IronBars

Dalinar was on his 3rd after WoR i thought ? And fourth was in OB then ? Isn't there a WoB post WoR saying they were all on 3 except shallan was one ahead ? That would make Dalinar on his fourth after OB ? Or am i getting mixed up ?

Ya but kaladin knows the words for the fourth ideal, in a year you would imagine he would of reconciled things to the point he could swear it, least in my opinion, Dalinar for instance is on his 4th ideal already, in 6months ? Not a stretch to say he would be on his 5th after a year gap, Szeth on his 4th after few months (will most likely need to choose a different 4th ideal, i know) Shallan in a year surely of coming to terms with her 4th truth etc, while expecting them all to of progressed is probably to much, expecting none to of progressed is not believable

Ya that makes sense, once the characters don't remain stagnant though, thats my main worry with time skips

Ya thats all true in a manner, but its a bit of a stretch to say nothing happens in that year skip that could cause any of what you said, if as you imply nothing of significance happens in that year then there is no point in the time skip to begin with is there ? Can't skip a year and the characters not of changed atal,

I don't like the idea of her having a child during the time skip, honestly i don't even think that makes sense to happen. Does anyone know why there is an in world time skip of a year ? I mean by the time a year passes, surely the likes of kaladin will be on 4th/5th ideal,shallan surely would of sorted herself out a bit, completed her mission regards sja anat, Dalinar be surely on 5th ideal, Adolin (if he is gonna) should of revived maya, Renarins role should of got clarity, bridge 4 should have more radiants, as well as other radiants showing up, list goes on and on.... So why we gonna miss all that, instead of seeing it as it happens?

To be honest the way the wedding was just thrown in at the end screams of just being bad writing, technically they hadn't even been engaged, just betrothed, which isn't the same thing atal. Couple that to the point Adolin thought she wanted Kaladin toward the end it just all seemed rushed. Add to that, that between book 3 and book 4 there is an in world time skip of 1 year, and to me at least it comes across that the whole thing was an after thought and just thrown in for the sake of it.

As someone else said the Everstorm is the means by which Odium countered what Melishi did to the original singers. As for sja anat its still supposition that she can corrupt bondable spren. Why did Odium wait ? In my opinion he was waiting until he had a champion who couldnt be defeated, ie the blacktorn. He groomed Dalinar from an early age, to prepare him for his role. Unfortunately for Odium, Cultivation intervened and ruined that

Renarin is about as unreliable a narrator as Shallan is, and id imagine glys would lie if he was a true odium spren ie the ones the listeners use to create nightform. I agree what you say is most likely what happened but shouldn't be treated as fact when at this point it is just supposition and could go either way. Again thats just supposition at this point, coppernind also calls Renarin a truthwatcher which he most certainly isn't at this point.

Isn't that assuming glys is a corrupted spren in the first place ? Which we don't know for sure ? All spren corrupted by sja anat are recognizable for the spren they used be, when jasnah confronts renarin about glys she has a picture of what the real truthwatcher spren should look like, and doesn't remark on any simularities or even question that the spren just seems "off", she knows 100% its the wrong spren. Couldnt glys be the type of spren the parshendi use to make nightform (least i think its nightform, dont have the book to hand) Isn't it just an assumption sja anat learned to corrupt bond spren ? Or have i missed something ?

Sja- anat didn't corrupt glys though, right ? Sja-anat can only corrupt "lesser" spren, no ? Or did i misread that ?

@Philomath i did say very similiar in one of the threads, can't remember which one, but got shot down by people saying the nahel bond would have to of been formed in order to revive maya. Personally i hope maya isn't revived, i don't partocularily like that arc, might like it more if it wasn't another Kholin being the one to do it, My personal favourite theory at the moment is my own that Adolin becomes Odiums new champion, but most don't seem to like that one, but i think it has a certain symmetry to it. And personally i can see how it could happen.

Dalinar was only able to recieve tbe visions/bond the stormfather because of what cultivation did, she removed Odiums influence on him.

Was looking at Szeth's fourth ideal there; "I will cleanse the Shin of their false leaders, so long as Dalinar Kholin agrees" Is that ideal still fulfilled if Dalinar disagrees ? And Szeth can move on to the fifth ideal ? Or does Szeth need to find something else to swear the fourth ideal to ? To replace that one ?

@StrikerEZ Thanks i guess for taking the time to read through all the pages of this thread. Everyone has there own equally valid opinion on aspects of OB and on OB as a book, whether you or anyone agrees or disagrees is neither good or bad. My opinion is my opinion and i don't need to budge on it as you put it, just because someone else thinks/reads/interprets something different to me. No ones opinion is more valid than my own, and my opinion isn't more valid than anyone else's, group consenus on a topic isn't a valid reason for changing ones opinion. I can explain each opinion i expressed if you want to discuss it, you don't need to agree with them though. As for Dalinar, i find it strange so many think all that was taken from him was "some memories" as you put it, maybe im wrong but seems to me alot more than that was taken. No need to get mad either, just a difference of opinion.

They are already allies so a political marriage doesn't really make much sense and isnt necessary.

Doesn't is say somewhere that balat stopped doing that ? Because of the girl hes engaged to or something ? Sorry dont have my book to hand for reference

No at @GarrethGrey my initial point was on how people gloss over Adolins childhood, even tho evidence to support it wasnt a good one, and how people assume Shallans was bad pre her mothers death even though no evidence of that. Was said in reply to several making a comparison, people just missed tbe point and focused on the shallan part kd the post.

