honor. If this is the case, my money would be on him working with Autonomy, after all we do have this epigraph... ...which seems to suggest Autonomy's involvement. So what do people think? Was Odium referring to Adonalsium or Honor when he said "we killed you"?
  4. At the Battle of Thaylenah, when Dalinar accesses Honor's perpendicularity, Gloryspren surged all around him, letting him ascend. So we know for ascension, even temporary ascension, it requires large amounts of investiture, which came partially from having access to Honor's investiture in the spiritual realm through the Stormfather and perpendicularity. But that does not explain why Gloryspren surrounded him and made a pillar of light. The Gloryspren appeared before when he used his powers to repair Thaylenah: The gloryspren saved him from falling to Odium: The Gloryspren are the splinters of Honor. In the above quote the gloryspren wasn't attracted to glory because Dalinar had no glory, but it was still attracted to Dalinar because he had access Honor's perpendicularity and Honor's shadow, the Stormfather. Honor's power is the ability to create bonds, so its only natural that the splinters of Honor would want to come back together when a significant portion, Honor's perpendicularity and shadow, are already connected to each other. Edit: I mean that the Gloryspren are the splinters of Honor that formed Honor before Odium shattered him. So Odium shattered Honor, and then those splinters became gloryspren.
  5. Might we see Dalinar ascend to form the shard Unity? Thoughts?
  6. What is honor's perpendicularity?? Does it makes odium vulnerable?
  7. Exactly what it says on the tin. In theory, it seems like any sapient being should be able to hold a shard. In which case, a sapient spren probably qualifies. But if this is true it has some wierd implications.
  8. In ch. 119 of OB Taln became lucid as soon as Dalinar released Honor's Perpendicularity, and in ch. 121 we find out that he regressed before the fighting started i.e. when the Perpendicularity disappeared. Could there be a connection between Honor's power and Taln's soul? Is Tanavast's madness related to this?
  9. I was reading a thread the other day- Regarding the Secret That Broke The Knights Radiant and the topic of the various ethnic groups of Rosharans came up. @Heir of the Void wrote this interesting post to cap off the discussion, and it got me thinking. I agree with these ideas, broadly. The best way to explain the bizarre spread of human ethnic groups across Roshar in my mind is if they based their expansion on the Oathgates. That represents the ten silver kingdoms and the ten major ethnic-culture groups of Roshar. Expanding on this- we know Honor had a Perpendicularity, but it was lost when he died. What if Honor's Perpendicularity WAS based roughly at the site of Urithiru? Cultivation's Perpendicularity is in high mountains as well (the Horneater Peaks). The best way to get between worlds is through Shadesmar, so if a large population of humans transported into Shadesmar to escape the destruction of their planet, they could walk or sail to Honor's Perpendicularity and then use it to enter Roshar itself. There are several possibilities from here: 1) Urithiru and the Oathgates were already there, and it was inhabited by the Dawnsingers. The humans negotiated with them and were thus granted Shinovar. Over time they grew restless, and used the Shinovar gate to return and conquer Urithiru, and then each group claimed one Oathgate for themselves, conquering the land around it on the other side. 2) As above, but the Shin were the first group. They were satisfied with Shinovar. But, other human groups migrated as well, possibly from even more planets, and each group claimed an Oathgate and the land on the other side. 3) Urithiru and the Oathgates were NOT there, and the refugees were led by land to Shinovar. The Oathgate was built to allow quick transportation between Shinovar and the Perpendicularity, and the ten groups spread out over land to conquer a land each for themselves, constructing Oathgates in turn, and eventually they build Urithiru. My main contention is that I think Honor's Perpendicularity was originally based where Urithiru is now, and that is why the Oathgates and the tower were built there. This provides a way for all ten kingdoms and ethnic groups to spread out and settle in entirely different regions, while still being linked to a single location through which to plan and coordinate in response to later Desolations. What do you guys think?
  10. This topic’s called Consequences of Honor, but I think we should really be looking at the consequences of a lack of honor. Well, a lack of Honor. Let me explain. We all know that Honor was splintered, and that Honor used to have certain ‘checks’ on Surgebinding. These checks, along with Honor himself, are gone after the Splintering. What were these checks, though? I think we may have already seen a few things Honor might not have wanted to happen. Example 1: Kaladin and his magical highstorm-stopping wall. We’ve theorized that this was a use of his Adhesion Surge, maniplulating pressure to divert the highstorm around himself. I do think that is probably true, but the important thing that I noticed was that Syl had never heard of anyone doing that before. It’s a new, scarily powerful thing. Example 2: Unity. Dalinar’s moment of Ascension was awesome, and true, it’s most likely due to his bonding a big piece of Honor’s power, but that doesn’t mean it’s not dangerous. Having a Perpendicularity on call? That’s scary. Example 3: Shallan’s Lightweaved army. She’s still only at her 4th Oath, as far as we know, and it’s surprising she was able to summon that ridiculous number of illusions out of nowhere. It’s a huge power boost from what she used to be at. Also, I’d like to talk about how her illusions had mass, and splattered illusions of blood, too, even though she’s not at all practiced with Soulcasting, which is what she assumed was going on. There might be other examples that I missed, or there might be perfectly reasonable ideas for why these types of powers seem to be new, surprisingly powerful manifestations of Surgebinding. I invite you all to try and tear my theory apart!
