Urithiru

I really like this timeline. It’s also supported by Eshonai’s many references in WoR of listeners freeing themselves “centuries” ago, not the “millennia” you’d expect if it had happened after the last desolation. Still a question of how or why they managed it, and only them. Did BAM completely control those bonded to her, or was it more like leading them and giving them access to forms of power? How much choice was involved? Did Sja-anat maybe help free some of the singers? What about the Voidspren (who may be pre-Roshar human spirits?) like Ulim? They seem intelligent and survived the desolations and capture of BAM so that they could guide Venli to bring back the Fused, and reestablish Connection for all singers. Could some of the Voidspren, maybe working with Sja-Anat who seems to want freedom from Odium, have helped the listeners escape into dullform? I think the origins of the listeners will prove critical in the story. Maybe they freed themselves? Maybe their sacrifice was what so convinced the Radiants that they were on the wrong side or to at least abandon the war in disgust?

Whatever the reasons, Shadesmar looks and works differently on Roshar than Scadrial. Beads, for starters. On Scadrial, it looks more like Wheel of Time’s tel’aran’rhiod. The OP got me thinking about the souls that have sided with Odium (or are “of” him) but don’t seem currently able to reincarnate: the golden Odium spren like the one that led the band of singers that picked up Kaladin. I forget if we have confirmation about the other Odium spren, but that one at least was described as looking like a Shin human. Throughout SA we keep meeting offworlders that Roshar humans think look Shin. Are these spren actually humans from Ashyn or Braize or wherever Roshar-humans came from? Were they once able to reincarnate but no longer? Since at least one of them seems to have guided Venli for years before the Fused were able to return to Roshar, they may be differently bound by the Oathpact. Were these the original human Voidbringers described by the ancient native singers? My guess is no because of the way they all seem to defer to the Fused as if they are older and more powerful. But that just raises other questions

So on rereading WoR I noticed one thing that may be helpful here, and if it’s common knowledge, I apologize. Eshonai repeatedly describes the history of her people as stemming from an even that happened “centuries” ago, when the listeners fled their gods by assuming Dullform. Not “millennia” but centuries. The last desolation was a lot longer ago than I think “centuries” implies. What we know did happen “centuries” but not millennia ago was the Recreance. This is hardly proof of anything, but it is suggestive. Perhaps also as important, we learn in WoR that the listeners, the implied natives of Roshar, believe that the Spren betrayed them by bonding with the human invaders, maybe because the spren can get something from the humans they can’t from listeners. But it in the real long sweep of Rosharian history, I’d say one of, if not the central, moral struggles has been one of invasion, conquest, slavery, and the mind/soul-murder of the indigenous inhabitants of Roshar. Humans have not been the only ones to blame here, as both they and the “gods” (of Odium?) have attempted to use and enslave the listeners, who fought back against odium’s enslavement/conscription “centuries” ago and are now in the midst of a massive slave revolt against their human enslavers. If the KR were founded primarily to kill enslaved-but-super listeners (who they call voidbringers), and those listeners freed themselves (or maybe had help somewhow during or in events surrounding the Recreance), maybe there is a link. Maybe both KR and the listeners had reason to believe they had become pawns, that both had been betrayed by the spren and that both “species” severed their magical bonds with their spren, at great cost to themselves, around the same time. The listeners’ songs indicate that they gave up power for both freedom and to prevent the return of their gods. Maybe the KR gave up their powers for similar reasons. Of course none of this explains what exactly precipitated this clearly coordinated event, nor why the KR gave away their Shards without explanation.

So if the quote is from a KR, then it is temporal shift of some kind, an echo of times past? Unless I totally misunderstood the book, these quotes are all being recorded in Kharbranth by Taravangian's healers in real time, right? And the KR are all dead, but the Heralds are still alive (as is Cultivation). Also, at least one of the quotes refers to 3 of 16 ruling on Roshar, so that's some Adonalsium knowledge (which not even Sazed has). Makes me think even more that at least some of these death quotes are coming from the consciousnesses of one of the original shareholders: Cultivation, Honor/Tanavast (via some artifact like the one that shows visions to Dalinar), or Odium/Rayse.

