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When talking with harmony at the end of the book, Kelsier is revealed to be unable to use metallic arts as CS, and is desperately trying to regain his powers. But... In his conversation with the bilming ghostbloods through a seon, Kelsier says that he cannot move faster as he is over water, and thus his steelpushing is useless. So Either: Kelsier is lying to the ghostbloods, pretending to be a misting in order to command greater respect. Kelsier has a coinshot friend he piggy back rides like max, or kelsier can actually use A-Steel through as of yet unseen A-medallions. This would make sense as if he cant use medallions, why make the bands? (but this is somewhat contradicted by his one POV chapter, where he laments his inability to use A-Iron and A-steel, so the whole thing is rather confusing) In any case, the 1st is most likely, which adds a bit of edge to when marasi asks if the ghostbloods can rely on even him to never keep secrets.

Just checking, the Sovereign in Bands of Mourning is Kelsier correct? Thanks

Is Kelsier (from your point of view) the hero, the villain, or the anti-hero?

They both hate each other, and apparently, Kelsier is one of the only things that Hoid can physically hurt. So, will we eventually be able to see a real fight between these two, with crazy levels of Investiture, dirty tricks, minions on both sides, and secret weapons revealed? I'd pay good money to see that fight

I was scrolling through this random thing: https://www.17thshard.com/news/features/inktober-21-spotlight-r775/ And the picture for Invested I don't get. I just... am confused. I haven't read Era 2, and I think I'm missing something... could someone explain it to me?

I'm not saying Kaladin's a more interesting character. I'm saying, just as people, Kaladin is better than Kelsier. 1. Selfless... or not? Kaladin is far more selfless than Kelsier. In Rhythm of War, he gives up the possibility of peace to save his friend. He is very willing to give up his own well-being for others. But it seems like everything Kelsier does is to be THE AWESOMEST and to be seen as THE AWESOMEST. Which is a very different motivation. 2. Intentionally Starting Followings Kelsier made a kandra imitate him to intentionally start a cult/religion. All Kaladin had to do was be his awesome self-- and boom! Shash brands painted on foreheads galore! He wasn't even trying to start a cult. Which isn't the same thing, I know. But Bridge Four sorta worship him a little, which he did not intend. So Kelsier worked to make people worship him, where as Kaladin just did his thing and oops, he (kind of) started a cult. 3. Grudges Well, in the first couple books, Kaladin hates lighteyes. All. Of. Them. Well, in all of Kelsier's books, he. Hates. Nobles. He will kill nobles just for existing. And even when Kaladin was at the worst of hating lighteyes, he didn't indiscriminately murder them. And he slowly learns to get over his grudge. I see that most nobles were actually evil in Mistborn, whereas not as much so in Stormlight. But still, Kelsier takes his hate to a disturbing level. And he basically refuses to see that any nobles could be good. Whereas by Words of Radiance, Kaladin is willing to see that lighteyes(Shallan, Dalinar) can be good people. Even when Kelsier saves Elend's life, he does it because of Vin, not because he thinks Elend is a worthwhile person. Whereas Kaladin uses what he thinks are his last breaths to try and protect a lighteyes(in WoR). Honorary Mention: 4. The Ghostbloods??? Okay, this one is less supported and less reasoned out. <---(is that a thing people say?) But I don't know, the Ghostbloods seem pretty shady. And... yeah. Kelsier... is...(beware, weird Cosmerian spoilers follow...) Thaidakar! Leader of the Ghostbloods! And if that's not fishy, I don't know what is. Disclaimer: I have not read Mistborn Era 2.(haha almost spelled Era as Ear) But yeah! Feel free to argue discuss to your heart's content! I will see if anyone changes my mind...(do I know what that emoji means exactly...? not really. oh well.)

So, in the hope of elantris if I’m not mistaken they say the Aon for hope is Ati, which is the name of ruin, something that the Lord Ruler never got to kill , am I the first to point this coincidence out ? Please let me know if there is a discussion since I wanted to know Brandon’s take on it

To the tune of "Survivor" by Destiny's Child.... the Kesier edition! If you are like me, you probably need to play the actual song and think/say/sing the lyrics below to see how it fits (Warning, spoilers for all things Kelsier and Cosmere...Enjoy!) Let me know what you think or if you have any fun/cool edits! Also, anyone particularly gifted in the singing of songs and such that would want to turn this into something that can actually be listened to? haha

Could Kelsier/Thaidakar use Connection in some form (for example: medallions or whatever Ishar is doing in his experiments) to get off Scadrial? I would think the medallions could help Kelsier stay on another planet if he reached one (by Connecting his soul to that planet), but would there be a way to use one to get off Scadrial in the first place? Could you use a medallion to Connect your soul to the Cognitive Realm as a whole, allowing you to travel through it to different planets? Ishar's experiments are really weird and disturbing, but could a bondsmith or someone else with access to the surge of Connection pull Kelsier into the Physical Realm or to a different system? Create a body similarly to how Ishar created bodies for the spren he pulled into the physical (except one that doesn't kill the cognitive shadow/spren)? Just thoughts...

