ccstat

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ccstat last won the day on February 18 2017

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  1. I agree with what been said so far. These aren't the best examples of graphic novels, and I don't feel the need to own them. But that is partly because my public library has physical and digital copies that I can borrow. I definitely recommend trying it if you can read the story for free.
  2. I'll post my reactions later, but I want to link to the ebook copy on Hoopla. If your library has a Hoopla subscription, you can read it there.
  3. Ebook, page 106, center panel. Kenton's dialog attributed to an assassin. ("We can discuss that once...")
  4. Thanks to the Tor.com reread, I found out that "blood of my fathers" isn't new from Oathbringer. It wasn't on my earlier list, but it shows up frequently in WoK used by Dalinar, Amaram, and Moash.
  5. I spent some more time on the letters today, and I think you are right about these altered characters. There are other places where the letters are simply scrunched rather than altering the top stroke, so I don't understand how the artist chose to handle each case--why not scrunch these, or alter the others instead? I guess it doesn't really matter. Yeah, it could be anything really. V still looks close to me, but H makes a lot of sense with the top-stroke flip. I suspect we will need to guess it from a viable translation. With that in mind, and assuming J=G, that top section (?LGFT) looks like it could end with "...gified" or "...gaped" or "__ gift". Nothing I try for the first half makes sense with any of those though. I think you are right about the thaylen letters, but the reasoning doesn't make much sense to me. If vowels have diminished importance in both written and spoken Thaylen, then I would expect consonants to carry more information content, and therefore to have more variation / fewer "redundancies." But that's neither here nor there. Word length of actual Thaylen could be long enough to make up for it. EDIT: Okay, I tried to arrange the letters we know into a chart where relationships between similar characters could stand out. Each column roughly shares the bottom/core element, and each row shares the (potentially mutable) top stroke. Grayed out letters for N, H, and Z are ones we saw in the Thaylen map border but don't feature on the mythica border. The grayed S is an extrapolation of the stroke-flip rule if it applies to that letter. We also have three unknowns: the maybe-an-H from the top row, and two letters that are partially obscured in the bottom right corner.
  6. Excellent insight! I'm convinced you are correct about the upside-down P characters being J instead. As you point out, it would be an intermediate between the Thaylen letter J and the glyph element for J, so that makes a lot of sense. And it very conveniently gives us Sja-Anat in the border. I examined the rest of the letters again: P/J are the only ones that have an apparent vertical reflection. R, K, and S each occur a bunch of times, always in the same orientation. L, V (presumed), and Sh (presumed) occur only once, in the expected orientation. P, J, T, N, occur in both the "normal" orientation (from the glyph elements chart and Frostlands map), and a horizontal reflection. These last letters that get reflected freely are the ones that have redundancies in English, so I'm tempted to assign, e.g. T and D to different versions of their character. However, we have confirmation from the artist that "corrupted" is part of the border, and both places where it might occur use a repeated character that has to be transliterated as both T and D. So I provisionally conclude that these horizontal reflections are purely artistic and we are free to use either redundant letter in each case. The part I'm not comfortable with yet is the characters you reinterpreted with asterisks. Your translation makes a lot of sense, and it would be convenient if they could be read the way you propose, but it doesn't make sense that the characters would be as mutable as that. Why would an R, to take the asterisk character in your proposed "secrets," be written identically six times around the border, but for the seventh occurrence it gets twisted around strangely? If that sort of alteration is possible, then that same character could just as easily be a Z or N. You could be right, but it makes me cringe a bit. With that in mind, though, I could make a weak case for it by calling it artistic license--the border describes a powerful spren known for "twisted creations," and certain letters could be intentionally distorted to convey the sense of wrongness that comes from the corruption of her touch. Also, it is hard to propose an alternative to your asterisked N. The right side clearly says Sja-Anat now that we've assigned the J correctly; the left side mirrors it except that the N appears to have been replaced with a Z. If SJNT = Sja-Anat, what could SJZT be? It's definitely easier to think that some sort of distortion is happening and the letter is intended as an N. That is how I'm currently interpreting them. They look like artistic spacers more than anything. Still could be W though. I tried to guess some more at the letters obscured by other things. Combining those guesses with your proposals, this is what we have so far. Asterisks are reinterpreted characters. Parentheses are questionable assignments. I'm still not sold on those asterisks, but I don't have a good counterproposal at the moment.
