Elwynn

I wouldn't call it definitive, but CH. 46 epigraph is also pretty suggestive that you had to go through Urithiru.

I see what you mean. I always thought the loss of everything after a desolation was more related to the pure destruction of...well everything during a desolation. The more time between would just mean more time to rediscover. You're right though, and I think there might be a quote but I can't remember, that in the beginning the time between desolations was incredibly long. Heck, the starfalls vision was stated as, "Eight Epoch, 337" or something, so even by the eighth or ninth desolation there were several hundred years in beetween. I get that you obviously think you have. That's what has me baffled. Seriously, you were quoting stuff that didn't even remotely relate to the discussion. But even more, I get that you don't want to talk about it anymore. At least we agree the art is beautiful right?

Of course not. Speculating is done with no evidence or support. Which is what you're doing when saying some small part of Odium is responsible for the red mist being red. There's much more logical evidence for what the red mist is and who represents it; which is also consistent with a very straightforward wob. Goalposts. This has nothing to do with why the mist is red or who represents it. Nightblood is destroying on all three realms, and the black smoke is investiture leaking. That is very different from a Shard (which NB isn't) co-opting or tweaking another Shard's investiture for their benefit, which is what the wob refers to.

@Pathfinder I tried quoting again but it's gets a bit confusing when previous quotes don't get carried over. So I'll try piecemeal. This began in relation to the artwork. Jez looks Alethi in the artwork(the only one who looks Alethi). So the artwork is pretty accurate. This has no relation to the artwork. I already agreed that Amaram (or anyone) would be surprised at a herald having darkeyes, similar to Dalinar's response to Jez. This has nothing to do with the Art you claim all look Alethi. Alethi didn't even do the artwork. Amaram has erroneous expectations of a herald's appearance. But the artwork doesn't. Shalash, Ishar, and Vedel do not look Alethi so how can you claim they're culturally washed out? They aren't even done by an Alethi artist. Well, Oilsworn isn't. This says nothing about the discussion of the endpapers. I'm aware of who Shalash is. Again, this says nothing about the discussion of the artwork. It is stated many times Shalash and Taln are dark skinned, and Taln is the darker pigmented one. Shalash is dark skinned in the art, so it is somewhat accurate and not 'washed out' from Alethi expectations. Jez is depicted Alethi and looks nothing like Shalash. As per the quotes from the books as well as the WoB I posted above, it is refuted. You're not even attempting to address the artwork in relation to wobs and in-book descriptions. I don't know how you think any of those wobs refute anything. The artwork doesn't display all the heralds as Alethi, in fact is presents them as drastically different. Which is the opposite of you saying they all look Alethi in the art.

What you're responding to is not speculation. What you're doing is speculation. Rampant speculation. You're skeptical of a literal, straight answered wob because of...this? You want to dismiss wobs because it's ever so slightly possible(and in no way logically consistent) that a torn off piece of Odium's power, severely weakened, can co-opt another full Shard's investiture and then attack and pressure Harmony (2 shards!) all within 15 years? This is...out there. I'm really not sure what this is supposed to respond to. This is about Ruin's investiture being involved in Nightblood's creation...I agreed that it's obviously a form of corrupted investiture when Nightblood consumes (does his thiing)...not sure what else this wob is supposed to 'answer' to the three of us. Nightblood's creation is almost wholly unknown so saying Ruin or Endowment co-opted/corrupted another's investiture is unsupported at least. Or did you mean something else?

Yeah, sorry but it's just willful ignorance to say, "That being representing the red mist at the end of BoM? Totally could be Odium." I actually had this argument included in my reply but like you say, it's impossible to know if Odium gets free after book 5. I don't believe it for a second but I could see the argument being made that he's the big bad of the cosmere. Agreed though. @Necessary Eagle pointed out that it's wob'd to be Shard specific, but you're right that this is a form of corrupted investiture that I didn't remember.

