Ymawgat

1: Venli could have been led to believe that Eshonai was dead when she wasn't, Eshonai could have had povs throughout OB as a cognitive shadow. However you spin it Eshonai didn't need to be perma-killed in order for Venli to have a redemption arc. 2: Venli lost Damid too, along with everyone she'd ever known. Yes Eshonai was her conscience, but Venli would have still had grief, and therefore would have still had a reason to be unhappy with Odium and the fused.

There's no reason that both Eshonai and Venli couldn't have become radiants or at least just been alive and on the good side. Venli having a redemption arc without becoming a radiant actually makes more sense that for her character, seeing that seeking redemption purely to become a surgebinder is something it's very easy to see Venli doing.

Ok so I agree with a lot of what your saying in that post, and it's nice to see another view on Venli I hadn't read before, but I don't really get this argument because like, couldn't the exact same argument be levelled at Kaladin? He's an incredibly "ideal" Windrunner, and his main too flaws (so far) are: A: his hatred of the lighteyes, which is ultimately a pretty reasonable reaction to all the stuff that's been done to him, and is something he's overcoming. B: he literally cares too much. his problems with the fourth ideal stem from him not being able to protect everyone, like you can and should look at this in a lot of different ways but like at the end of the day Brandon decided to write that one of his biggest problems was an excess of compassion.

Thanks! Yeah I can how Amaram's characterisation in OB could be frustrating.

Yeah I conceded some of these points earlier. I highly recommend you look through the rest of the thread. My problem isn't with Venli's motivations though, it's with the fact that we're supposed to be ok with her replacing Eshonai when Brandon would never have replaced Kaladin with a conveniently remorseful Amaram.

Ok sorry then. I still can't see the point of Venli's arc if Eshonai isn't coming back, but like you said, re-reading Oathbringer my help give perspective.

Again, how Venli feels isn't relevant to my complaints. Please reread my last comment in regards to this. Writing that isn't compelling or interesting doesn't suddenly become compelling/interesting when I take the view that it was always going to be written like that. This isn't evidence per say, but Kaladin, Shallan, and Dalinar's arcs set up the implication that the series (like I said earlier) is about recovery and hope/optimism. When the same story isn't offered to another character who's depicted as being as important as them (has pov's, will have flashback book) I have every right to be disappointed.

I've already provided a quote that proves Venli knew what Stormform would do to Eshonai specifically. If you think there is evidence in OB that disproves this then please share I guess? Again, like, I don't hate her for her actions, I hate her because Brandon Sanderson wants me to be ok with her replacing Eshonai. The reason I point to the crazy bad stuff she's done is that I don't understand why when Amaram and Sadeas hurt Kaladin, he gets a recovery arc and they die, whilst when Venli's actions hurt Eshonai (even if you won't accept that Venli knowingly hurt Eshonai, you have to concede she risked the destruction of her people for her own ambition), Eshonai dies meaninglessly and Venli gets a redemption arc. That doesn't make sense to me. I don't see how that's meant to be a compelling story. Ok but here's the thing: Venli is stealing Eshonai's arc big time. The sequence used to go Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Eshonai, Szeth, but now goes Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Eshonai/Venli, Szeth. The only narrative justification for Eshonai's death is so that Venli can become a radiant. I agree that Venli isn't "stealing" anything from Eshonai in the fiction of the books/in universe, but she super is stealing Eshonai's role and story from a narrative perspective: Eshonai is now dead and isn't going to ever have her own radiant arc, and directly because of this Venli gets radiant and redemption arcs. It's dumb and I fundamentally can't see the point of writing that.

