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  1. They are classified as hemalurgic constructs on the coppermind, but I am unclear on if that rules out them also being cognitive shadows. There is a WoB where he says Kandra are not cognitive shadows because they didn't die they merely changed. Two railroad-sized spikes through the brain doesn't seem survivable. Do their spikes simultaneously kill them and "staple" their soul, or an investiture fossil of their soul, to their body? https://coppermind.net/wiki/Hemalurgy#Hemalurgic_Constructs https://wob.coppermind.net/events/331/#e9405
  2. As I understand it, the reason souls don't stick around after death for so long is due to a lack of viable Connections to the Realms. This can be negated as you could Invest yourself enough to give yourself some viable Connection (I think that's why the Investiture trick works anyway). Does this mean that a Connector Ferring could tap enough Connection to an ally who died near them to act as a functional anchor to the Physical Realm, letting the deceased person's spirit persist longer than normal in the CR, perhaps even letting them endure as long as the Connection can be sustained (i.e., theoretically an indefinite length of time)? Also, would all that Connection allow the deceased person to speak and interact with the living person? Yumi spoilers; You'd probably need Compounding to make any of this work though, as I imagine you'd need a strong Connection.
  3. The nightmares are, presumably, spirits of the dead tied to the cognitive and physical realm. But what are they tied with? We know from the scholars and hoid that the machine harvested the spirits of the dead before summoning any spirits. Usually you need a splinter to make a cognitive shadow but the machine didn’t have any splinters at first so how did it sustain the dead’s spirits?
  4. Are Elantrians cognitive shadows? Or are they just people supercharged with investiture? In that case, do they have enough investiture to become cognitive shadows if they are killed? I’ve read all the cosmere books but elantris was one of the first so it’s been a while haha
  5. I wonder, are elantrians cognitive shadows like returned or Heralds?
  6. If part of the Stormfather has absorbed Honor’s Cognitive Shadow, I have questions about this. Does that mean that as Dalinar swears more ideals, the Stormfather will gain more of Honor’s memories and Persona, the way Syl has regained more of herself based on her relationship to Kaladin?
  7. Could a Fused possess a deceased body if it were repaired via the Surge of Regrowth? Also, as a side question, could a Fused Possess a human vessel if the human and Fused were both willing?
  8. If someone were to go to a shardpool and die while inside it, would they become a cognitive shadow? Would they need to have a Connection to the Investiture inside, or would simply being there be enough?
  9. Hello all I am back with another question related to bonding cognitive shadows. This one is different though, because I was just interested, does anyone have any cognitive shadows you think would have very interesting consequences if bonded? For example if someone were to bond Kelsier, who would you want it to be? On that note, who would you reaaallllly not want it to be?
  10. When a being uses investiture, they change themselves in such a way that when they die they can persist a bit longer before they move on. So, if someone frequently used bursts of Allomantic Duralumin power, would this cause a bigger enhancement, and therefore change in their soul, to allow themselves to last longer than someone who only burned their metals normally?
  11. Can a cogniitve shadow bond spren the way humans can? Would it look slightly different or be the same or just not possible at all. Also, since we know you could technically bond Kelsier.... could a cognitive shadow bond a cognitive shadow?
