Search the Community

So, I've had a couple of theories for a while now that I've wanted to put out there. I don't know if a WoB contradicts them, but I figured I should post this first one. The storm father's explanation in Oathbringer of how the desolations started began with the fuzed and singers attacking humans and the heralds creating the oathpact to stop them. But why exactly did the ancient singers attack in the first place? The way the books are set up, it appears as though after humans arrived on Roshar, they attacked the singers, and the singers retaliated, turning to Odium for power. But this never made much sense to me. First of all, it's never explicitly stated what the humans did to the ancient singers, and second, why would Honor choose to side with human invaders over the people of the world he'd made his home? The first point is actually very important. Sanderson has managed to use character's assumptions to set the tone of the series to great effect so far. Describing the thrill in such a way that readers naturally assumed it to be adrenaline is one of the best examples. The Ella Stele, the ancient document showing that humans were the original VoidBringers, only states that the humans betrayed them, with the betrayal extending to spren, stone, and wind. But, just as with the "Lost Radiants", the betrayal is not explicitly described. That seems intentionally vague to me. As if leaving enough room for something to be interpreted as a betrayal, with the singers interpreting the humans' actions as one, even if it hadn't been intended as one. As I said, the second thing that didn't make sense was why Honor would choose humans who'd supported Odium over the singers who had been of Roshar, especially if they had betrayed the singers who had taken them in. Imagining it as humans going back and forth between Honor and Odium seems unlikely. I think it much more likely that the human abandoned Odium shortly after arriving on Roshar. They saw Honor, and maybe Cultivation, as being more worthy deities, and chose to worship them instead. But then, what triggered the Desolations? Jealousy. As the introduction to chapter 32 of WoR, we get the following passage from a listener's song. The spren betrayed us, it's often felt. Our minds are too close to their realm That gives us our forms, but more is then Demanded by the smartest spren, We can't provide what the humans lend, Though broth are we, their meat is men. This is the passage that sparked this theory when I first read WoR and then Oathbringer a few years ago, with the last line being the most significant to me. If the Listeners had this song, then they knew about the bond between spren and humans/singers. And this passage makes it seem like spren seem to prefer humans to singers for some reason. The betrayals between singers and spren are mentioned in RoW on at least two occasions. The first is mentioned by Blended during Adolin's trial, when she's testifying against him. The second betrayal is implied by Leshwi to Venli, when she says the spren have forgiven them. But what exactly were these betrayals? I think it has to do with how humans can become surge binders much more easily than singers. Syl tells Kaladin in WoR that Parshendi can't become surgebinders, and Venli expresses her surprise to bonding Timbre in Oathbringer for the same reason. I don't know why spren can bond humans more easily, my current guess is because their emotions are more accessible, but if large numbers of spren were drawn to humans and away from singers after the humans arrived, that could easily be seen as a betrayal that extends to the spren, wind, and stones. This leads to my previous conclusion, where singer jealousy is specifically what triggered all this, which is also the betrayal mentioned by Blended. Odium almost certainly fanned the flames, increasing the ancient singers' jealousy of humans drawing the spren, and making them angry at the spren for "betraying" them, but that jealousy was his opening. The singers turned to Odium, who granted them the power to take revenge on humans, which made them the easily manipulated army he wanted. Thoughts?

I might just be dumb and am missing something, but I'm curious as to where the original humans came from. Especially because the humans on Scadrial and Roshar seem to be anatomically similar. My first thought was that they were from Scadrial and that was the planet they destroyed, but it was Preservation in his first moments of power.

I was reading the article on the coppermind about the Dawnchant and this quote caught my attention: "They came from another world. Using powers that we have been forbidden to touch. Dangerous powers, of spren and Surges. They destroyed their lands and have come to us begging." Notice that the Singer writing this mentions another world (Ashlyn) and Destroyed lands. This leads me to believe that the humans took over Shinovar first. But some sort of ecological disaster caused them to go to the native Singer population and ask for more land. This might also explain why the Shin look so distinctive, they are the humans that stayed in Shinovar and where changed by the disaster that happened there. We also know that spren are rare in Shinovar, that would suggest that the cognitive realm is different there compared to the rest of Roshar. The powers of spren and surges mentioned might include abilities that warp the cognitive realm and make it hard or impossible for most spren to manifest in Shinovar. What ever was unleashed may have restructured the boundary between Shadesmar and the Physical realm in such a way that it distanced them or created a Sel like environment that is hostile to life. This is supported by Shinovar being the region of Roshar closest to Sel on the map. That region of the Cognitive Realm sea is called the Sea of Regrets, which is also evidence the something bad once happened there. I think that we will soon find out what caused those names and why Shinovar is so different from the rest of Roshar.

So I keep feeling very curious about the nonhuman people of Roshar. Dysian Aimians and their violet blood make some sense, as we know Rosharan creatures from greatshells to cremlings bleed violet blood. Humans make sense in that their human, and obviously share red blood with other Yolish (non-Fain) life, like pigs, horses, chickens, etc. But does anything else on Roshar, besides the Parshendi, have orange blood? I just don't know what to make of it! I'm trying to read up on info, but while biology is a strong subject for me, chemistry is not. I'd love to see if anyone else has thoughts or insights about this. In any case, here's a link to an article about the many variations of blood in real life critters here on Earth.