  11. So just a crazy theory here. From Oathbringer we know that the Parsh were attempting to get to Feverstone Keep right before the Recreance, which is where many of the KR left their blade and plate. I think that the Parsh could have been trying to reach Honor's perpendicularity to complete the shattering that had started earlier and then they succeded. When honor was shattered that killed any spen who were currently in a nahel bond. The KR were then left with dead spren screaming at them and immediately left their blade and plate behind. The felt they had broken some sort of oath because they allowed Honor's shattering. But they did not break their nahel bond oaths. With regard to the skybreakers, it has been said that they maintained their oaths. I think it is possible however that the skybrakers who were KR at the time still abandoned their blades and plate but continued their culture and attempted to recruit new spren/acolytes with the guidance of Nale. Finally with regard to the spen who believe that the KR had broken their oaths, they would have only seen spren deaths from broken oaths prior so it is natural to assume that the spren that died were due to broken oaths. Also it is unlikely that any higher spren was present as the stay mainly in shadesmar unless part of a bond, in which case they would have died. I think this may be true as the "secret" behind the recreance seems rather underwhelming and already know among the KR and the shattering o Honor has already been linked to the recreance. So I think it is possible that instead of breaking the nahel bonds, those bonds were instead broken by Honor's shattering.
  12. Sorry if this was posted before, I did try and look to see if was already out there. I just finished reading Oathbringer and something really stuck to me about Honor or more actually about his death. I am at school right now and don't have access to the book and I will edit this later, just have to get this off my mind. I don't think Honor was Shattered. Or at least if he did, it was on purpose. He gave the the Stormfather the go ahead to make Honor spren Told the spren at the Oathgates to make sure no one uses it to travel, these spren also note that Honor was acting strange in his last days Dalinar's visions would require planning Epigraph # 67 really helps this theory "This generation has had only one Bondsmith, and some blame the divisions among us upon this fact. The true problem is far deeper. I believe that Honor himself is changing." when Dalinar says "I am Unity" “I will take responsibility for what I have done. If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man. ” — The Third Ideal of the Bondsmiths[7] To what purpose or what made him start to change i don't know, but I think it might have to do with something about Humans Vs Parshmen. He decided to shatter himself and become a new shard Unity to stop the fighting. Cultivation might have her part to play in this by making or should I say cultivating Dalinar into a Bondsmith to "Unite Them" or to reassemble Honor and his shard.
  13. So now we have confirmation that humans came to Roshar from somewhere else. People have theorized before that humanity might have come to Roshar from Ashyn, and I believe more than ever that this is the case. Firstly....from what little we know of Ashyn via WoBs and his readings from it, that world suffered some form of cataclysm in the past, stemming from the disease based magic people used there. However, just because humans on Roshar arrived there after a great cataclysm on their original world, that doesn't mean that ALL the humans from their original world left it. Some might have remained behind, and that, I posit, are the people in the scattered cities that make up the remnant of civilization on Ashyn. Secondly, we know that humans, as the original Voidbringers, were responsible for the destruction of their original world and the Recreance and Nale's later actions resulted from a fear that Surgebinders, unchecked, would do the same to Roshar. However, this does not inherently mean that Surgebinding was responsible for the destruction of the first world. Indeed, we have this line from Chapter 113: The way this is phrased makes me feel that Honor was not saying that Surgebinders would destroy their world again, but rather that Surgebinders would do to Roshar what the humans of the Tranquiline Halls did to their world with the magic system of that world. We know that magic systems are born of the interaction between a Shard's Investiture and the planet they're on, and while they have some control over how their magic system works or is shaped, there are some things they can't control. Due to the greater presence of Adonalsium's Investiture on Roshar in the form of spren, Honor and Cultivation, upon arriving and Investing in Roshar, found spren the channel through which their Investiture and magic was shaped. But on their previous planet, whether that was Ashyn or somewhere else, their Investiture might have resulted in a very different magic system (or more than one). We know that the magic on Ashyn takes the form of diseases (or more accurately) bacteria, that when infecting a human host also grants that human some form of magic ability for as long as they remain infected. Some of these abilities are innocuous, some moderately useful, and others catastrophically destructive. However all of them, regardless of the end result of the ability, play into the same underlying nature: gain comes at cost. Power paired with weakness. And where else have we seen such an underlying nature? With the Nightwatcher's boons and curses, rumored to be associated with both Cultivation and the Old Magic. Petitioners seek out the Nightwatcher to ask a boon, a favor, something that can be used to better themselves or their situation or act as some form of power or ability....but such a thing comes at a cost, as they are stricken with a curse as well, something that takes something from them or impairs them in some way. Not unlike a disease. In fact, consider that the boons and curses bestowed by the Nightwatcher all seem to be neurological in some way, from what we've seen so far...and bacteria and diseases can certainly affect neurology. On Ashyn, it's not just that diseases grant magic, from what little we've seen of it in Brandon's readings. From what we've seen, the civilization on Ashyn actively CULTIVATES these diseases, employing people as