Hmm. If this is from a Herald, then there is still a big "how" to account for. These visions are happening on a global scale, and apart from that one Shin who refused to share, the power behind the visions seems to have no idea who exactly is speaking or listening. To me this sounds more like a mournful god who isn't paying attention to the consequences of her awesome power than a Herald (who so far don't seem to have anywhere near these kinds of powers). But, you may still be right, and maybe some more powerful entity (or artifact of Honor) is tapping into and sharing the minds of the Heralds with the rest of the world because they have abandoned the proper Heralding protocols. Sort of like what is happening with Dalinar. I agree that "Almighty" is a weird thing for Cultivation to call Honor. If it's coming from a Herald, could it be that "Almighty" means Honor AND Cultivation (after all, all the symbols for the Almighty show the double-eye joining of the two)? Cultivation seems to have abandoned or possibly cursed the Heralds much more clearly than Honor did (who was murdered). Maybe it should be read as "We were all one big happy family once, god-parents, so why have you abandoned us?" Edit: And thanks to Meg for the database tips.

The opening POV from Kalak in the prelude strongly indicates that the Heralds were normal people before they became Heralds. I might even go so far as to say it should put to rest the idea that the Heralds were directly created (from scratch, so to speak) rather than augmented after they were "normal" humans. And don't we have WoB confirmation somewhere that Shallash is Jezrien's daughter? (BTW, where can I find the database for such info from signings/interviews?) If the Heralds came to Roshar for Desolations then went back to Damnation between, it would stand to reason that there would be no time for having children. Also, that would mean that there were only 9 Heralds at one point (or that one died and was replaced). So I agree with option 1, too. Jezrien was a king before he became a Herald. That means he was a king of other people somewhere/sometime who obviously did not become Heralds. What happened to them? Did the Heralds (either before or after their Heraldization) predate the Dawnsigners and humanity's first appearance on Roshar? Probably unrelated, but this vision from chapter 2, TWoK stood out to me: Who is the "we" here? The Heralds, the Knights Radiant? Also, "Shard of my soul" sounds so much like a term of endearment, like "Shade of my heart" from WOT, that my best guess is that this voice is basically Cultivation mourning the loss of her love, Honor. Not sure if this a new idea or not, but does it change how we interpret the death visions if we assume that we are hearing Cultivation's consciousness/foresight leaking through in the moment of death?

Well, I think you're probably right, but we don't really know what they can do with the stormlight. Also, with Darkness saying that surgebinding brings on desolations, then maybe allowing these larkins to suck up enough stormlight from surgebinders creates enough of a "void" for something to happen... I lean towards larkins just being stormlight adapted natural organisms, however, that can be held captive for less epic reasons

Might they be voidbringers, or at least related somehow? Larkins suck in stormlight, possibly annihilating it. Szeth says that voidbringers were supposed to be able to hold in stormlight perfectly.

Yeeps, sorry! I edited previous posts best I could. Spoilers are hidden. Should I delete any Steelhunt allusions?

Thanks! I forgot that there were two races of Aimians. This is getting complicated! I think the Aimian genocide, and the moral and political questions this raises, would tend to fit with them being native, but the question remains whether the Parsh are also native. Some posters have alluded to the theory that the Parsh were the Dawnsingers, and maybe also the Voidbringers. Is there a fully fleshed out theory on this that some kind user would like to link me to? Thinking more on this, the only Aimian we "know" is Axies, and he has perhaps one the most extensive knowledge of spren of any character. He also fits well with Cultivation's themes, and can literally cultivate his body and senses at will. His shadow also points the wrong way (like Jasnah's?). He seems very nonviolent, and the sense from his POV is that Aimians are not particularly dangerous. So why were they killed? Do we know anything else about the different Aimian races? Do we know which one Axies is?

