• Announcements

    • Chaos

      Oathbringer Spoiler Policy   11/13/2017

      Oathbringer is out! Let's make our policy on spoilers clear! 1. You must preface topics with Oathbringer spoilers with the prefix [OB] in the front 2. You are only allowed to post spoilers and spoiler topics in the Oathbringer Spoiler Board, Cosmere Theories, and some select work-related forums. 3. For posts in the Oathbringer Spoiler Board you do not need to use spoiler tags inside a topic marked [OB]. For Cosmere Theories, you also do not need to put spoiler tags inside your topic if the topic has [OB] in the title. However, for Cosmere Theories, if you are adding Oathbringer stuff to an old theory without the [OB] tag, those must go in spoiler tags and you must make it obvious outside the spoiler tag that the spoiler is regarding Oathbringer content. 4. For select things that do require talking about OB spoilers, in Events, Coppermind, and Arcanum forums, those are allowed but keep OB spoilers in spoiler tags 5. Avoid and minimize spoilers in topic titles--even though those two boards will not appear in the Recent Topics ticker, topic titles still appear in Recent Activity and the forum home.  6. You aren't allowed to post Oathbringer spoilers in places other than listed, even with spoiler tags.  It will be nine months and then the Oathbringer board will be re-merged with the Stormlight board and you will not need to tag these spoilers. If you'd like to move something in the Stormlight Archive board to the Oathbringer board, to update it with new Oathbringer information, Report the post and we will happily move it to the Oathbringer spoiler board. Part-by-part Reactions Though the Oathbringer Spoiler Board will be very spoilery, very fast (maybe don't come there until you've read the book, as people do have copies that bookstores sold early), you'll have these five topics for reactions if you want to nerd out: Part 1 Reactions
      Part 2 Reactions
      Part 3 Reactions
      Part 4 Reactions
      Full Book Reactions For parts 1-4, they will not include the interludes immediately following it. On Discord All Oathbringer spoilers on Discord will be exclusively in the #oathbringer_spoilers channel for the nine month spoiler period and nowhere else.

Seloun

Members
  • Content count

    439
  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won

    4

Seloun last won the day on March 17 2014

Seloun had the most liked content!