Ok I'm gonna answer this first because I think it's more relevant to my comment: I'm not saying Venli doesn't "deserve" to be redeemed. What I'm saying is that if the fact that she's alive and has a nahel bond narratively requires that Eshonai has to be dead, then I hate her for that. It's not about morality, it's simply the fact that I greatly prefer Eshonai over Venli, and that if Venli can hurt her sister and then move on to the a road to recovery of recovery and redemption, while Eshonai remains dead (on top of having being mind controlled for the last weeks of her life), then I can't help but at least strongly dislike Venli, regardless of how morally good and remorseful Venli currently is. Words of Radiance, Eshonai's third chapter, 5 pages in (I don't know the exact page number on all copies, but in my copy that is split between two parts it's on page 138): The reason I say that is that she only tried to be a good person after meeting Timbre, and after seeing Dalinar's redemption arc: she doesn't become a good person purely because it's the right thing to do and for someone else, she does it specifically to seek redemption. It's is still admirable, but it fundamentally isn't the same thing as what Dalinar did, at least in my opinion. Ok yeah sorry I misremembered the text. But this doesn't really change that I would much rather just have Eshonai back, and the fact that we're meant to be happy with Venli just, inheriting her story, especially in a book series that is ultimately about recovery and optimism, makes me super pissed off.

Sure, but that in and of itself doesn't make me like her. If we had had four Evi PoV chapters that showed us that she would be an absolutely amazing bondsmith/how cool she was firsthand, that Dalinar was 100% planning to kill her - purely for his own ambition and greed, and that Dalinar only tried to become a good person when he knew for certain that atonement was actually possible (and that he'd get a nahel bond out of it).... .....then I don't think I'd like Dalinar much either.

I don't really know you're really asking op, but I personally can't see Lyn's lines being interpreted any way other than that she dislikes gender roles, and I for one am super ready for the entire concept of gender to be torn down in Roshar in the coming books.

I super dislike Venli since reading Oathbringer. Pretty much every other character I can tolerate because I can clearly see their role in the story and the reasonings behind their actions, but I've ended up actively hate Venli, mainly because I think we're supposed to like her? Amaram and Sadeas are shown as irredeemable monsters so why are we asked to care about Venli, who's actions are as much if not more destructive and "evil"? Venli caused the deaths of almost all the Parshendi and kick started the 100th desolation all for her own personal gain, and at the end of Oathbringer she's handed a nahel bond and a chance at happiness. Add on to this that she's now taken the place of a much more interesting and likeable Willshaper character I just can't see how or why we're meant to like her?

THANK YOU!!!

@Calderis The quote is in the present tense, meaning this is the way things are, but might not have been how things always were. There could have very well been a perpendicularity before there was the Stormfather. Thank you. I still think this point is a bit fuzzy (like I feel like Honour would be more active if he was a full, intact CS rather than the equivalent of a hemalurgic spike) but I concede I'm probably wrong if the quote you're talking about actually exists.

That seems very speculative to me? You can have anger without angerspren, and High-storms without the Stormfather, so it's hard to see this evidence as conclusive. I'm going off a line in oathbringer that states Honour and the SF existed at the same time; the relevant part of the timeline isn't that fuzzy. My point is that the evidence that I just gave is stronger than our current knowledge of CSs and the idea that they can't be made out of someone who still exists. At least in my eyes. I've read most of the cosmere (aside from a couple of short stories) and I didn't get the same impression, at least not to the extent you seem to have. Could you please be more specific/provide links for your claims? There is the evidence I just provided: The stormfather is a CS and existed at the same time as Honour, therefore it makes more sense to assume our idea of CS was at least partially incorrect, than it does to make up a pretty complicated story about how the SF became a cognitive shadow, but was something else before that (since Brandon calls the SF a C.Shadow with much more consistency than he calls him a splinter). Yes, the SF is a CS of Honor. The SF existed before Honor died, but as a Splinter. When Honor died, the Splinter and the CS merged to become the SF we know now. And that's why defining the SF is can be fuzzy, because he's not really a Splinter, or a Sliver (technically wasn't a Sliver at all) any more. Ok sorry, that's a fair point and now that you mention it it does actually make my original theory a bit stronger if the Sibling isn't a Conitive shadow.