Diomedes

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  1. Sorry, I was referring to this theory: Or specifically to this post by @Rainier "I'd like to double-back to the idea that each Herald is associated with one of the Unmade. Let's start. Taln is exempt. He is the greatest and never broken. Odium has no hold on him and he is unrelated to the Unmade. Ishar, as patron of Bondsmiths and creator of the Oathpact, is connected to Ba-Ado-Mishram. Like Dalinar refilled the gemstones with stormlight so does BAM provide stormlight. Jezrien, as patron of Windrunners, is associated with Nergaoul and the Thrill. The blubbering mess he's reduced to is similar to what happens when the Thrill recedes. Nale, as patron and member of Skybreakers, is associated with Ashertmarnn. His lack of emotions are found in the wild and base emotions of The Heart of the Revel. Chanarach, as patron of Dustrbringers, is associated with Chemoarish because it's called the Dustmother. I've got nothing else. Vedel, as patron of Edgedancers, is associated with Re-Shephir, the Midnight Mother. As Vedel was known for the essence of Light, so is Re-Shephir made of blackness. Pailiah, as patron of Truthwatchers, has to be connected to Moelach. Her powers of foresight are corrupted and distributed as the soul splits in three. Shalash, as patron of Lightweavers, is associated with Sja-anat, Taker of Secrets. Where do you think those secrets Lightweavers tell go? They get taken in by Sja-anat. Battar, as patron of Elsecallers, is associated with Dai-gonarthis, mysterious and mythical. Kalak, as patron of the Willshapers, is associated with Yelig-nar who engages his host in a battle of wills over who will control the vessel and the power of the Unmade." Bo-Ado-Mishram was imprisoned by a Bondsmith, Melishi. Shallan said the Unmade at Urithiru was imprisoned by a Lightweaver (not a Bondsmith), an Order that knows this Unmade intimatly. Every Order could know one Unmade well and could thus imprison one Unmade. Bondsmiths Bo-Ado-Mishram, Lightweavers Re-Sephir (the Unmade at Urithiru). Or maybe each order knows two orders well and can imprison them (Lightweavers Re-Sephir and Sja-anat). Or an order can imprison one and one is it`s cryptonite, I am speculating here. What is clear however, that you need intimate knowledge of the Unmade to imprison them. Dalinar did imprison the Thrill not by being a Bondsmith but by being connected to the Thrill since his Youth. Now, the fact that no Windrunners were around would neatly explain why there was nobody, who could imprison it. Only they had intimate knowledge of it.
  2. Yes! I think he foresaw everything up to the present day, when he intervened on Ashyn. Whatever role he may have played there. On a different note, the Stonewards and Windrunners broke their Oath at Feverstone Keep, when "fighting was intense" hence the feeling of betrayal attributed to the Recreance. However, that means Feverstone Keep happened before Bo-Ado-Mishram was imprisoned and the Singers were stripped off their forms, because fighting was still very much going on. At least the Bondsmiths were still fighting after Feverstone Keep. Probably there were quite a few orders still fighting. This might have been said already elsewhere but I could not find it. How could the Singers even wage war in the false Desolation against Humans and Radiants without the Fused to guide them? I think they engaged in a nasty guerilla warfare using, perhaps, even terroristic methods. Thing is, this type of asymmetrical warfare quickly persuades the more powerful side that horrible means are necessary; Meaning: Killing noncombatants to weaken, to terrify the enemy or just because you hate those Parsh sooo much. I imagine a large, genocidal massacre had happened before Feverstone Keep, Stonewards and Windrunners had helped, without knowing it, to commit it. This triggered the Oathbreaking of the two orders. The other orders carried on, until something else happened. However, they succeded in binding Bo-Ado-Mishram. This would explain why the Thrill was not imprisoned, the Windrunners were no longer around to do it.
  3. Yes, obviously the meaning of the words is equally important, if not more so. But, it is the act of speaking the oaths (and mean the words you say) that grants you powers. In WoR Syl could not connect to Kaladin, until he had spoken the oath. He has to speak the Words, even though he is tired and beaten up and can hardly speak. He clearly does have the intention behind those words before he speaks them. This absolute necessity to speak the words almost gets him killed by Moash and friends. Lift is a bit of a exception due to her connection to Cultivation.
  4. I think that`s exactly, what happened. It is an act of speech, saying the words of the oath, which creates the bond in the first place. Saying specific words would also break the bond. According to my theory it would be along these lines: "I am a flawed human led by passions. Men cannot and should not speak oaths. Therefore, I renounce all my oaths." His agenda is certainly flawed. But Brandon seems intended to dismantle these categories of Evil and Good and wants to show us things are a little bit more complicated. Honor is not necessarily good, Odium ( Passion) not necessarily evil. The Listeners are fighting a war of Liberation from slavery. Isn`t helping them good? The Alethi are slavemasters wanting to uphold an (uh?) unhumane system of exploitation. They are just using every power that is offering them the means to fight this war, which happens to be Odium and his voidspren.