Community Reputation

811 Seer

About Seloun

Recent Profile Visitors

2,194 profile views
  1. Probably the most relevant quote for this is the following: This part is a bit confusing at first since at this point in the book the reader doesn't know what exactly happened when Dalinar first won Oathbringer; the flashback implies that he killed the heir for it. It's only later that the reader learns that Dalinar took the sword, but let the boy live. The 'oath' is likely Dalinar's oath not to usurp Gavilar's throne. While the Stormfather does say immediately afterwards that he knows of no way to restore the blade, this passage seems like a pretty big clue (also, the name - Oathbringer - is probably a big hint). Presumably it'll be necessary for the wielder of the blade to essentially assume the Ideals that were sworn by the original Radiant (which might make restoring e.g. Lightweaver blades extremely difficult). This isn't a particularly new theory, but there's been many theories on this, and this passage suggests that this is likely the mechanism to restore the dead spren. Assuming Adolin's blade is an Edgedancer blade, likely he'll have to assume Ideals similar to what Lift has sworn. If an external force is needed to revive the spren, I think a Bondsmith is probably the most likely candidate (much as how Ishar appears to have codified the bonds in the first place); I'm inclined to guess that it's not necessary, though.
  2. In WoR, Kaladin asks a pretty important question of Syl: Moash in Oathbringer is the beginning of the answer to that question. In effect, he is Kaladin from two books back, and the scene at the Oathgate is his stand at the Tower. As mentioned elsewhere on the thread, Moash's relationship to his crew is quite similar to Kaladin's relationship to Bridge 4, with many nearly direct parallels. I don't think this is a coincidence - this is instead a call back to the question in the quote above. With respect to Moash's attitude/behavior - it's probably a little unfair to compare Moash to Kaladin as he is now; among other things, Kaladin has a much stronger support team compared to TWoK (Dalinar, Adolin, Shallan, etc.) versus Moash who is essentially isolated (much as Kaladin was in TWoK in Sadeas's camp). Kaladin was quite defeatist in TWoK as well, remember, and much of his early reasons for trying to keep Bridge Four alive was somewhat selfish. And while Moash's issue right now appears to be not taking responsibility unlike everything-is-my-fault Kaladin, underlying both of their issues is self-hate. When Moash first intervenes for the Parshmen, he says: Shorly before this passage is the part where Moash seems to be disavowing responsibility for his actions: I interpret this as more of a coping mechanism for where Moash is right now. Moash still has an ideal (or perhaps an Ideal) about what he thinks society should be like, and he's not afraid to hold the nominally superior society to that standard. Specifically, when the society fails to meet his expectations, he doesn't alter his expectations - instead, he takes action to make that society closer to his ideal. If Moash is really just simply following directions, and if he was simply disavowing all responsibility for his actions, I don't see why he would have intervened for the group of Parshmen; he would have accepted it as being what the superior culture did, and that the fate of the Parshmen wasn't his responsibility. Moash has made a lot of mistakes and he certainly has issues. His internal monologue sounds like he's taken the easy way out and denied responsibility for his actions. Yet his choices with the Parshmen belie that initial interpretation. His salute to Kaladin is an acknowledgement of where he's come from, and that he is where he is due to his own choices. In that, he's not really that different from Kaladin near the end of TWoK.
  3. Those were two aspects of Jasnah that I also thought weren't portrayed very well. The first one was especially galling (it seemed to be in there just to contrast Windrunner vs. Elsecaller philosophies) especially because it seemed so out of place for Jasnah to go for such an ad hominem attack. Given the number of unknowns, it should be pretty hard for Jasnah to simply rule out possible courses of action like she does here; she does a really bad job of checking her error bars in this scene. So yeah, this one is a bad one for sure. The second is a bit more excusable I think, considering how Shallan was the last time Jasnah saw her; even learning of what Shallan has accomplished in the meantime wouldn't necessarily change how Jasnah views Shallan (Jasnah has no context - most likely she only heard about Shallan's artistic skills figuring out the location of the Oathgate, and remember that Jasnah doesn't know anything related to the Ghostbloods or her dealings with Tyn). Jasnah does seem to reconsider based on new data: It's worth noting though that many of Jasnah's concerns about Shallan's behavior is pretty reasonable: Jasnah's actually put a good deal of trust in Shallan, considering her attempted theft, and her suspicions about Shallan having other secrets, potentially personally hazardous to