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Found 3 results

  1. I don't know if I am just very late into Mistborn characters' morality discussions or if these things were really just sadly overlooked. While Stormlight characters have multiple topics analyzing them, I've found very few doing the same for Mistborn characters, with Kelsier being the one notable exception. There have been previous topics discussing Kelsier in this context such as: https://www.reddit.com/r/Mistborn/comments/7t5rdz/tfe_i_was_disappointed_in_the_ending/ My thoughts regarding the same, well, I think that the stakes as well as the context for his hatred made his actions quite understandable: the Nobles were gits, who practiced extortion, slavery, rape and mass executions. Kelsier intended to die and with his plans with the Kandra, to inspire the Skaa via the one element that Sazed recounted lasted the longest against the Lord Ruler: religion. He did have a very high opinion of himself and wanted to leave quite the legacy behind by becoming a god, he ultimately had no concrete plans for dealing with the Lord Ruler or the Inquisitors, and what he did could be seen as a form of escapism. Does this make him a bad person? I was talking with @Michael Marssen regarding the morality of characters from Stormlight and Mistborn, about Shallan & Dalinar, and the big four of the original Mistborn trilogy: Vin, Elend, Kelsier, Sazed. I will quote my thoughts on Kel, Vin and Elend from this conversation for expediency's sake ~Stormlight, Oathbringer spoiler~ But there has already been enough discussion on this character. So, I won't rehash those and instead move on two other characters who I believe should also be discussed within the same frame: the main couple, Vin & Elend Vin Vin notes herself to be a creature of instinct and in WoA muses that she isn't a judge but an executioner... or something along those lines, I forget the exact quote. The highlight here is her wholesale slaughter of the Cett soldiers while sparing only Ashweather Cett himself, intending to also kill his son Gneorndin for trying to defend his father. Elend I really feel iffy about the two executions that Elend committed: of his former friend Jastes Lekal and the Skaa soldier, Bilg. For those who've forgotten, Jastes Lekal was a fellow idealist and compatriot of Elend Venture and Telden Hasting. They often met at balls and discussed politics. After the collapse of the Final Empire, Jastes fled Luthadel to his home Dominance where he tried to implement several of Elend's ideas in governing his lands, such as freedom and political honesty, which was seen as a sign of weakness and led to his family members were culled off by the new rulers when they took control. He became unhinged and recruited an army of Koloss by paying them with fake coins to beseige Luthadel. He was caught by Elend trying to flee in the aftermath and summarily had his head lopped off. Bilg was a Skaa who was sceptical about the chances of a successful skaa rebellion. He just wanted to live. He saw through Kelsier's charisma & realized they were being led to suicide. Kelsier used him & Demoux to turn the tide of opinion by having the two duke it out by Rioting Bilg's emotions and supporting Demoux with steelpushes and ironpulls. Kelsier intended to kill him but Demoux resisted. In WoA, he gets involved in a scuffle between the Mistfallen and the other soldiers, started by Midge (actually accidentally started by Kelsier, as seen in Mistborn: Secret History) who claimed that the Mistborn were holy and chosen by the Survivor. Their general, Demoux had to interfere, punched his general in the face right when Elend joined the scene. According to the law instituted by Elend, he had to execute Bilg, even though Demoux pleaded to only throw the man in solitary. Another point of contention for me, as I mentioned, was Elend became a military dictator. Again, as I said, I understand the stakes and I do love him for his selflessness and willingness to die for his beliefs, which he displayed twice, but he also basically went democracy is for later, now we fight. And he inspired others to fight and die... um, a quality that is praised in real life too, especially in soldiers but it's one of the heroic qualities I'm most uncomfortable with. So, what did you guys feel about the original Mistborn trilogy characters?