Fair enough. I don't agree, mostly because of technicalities (amount of eye shadow covering the eyelid) that could just be liberties taken on the interpretation. Yeah, certainly more than enough time, which is why I lean toward younger (ha!) ages for the heralds. For the bolded part, are you saying you think desolations could have extended a century or two? That seems overly long to me. Nohadon's vision had 9 out of 10 people dead and the world destroyed in a decade, with Nohadon not even knowing anyone who could write anymore (and presumably read). Ten years would be the upper bound on desolation lengths to me. Roshar myths exaggerate so much but I envision much smaller timelines. I have no idea why you would quote so many wobs saying they're in world depictions. I agreed with that point in my post. What I was rebutting is your generalization that they "all look Alethi" which is clearly wrong, in-book or in the endpages. Quote? I remember Amaram and Taln but don't recall where you're pulling this from. This is backwards to me anyways. Jezrien looks Alethi, which would fit with cultural assumptions of anyone not scholarly. Taln isn't depicted in the endpages, but it makes sense that anyone would be surprised a herald is darkeyed (when not holding an honorblade). Quote? I don't believe this at all. Shalash is dark skinned, just like the artwork, but someone like Taln is the full blown ebony Makabaki; the in book descriptions (which show how the artwork is far more accurate than you're giving credit) back this up. Besides, no one is claiming these are exact, but they're far more accurate than when you said: This is confusing because the artwork ISN'T selective of a specific regional culture or race. No one would look at Shalash and Ishar and go, "totally the same nationality." The most important thing I'm trying to hammer on is: The artwork matches their in-book descriptions. Until that is refuted, the pictures can be considered somewhat accurate. Just not exact about specific details. Taln isn't depicted in the endpages. The artwork DOES contradict Alethi culture, you're citing things about Shalash I don't recall. Basically, they don't appear Alethi and I have no clue how you ever thought that. So they aren't represented by cultural washing like Jesus being white. I just don't see where you're coming from with any of your arguments.

That wasn't your point though...and now you're just moving goalposts. No, we don't know the technical aspects of how a shard tweaks another's for their benefit. But we do have literal wobs stating that the color red is representative of this happening.

Maybe this will help, Karger. SPOILERS FOR MISTBORN ERA 2 (just assume era 1 as well) AKA WAX AND WAYNE

The cosmere timeline is completely wonky and much shorter than what the legends of Roshar would have you think. There was only one lifetime between the exodus from Ashynn and the heralds approaching Honor to form the Oathpact. There is a ton of stuff that has to happen between those events: arrival and settlement, dissatisfaction with just Shinovar, skirmishes and then war break out, Odium approaches and gifts the Fused their ability, more fighting until humans realize what they're against and form the Oathpact...one lifetime. Then there are ~20-25 desolations in total with the last few occurring with the last few occurring in quick succession. I tend to think times got shorter and even desolation 15 or so only had a handful of years between them. All that being said, yes, I think you're probably closer to the correct age, but I'm guessing that to be the upper bound. Hard to say really, there's so much we don't know. So you see those endpapers and go, "Yeah, Ishar and Shalash totally look Alethi." ??? Even their in book descriptions match closer to the endpapers than, "all appear primarily Alethi." We know Shalash has Shin eyes and Vedel doesn't appear to have epicanthic folds either. Ishar looks about as white as they come (So Shin or west coast Roshar). You are correct that they're in world depictions, but they're more accurate than you seem to give credit. You can stick with your pessimism at their accuracy (I mean, you're not really wrong about them being depictions), but we have Shalash's and Jezrien's descriptions and the in world art seems quite the likeness. Saying they all appear Alethi is tantamount to wearing blinders and ignoring available info.

The Heralds are super old but closer to about 5000 years old. The shattering took place about 10,000 years ago and BS has given cosmere timeline estimates as low as 6000 years since the shattering (though several more that seem to suggest he's settling around a 10,000 year arc). There are many quotes if you look through #chronology on Arcanum, but here's just one. Do you have the Oathbringer hardback? It's only four but they're very detailed in world depictions of Vedel, Ishar, Jez, and Ash. I believe they're accurate.

That would positively fill them with Dredd.

Maybe not my one thing, but I'd love to see this play out with Szeth, his spren, and Nightblood. NB: Destroy him! Destroy evil! Spren: We don't have the statutory papers signed. NB: But look at him, he's hurting people. That's evil. Spren: That would be breaking the law, which is also evil. NB: Shashara taught me to recognize evil, we should kill him. Szeth: Let's go find Dalinar...

Both! When the text says, "boss" it's supposed to say box. At least that's how the audio came off to me. DragonCon Prologue

Each book contains a prologue that depicts the night the assassin in white killed Gavilar, but from a different viewpoint. This is the fourth prologue, or the prologue of the fourth book; it's Navani's point of view this time.

I quoted that for him higher up in the thread. He's intent on his own whims.