Jasnah, is absolutely accurate, as we know. Shallan is a prodigy, but she's not an expert in all areas she wants to be an expert in, and her behavior in Oathbringer is really extremely erratic. The way Jasnah tries to deal with Shallan is not just from the perspective of a teacher, but someone trying to manage a potential threat. Finally, Jasnah even admits that she's not necessarily a good teacher; in a way Shallan ends up being a pretty good ward for her precisely because Shallan turns out to be so personally driven. And there were many good scenes with Jasnah, regardless of the issues above (pretty much every other time she shows up, really): - Learning she has offline backups. This was awesome. The only way it could have been better was finding out that she has version control. - Consoling Dalinar: - Spanreed chatrooms (complete with GIRL). They've literally invented IRC. - Thaylen City. No selling the two Fused without even looking at them. She's probably not the one to go up against Amaram because it'd have lasted about five seconds. Basically, it's not that everything with Jasnah was perfect, but that she's well-characterized as the most intelligent person in the series, and she gets a lot of good scenes. Everyone gets bad scenes; if that disqualified a character from being likeable, no one would qualify. I think the main issue is that despite Jasnah being in Oathbringer as a POV character, she's still relatively minor - she's really only in two of the five parts - so she doesn't quite get as much time to shine.
  4. I really hope there's more to it. However, it's hard to imagine Nale and the Stormfather both are clueless about this considering both literally lived through it, and in Nale's case, almost certainly was directly involved. ...That said, there are some faint hopes: - We never actually see what Nale told Szeth. It might be something more involved that still leads to the conclusion that the Parshendi law is the rightful law. - The Stormfather seems to only remember as Dalinar learns - so he can provide confirmation but not necessarily volunteer too much new information. - The primary source that's revealed to the characters is NOT specifically about the Recreance (being written well before that), but just the fact that the humans are actually the invaders (with Odium).
  5. - Moash: I presume it's only usable by a human. - Vivenna: She specifically says it's a sword that she's chasing (and the person who took it): It might be Vasher, though her reaction if that's her actual quarry is a bit odd: While she says she's looking for him, she doesn't offer to go with them to find him, making me believe that he's not her primary target. - Cryptic: Not sure why it would go back to the Cognitive because Elhokar died. No reason to think that's the case (not sure the spren would have enough self-awareness to even do so). What would be crazy is if this was actually Tien's spren who ended up following Kaladin to Elhokar. - Elhokar's son: Magic. Probably literally, using the last bit of their connection to Kaladin's Windrunner powers. Being able to fly makes getting away somewhat easier. - 10th person: Almost certainly Venli, who was there but Dalinar didn't know about. - Szeth's hiring: AFAIK Dalinar already knows. Taravangian implies that he was forced to pre-emptively admit his objectives to Dalinar near the end because Szeth did or would in short order tell Dalinar what he knew about Taravangian. - Third black spren: Um, no idea on this one. I must have missed it. - How will fourth book be even better: by including more scenes with Jasnah.
  6. That's actually evidence for Tien being the one who bonded a spren, as the actual quote is (em mine) Tien certainly died well before Helaran arrived. However, this does suggest it was still the Skybreakers (just not Helaran) who were responsible for Tien's death... ...which just made me realize the potential rage Kaladin might have when he learns about it. Wow.
  7. Given what we know, I'd have to go with the obvious solution, though I think 'we' is probably very inclusive (probably including humankind in general). I have to assume the 'you' refers to Dalinar in some sense, since the quote continues as: Odium certainly seems to be referring to Dalinar when he says 'kill him', and the text doesn't seem to indicate that Odium's focus has shifted between the lines (it's clear Odium's attention is rather focused here). I don't think it's necessary to proscribe a deep meaning to 'we', either - when people were united it seems like Honor was able to deal with Odium pretty handily, so I think it's natural for Odium to say 'we' killed Honor. The Stormfather describes how he restores Stormlight in exactly the same terms the Perpendicularity is created: I'm not sure that Dalinar is summoning the Perpendicularity in the storm so much as creating a new one (that's what the description certainly sounds like). But the original Honor's Perpendicularity is probably the storm, which is why it's considered to be unreliable:
  8. I always felt that the strongest evidence for Tien possibly being a proto-Lightweaver was the chasm scene, where Kaladin directly compares the effects Shallan and Tien both have/had on him: (em mine) And note that Tien was a fantastic artist (also, see the similarities of Tien's effect on Kaladin near the end of the quote): There's very few people who affect Kaladin in this fashion; in particular, Syl has a lot of trouble trying to cheer Kaladin up. Shallan's tendency to make people think better about themselves is put in terms of soulcasting: Contrast with: The way Pattern describes it makes me think the 'cheerleading' part really is related to the combination of the Lightweaver surges (Transformation and Illumination). All in all, I think there's a lot of evidence for Tien being a Lightweaver or at least a Lightweaver candidate.
  9. There's a passage near the end of the book that immediately bugged me from initial reading: The obvious interpretation is that there should be a representative of each of the Orders here. The KR that are represented for sure are: Bondsmith - Dalinar Windrunner - Kaladin Skybreaker - Szeth Edgedancer - Lift Lightweaver - Shallan Elsecaller - Jasnah Truthwatcher - Renarin These are the 7 Radiants Dalinar appears to be referring to, leaving Stoneward, Willshaper, and Dustbringer. Malata is pretty clearly not being counted here. We know there's actually a 10th that Dalinar isn't aware of at the battle (Venli). So the question becomes: which slots do Venli, Taln and Ash fit? (As an aside - I did consider the possibility that one of the existing KR are in the 'wrong spot', but the only candidate for which that seems potentially likely is Renarin; for this argument I'm going to neglect this as a likely possibility) Taln seems pretty obviously the Stoneward. I think Venli is probably the Willshaper, as the spren she's bonded to doesn't look like what I'd imagine an 'ashspren' to look like, and she fits the epigraph description of Willshapers pretty well (though it also says Willshapers are pretty varied in the first place). So that leaves Ash. While the most obvious Order to associate with Ash is Lightweavers, Shallan is already in that spot. We also know that most of the Heralds probably didn't join their own Orders: The wording is interesting because Nale doesn't say that none of the other Heralds became KR, but specifically that they didn't join their own Order. While this also would technically disassociate Taln with Stonewards, Nale allows for room for not knowing about it, or (more likely) the Heralds that did join the KR (including Nale) probably did so after the last Desolation (which obviously would mean Taln didn't have an opportunity). That said, she's probably not actually bonded to a spren at this point given Baxil's interlude: So presumably she doesn't actually have a Shardblade, but she thinks she could get one, which suggests she's not actively bonded (no Shardblade, but doesn't see any reason she couldn't use a dead one). I'm not sure if this would preclude her from having previously been bonded, however. We also know that Ash's behavior is pretty destructive with regards to images of herself, as well demonstrated in pretty much every scene with her. This is quite anomalous from what we'd expect from Lightweaver behavior (artists) but fits pretty well with what seems to be pretty typical Dustbringer attitude. Finally, her name is 'Ash'! Okay, so not really evidence, but it'd be rather ironically fitting. So my hypothesis is that Ash is the Dustbringer representative - either she was one, or she's going to be the 'main' Dustbringer of the series. The other possibilities are that it's not necessarily one of each Order (though it otherwise fits so well that it's hard to imagine otherwise) or Dalinar is looking for a pattern where there isn't one (obviously because she's not actually a Lightweaver...). It seems like an odd scene to throw in either of those cases, however.
  10. It's worth noting that the future that's blocked from Odium appears to be due to Renarin: Presumably this is due to Renarin's bond with the corrupted spren somehow causing Odium to be unable to predict Renarin's influence (i.e. why the events near end of Oathbringer did not correspond to Renarin's visions). So it's not likely to be a direct effect of the Diagram. It's always possible to postulate that Taravangian is/was playing an even longer game than what we see - the problem is that you can always suggest that. For example, it's possible that all of the 'errors' in the Diagram are intentionally put there to make sure the people who are trying to interpret the Diagram act in the proper manner (e.g. Taravangian's attempt to kill Dalinar is actually what causes Kaladin to advance as a KR/Dalinar to go on the proper path). The issue is that you can always claim that (just as planned!) and while in this case it's somewhat more likely than normal to be true, in a sense it's a cheat, since effectively it'll be justifying his actions post facto. That said, the words that show up for Taravangian to read seems to suggest that at the very least, this particular contingency was planned for to some extent. Whether this outcome is what the Diagram expected, who knows? (which is why I rather dislike this kind of reasoning, since it really doesn't tell us much about what's going to happen)
