mdross81

Interesting questions posed here. I think perhaps a partial answer is that it wasn’t merely stabbing Jezrien with a Raysium dagger that interrupted the return-to-Braize mechanic of the Oathpact. Rather, it seems to have been the trapping of his soul in the gemstone that caused it. This is assuming that Kalak’s explanation in the epigraphs from Part 4 of RoW is correct. From the chapter 92 epigraph: And according to Raboniel, Odium’s forces didn’t know about the possibility of trapping a Herald’s soul like this until BAM was captured. From RoW chapter 84: And as you note, for the 4500 years after the abandonment of the Oathpact, Odium’s forces were stuck on Braize. A little bit after the quote above, Raboniel also notes that “Raysium is exceptionally difficult to obtain.” All of that said, I get your broader point that, with access to Shardic levels of knowledge it seems like Odium could have figured this out sooner.

Yeah, I was watching the stream. That’s a nice WoB via avoidance you got there @LewsTherinTelescope I was even hanging around in Discord last night after the stream and saw you mention you’d seen something about this excerpt in the forums. But I had totally forgotten that I had even written this post. Thanks for the shout out though.

See, I think maybe it’s evidence of Autonomy on both worlds. I think maybe with Taln holding out for so long Rayse got desperate and maybe sought, or at the very least accepted, some help with his situation. So Axindweth may have been recruited by Trell/the Set but working on Odium’s behalf as well.

I'm willing to bet the Set may have been involved even earlier than this, but we get a couple of hints as to the timeframes for when Edwarn and Miles first got involved. Here's Miles from AoL chapter 17 (which takes place in Scadrian year 341): Can't say for certain that he fell under Trell's influence at the same time, but supposing he did that would put it in 331. That's around the same time that Edwarn went into hermit mode for a decade. Here's Wax confronting Mr. Suit in the AoL Epilogue: That faked death occurred in 340, so going back a decade gives us the Scadrian year 330. So that's 10-11 Scadrian years ago. Converting between Scadrian's Earth-like days and years to Roshar's 20-hour days and 500-day years, that would be between around 8.7 and 9.6 Rosharan years. I believe that Brandon has said that all of MB Era 2 takes place in the 10-15 year time gap between the front and back half of SA. Assuming that the contest of champions (which is slated to occur around mid 1175 on Roshar) is roughly the end of the front half, then Miles began to plan the train robbery and Edwarn went hermitlike around late 1165 to late 1166 on Roshar. That's somewhat intriguing because a number of big things happen on Roshar around that same timeframe: Shallan starting to bond Testment, Szeth being named Truthless, first contact between the listeners and the Alethi, and Axindweth giving Ulim to Venli.

Not much to go on, I’m afraid. Here’s the passage:

Phendorana. I know we don’t get a lot of her. But Teft is my boy. And she’s got this super kind - yet stern - matronly vibe that I just dig. Second place is a tie between Shalllan and Adolin.

Thanks as always for the shout out @LewsTherinTelescope. Not sure if your response to my post was the first time you explained your take on the etymology of BAM, but I know you mentioned it there. And, more germane to @Mzuka’s theory, you even speculated in that thread that BAM may have been like the Sibling once:

Taravangian definitely created the Diagram after Gavilar died. Cultivation tells Dalinar when he visits that it’s the first time in centuries she has come herself to personally speak with a human. So Taravangian’s visit had to be after Dalinar’s (which was after Gavilar died) because it was only with Cultivation’s boon that Taravangian was able to create the Diagram. So the Diagram could not have sent agents to speak with a former bearer during the time when Gavilar held his meetings (only one of which was attended by Nale, I believe).

Necro-ing this topic in light of a WoB from the 6/16/22 spoiler stream: Barring any squirrelyness here about it being Azure/Zahel instead of Vasher/Vivenna, this WoB eliminates the first two possibilities that came to my mind about who the Diagram interviewed. I believe that the only other former bearer we’ve seen on-screen is Nale. I can’t put my finger on why but for some reason it still just seems unlikely to me that Nale was the source of the info. This WoB could lend some support to the theory that the “criminal” that Azure is chasing is not Nightblood or Vasher but someone else who held Nightblood and/or brought NB to Roshar. Or perhaps the former bearer Taravangian mentioned is the Nightwatcher? Or some as yet unknown person who took the Nightwatcher up on the offer she made to Dalinar of “A sword that bleeds darkness and cannot be defeated.”