  7. Since the moons are small, I have in mind that they won't be affecting tides very much. I don't have a good enough grasp of the relevant factors to say for sure though. I thought to check how small the moons actually are. Peter has said that Phobos (11 km across) is the right ballpark, so let's start there. Our own moon has an angular size of about half a degree in the sky. Assuming a closest approach of 2R, a Phobos-sized moon would reach a maximum angular size of 0.05 degrees. To appear as large as our moon, a body would need to be more like 100km across. Phobos weighs 10^16 kg, so 100 km moon of similar composition would be ~10^18 kg. In comparison to Roshar's mass of 3x10^24 kg that is still very small, but it might be big enough at these distances to cause tidal effects? I'm not sure. [EDIT: I used this online calculator to figure out tidal forces. Plugging in the numbers for Roshar and this hypothetical 100 km moon, it says that the average tidal force would be 3% of our moon's. Tidal force decreases with the cube of the distance, though, so at periapsis it would be significantly more than that. Using the orbit I've been dealing with (eccentricity=0.45) the tidal force at periapsis would be 20% of our moon's. If you increase the eccentricity to 0.68, periapsis gets you the same tidal force as our moon. I still don't know enough about tides to understand what that varying force (arising from the eccentric orbit) would do. I'm inclined to think that because the moons orbit with a period of exactly one day that there would be resonant effects and the tides would be larger than you might expect from only e.g. 20% of the force.] (Incidentally, seen from Mars Phobos has an angular size of 0.1 degrees, and orbits a bit less than 2 Martian radii from the surface.) I think it's reasonable to have the moons (at periapsis) appear between 10% and 100% the size of ours in the sky, so we can probably conclude that all three moons are somewhere in the range of 10-100 km across, (they can tend to the smaller end if we go with a more elliptical orbit). We had a discussion on Discord yesterday where I was reminded that Roshar is still rotating relative to the moons' orbits, a factor that was omitted from my previous visibility time considerations. This has two major effects. The first is that the moons cross the sky twice, once during the day and once at night. With the eccentricity we are considering for the orbits, the moons at their smallest will be 20-25% of their maximum size. (That is, if Nomon at periapsis looks as big as our moon with an angular size of 0.5 degrees, then at apoapsis during the day it should look about one fifth as large with an angular size of 0.1 degrees.) The second effect is that the visibility times are shortened a bit compared to what I calculated. The correction for Roshar's rotation will have the biggest effect when the moons are moving slowly (especially during the day) and the smallest effect when they are moving quickly (for observers in central Roshar). Consequently, the visibility times for central and coastal Roshar will even out a little bit from the disparity calculated before. Unfortunately, this also exacerbates the time zone issue. Regarding the complete absence of daytime moon sightings by our characters, there is no way that people haven't noticed but I find it reasonable to suggest they don't care much. One suggestion on how to make the daytime moon appearances less prominent was to give the orbits a sharp inclination. I calculated the highest position in the sky for a day and night moon at various inclinations, when observed from either the equator or from a latitude of 45 degrees South (hopefully the chart formatting will work here). Angles given indicate degrees above the horizon, so 90=zenith, 0=at horizon. I've rounded off to the nearest 5 degrees, so we don't get too distracted by details. Inclination of Orbit Observer at equator Observer at 45 S Night Day Night Day 0 90 90 30 40 10 75 75 45 30 25 60 60 60 10 45 30 40 90 below horizon The upshot is that an inclined orbit won't make any difference for people near the equator, but further south (where most of our cities are) it could matter a lot. The inclination needs to be at least 20 degrees before it has a real impact, though.
  8. Okay, this is embarrassing. I just caught a dumb mistake in my calculations from yesterday. (I somehow doubled Roshar's radius when I graphed it out.) Correction: Now the example orbit is not quite as close: 2R at closest approach (rather than 0.5R). This means it rises in Shinovar just after setting in Alethkar. (So we've gained a buffer of one hour, not two, in our time zone considerations.) The increased distance also means that the change in apparent size, while still substantial, is less dramatic. Nothing is going to triple in size, though it can still come close for some locations. Approximately doubling in size won't be uncommon. The visibility times don't change drastically from what I posted before. Add half an hour for coastal observers, three quarters of an hour for central observers.