Hi all, I listened to the Medallions of South Scadrial podcast recently and had a few observations about the book that I haven't been able to find addressed, though it's possible it's in the forums and I just haven't found it from searching. In no particular order, here goes: First, kandra generally don't know how to access the metallic arts other than what they get from their blessings, with the exception of Paalm, right? Except, apparently MeLaan can use the weight medallions. Apparently this doesn't interfere with her blessings (at least in these numbers), so Southern tech can grant Feruchemy and presumably Allomancy to kandra without having to resort to a Trellium spike. That's pretty neat, and it's just glossed over in the concept that everyone can get these powers now, but I think that's a non-trivial point considering how effective Bleeder was at doing things. Second, the ettmetal Allomantic grenade was odd to me, also in what I consider a significant way. When Wax charged the grenade and threw it, this little cube would throw presumably much heavier guns and equipment aside in its path, not following the usual Newtonian physics we see in Pushes and Pulls in which I would have expected the cube to get deflected from the much heavier weapons sometimes held in soldier's hands. No one in the books comments on this being odd, but it confused me for quite some time. We've seen Steel pushes and Iron pulls work on most metals, even Atium quite readily, while having problems "sensing" heavily invested metals such as metalminds and the Bands of Mourning. I seem to recall Brandon saying that he wishes he had done Atium differently if he had known how the Cosmere was going to develop, and I wonder if Atium would have also been resistant to Pushing and Pulling. Moving on, my theory is that this wasn't an error on the part of the physics of the Allomantic grenade, but that Pushes and Pulls are not using only physical mass in their calculation but more an "Invested mass". A godmetal with a presumably higher Investiture density Pushing against the ordinary metal weapons could push with more strength perhaps. Third, an aspect of the medallions that I don't get. Why can multiple people store weight in the medallions? Does their Identity not matter in process of storing in the metal, or is this a weird aspect of the construction of the medallions? Alternately, is this just an aspect of Feruchemy that has never come up, that multiple people can store attributes in a metalmind, but they could only withdraw their own storage? It seems odd to me, where I can see withdrawing from an unkeyed mind would work just fine, but I'm not sure on storing in an unkeyed mind. Fourth, at the end, presumably Kelsier stores a memory in a copper medallion. So... whatever mechanism that they are doing with the medallions allows copper memory storage that other people can access (which revolutionizes information storage), or it means that Kelsier has gained at least a Copper Ferring's abilities right? Fifth, another thing that seems highly relevant: Wax and Marasi were able to use the Bands of Mourning. Either from the mechanics of creating them, some aspect of Identity and time that I don't know about, or whatever, for some reason the Bands of Mourning were not Keyed to Kelsier. If Kelsier wanted to make a weapon for himself to reclaim that happened to be a metalmind that he could use, why not make it keyed through Identity to himself? Unless it always a test and he actually meant for someone to find something that powerful on the doorstep to his temple.

Hi all, I listened to the Medallions of South Scadrial podcast recently and had a few observations about the book that I haven't been able to find addressed, though it's possible it's in the forums and I just haven't found it from searching. In no particular order, here goes: First, kandra generally don't know how to access the metallic arts other than what they get from their blessings, with the exception of Paalm, right? Except, apparently MeLaan can use the weight medallions. Apparently this doesn't interfere with her blessings (at least in these numbers), so Southern tech can grant Feruchemy and presumably Allomancy to kandra without having to resort to a Trellium spike. That's pretty neat, and it's just glossed over in the concept that everyone can get these powers now, but I think that's a non-trivial point considering how effective Bleeder was at doing things. Second, the ettmetal Allomantic grenade was odd to me, also in what I consider a significant way. When Wax charged the grenade and threw it, this little cube would throw presumably much heavier guns and equipment aside in its path, not following the usual Newtonian physics we see in Pushes and Pulls in which I would have expected the cube to get deflected from the much heavier weapons sometimes held in soldier's hands. No one in the books comments on this being odd, but it confused me for quite some time. We've seen Steel pushes and Iron pulls work on most metals, even Atium quite readily, while having problems "sensing" heavily invested metals such as metalminds and the Bands of Mourning. I seem to recall Brandon saying that he wishes he had done Atium differently if he had known how the Cosmere was going to develop, and I wonder if Atium would have also been resistant to Pushing and Pulling. Moving on, my theory is that this wasn't an error on the part of the physics of the Allomantic grenade, but that Pushes and Pulls are not using only physical mass in their calculation but more an "Invested mass". A godmetal with a presumably higher Investiture density Pushing against the ordinary metal weapons could push with more strength perhaps. Third, an aspect of the medallions that I don't get. Why can multiple people store weight in the medallions? Does their Identity not matter in process of storing in the metal, or is this a weird aspect of the construction of the medallions? Alternately, is this just an aspect of Feruchemy that has never come up, that multiple people can store attributes in a metalmind, but they could only withdraw their own storage? It seems odd to me, where I can see withdrawing from an unkeyed mind would work just fine, but I'm not sure on storing in an unkeyed mind. Fourth, at the end, presumably Kelsier stores a memory in a copper medallion. So... whatever mechanism that they are doing with the medallions allows copper memory storage that other people can access (which revolutionizes information storage), or it means that Kelsier has gained at least a Copper Ferring's abilities right? Fifth, another thing that seems highly relevant: Wax and Marasi were able to use the Bands of Mourning. Either from the mechanics of creating them, some aspect of Identity and time that I don't know about, or whatever, for some reason the Bands of Mourning were not Keyed to Kelsier. If Kelsier wanted to make a weapon for himself to reclaim that happened to be a metalmind that he could use, why not make it keyed through Identity to himself? Unless it always a test and he actually meant for someone to find something that powerful on the doorstep to his temple.