@Gloom: Thanks for the info on the Aimians. How do we know that they are not human? Did that come from TWoK or from WoB? If there's an interview or database link, could you send it to me? I'll have to think about this more, but right off the bat I am now struck that there are or were three sentient races on Roshar, where I had thought before there were only two (plus spren). The only Aimian we have seen seems unusual, and immortal, and can change shape. The Collector remarks that his nails and skin are typical of Aimians, but I can't recall if his weird shadow, or his shape-changing/self-healing abilities are... Also, why were they recently wiped out? Do you think Darkness might be responsible for the genocide? And since you seemed sad that everyone keeps forgetting the Aimians, could you perhaps elaborate more on the topic? You've got me interested! Anyways, even if we can say for certain that Shinovar was created (and it didn't evolve), and that humans also are not native, are we sure that the humans on Roshar evolved/were created elsewhere? Maybe from wherever Honor and Cultivation came (Tranquiline Halls?)?

Another possibility that I used to feel more confident about is that Shinovar is actually the only remnant of the original earth-like ecology of Roshar from before Honor and Cultivation arrived. That the highstorms didn't appear until the presence of the shards and that the combined onslaught of highstorms, desolations, and Cultivation's influence stripped away the topsoil, killed off all mammals and birds, allowed crustaceans and arthropods to fill vacated niches, and only in mountain-shielded Shinovar did the original humans, horses, cows, chickens, grasses, trees, and soil survive. It is also worth pointing out that the Shin are the only humans on Roshar with "normal" hair, "regular" eyes, and maybe even "normal" height. Thinner eyes (possibly adaptations to the dusty, windy regions of Roshar are the norm elsewhere, Thaylenans have weird eyebrows (maybe for same reason), some people have gold hair, Aimians have blue mineral nails and strange skin patterns (maybe like squids or cuttlefish?), and Alethi have weird hair genes too with purity clearly marked. What argues against this is that Shinovar looks EXACTLY like an Euro-American agricultural region. All the species are earth-based and WoB is that Earth is not part of the Cosmere. Chances that Roshar was ever naturally just like Earth then, seems remote. The only explanation that I think makes sense is that Adonalsium was like Earth or something. I was originally struck in the prelude by the early and cryptic mention of three colors of blood: red, orange, and purple. Are these shardic correspondences? Are the Parsh the only orange-blooded creatures on Roshar? I seem to recall that Axehounds have orange blood too, but maybe it is that they have carapaces instead of shells (like the Parsh). I think figuring this all out is important because determining who is native, who are colonists, who are the enslavers and who the enslaved will matter immensely to this story.

Thanks for that info @Argent. I had considered this possibility too, and had a few thoughts that I don't think radically alter my theory. First, since there are implications of pacts between shards (the Oathpact between Odium, Honor, and possibly also Cultivation; the detente pact between Ruin and Preservation), it is possible that Honor asked for part of the world to be sheltered (protected, very honor-like) so that the memory of whatever Earth-like world existed before could be kept safe while giving Cultivation the free reign to play with the evolution of the native species. Perhaps as part of the pact, Honor agreed to invest part of his power in the highstorms/stormlight to give Cultivation some extra energy to play around with. I believe Honor and Cultivation have/had a relationship by which they share or supplement each other's shard powers/energies to a certain degree (like a marriage, maybe). This is all so speculative, but it does seem to fit so far. Since I posted my theory I stumbled on Gloom's theory about Honor fleeing to Roshar from Odium and forcing Odium to invest part of himself on Roshar as part of the Oathpact. And since Argent confirmed that Honor and Cultivation arrived together, perhaps some humans created elsewhere in the Roshar system arrived together as well (the Heralds and some others). Were humans on Roshar made together by Cultivation and Honor or were they the "children" of only one? Maybe we should think of the Parshendi more along the lines of "second born" children of the gods, like Men in Tolkien. Not sure yet.