human incubators to keep certain strains of bacteria around and viable should they ever have need of the ability bestowed by that disease. My theory is that the disease magic of Ashyn was Cultivation's original magic system, the form her Investiture took when interacting with Ashyn, and some Splinter of her still remains behind on Ashyn even if no Perpendicularity does, and fuels what's left of Ashyn's magic. When she moved to Roshar with the humans who fled from it, her Investiture took a new form, as did Honor's, and created a new magic, Surgebinding. However, perhaps some remnants of her original magic came with her and is evident in the Nightwatcher, or perhaps some magic practitioners from Ashyn carried some lingering strains with them when they came....and this is the Old Magic, echoes or pieces of Cultivation's first magic system, which exists separate from Surgebinding but can still manipulate biology (and neurology) in some small ways, even stranded from Ashyn, the planet that birthed this magic via its interaction with Cultivation's Investiture. While the epigraphs in Oathbreaker seem to imply at least one Shard (most likely Autonomy) claims "many lands" and as such, possibly is Invested in multiple worlds and magic systems, we have no real idea yet of what that might mean, or how different magic systems born of a Shard's Investiture might look given the key role a Shardworld plays in shaping these magic systems. My theory is that it's less important to look at the trappings of various magic systems, the mechanisms or the fuel sources, and look at the Intent underneath for any commonalities. If I'm correct, and Ashyn's disease magic is born of Cultivation, same as the Nightwatcher's boons and curses, and half of Surgebinding, the unifying commonality in all of Cultivation's magic is that to gain something, you must give something. That reward comes at cost. Even at its most base definition, cultivation by its nature is progress resulting from labor, effort and time. Nothing is cultivated for free, or even cheaply. The more you put into trying to cultivate something, the greater your gains. By extrapolating this union between Intent and magic, the greater the power resulting from a disease on Ashyn, the more deadly the disease or more horrific or taxing the symptoms are likely to be. The greater the boon, or gift, or request made of the Nightwatcher, the more debilitating or impairing the curse granted alongside it. And with Surgebinding, the greater the skill and power wielded by a Surgebinder, the more effort, honor, sacrifice the Surgebinder has to put into Cultivating their bond with a spren. The most powerful abilities are unlocked only at the recitation and understanding of the highest Ideals, which as we've seen, do not come cheaply to Surgebinders. To wield Surgebinding at its most powerful levels, a Knight Radiant must all but give him or herself fully over to the bond with their spren and their service to certain ideals. To gain you must give. The more you give, the more you gain. Something too that I've noted, is that Cultivation's magic (via this interpretation) is not aimed at being most beneficial to an individual, but rather to a civilization or society as a whole. With the disease magic on Ashyn, the civilization we saw is structured around employing people as incubators to specific diseases not for the benefit of the individual who gets that disease, but rather if the greater populace has need of that ability. We didn't see people running around infecting themselves to have abilities, but rather society doling out diseases as befitted the needs of society. Similarly, on Roshar, the Cultivation of Honor that fuels Surgebinding is not in service to the individual Surgebinder, but rather advocates by its very nature for a Surgebinder to become a champion of society, of the greater good, the overall populace. Power granted in largest doses not to the individual who seeks it for himself, but doled out instead to the individual who seeks to use it for Honor, for Justice, for the good of all. All of this matches the Intent of Cultivation, which is a term generally used on a large macro scale, rather than a micro. You can cultivate things for and of yourself, but for the most part, cultivation is done on a society wide level. According to this interpretation of magic and Investiture, had Ruin Invested on planets besides Scadrial, other magic systems of his might not have matched hemalurgy in that it required spiking various points in a spiritweb, or using metal, or even in stealing attributes. But its likely that all magic systems fueled by his Investiture would have the underlying commonality that they feed entropy. They Ruin, they enhance decay or degradation, they follow a law of diminishing returns. Were Endowment to Invest on other worlds and fuel more magic systems, they would all likely involve a gift, as in Breath, as a catalyst, with the act of gifting or endowing being crucial to the advancement of magic. And so on. Which brings us to Honor, and the Dawnshards. From what little we know of the Dawnshards, they have the power to bind any creature, voidish or mortal. By this theory, if Honor were to fuel more than one magic system, the underlying commonality due to his Intent is that his magic is always a thing of binding. On Roshar, with Investiture resulting in honorspren, that magic became Surgebinding, creating bonds between humans and ideas-made-flesh, with this bond being what allowed for the governing of natural forces such as gravity and friction. On Ashyn, where there were no spren, the magic that resulted might have looked very different....but still involved the binding of things. The only part of this theory I'm uncertain about is whether all Shard's Investiture, as influenced by a Shardworld, MUST take the same form - or if a Shardworld could interact with two different Shards in two different ways. This is true of everything we've seen so far where two or more Shards Invest in the same Shardworld, with spren on Roshar, metals on Scadrial, geographic identities and shapes on Sel. But just because it's all we've seen so far, doesn't mean that its automatically true for all Shards and all Shardworlds, and that there aren't exceptions or loopholes. I believe that Honor was previously Invested on Ashyn, along with Cultivation, but while her Investiture manifested via bacteria and resulted in disease magic....I believe