This is the best interpretation I’ve seen of how the the weakened Oathpact and the Everstorm intersect. I’m curious what you think of Ishar’s plan to “reset the Oathpact.” Seems like, under your interpretation, “resetting” would have to include finding a way to seal away or get rid of the portion of the Everstorm that has crossed into the Physical Realm on Roshar. Edited to add additional question for @Child of Hodor I agree that no Herald needed to break to allow the Fused to come to Roshar via the Everstorm. But what are we to make of Levian being brought back “the old way,” (i.e. directly by Odium) in RoW 116? I’m your view, would a Herald have needed to break to allow for that? Because that was the method that the Oathpact prevented from happening.

Yeah, you’re not wrong on any of these points about the “Stormfather” and Gavilar doing things without a bond, that we only ever saw Dalinar and the Stormfather do post-bonding. I don’t have any great explanations. Could be that it’s possible to develop a sufficient Connection even without a bond. Like maybe Dalinar could have gone in and out of visions at will, had mental conversations, and allowed the Stormfather to see into buildings before bonding him. But because he was approaching Radiance and was able to bond the Stormfather early in the process, we never got to see that. Or maybe after getting burned by Gavilar, the SF just decided not to allow any of those more advanced features until he saw whether a bond was feasible.

I’ve enjoyed this thread a lot, but I must admit I’ve come down on the side of it actually being the Stormfather. I can’t imagine any other entity that could both present the visions and allow for starting/stopping them at will without a highstorm. And it seems like the SF and Gavilar continue the same conversation both in and then out of the vision so I don’t think we’re dealing with two different entities. The italics speech is consistent with the way SF speaks directly into Dalinar’s mind. And the switch to small caps after Gavilar shows his true colors, to me, represents the SF pulling away from Gavilar and reverting to speaking the way he speaks to every other character (which includes Kal, Venli, Eshonai, Syl, Lopen, and Navani and the wedding guests). Appearing as a shimmering figure has happened with Dalinar, both in the visions and at least once in the physical realm (RoW 107: The Stormfather appeared beside him, moving in the air alongside Dalinar—a rare occurrence. The Stormfather never had features. Merely a vague impression of a figure the same size as Dalinar, yet extending into infinity.) The making a new Herald thing is weird, but explainable. Either as the SF just letting Gavilar think that was the plan, while actually planning to make Gavilar a Bondsmith and then having Gavilar make new Heralds. Or as the SF trying something other than bonding a human as a first attempt given he doesn’t seem too keen to be bonded. It makes sense to me that the SF would notice a Herald dying, either because he’s a remnant of Honor who was a party to the Oathpact, or because - as evidenced by the frost - transporting a Herald to Braize involves a significant amount of Stormlight used very quickly, and that Light would come through the storm or the SF. To the extent we see a different demeanor later with Dalinar, I think that is just the SF taking a different approach after things didn’t work out with Gavilar. The Stormfather works very hard to slow roll explanations - particularly controversial ones - with Dalinar. He likely knows that Dalinar would have been raised in the same Vorin-steeped culture that ultimately made Gavilar unsuitable and wants to take things slower with reveals that challenge Vorin orthodoxy. Remember also that Gavilar was working a number of different angles to find out information though, so he may have figured out more on his own that the SF then begrudgingly confirmed. I’m not overly concerned by the line about not trying again with a Kholin because desperate times call for desperate measures. The biggest thing that bothers me if this was the SF is the seeming lie to Dalinar in OB 38 when he says that in the millennia since Aharietiam none of the other nine Heralds have died and returned to Damnation. But he’s generally been reticent to share info about the Heralds for whatever reason. And may have just decided that it didn’t matter anyway since the True Desolation and the Everstorm had now come. So while I felt something off on my initial read, and I kinda wanted this to be another situation like Chana Davar (which I think @teknopathetic absolutely nailed), cards on the table: I think it is the SF. I’ve got a open mind about this though if y’all think I missed something or my analysis is off.