That makes very little sense to me. I'm going to guess you're easl and try to parse it the best I can. I think there's just a misunderstanding of what is meant by corrupted. By flavor, do you mean investiture of different Shards? Corrupted/co-opted investiture is when a Shard tries to interfere/change/take control of another Shards investiture; tweak it, so to speak. It isn't just one Shard's investiture being in close proximity/contact with another. Spren are a mixture of honor and cultivation, that doesn't mean they're corrupted. "Our"? "Us?" Do you mean cosmere souls? Ati and Leras worked together to create people, but neither tried to corrupt or co-opt the other's investiture; they worked together so the people of Scadrial aren't corrupted. Most things in the Cosmere are definitely not corrupted. I don't personally believe silver's special properties stem from antibacterial properties. We have no idea what BS's plans for silver are Cosmere wide. Searching silver in the Arcanum will show you that BS rafo's everything to do with silver. Yes, I literally answered your first question of what he meant by corrupted investiture.

It appears they are indeed co-opted/corrupted. As for @Karger, I believe he's referring to the red eyes.

@Weltall answered pretty thoroughly. I'd just point out that it's not something to look into too deeply. This quote is relevant to your lighteyes/race question:

That's exactly what it's doing. Thanks. I disabled it. I'll try to find some threads to engage in and see if it worked.

If you look at my last couple posts, for some reason quotes are doing weird things that has never happened before. After the first time, I was careful to check and make sure I wasn't doing anything stupid like quoting inside of a quote box, but the result looks as such. The weirdest thing is that one of the quotes went in fine and frankly I'm just confused. The ideal avenue of deduction would be to disable my chrome extensions and re-enable them one by one to see if that's the problem, but is there a place on the forums I can spam a few posts to try and weed through the problem? Also, after I post I can't interact with the buttons below my post. i.e. edit, options etc.

There's a lot of mixing statements and questions so if any remain, just restate them. There could be an argument that BAM displays Bondsmith-type abilities but I think BS is pretty clear. He also says it right off. The hedging and fuzziness stem from trying to place Yelignar or Ashartmarn into an order Some of my deductions are likely to change as we gain more clarity on Ashyn, Roshar and Braize histories. and So humans destroyed Ashyn (I think because of Odium's influence). Humans fled to Roshar and were accepted by Honor (and likely Cultivation) who ordered the Singers to do so too. Sometime in here, H, C, and spren started paying more attention/growing closer with the humans. "For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind." Odium had followed the humans and as they expanded out from Shinovar, Odium approached some very angry Singers and gave them the chance to be reborn when they die, thus giving them revenge. Humans then went to Honor and proposed the Oathpact because the angry Singers would. not. go. away. Thus began the cycle of desolations with Humans and Honor (and likely Cultivation) vs Singers and Odium. BS has kept tight-lipped about the specifics of what went down. We'll have to wait a while before we get any more details about the past. A good chunk of what you're asking probably won't be solidified until the back five.

It doesn't really affect your summarizing of the theory, but just wanted to point out that Odium arrived last. Spoilered for length.

You are absolutely correct. Taldain is my current head-canon place-holder and I shouldn't have stated it as fact. I'll edit soon. Why would anyone's perception not count? I'm not sure why you're trying to delineate something like that; it's not arbitrary because nobody is deciding anything about restricting opinions. Every sentient being affects the growth and boundaries of shadesmar, even lower life forms. It is a world affected by everything that has a modicum of thought; that's why it's called the Cognitive Realm. I've shortened the quote for brevity, but there is a link at the bottom. I would maybe suggest hitting up https://wob.coppermind.net/ for querying and read through Brandon's explanations on the CR, they are quite extensive. That could possibly help answer some of your questions or expand your understanding of the CR.

Yes. Have you seen the back endpaper of Way of Kings? That's what the Expanses are...other Cosmere worlds. To travel west from Alaska to Russia would mean walking to the border of the Cognitive, transitioning back to the physical, and continuing west (this isn't very practical as it is much more difficult to get back to the physical). Densities is Sel, Vapors is Scadrial, Broken Sky is Taldain etc. The people, that's how the CR works. The void of space isn't represented because there are no minds occupying it. It's not really contradictory. The CR isn't the physical realm, it's shaped by minds. Completely created by perception and thought. It's absolutely flat, but 3D, because that's how our minds perceive reality. Think of the minds like a projector. The image projected is flat, even if it's a globe.