  11. Right, I don't suggest that the bond is what actually Splintered Honor (Odium also states that 'we killed you' to Dalinar while he's channeling the Perpendicularity). I'm suggesting that Honor may have been bonded with the Heralds in a similar fashion as the spren are bonded to the KR, and Honor's apparent loss of faculties during the Recreance may have been due to the same reason as e.g. Syl and Pattern's loss of faculties - their bondmates started to stray from their oaths. Basically this is in reaction to 'why did Honor apparently go crazy during the Recreance?' I'm suggesting it's due to the Heralds, and that if it works like the spren bond, figuring out how to restore the spren bond might also lead to figuring out how to re-form Honor, or his Shard.
  12. I think there may be a parallel between the dead spren and Honor's death. Specifically, I think Honor (and his Shard) was essentially the spren of the Oathpact bond with the Heralds. Honor apparently losing his mind near the Recreance is somewhat reminiscent with what happens with Syl and Pattern when Kaladin and Shallan stray from their oaths. If this analogue is accurate, figuring out how to restore the dead KR spren may be the key to figuring out how to restore Honor (or at least his Shard). I think what Dalinar has right now is essentially the Honor Shard equivalent of a dead Shardblade - still powerful, but missing the essential nature of what really made it special.
  13. it's worth noting that we do have a pretty good case study of another, similar triangle: Gavilar - Navani - Dalinar. And we know roughly how that ended up. So, who knows? That said, I think it'd cheapen a lot of the decisions made near the end of the book if this gets revisited too soon. Specifically, Kaladin says he doesn't think he was actually in love with Shallan: That someone being, of course, Tien, which does make the scene rather more ambiguous. However, I think we're supposed to interpret the little scene immediately after with the color changing rock as Kaladin learning to cheer himself up at times. Ultimately, while I think the relationships here were handled kind of poorly, I think I'd rather the parties stick to their guns and tie up this loose end. Frankly, the thing that irritated me the most is that the whole secret about Helaran's death meant absolutely nothing - and that the secret meant nothing is really what convinces me that this is the actual resolution.
  14. I'm inclined to say that it does have to do with triaging. If we accept that the windspren start showing up around Kaladin when he's getting close to the Fourth Ideal - The Second and Third Ideals are very inclusive - protecting those that can't protect themselves, and protecting everyone despite his dislike for them. However, this inclusiveness leads Kaladin to start questioning the potential conflicts of Ideals starting in WoR, and it comes to a head during the Kholinar Oathgate scene: And this results in everyone Kaladin was trying to protect here dying - in trying to save them all, he saves none of them. It's interesting to note that Kaladin seems to make an assumption that he has to kill people to protect here; I'm not sure if this is Kaladin's mistake or the writing, but he doesn't seem to consider potentially non-lethal solutions, e.g. lashings. Of course it probably would be a very short term solution if he couldn't get people to disengage, and he probably still wouldn't have been able to save everyone. It might also be representative that protecting people non-lethally is probably easier if you have Shardplate instead of just a Shardblade. So the Fourth Ideal is probably some kind of priority or exception handling so the Windrunner doesn't blue screen (so to speak) as Kaladin does here. That said, I think there are probably multiple variants that the Oaths will accept. We know that there's a lot of leeway in how the Oaths can be interpreted and accepted (even from the Skybreakers, who likely have the most stringent requirements on their Oaths), and among other things we see Dalinar apparently make up his own (while this is probably somewhat related to his powers as a Bondsmith, the Stormfather is surprised by Dalinar's Oath and what it lets him do - presumably the Stormfather already knows what a Bondsmith should be able to do). So it may be that Kaladin won't be able to accept the 'canon' version of the Oath and find a different way to do his triaging. The Oathgate scene shows that Kaladin has to find some kind of solution, even if it's not the seemingly callous solution the old Windrunners apparently ended up with. It's worth noting that the optimal solution to the problem with the Fused (though perhaps not Odium in general) is probably not to restore the Oathpact, but to convince the parshmen stop sacrificing themselves to them. Everyone is worried about the ability of the Fused to return, not realizing or knowing that they need willing volunteers to do so. I don't think simply choosing a side is the ultimate 'right' answer for Kaladin, even if he does need a way to make choices when necessary. Instead, I think his job will be to find a third option.