that Honor's previous Investiture on Ashyn took the form of the Dawnshards or rather that whatever it is they truly are, they're the remnants of Honor's magic that were brought to Roshar when he and the humans came, just as the Old Magic is the echo of Cultivation's previous disease magic. Whether there is some link between the Dawnshards and disease magic, or that Honor interacted with the disease magic in Ashyn that I'm not thinking of because we have so very little information there with which to speculate - these are entirely possible. Or, alternatively, the Dawnshards represent a wholly different magic system that was fueled solely by Honor's Investiture while the disease magic was fueled by Cultivation (at least until Odium arrived, and possibly Invested on Ashyn resulting in bacteria/diseases that led to the humans of that world largely destroying it). Related to this theory but slightly tangential: Following the line of these thoughts, I do think that the fact that The Silence Divine reveals there are still people living on Ashyn and still using the disease magic means that there must be some Investiture still fueling it....meaning that Cultivation likely left a Splinter of herself behind, either intentionally or on accident, when she left for Roshar. However, if this is true, it could be the reason why Honor took the brunt of keeping Odium imprisoned via the Oathpact and his Heralds, while also explaining why Odium might have a trickier time Shattering Cultivation than he did Honor....because she's not entirely there on Roshar, and to completely kill or Shatter her, Odium would have to return himself or part of his Investiture to Ashyn and eliminate her there too, which he's either unable or unwilling to do, given the nature of his imprisonment and his focus on Roshar.
  14. This is a tenuous theory, but here goes... We know that Honor's perpendicularity moves. (and I'll spoiler quotes for size reasons) So understandably a possible theory is that it's in the Highstorms. But I just read something I'd never seen before, a scene from between WoR and Oathbringer that Brandon published on the Tor website back in 2014. So the Highstorm containing the perpendicularity doesn't make sense to me. The Highstorms sweep across Roshar pretty fast, so there's no way they could catch up with it, there's no reason to go north or south because it covers the continent. For it to be very distant, and them to walk to it, it must be in a relatively set location at the time of these events, not sweeping across the continent. So to me that largely rules out the Highstorm. Now, we know from here that Jasnah, after escaping the Cognitive Realm, ended up in the Unclaimed Hills. So I know Jasnah elsecalled to that location, that's made clear by her means of arrival, Hoid and WoBs. We know that Jasnah could not Elsecall directly out of the Cognitive Realm without getting to a 'juncture' (a perpendicularity). Perhaps that just as she didn't have enough Stormlight (it would surprise me if one can only Elsecall near a perpendicularity as that would make it a pretty useless power). So to me, the reason they need to find a juncture is presumably to either access more Stormlight (as we know the Cognitive Realms is Stormlight-poor), or more likely because with the amount she has she needs to be much closer to a place where the boundaries between the realms are particularly thin. We also know from WoR that she didn't mean to Elsecall to exactly where she was, because she was trying to escape. But as she's in the Unclaimed Hills, which are between Alethkar and the Shattered Plains (well, part of them anyway), I'm assuming she didn't Elsecall to somewhere completely random on Roshar, but just to somewhere pretty near the point that she left the Cognitive Realm. This would also make sense given the Unclaimed Hills are a kind-of appropriate distance from where she entered the Cognitive Realm, given Ivory said the perpendicularity is very distant, and given we know it took her a long time from entering the Cognitive Realm before arriving back in the Physical Realm - but it's not like she's on the other side of Roshar. For reference, here's the Roshar map. So, on these bases, and admitting there are quite a few assumptions there, I think at the time of her escape, she needed to get to Honor's perpendicularity, which was in or near (relative to Roshar) the Unclaimed Hills. Add to that the idea that Honor's perpendicularity was in that location for long enough for Ivory to say they needed to get there (I think that would be difficult if it was moving constantly over a large distance). The question is then why would it be there, as opposed to anywhere else in Roshar, at that time. Which brings me to my idea. Part of the Unclaimed Hills is wedged right between Alethkar and the Shattered Plains. Basically it's all largely north, but part is north-west, between the two regions. What is going on in the Shattered Plains at the time, that is going on a lot less everywhere else in Roshar? The active use of investiture, through both some live-spren surgebinding and of course through quite a bit trapped-spren surgebinding (in the form of many of the world's Shardblades in use there). So my theory is that Honor's perpendicularity moves around Roshar towards the place that has the most active use of investiture. Not in the form of spren, they are everywhere (except Shinovar) but their investiture is not being used, nothing is being drawn from the Spiritual Realm. Same with the Highstorms, where investiture can be trapped by spheres but is not actually being drawn on. I think when Stormlight is being drawn from the Spiritual Realm, Honor's perpendicularity basically gravitates towards it. The reason the perpendicularity isn't in the Shattered Plains is because that's not the only place investiture is being used. Most of it is there, but there is still some Shardblades and Shardplate being used, and drawing investiture through the Stormlight trapped in Spheres, in other parts of Roshar, particularly Alethkar. Which drags the perpendicularity slightly further west, and a little north. Into the Unclaimed Hills (or thereabouts). So that's that. I simply couldn't find enough evidence on this subject to be at all confident about this theory. And there are a number of assumptions. But I feel it has some backing and I wanted to put it out there for thoughts, corrections, dismantling or perhaps support.