  9. Either I've misunderstood you or there is a math error here. Never mind, it was my error. Your numbers are correct. I misread your semi-major axis from the other thread as km rather than m. (For the record, in kilometers your numbers from the previous thread are radius=5740 km and semi-major axis=30,890 km). I can confirm that with the eccentricity we settled on in the previous thread, the moons should approach well within 1R at closest approach. That makes sense but wow, that's a close orbit. In light of this, it turns out that my visibility calculations from before are way off. I ignored displacement across the planet, and the effective horizon; it was negligible when I thought the orbit was 1000 times bigger than it actually is, but now it definitely has to be factored in. At first glance it will help substantially. The shared visibility between Alethkar and Shinovar is completely eliminated, even for a circular orbit. We need to recalculate the eccentricity in light of this, and the visibility times. I'm working on the calculations now, and will post when they are ready. ===EDIT=== Calculations: (NOTE--I've made an error here. See my next post for corrections.) Okay, here are the numbers. They are better in some ways, but the increased detail reveals some more complication that I'm not entirely sure what to do with. The first upside is that the moons are close enough that they are never visible to the entire continent at once, no matter how eccentric the orbit. Depending on the details, moonrise in Shinovar is up to an hour after moonset in Alethkar. The complication is that the moons spend very different amounts of time in the sky depending on the observer's location. Using the fairly eccentric orbit from the first thread (which actually brings the moon to an altitude of ~0.5R), an observer directly below periapsis would see the moon cross the sky in 2 hours. Assuming that happens in the center of the continent, an observer at either coast would have 4.8 hours between moonrise and moonset. With a less eccentric orbit the times only get longer. We can make the orbits more eccentric, but then the moons are passing ridiculously close to the surface of the planet. If we go super extreme and let a moon get within 0.2R (~1000km), then the same periapsis observer sees it rise and set in 1 hour, while the coastal observer gets 3 hours of moon time. For comparison, note that with a circular orbit the moons would still be close enough (1.6R) that they would rise and set in 7.5 hours; this would be true everywhere on the planet. On a separate note, the distance of the moon from a given observer (and therefore its apparent size) changes a lot as it travels across the sky. Even if the orbit was circular, the moons are close enough that they would grow by 50% from moonrise to moonheight. If we take the same orbit as before (the one that reaches 0.5R over central Roshar), our central Rosharan would see the moon more than double in size, while a coastal observer would see it more than triple. So far nobody in-world has remarked on this except for Wit's "It was a night when the moons were large" comment, which doesn't quite convey the same idea. CONCLUSIONS: These moons are practically grazing the surface of the planet in order to get across the sky in under 2 hours. There is no way that everyone on Roshar experiences the same moon schedule. Those living near periapsis are likely to see a moon for less than half the time compared to distant observers. We don't need to be quite as concerned about the time zone issue, since the moons can't be seen by the whole continent at once.** The apparent size of these moons is going to vary dramatically as they cross the sky. **Edit2--Clarification on why the time zone concerns are less die: Before, it seemed like the moons would rise in Shinovar at least an hour before they set in Alethkar, which put Salas rising around 2pm local time. Now they rise in Shinovar up to an hour after setting in Alethkar, which buys us an extra 2 hours and Salas now rises just an hour before sundown local time and probably stays in the sky for an hour or two after sundown, making the Shin experience of Salas much more similar to what we've seen from Salas in the east.
  10. Great work collecting those quotes, @Jofwu. I'm inclined to agree with you that the speed of Salas was retconned (or just in error in that first scene) from several hours to a bit over one hour, but as you mentioned that makes moonrise in western Roshar even more problematic than it already was. Here are the seals from the Vev and Jes endpages, and the moons behind Ishar (clearly a more fanciful rendition that won't help with timing): From the spacing, I'm not entirely convinced that the position corresponds (accurately) with each moon's appearance. I would have expected Nomon to be further from Salas to account for the moonless hour. I'll need to look at it a bit more closely, together with the textual references. Since all three moons have a period of one day and are visible near periapsis, a more elliptical orbit will mean a faster transit of the sky, while a less elliptical orbit will mean a longer time spent in the sky. It does appear from the AU chart that Mishim has the most circular of the three orbits--so it being slowest to cross the sky makes sense. It is worth pointing out that along with different moonrise times relative to sundown, the amount of time a moon spends in the sky will change based on how far east or west the observer stands. Moons travel fastest at periapsis, and slow down considerably away from that point. Without knowing where periapsis falls for each moon we can only apply it as a fudge factor, but in general moons should rise slower than they set in Alethkar, and conversely set slower than they rise in Shinovar. I agree that Salas needs to take more than an hour, but 2.5 seems long. I'm inclined to put it around 1.5, which means Nomon would rise ~2 hours before midnight. Say Nomon takes 3 hours, and Mishim takes 3.5, setting about half an hour before dawn. Just spit-balling at the moment--again, I'll have to look at it a bit more closely. Good catch on the clock system. I don't think there's any need to mess around with overlap from day bells and night bells. Yes, dinner an hour before sunset seems early, but I suspect that's a lighteyes/nobles thing. The highprinces seem to have feasts every few days that last well into the night. I'm guessing "dinner" is a light meal for them and they eat again while entertaining or being entertained in the evenings. A working class family would probably order their time differently. If the continent extends only to 60 degrees south then latitude won't gain us more than 20 minutes of leeway on sunrise/set. From what I found online, it's only when you approach 80 degrees or so that things really start to shift around. A more refractive atmosphere could extend daylight a bit, but I'm not sure that would actually make much difference. They seem to have fairly accurate and consistent clocks, which makes me think that their hours are well defined and wouldn't alter the bell system much. I think those are just the surges associated with the polestone essences, rendered artistically as "2 each" rather than "2 each with adjacent essences sharing one".