  12. All people have a Cognitive Aspect which is formed of Investiture (as technically everything is). Upon death this Aspect begins to dissipate, just as the body begins to decay. An infusion of Investiture to the body will heal it and an infusion of Investiture to the Cognitive Aspect will maintain it. Living people are effected by other people’s perceptions. The effect is simply minimized for unknown reasons. In contrast, the Cognitive Aspects of objects and non-sapient creatures do not have whatever safe guard minimizes this effect on living sapients and are strongly effected by perceptions. Shadows seem to fall into an in between area. They’re less effected by perception than non-sapients, but they’re more effected than living sapients. Whatever safeguards living sapients appears to be damaged, though a strong enough infusion of Investiture or exposure to the Spiritual Realm may help. What’s even more interesting is that there’s some indication that the whole problem is tied to memory and the limits of human capacity for it. It’s possible memory is the safeguard. There are some indications that an ordinary living sapient who lives too long will begin to have the same issue as a Shadow. And others that indicate natural immortals may avoid the issue. It’s also worth noting that Vessels seem to have a similar problem and some take advantage by trying to shape perceptions of themselves in particular manners. (Note that most Vessels are alive.) To me this indicates that the problem is less of perception and more a matter of Spiritual Connection. If the body is the physical function, and the Cognitive is the consciousness, it seems like the Spiritual is the totality of our lives experiences: the web of memories and connections we form throughout our lives that define who we are. It seems to me that as the Cognitive Aspect reaches its natural threshold for recall, it begins to lose its ability to access portions of that web, almost like a magical version of Alzheimer’s disease. It’s as though the Connection between Consciousness and Experience begins to fray, leading to the weakening of the Self. I’m going to call this the recall threshold: the point past where a Cognitive Aspect can access the sum totality of its Spirit Web. If something happens to expand the Cognitive Aspect’s ability to ‘recall’ or if something stimulates this, the Cognitive Aspect will ‘remember’ itself. In the absence of a whole link to the Spiritweb, I think perception takes its place. That’s a type of Connection too, but it’s one formed by the collective experiences and memories of other people. If you don’t know who you are, then you have to take it from other people. Imagine someone with amnesia, being told ‘You are X. You work as a Y. This is your family.’ etc. and determining who you are based on that. Except on a much broader and unconscious scale. In this hypothesis, as the ties from the Cognitive Aspect to the Spiritweb fray, the collective Consciousness, the perceptions and Connections of and with other people, act to shore up the fraying supports. Over time, as the ties between Realms continue to weaken, this collective consciousness becomes a pseudo-Spiritweb shaping the way the Cognitive Aspect defines itself while still allowing that self to maintain some definition. This has little to do with whether it’s the original person, or soul, or not. It’s not a problem of perception - indeed, perception would actually be acting as a symptom reducer - but a problem of Connection between Realms. The problem that Shadows face would simply be a result of those ties being damaged by having died. Just as a person loses their Connection to the Physical, they also lose their Connection to the Spiritual upon death. When a Shadow has their Cognitive Aspect stabilized, it stops the severing process and may even reverse some of the damage. But it seems reasonable that these Connections between Realms are no longer whole. The Connection to the Physical, for example, needs to be intentionally restored. If the tie to the Spiritual remains damaged, then it would be more vulnerable to breakdown than that of a living sapient. So while both living and Shadow will experience the recall threshold problem, a Shadow will experience the effects much sooner. This effect would apply to all Shadows over time. In fact, it would apply to all non-natural immortals. Even natural immortals could, in theory, eventually hit their (presumably much higher) recall threshold and experience the effects of the loss of Spiritual Connection. In conclusion, whether or not a Shadow is the original person’s consciousness/soul is immaterial and remains a philosophical problem (as per WoB). The problem is one of Realmatic Connection that would ultimately effect all sapients, with the closest Physical Realm equivalent being something like Alzheimer’s or other disorders of memory. The fact that increasing the recall threshold or decreasing the distance between Realms can heal this damage would be indicative of this problem not being tied to original personhood of a Shadow, but to a greater Realmatic effect to which Shadows are simply more susceptible due to their weakened ties to the Realms.
  13. Most cognitive shadows require some intake of investiture to sustain themselves, while others don’t. In the RoW headings written by the hearalds, it says that the heralds needed the bond of the Oathpact to stay alive, and so when Jezrien was captured with a raysium dagger, it also cut him off from the Oathpact, eventually causing him to die. Would Kelsier, being a Sliver, die if he were to be captured in a gemstone, or would he remain “alive”?