I have a question about the face/god/person that Kaladin speaks to when he has his highstorm vision of Roshar. Who is this?? If Honor is dead, how could it be him, unless it as another ghost recording thing. But doesn't he call Kaladin "Child of Tanavast" or something? It would be weird to call Kaladin "Child of Tanavast" if the face was Tanavast (even in death). And we are told repeatedly that Cultivation is female, so probably not her. And "Odium reigns" makes it unlikely, I think, that the face is Odium… So who? Could it be a herald? Could it be Jezrien ("Stormfather")? Another possibility is that Jezrien is that confused ("have you seen me") guy in the WoK prologue, and he is confused because he invested his consciousness in the highstorms to keep them going (or even to start them) after Honor's death. Maybe his wits return during the highstorm just like Dalinar falls into visionary hallucinations, and maybe Taravangian's mental state comes and goes. We know from Mistborn that power and investiture and consciousness are somehow related, that Preservation sacrificed awareness to add a little more of herself into the world. Maybe that is what one of the Heralds did? Could Taravangian be one of the heralds? What's going on with his fluctuating genius?

Hi all, First time posting at the 17th Shard, so bear with me if this is old hat. The idea that the Parshendi are Voidbringers has never seemed right to me, and this has something to do with politics, evolution, and magic. In the first place, there seems to be overwhelming evidence that the Parshendi are more (not less) native to Roshar than humans. They are better adapted to the ecology, have closer connections with spren (we now know), and have more similarities to the rest of fauna of Roshar (outside Shinovar): their blood may be orange, but like greatshells' blood, it smells like mold; they have carapaces; can possibly undergo metamorphosis of some kind; etc. We also have to take into account Brandon's pretty clear political views and knowledge of history. Brandon is interested in exploring the Other, but I doubt he would make the Parshendi/Parshmen, real-world parallels for African American slaves and American Indians, into the evil servants of a dark god hellbent on destroying the righteous honorable human civilization. Fantasy as a genre has enough of the kind of racist imperial fantasies of slaughtering vast nameless hordes of dark and ugly "monsters." Brandon knows this. I'd like to think he would be more interested in turning such conventions on their head than reinforcing them. My theory is that Cultivation came to Roshar first, and is responsible for almost all of the ecology and rapid evolution and diversity that we see. I believe that her "body" is the spren. I believe that the highstorms are native to Roshar. I think she created/modified some native lifeforms to look like the "humans" from Adonalsium, but be better adapted to the world of Roshar, and that these are the Parsh. A big question, then, is how did "humans" get to Roshar? I think Odium came next to try to kill Cultivation, and that Honor arrived to help Cultivation defend her world and her lifeforms. Lacking time (or creativity, or whatever), Honor created (or brought) an army of humans, and infused his "body" into the world as stormlight and shardplate/shardblades (someone who better understands the body/shard/magic stuff, please correct/corroborate this!). I think Shinovar was set aside as a more or less Shard-free zone. I know people have said it seems like Cultivation's territory, but I just don't see it. It is really just normal, with no magic, no spren, no stormlight, no exposed Roshar stone (could stone be Odium's body?). Cultivation would seem to be more inclined to cultivate biodiversity, to change, to adaptations, to breeding (or rapid, directed evolution). Shinovar could be where Honor "landed" with his humans, and Cultivation let him create a little temporary safe haven in case humans had too much trouble surviving Roshar, but then things got complicated and Honor settled in to stay. This still leaves us with the question of the Voidbringers. I am not sure we can really know for certain yet, but it seems to me that voidbinding is opposed to surgebinding, that is a question of magics more than a question of race. Of course, we also have evidence from Dalinar's visions and other sources (like Szeth) that the Voidbringers were a kind of creature that usually could not speak with human voices and could perfectly hold in stormlight. The Parshendi can speak (and as they look human, this shouldn't be very surprising to anyone), and we have no evidence they hold in stormlight perfectly (or at all, yet). But overall, I just don't think we have seen anything close to the Voidbringers or Voidish magic, except maybe for Thunderclasts and the Midnight Essence monsters.