  15. A sudden thought. Dalinar is a Bondsmith of Honor. Honor is dead. Odium talks to Dalinar and implies that Dalinar has the power to release Odium from the contracts/bonds Honor has placed on Odium. My conclusion from this is that in becoming the Bondsmith of Honor - by virtue of Honor being dead - Dalinar has become essentially the Executor of Honor's Will, and can enter new contracts, and modify existing contracts/Oaths on Honor's behalf. One of these contracts is the Oathpact. Thoughts?
  16. In one of Dalinars flashbacks, he met a beggar in The Beggar's Court at the Royal Palace to share his drink. Could this beggar have been Jezrien, The Herald King, Patron of the Windrunner later killed truly by Moash?
  17. We learned a lot of information in Oathbringer, and it's taken me quite a few days to process what I've read. A lot of that processing seems to happen as I'm lying in bed half asleep, and that is where this theory comes from. TDLR; Surges came first, Honor bound them to Heralds and his Investiture via the Oathpact, and this was done to help stop surges from destroying Roshar during Desolations. Now that the TLDR is out of the way, let me actually explain where my brain went with this. 1. Humans, according to OB, came to Roshar because they'd destroyed their home with Surgebinding. -- I believe that it's being called surgebinding because that's how the powers are known on Roshar at this time. My theory postulates that humans had Surges, ALL surges, in an unchecked manner and this led to the Cataclysm on Ashyn (likely) or whatever their original home was. They were able to use Surges because it it simply just channeled/focused Investiture. It did not *require* Stormlight, but whatever the equivalent is where they are from. 2. Humans came to Roshar, as refugees, Odium followed them, and they were accepted there. -- At first they settled in fine, but then decided they wanted more... seems plausible. In the book we're told the humans were the enemy in the first Desolation (if not some of the first few Desolations). I can buy this. They would have been seen as invaders, as is evident by the Fused's hatred of humanity. There are still remnants of human worship of Odium on Roshar (in the form of Thaylen Passions, as one example). 3. Odium is the side with the most Passion. -- I believe the reason Dalinar's visions show humans fighting humans fighting parsh, et al, is because there were not distinct sides. Odium basically liked to stoke the coals and cause a ruckus in order to inspire passion. Early Desolations were a manifestation of this I believe, and throughout the years people simply gravitated to the side they were more comfortable with. 4. Early Surges were unchecked. Hence, the Oathpact. -- Here comes part of the meat of my theory. I believe early use of surges were unchecked, and all surges were accessible by anyone who drew upon Investiture to use them. This made them extremely dangerous. Also I believe ANY Investiture could fuel them. Therefore my theory postulates that 9 of the Heralds (not Taln) were men and women who could use all surges AND were in positions of power in Roshar were chosen by Odium during the creation of the Oathpact. The Oathpact was a way for Honor to allow Surges to remain on this world, but be limited and bound by oaths, so as to not destroy it like it did the previous world humans occupied. Taln was selected by Honor. I don't necessarily think the Heralds were told they were selected or by whom. I also think this is why today it's called Surgebinding. Honor literally bound the Surges, and bound them to HIS Investiture, created the Honorblades as a way to limit how many surges of what type could be used in conjunction and that this is the basic idea of the Oathpact. Honor did not want these surges on Roshar all the time, so the agreement was made that after each Desolation the Heralds would go to Damnation to give humans time without them. I don't think Honor counted on the Spren trying to mimic the Honorblades. The KR were then formed to keep the spren in check and to keep humans further bound by oaths in order to use Surges. This was all rolled into the Oathpact. EDIT: After reading some WoBs I'm adjusting my theory a bit to account for information I did not have while sleeping... 5. Odium sidesteps the Oathpact. -- Once the Surges were no longer free to be used by anyone, Odium was at a disadvantage. He began by torturing the Heralds, trying to corrupt them. I think their Connection to Honor was too strong to be corrupted, so he turned to the next best thing... the spirits of the dead parsh from the early Desolations. (He still tortured the Heralds, as we know, and he did so to begin new Desolations as soon as he could following the last one). He couldn't allow them to use Surges, since he Surgebinding is bound by the Oathpact, but he sidesteps this with what we know as "Voidbinding", a corrupted version of Surges, likely powered by one or more of the Unmade. This is legal since the Unmade are not likely part of the Oathpact. 6. The Death of Honor. -- Wild tin-foil part of this theory is that the Heralds themselves, with the help of Odium, killed Tanavast and splintered Honor. WHY??? Why would the Heralds do this?? Because he was weakening. I posit that the Heralds believed that if Tanavast was killed someone would take up the Shard and strengthen Honor and keep the Oathpact strong. Odium swooped in and Splintered Honor before that could happen. This is all extremely unlikely, but it kind of fits the narrative I have going here so I forced myself to write it anyway. So, here we have it. This is what I ended up with after digesting the information given to us in Oathbringer. I only have a physical copy of the book, so I don't have actual quotes in this post, but I can probably work to find some. I'm pretty happy with this theory, even though I'm probably wrong in most, if not all, of it, but it's what my brain concluded while I was asleep so I thought I'd share and see what the other more-cosmere-aware folks here thought about it.