All people have a Cognitive Aspect which is formed of Investiture (as technically everything is). Upon death this Aspect begins to dissipate, just as the body begins to decay. An infusion of Investiture to the body will heal it and an infusion of Investiture to the Cognitive Aspect will maintain it. Living people are effected by other people’s perceptions. The effect is simply minimized for unknown reasons. In contrast, the Cognitive Aspects of objects and non-sapient creatures do not have whatever safe guard minimizes this effect on living sapients and are strongly effected by perceptions. Shadows seem to fall into an in between area. They’re less effected by perception than non-sapients, but they’re more effected than living sapients. Whatever safeguards living sapients appears to be damaged, though a strong enough infusion of Investiture or exposure to the Spiritual Realm may help. What’s even more interesting is that there’s some indication that the whole problem is tied to memory and the limits of human capacity for it. It’s possible memory is the safeguard. There are some indications that an ordinary living sapient who lives too long will begin to have the same issue as a Shadow. And others that indicate natural immortals may avoid the issue. It’s also worth noting that Vessels seem to have a similar problem and some take advantage by trying to shape perceptions of themselves in particular manners. (Note that most Vessels are alive.) To me this indicates that the problem is less of perception and more a matter of Spiritual Connection. If the body is the physical function, and the Cognitive is the consciousness, it seems like the Spiritual is the totality of our lives experiences: the web of memories and connections we form throughout our lives that define who we are. It seems to me that as the Cognitive Aspect reaches its natural threshold for recall, it begins to lose its ability to access portions of that web, almost like a magical version of Alzheimer’s disease. It’s as though the Connection between Consciousness and Experience begins to fray, leading to the weakening of the Self. I’m going to call this the recall threshold: the point past where a Cognitive Aspect can access the sum totality of its Spirit Web. If something happens to expand the Cognitive Aspect’s ability to ‘recall’ or if something stimulates this, the Cognitive Aspect will ‘remember’ itself. In the absence of a whole link to the Spiritweb, I think perception takes its place. That’s a type of Connection too, but it’s one formed by the collective experiences and memories of other people. If you don’t know who you are, then you have to take it from other people. Imagine someone with amnesia, being told ‘You are X. You work as a Y. This is your family.’ etc. and determining who you are based on that. Except on a much broader and unconscious scale. In this hypothesis, as the ties from the Cognitive Aspect to the Spiritweb fray, the collective Consciousness, the perceptions and Connections of and with other people, act to shore up the fraying supports. Over time, as the ties between Realms continue to weaken, this collective consciousness becomes a pseudo-Spiritweb shaping the way the Cognitive Aspect defines itself while still allowing that self to maintain some definition. This has little to do with whether it’s the original person, or soul, or not. It’s not a problem of perception - indeed, perception would actually be acting as a symptom reducer - but a problem of Connection between Realms. The problem that Shadows face would simply be a result of those ties being damaged by having died. Just as a person loses their Connection to the Physical, they also lose their Connection to the Spiritual upon death. When a Shadow has their Cognitive Aspect stabilized, it stops the severing process and may even reverse some of the damage. But it seems reasonable that these Connections between Realms are no longer whole. The Connection to the Physical, for example, needs to be intentionally restored. If the tie to the Spiritual remains damaged, then it would be more vulnerable to breakdown than that of a living sapient. So while both living and Shadow will experience the recall threshold problem, a Shadow will experience the effects much sooner. This effect would apply to all Shadows over time. In fact, it would apply to all non-natural immortals. Even natural immortals could, in theory, eventually hit their (presumably much higher) recall threshold and experience the effects of the loss of Spiritual Connection. In conclusion, whether or not a Shadow is the original person’s consciousness/soul is immaterial and remains a philosophical problem (as per WoB). The problem is one of Realmatic Connection that would ultimately effect all sapients, with the closest Physical Realm equivalent being something like Alzheimer’s or other disorders of memory. The fact that increasing the recall threshold or decreasing the distance between Realms can heal this damage would be indicative of this problem not being tied to original personhood of a Shadow, but to a greater Realmatic effect to which Shadows are simply more susceptible due to their weakened ties to the Realms.