  5. There is some strong evidence pointing towards Gavilar`s machiavellian nature changing in the last few years of his life. He began reading the Way of Kings, Sadeas said he was getting "weak", Jasnah reconnected to her father in these last years. He started to get visions. I think the Stormfather bestowes them according to Honor`s instructions only to those, who are somewhat worthy of them. This is probably the reason why Gavilar thought Restares, a fellow Son of Honor, intended to murder him. He was deviating from the true path of the Sons of Honor. He couldn`t do what "needed to be done". Maybe there was an argument between Restares and Gavilar prior to that fateful night? My guess on the identity of Restares is him being in some high up position of the Vorin church. Their religiosity is what ties Gavilar, Amaram and Aesuadan together and them wanting to restore the classical strength of the church. It only makes sense if a powerful Ardent would be involved in their group, maybe even leading them after Gavilar died. It is very likely that Restares will be a major villain in the next books. Maybe he will use the power of the vorin church to scheme with Ialai Sadeas against House Kholin. Dalinar`s hereticism already enraged the Ardentia aganist him. They will only need a little push...
  6. @AxeliustheGreatI wrote something a while ago on another thread, on what is "up" with Oathbringer. So here you go with some minor alterations: The big "problem" I think a lot of people have with OB that no grand expectation is set or promise made for the last few hundred pages or so. In WoK we had Dalinar vs Sadeas and the situation of Bridge Four and indeed these issues were met by the end of WoK. In WoR an even greater expectation was resolved that the war against the Parshendi would end which we had expected since the beginning of WoK. OB is different. The big villain is Odium but we also know that he is not going to be defeated in this book. There is no plan how to challange him, no ring to throw into Mt. Doom, no Death Star to destroy, no Horcruxes to kill, you get the point. All plotlines hang in a void without some big expectation to tie them all together. Instead the characters stumble along for the last act to arrive. I mean they literally stumble through the Perpendicularity into Thaylen! We could not have expected the books resolution there. This lack of a bigger expectation makes for a somewhat confusing read. This does not make OB a bad book, just an unusual one. I did not like it as much as WoR but it is still damnation good.
  7. So what prevented the Radiants from sticking around was their inability to make really "messy" choices? Like, killing other Radiants? They did enslave the entire Listener race. But maybe that was the trigger that threw them off. I get, what you are saying. It is the oaths in themselves that proclaim an untenable ideal in a world of humans with different passions and perceptions. The Post-Nahel Radiants would still have that moral conflict. I just think they somehow knew they were slowly coming around to the way of Odium, not just walking away from the way of Honor. They knew, where this game was heading in the long run, so they decided not to play anymore. And I guess, I will hold on to that persuasion until a new book disproves or approves of my theory. One additional thing: There would be a neat thematic parallel to christian doctrine. -Men being sinners/ enclined to the way of Odium; -Them being saved by the torturous sacrifice of one divine individual (Jesus/Taln) -Humans as a whole being bad people, but some individuals are awesome (saints/ Radiants; disciples/ Heralds) -But even the best human beings betray the one individual (Heralds abandoning Taln/ Judas betraying J., Peter disavowing J., the other d. falling asleep)
  8. @The One Who Connects I like your theory a lot. I think that is how the corruption of the orders was going to happen. They began aligning themselves with their respective homelands and infighting between KR was inevitable. Yeah, but the order of the Skybreakers is older than even 4000 years. In all that time they, or any other order, did not destroy Roshar. Maybe it is infighting between different groups of Surgebinders that causes cosmic destruction? That happened on Ashyn and was going to happen on Roshar without a common enemy. Skybreakers have no infighting because they are bound to the law and Nale is running a tight ship. He does not need to be involved in these events, but he easily could have. My theory does not rest on Odium`s influence. It would be just as powerful, if we got option 1). Humans are drawn by their passionate (infighting) nature into the arms of their metaphorical Father Odium. That is why he is so fond of Humans: They behave in an odious/ passionate way. Your theory does not adress point A); Why couldn`t the orders be continued without Nahel-bonds? They would have a monopoly on Shards. I think the only possible explanation is that they saw themselves becoming Odium`s tool in the long run. As is the Vorin church , the Shin elders, the Azish elite, etc. That is why their order had to be disbanded.
  9. ah, ok but this is not really an integral part of my theory. I just assumed it would make the most sense. Odium still has a special bond to Humans. That`s exactly what the Stormfather says though, I mean literally: Then he gives actually more evidence for my theory: He blames them for being humans, being passionate people, that will, neccesarily, create a corrupt organization in the long term. I am totally on board with your theory that the spren are in on it. This is quite compatible with my theory. Edit: I have read through the thread of your theory. There seemed to be quite a lot of people, who still thought the Recreance was a massive plothole. Maybe my additional explanation could answer some of their concerns?