  18. Hold the secret that broke the Knights Radiant. You may need it to destroy the new orders when they return. - WOR Chapter 84 epigraph (decoded) Now, as the Windrunners were thus engaged, arose the event which has hitherto been referenced: namely, that discovery of some wicked thing of eminence -- WOR Chapter 38 epigraph These epigraphs strongly imply that the Recreance was precipitated by the KR discovering some terrible fact. It doesn't seem to have been tied to any corruption that may have crept in to the Orders (the taxes for travel through Urithiru, etc.) Now, here's something anomalous. The Desolations devastated Roshar, killing something like 90 percent of the human population and knocking technology back to the stone age, at least sometimes. Yet when Honor was Splintered (after the Recreance -- he remembers it in the visions) there seems to have been no such cataclysm. Aharietiam is still seen as "the Last Desolation", which it wouldn't be if another apocalyptic event had occurred since the Recreance. Similarly, Odium Splintered Devotion and Dominion on Sel. But humanity on that planet survived; he didn't destroy the planet, depopulate it, or warp it into some kind of a hellscape. So why the devastating, lethal Desolations on Roshar before the Recreance? Because humans were fighting on Honor's side. Odium doesn't really care about killing humans, except incidentally to getting at the Shards; nothing much below the power-level of a Herald registers on his "radar screen" Therefore, my proposal for the Secret That Broke The KR is: Honor's been feeding us into a meat grinder for thousands of years to protect Cultivation and a couple of alien gods we'll never see. If we let Odium win, nothing bad really happens to humanity. Honor betrayed us. Our spren have been in on it, all along - they're pieces of Honor. So let him die.
  19. Prepare your tinfoil hats and bear with me. So I found this little WoB on facebook: QUESTIONER: Is Adolin and Shallan going to get together, or will Kaladin and Shallan? BRANDON SANDERSON: That is quite the question. I will eventually answer that, but you are getting Read-and-Find-Outed. It is intentionally a bit of a mimicry of something else that happened in the past. [Source:] And it immediately made me (and other people, based on the comments) think of the Honor-Cultivation-Odium situation that supposedly happened. The obvious reaction to that would be that Shallan, as the female is Cultivation and Kaladin, having a HONORspren would be Honor...or would he? Now let's look at this little blurb from the back of WoK: There are four whom we watch. The first is the surgeon, forced to put aside healing to become a soldier in the most brutal war of our time. The second is the assassin, a murderer who weeps as he kills. The third is the liar, a young woman who wears a scholar’s mantle over the heart of a thief. The last is the highprince, a warlord whose eyes have opened to the past as his thirst for battle wanes. The world can change. Surgebinding and Shardwielding can return; the magics of ancient days can become ours again. These four people are key. One of them may redeem us. And one of them will destroy us. So the possibilities for Odium's champion are: - Szeth (too obvious) - Shallan (we already ruled that out) - Dalinar (but it'd spoil his "redemption arc" with turning from being the blood-lusty Blackthorn to being the wise leader) - Kaladin (who even based solely on this blurb I'd guess to be the Champion.) So we have a proof that the "Darth Adolin" theory that became so popular, seeing him as the obvious choice for the Champion is pure chulldung as he's not even mentioned and if this "love triangle" is really supposed to mimic the situation with rosharan shards, we'll probably all cry for Kaladin. A lot. Feel free to yell at me if you disagree or if this has been said before. OB pre-released chapters spoilers hat (I think) back up Kaladin being the Odium's champion:
  20. What follows is my current theory on how the 10 Heralds became the 10 fool's through the coarse of the Desolations. I will update this post as it evolves. I will try to provide links to all WOB. Quotes will come from the kindle versions of the books via cut and paste. I will list book, chapter, and location number. Bold will be my emphasis. Italics will be possible contradictory evidence. Number 18 here From Reddit Fantasy Bookclub Q&A with Brandon Sanderson Feb 28th, 2011 We will start with this quote which shows us all Heralds were in WOK. First, the Desolations occurred when the Heralds were sent back to Roshar after one of them broke under the torture of Odium. Second, each Herald is associated with a primary and secondary Divine Attribute. (Possibly primary from Honor, Secondary from Cultivation?) Third, the torture does not happen in the physical realm. It occurs in either the cognitive, or more likely the spiritual realm. Fourth, when Odium breaks a Herald, he is literally breaking part of that Heralds spiritual connection