  14. Spoilers All Cosmere This is just some crazy tinfoil idea that I had. I've long had a pet theory that Kelsier was connected to another Shard. He has such commitment to his ideals that it speaks of great Intent. He comes off as cocky and self-interested but his willingness to sacrifice himself - and pursue his ideals even thereafter! - shows the depth of his devotion. I used to think that, if he was influenced by a shard, it was probably Bavadin. Her penchant for Investing herself into Avatars is well known. Kelsier's anti-authoritarianism seems pretty Autonomous. And Kel's immidiate antipathy towards Hoid seems rather as if he "has been instilled with an intense and overpowering dislike of" our favorite flautist. This seems a little hard to square with his becoming a ruler (the Sovereign) on Scadrial, and a leader (Thaidakar) to the Ghostbloods. But it's possible. Perhaps there is no greater autonomy than sovereignty. Kelsier created the Bands of Mourning, an artifact so powerful as to grant its user quite a bit of "freedom and self-direction." But of all the questions about the Bands of Mourning, one gets a little lost: Why are they so named? I don't believe that the eponymous book gives an answer. But another text may: Shadows For Silence In The Forest Of Hell. Shadows for Silence is set on the planet Threnody, namesake of the Threnodite system. The other planets in that system include Monody and Elegy. A threnody is "a wailing lament composed or performed as a memorial to a dead person." Both a monody and an elegy are "poems lamenting a person's death." All three of these are examples of mourning. There's no Shard in the Threnodite system now. We know that several Shards were once there - Odium, Ambition, and Mercy. A "wail for the dead" doesn't speak much of Ambition, and though it is Passionate it doesn't really feel like "God's own hatred." Mercy? "Compassion or forgiveness shown toward someone whom it is within one's power to punish or harm." That doesn't sound much like a death-song - and it sounds nothing like Kelsier. In the Threnodite system, then, one of two things seems likely. The first possibility is that the planets are named for some other Shard. Perhaps this is one of the two we haven't encountered - maybe it is the Shard of Grief? Maybe Memory? The second possibility is that this system was created, or at least deeply touched, by all three of the shards which once resided there: Odium, Ambition, and Mercy. What do you get when you mix striving, passion, and forgiveness? I think that you would get the creation, of a song, of mourning. Perhaps Kelsier is touched by something from these worlds. Kelek's Breath but there are enough Cognitive Shadows running around Threnody! And we know that the Selish Ire have set up pickets around Scadrial's subastral specifically to prevent Threnodite Shades from coming through via Shadesmar. And we know that Kelsier had a deeply transformative experience when he was enslaved in the Pits of Hathsin - the Lord Ruler's prison, the source of all atium, but also a Perpendiculatiry. Maybe a Shade got through the Ire's picket and touched Kelsier. Maybe it was more than one of the apparently simple-minded Shades we see in Shadows for Silence. Perhaps all of the Shades of Threnody contain portions of the three Shards we know were present there. Maybe they contain an especially large portion of Ambition, since Uli Da was the one so wounded there. One part hatred, three parts self-striving, and one part "a desire to relieve suffering." ...that sounds a lot like Kelsier to me.
  15. I was thinking about the spiritual metals in Feruchemy and about cognitive shadows. I did a quick search and didn't find anyone else making this connection, so hopefully this has some merit. One of the reasons that some in-world philosophers consider the cognitive shadows as the same person as the recently deceased is probably the fact that at least some of them retain their memories or personality. This seems to be more evident with the Fused who, varying degrees of madness not withstanding, appear to have the same personality across their many "rebirths". In Feruchemy, aluminum allows a trueself to store their identity. Meanwhile, copper allows an archivist to store their memories. Some real-world philosophies believe our identities are nothing more than the sum of our perceptions, which include our memories. That is, that there is no underlying sense of self that will be the owner of our various ideas, memories and impressions. The existence of "Identity" suggests that this isn't the case in the Cosmere, and that there is a sense of self and "Me" that doesn't quite depend entirely on your experiences. If we consider that Identity is what makes you you, then a cognitive shadow will only be the original person if they keep their Identity. Depending on the differences between blanking your Identity and storing all of your memories on a coppermind, this could mean that you can keep your Identity and parts of your personality even if you lose all your memories or that you can keep some aspects of your personality even if you lose your Identity. While knowledge of the difference between storing Identity and storing all of your memories won't allow in-world philosophers to reach any conclusions regarding whether cognitive shadows are the original or a copy, it might give them further (and perhaps better) proof to support their own opinions. For example, if storing all your memories doesn't make your entire personality disappear and allows you to keep some skills, it could be used as another proof that the Returned are the original people. Or if blanking Identity doesn't affect memories or connections, it could be used as a proof that at least some cognitive shadows are simple copies and not the originals. I know that it doesn't really answer the question about them, but I hope this might add a little to the discussion surrounding cognitive shadows, both in-world and in the real one. What do you think? Could this be of some help to the professors at Silverlight? And how could connection work into this? That's all I can think of for now. I look forward to what ideas you may have.