  10. In OB we learn the apparent reason for the Recreance: Humans had been the original Voidbringers and would eventually destroy Roshar by using surges, as we hear from the Stormfather himself: The thing is, it does not make a lot of sense. A: They could have chosen a way less dramatic exit. They could have broken their bonds and still retain the Shardplates and Blades. This way their order would have remained as a powerful political institution to prepare humankind for the next desolation. Or in general to keep order in Roshar. B: There has been one Knight Radiant order around for 4000 years, they did not destroy Roshar and possibly never will. Therefore, behold my grand theory! The Radiants abandoned their oaths because they realized, humans are Odium`s children. This needs a bit of explanation. So let`s back off a bit shall we? Rosharan came from Ashyn/ the Tranquiline Halls, which they destroyed by using Surges. They had access to these Surges but they were likewise under Odium`s influence. I think it is likely Odium created Rosharan humans on Ashyn Edit: This is definitly not true as seen by WoB below quoted by RShara. Anyways, it is apparent Odium has a deep bond to Rosharan humans as he speaks to Dalinar and Taravangian: It is made clear in Dalinar`s passage explicitly and in T.`s implicitly that old Rayse regards Rosharan humans as his children. Maybe this is a special trait he brings to the power of Odium. He does not want to destroy them, he wants to corrupt Honors influence and ethics and bring them to his side. We know for some time that the question of whether you are on Honors or Odium`s side is not as much about your ends, but about what means you are willing to employ to get there. Journey before destination is Honor`s path. Passion before anything else Odium`s. Now, if we look around Roshar at the beginning of SA, we see Odium`s influence everywhere, Honor`s almost nowhere. Alethi culture is all about game, the thrill, the glory, the victory. The codes of Honor are followed by exactly no one except House Kholin. The Way of Kings used to be a handbook for any ruler, almost nobody is reading it in our time. The Vorin church reveres the Almighty, but does not put ethical, “honorable” restraints on anyone. In fact in Kholinar we see that one Ardent paving the way for the arrival of the Unmade. The Shin follow the code of their tradition too much. So much so they miss the time, for which they were created in the first place. They make Szeth Truthless for this. In Azir it is almost the same. The protocol has become so elaborate, it makes responding to challenges almost impossible. Powerful groups in both countries only care about staying in power, not about how this power is exercised. And then there is the enslavement of an entire race, about which nobody cares about…. I can think of two explanations for this horrible state of affairs. 1) Humans on Roshar as Odium`s children are more drawn to Odium than they are to Honor. 2) It was Odium`s subtle influence on his children over 4000 years that created this; Or a combination of the two. This is the explanation for point A). If the Radiants had stayed as a powerful force on Roshar, their Order would have been corrupted by the shortcomings of human nature or Odium`s influence. They would have become like the Skybreakers or the Vorin church: Organizations corrupted beyond recognition. Odium would only need to ask the Bondsmiths to release him end they would have freed him. By terminating the Order they gave future Radiants the chance to stand up to Odium. It is likely that the enslavement of the Listeners gave the deciding impulse to make them realize they were becoming a tool of Odium. Regarding point B), I propose it is not exactly Surgebinders onto themselves that are destroying worlds. It is Surgbinders under Odiums influence doing it, as it happened on Ashyn and was going to happen on Roshar with corrupted KR orders. The Knights realized that they were the children of Odium/ Voidbringers. Therefore they had to accept that their order would be corrupted, even if they had just abandoned the spren and carried on without them. The Skybreakers realized they would be immune to Odium`s influence, if they`d be completely emotionless. This in turn perverted the intent of their order.
  11. Remember: Sequels always have to be bigger, as some Ardent said.
  12. @teknopathetic I don`t know about your Nalthis theory. The evidence is a bit to thin. Shouldn`t a massive plotpoint like this be set up more carefully, you know, since WoK? "We know"? Do you have an WoB for this? The Iri thing alone is a bit thin, to say that "We know". I agree though that certain sentient races will leave Roshar by the end of book 5. I believe that a lot of humans will stay on Roshar, now beeing Odiums people. A probable candidate may be Braize but Nalthis, as you suggested, is likewise possible. I have a theory written up here, that it is indeed Odiums "endgame" for Roshar to bring humans, his original people, back to his cause. The Listeners are just pawns he sacrifices in that game.
  13. There is some evidence that team Honour will lose the battle for Roshar. Consider the story Hoid told Kaladin in th prison in WoR. The runner ran well but ultimatly could not outrun the storm and died. But it did not matter he died because he ran well. I think the end of the series will be similar. Odium will win but his victory will be meaningless.
  14. @FuzzyWordsmith Well, one of the main arguments in the Thread that Shall not be Named was that Brandon is misleading the audience by implying Shallan would be on recovery; While in fact the relationship to a certain character is actually hindering the chances for recovery. BTW that thread offered waaay more good arguments than people give it credit for. But yes, I agree with you. It is kind of problematic to end the narrative for a few years on that note.