to the Divine Attribute. Fifth, Odium's goal was to break all the Heralds and bring about the the Everstorm, allowing him to shatter Honor and Cultivation. Sixth, breaking the Divine Attributes shifted them towards something more compatible with Odium and less compatible with Honor. This resulted in the attributes associated with the 10 Fool's. Number 19 in this WOB, says each is uniquely insane. NOTE: One of the biggliest issues with this theory is not knowing the 10 Fools attributes. Two Fools are named. Two have attributes. Cabine - He acts like a child although he is an adult. TWOK chapter 37, page 593, location 10668 Eshu - He speaks of things he does not understand in front of those who do. WOR chapter 71, page 593, location 16877 One issue I have here is that the 2 Heralds I would link these two too are both female. Paliah and Battar. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1) We have a WOB on this. Not a confirmation, but along those lines. 2) Herald. Primary Divine Attribute. Secondary Divine Attribute. Jezrien. Protecting. Leading Nale. Just. Confident Chanarach. Brave. Obedient Vedel. Loving. Healing Paliah. Learned. Giving Shalash. Creative. Honest Battar. Wise. Careful Kalak. Resolute. Builder Talenel. Dependable. Resourceful Ishar. Pious. Guiding 3) Since Odium was attempting to break the Heralds focus on their Divine Attribute, the torture most likely took place in the spiritual realm. The spren would probably know something if it took place in the cognitive realm. One thing pointing to the cognitive realm though is the fact that Taln appeared covered in condensation much like a shardblade. 4) By breaking the Herald, Odium shifted their Primary attribute to closer align with his shard and align less with Honors. This usually resulted in an almost inversion of the attribute. SPECIFICALLY I THINK ONLY THE PRIMARY ATTRIBUTE WAS BROKEN/TWISTED. Below I will show what I think the attribute shifted to after the Devine attribute. Herald. Primary Divine Attribute. Secondary Divine Attribute. Jezrien. Protecting. (Submission) Leading Nale. Just. (Arbitrary)(Judgement) Confident Chanarach. Brave. Obedient Vedel. Loving. Healing Paliah. Learned. Giving Shalash. Creative. (Destructive) Honest Battar. Wise. Careful Kalak. Resolute. (Weak-willed) Builder Talenel. Dependable. (Erratic) Resourceful Ishar. Pious. (Traitorous) Guiding These are based off of what we have seen or heard in the books so far. These are not perfect words, but the 17th shard manymind will probably come up with better. There are some subtle indications that only 9 of the 10 fool's have a strong history or mythology. Here is one concerning Lyft and pancakes. I think I subconsciously connected Lyft's silly quest to eat all 10 Pancakes with the 10 fool's. Research could not find a direct correlation. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jezrien gives up on protecting humanity personally, submits to the Will of the group, and sacrifices Talenel to uphold the entire oathpact. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Nale shifts from Just- working within the accepted standards of right and wrong to Arbitrary- following the rule of law without regards to morality.....he goes straight lawful evil. From Edgedancer Chapter 9, page 596 Arcanum Unbound, location 8565 Judgement not Justice. From Edgedancer Chapter 9, page 596 Arcanum Unbound, location 8565 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Shalash is pretty clear with her running around destroying art, and significantly art that depicts her and other heralds. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Kalak is in no way resolute when Jezrien meets him. He is in fact very weak willed, confessing that he cannot go back. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Talenel (if it really is him) comes back a broken man, highly erratic and unable to perform his duties as the Herald of War. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ishar formed the Knights Radiant originally, he led the Bondsmiths. He was also the one who promulgated the traitorous idea that 1 Herald could support the Oathpact. From Edgedancer: And And ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 5) We know there were not literally 99 desolation. I suspect there were 9. One each time Odium broke a Herald. Then the next time that Herald would not be tortured as hard so that about her would break first. Nine also being the number of Odium I believe would work well with this. After the Oathpact was discarded, Odium let humanity rewrite Roshar's history and religion in preparation for the Final Desolation. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 6) The corruption of the 9 Heralds weakened Honor, but the Knights Radiant provided some support, until the Day of Requience when they abandoned all their oaths. Honor shattered shortly after. I have to go back and find some more quotes and WOB to fully support some of this, but I will edit them in as I find them.