  2. Hey everyone! After some much needed distance from the books and world of Roshar, I am diving back in from the very beginning and reading through to the end of Oathbringer. Unlike the 7 or 8 times I’ve read the first two books, where I did so for the pure pleasure of it, this time I am rereading with a specific purpose in mind: an in-depth analysis of one of the most confusing and unreliable characters in Stormlight, also known as Shallan Davar. Before I get started, I want to thank those of you who have welcomed me onto the Shard and liked my posts up until now. I have really come to enjoy the Shard, and it's nice to talk about the Cosmere with those who care about it as much as, or more, than I do. Special thanks go to @SLNC, who frequently is able to phrase things I am trying to say in a more concise and direct way, especially when my posts are nearly half a page (on here) long. I'd also like to thank @Fifth of Daybreak, who helped me immensely in developing my "forum voice" and was willing to carry on a rather lengthy debate and call me out when I was getting too heated, without ever making me feel like my thoughts were insignificant. @maxal has also frequently been a rational and contrary voice that explains the opposite side of the fence from me in coherent and well-thought out replies, which is crucial in any effective discussion. Let me preface this analysis by saying that this is a project I have wanted to tackle for a long time. Originally, I intended to do this as a set-up for Oathbringer, but with the birth of my second daughter and complications after, I ran out of time. Then, I planned on doing this immediately after my first read-through of Oathbringer, but other things in life and my own mental state after reading the book forced it to be put on hold until I could be at a place where I could approach this from a more neutral ground. As a little bit of background, when I first read through The Way of Kings, I fell in love with the character of Shallan almost instantly. As an artist myself who has often lived on the side of the fence where I never seem to fit in, no matter how I changed myself or what I did, she resonated with me and spoke to me in a way that almost no other character in any fiction has ever done. Her sense of humor is right up my alley, and having been raised in a somewhat sheltered environment, I see a lot of myself in this character, and the more I read The Way of Kings and Words of Radiance, the more I grew fascinated with her story and how she came to be. Then I read Oathbringer, and her story was hard for me to read, but not because it was tedious or boring, but rather because in a small way, it mirrored something I went through in high school. I love the character--in fact, I believe I actually love her more now than before--but with the chaotic mess that was Shallan in Oathbringer, I believe this is now the right time for this analysis to occur. In some part, this analysis was inspired by @maxal, whose analysis of Adolin pre-Oathbringer was one of the motivating factors in my joining the Shard in the first place. I’ve also observed, as I’ve seen many people comment on the character, that a large majority of readers have a difficult time liking or understanding the character, and some skip her chapters entirely. As Shallan is by far my most favorite character in the entire Cosmere, my hope is that through this analysis I can bring some of what I find intriguing and fun about this character to everyone else. The inconsistency and unreliability of the narrator are only part of the fun. As I progress through this read-through, I will be making a bunch of notes privately, that will probably be completely incomprehensible to anyone else. If you really want to see them, ask and I will post them; however, I will revise those notes into a coherent document that will be updated as I read. During my analysis, I will focus on a few things about the character. Yes, there will be a little bit of analysis of the shipping involved (be warned), but I will strive my hardest to approach it from a neutral ground and point out the good and the bad, as I see it, on both sides. Other aspects of Shallan’s character that I will focus on and try to analyze and explain are: How her past (as it is mentioned in the text) has influenced the narrator we’re reading. Modern influences on the character of Shallan and how that affects the narrator we're reading. Mental jiggery-pokery, or in other words, her mental side-stepping habits, and the immediate and long-lasting ramifications of it. Contradictions in the narrator’s voice, and why those contradictions are occurring. Comparisons between Shallan and Kaladin, with respects to interests, mannerisms, interactions, and mental states Comparisons between Shallan and Adolin, with respects to interests, mannerisms, interactions, and mental states I should note that comparisons between Shallan and the two boys will occur primarily from Shallan's standing. My reasons for the view I have comes entirely from the standpoint of Shallan as a character, not from whether or not I think Kaladin is a better match or Adolin is. As I said, I will try hard to be impartial in my analysis here, and will try to stay away from my opinions on Kaladin or Adolin, generally. SIDE NOTE: I like both of them and I like both of them for her, and for different reasons. I just happen to think one is better than the other, but that is neither here nor there. Comparisons between Shallan and Wayne (from Mistborn Era 2) There are some similarities between what Wayne and Shallan do, and also some stark differences on how those actions affect their mental states. And I’m sure there are other topics that will come up as I read. If there’s something about the character that you feel I haven’t mentioned that you would like included in the analysis, please let me know and I will do my best to incorporate it. If you have thoughts on something I've written, tell me. Discussion is encouraged--I merely am hoping that this will help to make Shallan a more enjoyable character for everyone. One thing I do ask, however, is to stay away from flippant and antagonistic comments--to disagree with me is okay, and it doesn't matter to me if we never agree. On that note…here we go. Let's start The Way of Kings again. EDIT: At @Jofwu's suggestion, I'm including the text from the document below the chapters for ease of discussion (also for indexing, as @Vissy recommended), but I will also have a comprehensive document that keeps track of changes to Shallan over the course of the books. The big document: WayofKings Shallan Character Analysis.docx Chapter 3 - City of Bells: Chapter 5 - Heretic:
  3. @maxal and I started having a discussion on Adolin's fashion sense and what it could mean prior to the ASK thread closure, so I wanted to bring it into it's own thread in case anyone else wanted to join the discussion. Below is the most pertinent history on the topic: I don't like Adolin playing "dressing up" and I still think those scenes exist mostly because Brandon thought they were comical and he wanted to add some humor to otherwise grim part of the narrative, but I recently read someone (not myself) argue Adolin focusing so much on fashion, when everything else is going wrong, is mostly him holding on to familiar things. He goes in line with his second viewpoint chapter where the smell of the stables was something familiar he could hung up onto despite being very distressed over Sureblood. Wearing nice clothes, sewing himself clothes, these may have just been comical scenes written to relief the tension, but these may have also been subtle ways Adolin's character has used to regain a semblance of normality in a world he does not recognize. The party with the fancy suit, I think it was more Adolin remembering his teenage years, then anything else. When Adolin mentions of how someone's clothes speaks of its personality, Shallan asks him what happened to his fancy suit. Adolin responds he didn't fit him anymore... I always thought this was an odd response, but with the above explanation, it makes more sense. Adolin no longer is the fop he once was: he tried once last time and it wasn't him anymore. I think this other person may have put the finger onto something. I can understand the normalcy point, though I don't know if I agree with it (normal would have been a uniform for Adolin, as that is what he's been wearing for the past six years. Fancy clothes would be a novelty at this point.) Even if we take the normalcy point, that is along the same lines as Adolin's focus was elsewhere besides on the task at hand, on making himself comfortable, on feeling normal. A perfectly natural feeling, but also different than the other three who were pushing their personal boundaries in order to accomplish the task (Kal being a lighteyes, Shallan risking her life to feed beggars (a misguided attempt, but that was her intent), Elhokar actually being a leader (lol at that last one)). I like your point about that quote on "fit" a lot more. It's something I had forgotten about. I'll quote it below for reference: Putting aside the fact this is a really stupid question by Shallan (they had been oathgate-napped from a battle. Why would Adolin wear a party suit to a battle? That's like me being kidnapped from the gym and someone asking why I was in gym clothes instead of a party dress), as I actually think the fact the question was so moronic means it was definitely inserted so that Adolin could say his line using an alternate meaning of "fit." He's obviously not talking about physical fit (he didn't change size in the past day), but instead figurative fit. This aligns with Adolin's reflection on "feeling taller" when he puts back on the uniform prior to the battle. This shows great personal growth for Adolin IMO. The way I read it is that Adolin was able to indulge himself, for the first time in years, in the frivolous vanity of fancy clothes. He did so (much like a college student gorges themselves on bad food when they move out of their parent's house), and he realized he actually felt better, stronger in the uniform, and that frivolity didn't fit him anymore. Good, subtle character growth, so excellent point! Now, what is really interesting is that later on in Shadesmar (Ch. 101, Deadeye), there is an Adolin chapter which starts with Adolin sewing and having much thought over his Celebrant disguise clothes (and later critiquing everyone else's.) This is also the chapter where Adolin has conversations with both Ico and Azure about his concern with being king now that Elhokar is dead. I don't think this is a coincidence considering the above. Adolin had previously decided he didn't need fashion, as the utilitarian uniform suited him and made him feel better, yet the next time we see him fussing over fashion, he has a conversation (with Azure) that becomes one of the turning points in his decision to refuse to be king. So he's coming back to the frivolity of fashion at the same time he starts going down the path of abdicating his duty (or what his family would see as his duty), essentially turning away from the uniform and what it represents. I think this ties into the last part of the first book quote above - about not being worthy to wear the uniform due to his killing Sadeas. That is a huge factor in why he abdicates being king, and in fact his justification to his father, so it's as though Adolin is deciding he doesn't deserve to wear the uniform anymore, so in fact the frivolous clothes actually fit him better in the end due to his perceived lack of worthiness.
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