I interpret OB’s text and the SLA plot to mean Odium intends human genocide. Maybe human death is a necessary part of Honor and Cultivation’s destruction, but that doesn’t explain what binds Odium to Roshar. Other explanations for human genocide, like Rayse hates humans or Divine Hatred must destroy, don’t work for me narratively. Instead, I theorize humans carry Odium Investiture they brought with them from Ashyn. I speculate Honor bound that Investiture to them. I think human genocide returns Odium’s Investiture to its source. Does Odium Want Rosharan Humans Dead? Desolations alone show Odium wants to eradicate humans. IMO, his negotiation with Taravangian at the end of OB confirms his goal (Chapter 122, Kindle pp. 1216-1217, emphasis added): Odium insists on few human survivors. He threatens to walk when Taravangian rejects Odium’s counter-offer. He coerces Taravangian’s acceptance. I trust Taravangian’s compassion: If he feels humankind is doomed, he believes it. I think Odium’s deal may save only now-living Kharbranth humans: “any humans who have been born into it, along with their spouses.” Odium omits children. He might have added, “or those who will be born…” If that’s the “spirit” of Odium’s deal, Rosharan humanity may end in a generation. Those are my reasons to think Odium wants to eradicate Roshar’s humans. Why would he make that his goal? What Does Human Genocide Gain Odium? Rosharan humans come from Ashyn (mostly). That planet’s magic derives from magical microbes: “Viruses and bacteria, various strains of them, have evolved in-line with the investiture on the planet to grant you a magical ability when you catch the disease…” Ashyn’s Investiture is presumably Odium’s. @Vortaan theorizes Stormlight makes humans disease-resistant and deprives them of their Ashyn magic. Brandon says Ashyn magical abilities end when the human host is healthy again: "You can fly as long as you have the common cold, but when you get over it, you can't anymore.” But does Odium’s Investiture disappear when the host is healthy and the microbe dies? The microbe’s death may end the magical ability, but the Investiture may remain inside the human host. That would leave every Ashyn human who ever got sick holding Odium’s Investiture. If they can pass that Investiture to their progeny, every living Roshar human probably holds Odium inside them. I theorize Honor traps Odium by binding that Investiture to humans. Maybe Honor first restricts humans to Shinovar to ban them from Stormlight. All is well until humans proliferate Roshar. Now Odium the Broken One wants his Investiture back. That’s my explanation (for now). I welcome yours.

So I was thinking about the Dawnsingers and I realized what they must have been; The Listeners before the arrival of Odium. When (the majority of) humans fled Ashyn after it was scorched and became refugees on Roshar (the origin of the Vorin myth about being driven out of the Tranquiline halls) the Listeners were already there as well as Honor and Cultivation. Odium was not yet on Roshar. When humans were struggling and scraping to survive in this new storm-blasted lands the Listeners would have helped them. Odium must have arrived and either struct a bargain with or corrupted the listeners to make them the Voidbringers. The Dawnchant was probably their language (maybe still their language) and the Dawncities may have been the cities they inhabited that the humans were welcomed into. At the dawn of humanity on Roshar, the people who sang were helpful to humans; the Dawnsingers. I couldn't find a thread on this, sorry if it's already widely known.

Once again, more of a question than a theory. I wanted to know the origin of Humans in the Cosmere. What I know: - Humans existed in Yolan. This is the planet from where the original Shardholders come from. - Ruin and Preservation created the Humans in Scandrial. Now, we see humans in several different planets from different solar systems and they are all similar. This tell me that they should have a similar origin. My hypothesis to explain the existence of a similar species in different planes are (and they are not mutually exclusive): The Shards create them all using Yolan humans are a guide. We know they can (by Scandrial). Humans travelled to the different planets from Yolan. They could have done it alone or aided by their Shards Humans evolved independently in each planet. VERY unlikely. .Adonalsium created humans in different planets... for reasons... As a side note, why almost just Humans. Forget Scandrial, that one was designed by Shards. In Roshar there are other sentient/intelligent creatures (the listeners and whatever the thing in Edgedancer was). But Sel, Taldain, Nalthis,Threnody and First of the Sun only seem to have Human as intelegent specie. Why? This planets supported life for a very long time. In some cases before the Shards arrive (by the way, do we know if/which of this planets had life before their Shard arrive?). There was time for many cool species to appear and adapt, but very little sentience speceis... Was this something that Adonalsium hard-wired in the Cosmere? Or am I missing something?

Here is a quote from the 17th Shard Q&A with Brandon Sanderson last Fall (sorry, this is a cut and paste. So far I only know how to quote within a thread. I haven't figured out how to do a quote from a separate thread yet.): 'Aethling', on 25 Sept 2012 - 16:37, said: Brandon: The first planet with humans on it was Yolen. And here is a paraphrase of another quote (forgive me that I was not able to find the actual text and context of the quote, but I am 100% sure that I read itthis week): Brandon was asked about humans on shardworlds before the arrival of the Shard and Brandon affirmed that on some worlds there were humans existing on the world at the time of the arrival of the Shard. Assuming that these quotes are accurate and Brandon wasn't having a brain fart, humans were able to travel (presumably by worldhopping) pre-shattering. Any ideas on how this was accomplished? Obviously, realmatics was in play prior to the shattering since physical, cognitive, and spiritual realms and forms form the underpinnings of the cosmere. So, while Shard abilities may enhance the ability to worldhop, they do not seem to be required. The caveat in that statement is perhaps Adonalsium enabled any and all worldhopping pre-shattering and thus all post-shattering worldhopping is accomplished by virtue of the powers of the shards. What does everyone think about pre-shattering worldhopping and how it may have been accomplished?