  16. So a while back I made a list of the things I would love to see happen in the Cosmere, one of them was this: Humans being the equivalent of spren: I want to see a Shardworld where a Bond with a human grants the non-human (preferably a Cognitive Entity) access to an Investiture system Basically, a reverse of the trope of humans being granted magic by a magical entity, with the humans themselves granting magic to other entities A while before that, I'd also made a topic speculating on how Bonds between human beings could be possible in the Cosmere I don't know if we'll ever get to see exactly those, but now that I think about it, a workaround may be possible to have something similar, via Cognitive Shadows The idea seeded from this WoB: Stormlight Archives & Mistborn might provide some evidence for the possibility of such a thing occurring. Spren, which are Cognitive Entities, seem to require some Connection to the Physical, both via the ideas that they represent being channelled by beings in the Physical Realm and via the Nahel Bond for higher cognitive functioning if they want to enter the Physical Realm itself. It's the same case for Kelsier according to Preservation, he lacked a Connection to the Physical. Could this Connection take the form of a Bond? Other examples from the Cosmere which could possibly support this can be found in on the world of Threnody with the Shades. Silence's grandmother's Shade was possibly more self-aware as it is stated that she didn't ever try to attack Silence, there were also some interesting rumors regarding her waystop being protected by the Shade of her dead husband, possibly actually referring to her grandmother's Shade. So, am I cuckoo or is this idea feasible? Are there better ways? Can you Bond Cognitive Shadows and can doing so grant you access to the Investiture system that person had access to when they were alive? Also, could a stronger Connection to the Physical by this method possibly help a Cognitive Shadow escape the inexorable pull of the Beyond? The topics I mentioned: https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/88470-things-i-want-to-see-in-the-cosmere/ https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/87727-human-bonds/
  17. So, do cognitive shadows persist on roshar when someone is able is unable to forgive themselves? Both Dalinar and Kaladin heard the voices of their loved ones outside of visions when they forgave themselves and Teft had that moment when he just knew he was forgiven. Additionally ghosts are mentioned more in the the stormlight archive more than any other series, with talk of shades wandering in the the storms, and at one point Lirin even joking that he knew his father in law wasn't dead because if he was he'd be haunting him. If anyone has more evidence it would be appriciated.
  18. After reading chapter 15 today, we learned that Vasher believes type 2 invested entities are a cognitive copy of the person's soul. It seems like the Fused and the Heralds are going insane due to Generation Loss, a cognitive copy is made from the copy, resulting in deterioration of the "soul" over time. Every time that a Herald or Fused dies, rather than being transported to Braize, their cognitive shadow is copied, discarded / dies, and the copy is placed on Braize. This would mean that the Fused, because they can come back immediately in every everstorm, would be experiencing an accelerated decline into insanity.
  19. Aaaallllll righty, bear with me for a second while I spin this little theory out into words on the screen. The gist of it is that I recalled that Cognitive Shadows can bond to Spiritwebs, like a Spren. Then it occurred to me that Awakening (if i'm not mistaken) creates a "Fake" or artificial Spiritweb, right? So... If someone dies, and there's someone with enough Breath around, could they use the right Command on the corpse to make it suitably controllable by the Cognitive Shadow of the original inhabitant? Like a Nalthian version of a [Stormlight spoiler] Basically, can you Awaken someone's recently deceased body to become a useable vessel for their cognitive shadow such that they are effectively resurrected?
  20. I was wondering about this on my most recent read-through of Warbreaker & SA, because in Mistborn Era 2 we've seen that combining Feruchemy and Allomancy produces some really neat things; I wonder if we have received any confirmation about how other magic systems might interact. Also Hoid is living out his inner Ash Ketchum with Shardic powers so it's going to come up in the future. So yeah, Awakening and Surgebinding. Returned are, according to the coppermind wiki, Cognitive Shadows, however, as shown by Nale becoming a full Skybreaker, that doesn't exactly stop the Nahel bond from forming. Which raises a question: can a Returned become a Surgebinder? If they were to do so, would the different forms of Investiture combine, to allow them to go out into a highstorm with some bright clothes and start mass-Awakening big things? On the other side of things, if one were to create coloured illusions via Lightweaving, could this be used as a source of colour for Awakening? Speaking of Returned, could Type IV BioChromatic Entities become Surgebinders (imagine Nightblood the Windrunner, with its spren taking on the form of a person wielding the sword...)? Going the other way, could a Surgebinder Return? How would that affect the Nahel bond? Would their death cause it to break, and then they would have to spend time reforming it and reswearing the Ideals? Would the newly-Returned even remember their spren? Assuming that it can happen, we're presented with a number of interesting implications. If we fast forward to the more interconnected Cosmere which is coming in later Mistborn eras, it would be really cool to see artists try to desperately acquire a large number of Breaths and a Cryptic or Truthwatcher spren in order to become a better artist. Returned have a headstart by being propelled up into the 5th Heightening straight away, with all of the cool art appreciation features that come with that; a Returned with access to Lightweaving could conceivably create illusion-based 3D artwork with all of the depth and complexity that only another massively Invested Nalthian (or perhaps a Tin savant / relevant Feruchemist?) could appreciate. Add in SoulForging and you've got a seriously upmarket art installation. On the topic of SoulForging, if you spent time on Nalthis and Roshar, could a Forger rewrite your spiritweb to make it so that you became a Surgebinder or Returned? Or an Allomancer/Feruchemist based on a life spent on Scadrial? How would that work?