  11. That's my impression after starting your suggested quote compilation. I only have WoK and Edgedancer on ebook right now, but I'll get WoR and OB from my library to search for references. Here is every mention of the moons from the two I have, organized chronologically though a given night. I tried to include the location of the observation and any available time markers.
  12. Took another look at the moon visibility question. This feels obvious to actually say, but it took me a stupidly long time to draw it out and convince myself of the geometry so I'll post my conclusions in hopes that they're useful to someone else. Without doing any math yet, the concept can be explained very simply: the continent takes up less than half the planet, so there is some portion of the sky that is visible to observers on the east and west coasts (and everyone in between). When a moon passes through this strip of sky, it will be visible to everyone on the continent. Since the moons are moving across the sky quickly, they will rise much earlier (local time) for people in the west than for people in the east. Now let's use some actual numbers to figure out how much earlier. According to the new map from OB, roshar spans 77 "Rosharan degrees" of longitude out of a total of 200. (Converting to Earth units, that's ~140 degrees.) A big chunk of that comes from including Aimia where nobody human goes, so let's confine ourselves to comparing the shattered plains to Shinovar. Those are about 60 Rosharan degrees apart (110 Earth degrees). Since the Rosharan day is 20 hours long, each "time zone" spans 10 Rosharan degrees, meaning that there is a 6 hour difference in local time between the shattered plains and eastern Shinovar. The two locations share about 70 (Earth) degrees of sky, so if the moons will take three hours to cross the sky then they will rise in Shinovar close to an hour before they set on the plains. The mechanics of the elliptical orbits will mess up the actual rise and set times, but for a ballpark let's pretend that the moons cross the sky similarly in both places. In Alethkar the approximate moon schedule (in 20-hour Rosharan time) is: Salas rises at sundown around 15:00, sets around 18:00 An hour of darkness Nomon rises around 19:00, sets around 02:00 Mishim rises around 02:00 (when Nomon sets), and sets near sunrise around 05:00 Using our conclusions from above, that would mean that the Shinovar schedule looks something like this: Salas rises at 11:00 and sets around 14:00 Nomon rises around sunset at 15:00, sets around 18:00 Mishim rises around 18:00 (when Nomon sets), and sets around 02:00 Darkness until sunrise at 05:00 In actuality, those times will be shifted later because the moons will slow down after crossing their point of periapsis, but it definitely gets us close. It also means that Szeth's reference to the "hateful hour" of darkness between Salas and Nomon doesn't make sense for the Shin people since their moonless hour would occur around dusk not in the middle of the night. Conclusion: The moons should rise substantially earlier in the western part of Roshar. But we may have to ignore that and suspend disbelief a bit. It looks like Brandon may not have seen or paid attention to those calculations, and the moons' behavior is potentially being treated the same across the continent. On my next OB read I'll try to pick out references to the moons and see how they are described (if at all) from other locations.
  13. FYI, I've been in touch with Isaac via reddit and pointed him to this thread. He apparently dropped in to look at it sometime yesterday: He also said: That would be Miranda Meeks, who also did the Shadows for Silence cover art and some fabulous Mistborn pieces. Sounds like we are on the right track there.
  14. Amazing, @Wonko the Sane. I spent a long time staring at those symbols yesterday and didn't get anywhere useful. Great work!
  15. I resolved not to say anything about pronunciation of names or terms from the books, but "ray-fo"? Seriously @Windrunner? Just say RAFO the way Brandon does. There's no reason to mutilate that one. Regarding the investiture "broken off" from Odium, I interpreted Brandon's "Yes (asterisk)" to be a sneaky reference to the Unmade. They are pieces of his power that have been separated from him, but it was done intentionally rather than as a battle wound (the questioner's apparent line of thought).