I'm a little confused about how Kelsier can read the thoughts of people after his ascension. I thought shards didn't have that ability no matter what. I think I have misunderstood something, but there is another instance that seemed to confirm Shards could not read peoples minds in SA. "He could hear their thoughts like voices." "'Remember yourself' Marsh's thoughts whispered." <- this is what Kelsier hears. "The boy's thoughts drifted to Kelsier..." Also because I was thinking about making a post just for this anyway: Fuzz needs more appreciation.

Most cognitive shadows require some intake of investiture to sustain themselves, while others don’t. In the RoW headings written by the hearalds, it says that the heralds needed the bond of the Oathpact to stay alive, and so when Jezrien was captured with a raysium dagger, it also cut him off from the Oathpact, eventually causing him to die. Would Kelsier, being a Sliver, die if he were to be captured in a gemstone, or would he remain “alive”?

In mistborn Secret History, Hoid pretty easily beats up Kelsier, but Kelsier didn't have access to his allomantic powers, and he didn't have the experience that he does now. Not only that, but Kelsier is almost certainly a fullborn now, as he created the Bands of Mourning. So if they faced off again, who would win?

Not really a new WOB, but not posted before (I forgot) Q: In Mistborn, was Kelsier the first person ever to kill a Steel Inquisitor? A: No

This was done for Fireflybooks21 on Tumblr. The other half of this will show up eventually. The song is “Come with me” by Chxrlotte. The song was chosen by Firefly.

This Theory is based on the fact that we know that Thaidakar in Kelsier, what we already know of the Ghostbloods intent and sorta the spiritweb. So the first point i would like to make is about what we already know of their intent as an organization. We already know that they want a convenient source of investiture. second, we know that Kelsier likes to help people. Third Wit made an interesting jab at Kel. He said something along the lines of take care of your planet before you meddle on others. Well what if that is what he is doing? What if the stormlight is meant to alter the spiritweb of a person enough to make them a full misborn or feruchemist. This can lead to other bigger implications but i won't get into those now. I would appreciate feedback positive and negative since it is my first theory.

Do we know how the timing lines up on Scadrial and Roshar? In TWOK Demoux is seen worldhopping on Roshar, meaning the non-flashback events we've seen on Roshar must occur after but within decades of the Final Ascension on Scadrial. In Mistborn Secret History, Kelsier only learns of worldhopping around the time of the Catacendre. He is widely theorized to be Thaidakar, but the Ghostbloods have presumably been operating for decades on Roshar. When did Kelsier establish the Ghostbloods? Also, Demoux followed Kelsier in life, later becoming one of the founders of and most dedicated adherent to Survivalism. What are the chances that he became a worldhopper but NOT a member of the Ghostbloods? I assume this has been discussed before, but I couldn't find anything written on it. Have I made some faulty assumptions? Thanks!

Hi All, I had a quick look but couldn't see a post on this topic so wanted to make one. Since my re-read of the Mistborn books, including Secret History, I started getting a sneaky suspicion that the Hero of Ages prophecy doesn't necessarily solely have to apply to Sazed - I then recently came across a post where someone had laid out all the Hero of Ages prophecy quotes and I think this is worth a discussion. We all know that Brandon loves pulling a fast one on us, hiding hints very early for much later pay-off. My theory essentially suggests that multiple people can fulfil the Hero of Ages prophecy - and that the next person to do so will be Kelsier in Era 3 or 4. Now I don't know whether this will mean he will take up the shards, as that isn't necessarily a pre-requisite of being the Hero of Ages as per the quotes, but that he is in someway destined to save the world. I have laid out the quotes below, and left some comments underneath some of them. As you can see, since the release of Secret History, there are a lot of these prophecies that match Kelsier very nicely. Let me know what you all think of this - I can't help but think that many of these prophecies can be linked with Kelsier too nicely given what we know since Secret History and Mistborn Era 2. As always, rip it to pieces.