As I’ve thought about it more, I’ve come up with a possible explanation for the ripple of Stormlight through the SF when the Herald dies (though it’s based on this entity actually being the SF). Could be that the Herald’s soul is essentially Lashed to Braize when they die (Spiritual Adhesion?). Whatever the mechanics, it seems plausible enough that transporting the Herald’s soul to Braize requires the use of a large amount of Stormlight very quickly and the Stormlight comes from the storm, or from the Spiritual Realm via the storm/SF. Alternatively, we see an effect on the SF simply because he is a remnant of Honor who was a party to the Oathpact. This would explain the frost because whenever we see it, it seems to accompany the use of a large amount of Stormlight very quickly. One of these days we’ll get specifics on the mechanics of the Oathpact right?

No other scenes linking frost to the Stormfather. In addition to the times when Ideals are sworn and when Ishar makes the glyph, here are the other mentions of frost: Szeth’s clothes are frosted twice and the air is frosted once in the WoK prologue - each time it’s when he Lashes something (himself, the big chunk of wall, the balcony) WoK 56 - Oathbringer appears in Dalinar’s hand “steaming and frosted” WoK 59: first time Kal intentionally breathes in Stormlight from a sphere leaves his fingers crispy with frost: then frost crystallizes on his arm when he infuses a stone and sticks it to the wall WoK 62: frost crystallized on Kal’s arm as he uses Stormlight to heal an arrow wound OB 60 - Kal comes down out of flying in the highstorm crusted in frost (this one could be storm or just temperature related) RoW 6 - frost crackles on Kal’s uniform as he uses a great deal of Stormlight to heal a wound during a fight with Leshwi RoW I-4 - Moash is practicing with Jezrien’s Honorblade and thinks it’s inferior to live Shardblades because “It couldn’t change shape, and cost far more Stormlight to use, often crusting his clothing with frost when he used it too quickly.” Someone on Discord said it’s just Stormlight, and I agree that each instance seems to involve large amounts of Stormlight used very quickly. And in every instance other than the one in the prologue I get how the Stormlight is being used. I’m still left wondering why a Herald dying would cause a large amount of Stormlight to ripple through the Stormfather.

So this is a little bit of a tangent, perhaps, but I think this is probably as good a place as any to discuss. It’s about the bit in the prologue when the Herald dies: It’s the frost that got me thinking about where else we’d seen that. We’ve seen frost appear a number of different times throughout the series. It crops up when Szeth and Kal are using Lashings. Dalinar’s Blade is noted to be frosted once when he summons it in WoK. But the times I want to focus on are when we see frost appear while Radiants are swearing an Ideal. Specifically, we see frosted Windrunner glyphs appear for Kal’s third Ideal (WoR 84), Lopen’s second (OB 121), and Huio’s third (DS 18). There is also a burst of frost and power around Lopen when he swears his third Ideal in the Dawnshard prologue. So what’s going on here? Well, everybody’s favorite mad god-king has the explanation, I think. From RoW 111: So Ishar is telling us that when a Radiant swears an Ideal, they touch the Spiritual Realm and that’s also when we see the frost appear. Seems to me, given the frost in the prologue, that there is likely something similar going on mechanics-wise when a Herald dies (and presumably is returned to Braize). This perhaps explains Ishar and Nale’s misguided belief that Radiants swearing Ideals would potentially allow the Fused to return. From Edgedancer, chapter 9: And here’s Szeth describing it in OB 90: Mraize says something similar in his letter to Shallan in OB 40: And lastly, here’s Nale in RoW 77 responding to Venli’s suggestion that the Heralds’ actions had allowed Ulim to get to Roshar: Assuming that Nale is, in this last one, talking about the same concerns relating to Radiants, what I still don’t get is why a Radiant swearing an Ideal and touching the Spiritual Realm would create a Connection between Braize and Roshar. But I guess I just wanted to point out that the frost appearing in both cases seems to suggest that there may be some kind of similar underlying mechanics going on when the Heralds travel between Roshar and Braize, and when Radiants swear Ideals. The last thing I wanted to mention here, since Ishar features prominently in this thread, is that the one other time we see a frosted glyph, it’s Ishar’s doing. From RoW 98: Make of that what you will.