  21. So, in my re-reading of Arcanum Unbounded I came to one of my favourite shorts, Mistborn: Secret History. At the portion where Kelsier meets with Khriss and Nazh I couldn't help but notice something Nazh said that I hadn't picked up on before. This caught me and I started thinking, is it possible for one to ritualistically become a shade using whatever magic may be present on Threnody? Generally shades come about due to some weirdness in Threnody's investiture (maybe cos of large chunks of Ambition being ripped off in this system) but if one were to purposely create a shade, would it be a more powerful kind or simply like all other shades. One possibility that came to mind could be that this is how the one-time mentioned Deepest Ones come to be. What do you all think? Is there some other info floating around out there about Threnodite shades and The Deepest Ones, could someone like Kelsier be analogous to The Deepest Ones? This is my first theory so apologies if this has been spoken about before, I look forward to hearing all your opinions on the subject, Threnody is super mysterious and so much fun to think about.
  22. First off acknowledgement to @hwilesfor planting this idea in my head months ago. During a discussion about Kelsier earlier today on discord with @Spoolofwhool and @Blightsong, I mentioned an idea I picked up from Hwiles about how Kelsier regained a body. There's been numerous discussions on this, all most revolving around spiking Kelsier's Cognitive Aspect to a random body/Kandra and him taking over. I believe something different, and Spool and Blight helped flesh it out some. First, we need to look at the last half of this WoB from Boskone. So, when a worldhopper is physically in the Cognitive Realm, they do not in fact have a body. They are comprised wholely of investiture, but retain their connection to the Physical realm. That connection is the only difference between a worldhopper in the Cognitive Realm, and a Cognitive Shadow like Kelsier. So what if, instead of a spike into a body, which couldn't house the entirety of Kelsier's Cognitive aspect, the spike only contains someone's connection to the Physical Realm? From this WoB, we know that hemalurgy is possible in the Cognitive. (thanks @Overstorm) so a spike can be taken into the Cognitive Realm and used. If a spike were to steal the physical connection of a person, and then placed into Kel, he would then be composed of investiture in the Cognitive Realm and have a connection to the Physical Realm, just like every worldhopper. At this point, all he needs to do is go to a perpendicularity, and transition into the Physical Realm, the same as we've seen worldhoppers do before. When he steps through, his body should form from background investiture, or whatever mechanism works for your average worldhopper. Kelsier's body may not be his original, but it's 100% his own.
  23. According to the Stormfather in Oathbringer, even before the Fused got Surges, they were unbeatable because they just kept reincarnating, which necessitated the whole Oathpact thing - the Heralds had to go to Braize forever (which unfortunately turned into being tortured) to lock away the Fused, since they just couldn't kill them. But the Fused are Cognitive Shadows, and we've seen plenty of Cognitive Shadows killed on other planets (Warbreaker/Arcanum Unbounded spoilers). And we know that Nightblood "destroys on all three Realms", and there's a WOB that a Shardblade could kill a spren. With the amount of power Honor could give the Heralds, why wasn't there a way to kill the Fused? Hmmm... actually... is Nightblood the first thing Roshar's seen that actually can permanently kill them? Szeth might be even more important than we thought...
  24. My question really all comes down to what would happen if a being like Kelsier, circa era 2, was stabbed by Vyre's knife? Would the same thing happen that happened to Jezrien? I think the heralds are preserved by Honor's investiture and they seem to have the perk of automatic incarnation after death, and Kelsier, preserved by Preservation had to get himself a body somehow to return to the Physical Realm, but like, would that knife kill him for good, or would it have no effect since he, you know, doesn't reincarnate anyway, but is just preserved as a cognitive shadow? I couldn't find any WOB directly relating to this.
  25. I have been re-reading Alloy of Law over my holiday break. When I came across a specific quote that made me pause and formulate an interesting theory about Trell. Due to spoilers the rest of this post will be in a spoiler box. Read at your own discretion. Particularly if you haven't read Secret History.
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