  21. So I just had a thought when looking into both Mistborn and Stormlight Archive. It appears that the raw power of shards is unable to enter buildings for some reason. I'm not sure if it's been discussed before but i'm sure people have noticed how in Mistborn the physical representation of Preservations power, in the form of the Mists, cannot enter buildings and evaporates at the entrance. A similar aspect to this can be seen in the Stormlight archive with, as far as we can tell, the physical representation of Honors power, Stormlight, cannot enter into things perceived as buildings. We see examples of Stormlight passing through Flesh to infuse gems in the form of Kaladins hand when he is left to die in a Highstorm and also in the fact that they are left in lanterns out in a Highstorm to become infused. It also seems weird how Stormlight can pass through the glass to get into a gem inside a Sphere anyways. But from these examples, does it seem to indicate that a shards power can't permeate buildings? And to be clear, i'm not saying that powers granted by a shards investiture cant be used in buildings, as there is much evidence that it can and is used inside a lot in both Mistborn and SA, but what sort of meaning does the possibility that a shards essence cannot permeate buildings?
  22. Hey Sharders! Long time lurker, but first time poster! Hopefully im not regurgitating a theory posted elsewhere, and apologies if this theory expands a bit beyond the confines of roshar, it's about an entity on roshar but by necessity has to expand a bit further! Let me know if i should move this to cosmere theories! but i have some ideas about the origin of the Nightwatcher. It starts with our current understanding of the nature of spren capable of nahel bonds. From what I understand, these spren are small pieces of honor, and cultivation to varying degrees depending on the variety. And have been referred to as splinters of honor or cultivation. These splinters are bits of investiture left without will or a host long enough that it gains sentience. (There has been confirmation in a WoB that spren are splinters similar to the way seons are on sel) I've come accross a number of theories proposing that the nightwatcher is of cultivation, possibly a kind of cognitive shadow similar to the stormfather. This doesnt hold up in my opinion, there is a WoB that i dont know how to link which tells us that cultivations holder is still alive, and from what we know of the old magic, it doesnt seem to fit into the types of investiture made possible by honor and cultivation. (nor the possible iterations of voidbinding that we'll see more of soon) I propose that the nightwatcher is actually a splinter of adonalsium from pre-shattering. There were already other spren on Roshar before any of the shards came there. I think it's possible that this is a magic system that predates all other kinds on roshar, and was put into place before any shards were taken up. The concept of a boon and a curse doesnt feel at all like the symbiosis present in all of the magic from honor, cultivation, or even odium. Thoughts?
  23. Scadrial shows us class warfare. Sel shows us religious warfare. I think Roshar shows us race warfare. I read the Stormfather’s statement as one of racial superiority and arrogance towards the listeners. The Stormfather believes only “beasts” bond with “subspren,” presumably pre-Shattering sentient spren. Oaths are not involved in such bonds. The Stormfather claims non-oath bonds don’t require “intelligence, free will, and choice.” While his statement also refers to greatshells, skyeels and other native lifeforms that bond spren, I believe listeners are his target, since the Stormfather lumps all “beasts and subspren” together. He sneers at non-sapient spren and the “beasts” they bond with. Maybe Honor imparted a sense of racial superiority to the Stormfather through his cognitive shadow. Maybe humans personified the Stormfather to embody this attitude. But I think Odium “corrupted” the Stormfather. This is a “hateful” attitude. I believe Odium somehow inserted his Investiture into the Stormfather to effect subtle changes in his makeup. There’s only scant evidence for this. Syl calls the Stormfather “broken,” although that can mean many things. We have examples of voidspren “corrupting” other spren. Brandon says, “many of these spren have that kind of ‘hole’ in them, and that’s what allows Odium to take control of them.” I agree with @zandi that the “Fleet” chapter (WoR, Chapter 59) foreshadows the SLA ending. This also provides some evidence of Odium’s corruption of the Stormfather. I think Kaladin’s race with the “storm” (never identified as a highstorm) is the true duel between Honor’s and Odium’s champion. (I think Dalinar’s belief he’s seen “Odium’s champion” may be wrong.) Kaladin races the storm into Shinovar, where it loses its Investiture (including Odium’s), and becomes "normal" again. I don’t know why Kaladin would have raced the storm to his death and resurrection (assuming this is the ending foreshadowed) unless the race ensured Roshar’s survival. My main point, though, is that the Stormfather expresses an attitude that leads to division and hatred. He expresses Odium’s attitude, not Honor’s. It is the attitude that leads to racial warfare and genocide, as we see on Roshar.
  24. It says- vex odium convince him he can lose, he cannot afford to lose again. Unite them. Appoint a champion (to fight odium) how can a human fight a god. So unite them isn't the high princes or the kingdoms of roshar. It is the spren (who are splinters of honor). Unite them, put them back together. This champion will hold the shard honor. And Brandon hinted that odium took up the powers of another shard. And then he shattered honor. So this extra shard is giving odium a lot more power. After every desolation some of this power was lost. So if odium loses again he will have less power than cultivation.