@Dreamstorm @RShara None of that is actually textually supported, its just supposition, the point in my original post was to show we have clear indicators Adolins childhood was not good, but people say he had a great life etc, we have an indication that shallans childhood pre her mothers death was ok/good, yet the consensus is Shallans life pre her mothers death was bad, Adolins still rosey. Everyone fixated on the shallan part rather then seeing i was saying one has evidence and is ignored (Adolins) and the other has evidence and is disregarded (shallans)

That makes no sense to me. Just cos her mothers lover thought Shallan should die her mother was gonna kill her ? Seriously ? That makes absolutely no sense. Its not reasonable to infer Lin had any issues pre Shallans mothers death Again just because her mother had a "lover" you cant say that there was fighting in the household etc, thats assuming a lot, the fact we don't see anything like that pre Shallans mothers death is very telling imo, if was something to see don't you think would of seen it in Shallans flashback book ? The fact we don't indicates there was nothing to see imo. In the paragraph previous to this you say how her parents fought alot, which affected Shallan, the paragraph above you say parents hid it from the kids, thats a pretty big contradiction, it can't be both.

As i said in my post, i meant pre shallans mothers death. OB - chapter 25 the scene in the theatre - she says " too many memories of her father, and of her mother, who had loved telling her stories. She tried to banish those memories, but they wouldn't go" That quote says she had a mother who loved telling her stories, indicating she loved and spent time with Shallan. So assuming pre Shallans mothers murder her childhood was bad doesn't make sense. i personally believe what @Calderis referenced here: All began post shallans mothers death. Honestly i had the opposite interpretation, i think those are true memories, and don't combine with the lie she has made her life into, thus wants them gone because will unravel those lies. I could be completly wrong but i genuienly think the Shallan we always see is just a mask, same as veil and same with radiant, Her mother trying to kill her, (supposedly because she was a skybreaker) then no one attempting to kill her later on, when its not like her father hid her existance/faked her death etc, just doesn't add up. Wouldn't surprise me one bit if her mother had in fact not been trying to kill her atal (no basis for this, just wouldn't surprise me)

I think all can agree Dalinar was essentially an absentee father for most of Adolin/Renarins lives, this circumstance usually results in one of two outcomes, resentment toward the father or hero worship. Its evident Adolin follows the hero worship model regards Dalinar, that said i think that explains why Adolin doesn't see the faults in Dalinar and doesn't remark on it etc hes essentially blind to it, in some ways its just a coping mechanism, instead of seeing faults in Dalinar he assumes the faults are his and since he idealise's Dalinar just wants to strive to do better to try make him proud rather than get gloomy etc, its just a different form of coping then others we see in SA. Im curious if the people who downplay Adolins experiences think Renarin had a good/bad childhood ? There childhoods would of been extremely similiar. Regards Shallan, we don't know how she bonded pattern, just that it was before she killed her mother, so people assume her childhood was bad before that but in OB - chapter 25 the scene in the theatre - she says " too many memories of her father, and of her mother, who had loved telling her stories. She tried to banish those memories, but they wouldn't go" That doesn't make it seem like her childhood before she killed her mother was all that bad, but people assume it was. They assume it because they think it has to of been bad beforehand, but she had a mother who loved telling her stories, indicating she loved and spent time with Shallan, and a father who ruined himself to protect her, that doesn't sound like parents who are abusive etc imo. I mention this because of the assumptions, people assume Adolins childhood was ok, they assume Shallans was bad, but why ? From OB flashbacks its obvious Dalinar is a terrible parent, Adolin just deals with it by assuming the fault is his and instead of getting depressed trys harder, that is as much a coping mechanism as Shallan burying the truth, but people don't seem to see that. We have evidence Dalinar was a horrible parent, we have evidence Shallan life pre her mothers death wasnt bad, yet somehow Adolins childhood was fine, Shallans (pre mothers death) still bad , it seems the opposite assumptions should of been made to me. Kinda repeated myself at times there apologies.

@Calderis Doesn't Pattern repeatedly say he was drawn to her because of her deep lies though? That kinda runs contrary to the quote you just posted. Also pattern says if she killed him they would just send another cryptic for her to bond instead, from that i think can assume theres alot more going on then readers have seen.

Adolin certainly has blinkers on with regards how he views Dalinar, however im hopeful the revelation about Evi's death is going to be the straw that breaks the camels back, an opens Adolins eyes. That would do a great deal for Adolins character, and once the flood gates are open i can see it leading to everything you just said he wasn't in regards becoming Odiums new champion, as i said it has symmetry, and would make alot of narrative sense.

Adolin should have a massive reaction to this, if your right and its swept under the rug so to speak i would be massively disappointed. Actually i had the thought that this news breaks Adolin completly, and from it Odium gains his new champion, there would be a certain symmetry to this happening. Dalinar being the original chosen champion, and his son becoming said champion because of Dalinars own lies. There is alot of ways the revelation of Evis death/cover up could go, i like the one above, but it has to go somewhere imo.

I imagine the revelation Dalinar killed Adolins mother, hid the truth, covered it all up, lied for however many years, will affect there relationship much more, compared to that Adolin killing Sadeas should be like a drop of water falling in n ocean.