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PhineasGage

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  1. I did (3 times in fact) . That is why I got annoyed. I have tried to explain myself by quoting you then explaining my position and why you have misunderstood. Then you go and misrepresent my position again. There is simply no point in me continuing to argue my point when you aren't engaging with me. 1) Most posts simply acknowledge that there is the possibility for Adolin to go bad because he committed murder. That's one interpretation, yours is another. 2) Most posts are not saying that Adolin is inherently selfish- they acknowledge that we don't get much insight into Adolin's PoV so we don't know how much selfishness is there in his actions. That adds a shade of grey into the interpretation of Adolin - it is as reasonable as saying we don't need to see his PoVs because his actions display his selflessness. It is an opinion. Yours is another. I would add that the WoB on Adolin being "what you see is what you get" supports your position in this. 3) There is strong acknowledgement that Adolin's action by killing Sadeas is immoral. Not everyone agrees, but there are some here that see the murder as an immoral act. That doesn't make all of Adolin's character or actions immoral. It simply means that he may be capable of immoral acts in the future. If you think the murder was moral then you will disagree with that. It is still an opinion. The WoB of "what you see is what you get" I feel supports the idea that the murder is immoral from Adolin's perspective because he hides it. Essentially it feels like you have reacted very negatively to valid opinions regarding Adolin's character and then stated that most of the thread holds more extreme views of Adolin than is actually the case. I get that you like Adolin and relate to him, but these criticisms are not of the Adolin as you see him. They are criticisms of the Adolin seen by others. Different perspective results in a different view of the character which results in different opinions. I don't much care for the Adolin I see. That is likely a very different character to the one you see because otherwise we would likely have more aligned opinions of him. The problem here is that (a) if you quote someone then directly imply they said something they didn't it will annoy them and anyone else who actually reads their posts and (b) only 2 people regularly used the word sociopathic (myself and aemetha) and thus it was clear who you were referring to. Even though neither of us actually said what you implied and we both clarified our positions multiple times. Hence we both got annoyed for being misrepresented. On top of that, if you feel strongly that something is wrong with a post then you should quote it directly and not lump multiple nuanced opinions together because it actually undermines your own argument - it makes you look like you aren't engaging so people will switch off. Overall, I don't object to you arguing Adolin's position. It is refreshing. I just object to arguments here being reduced to black and white oversimplifications when the thread is heavily nuanced and there is a broad range of opinions. By reducing the arguments in such a way you cause the thread to become very circular as people feel the need to explain their positions multiple times and it gets dull. Fine - but bear in mind that it wasn't your opinions that were the problem here - it was the fact you weren't actually engaging in the conversation, you were simply repeating your position and misrepresenting others. If you feel I am being unfair, I will happily discuss it further in PM. Yes I agree Calyx. I am on the SS Shalladin but if I'd been given enough material to jump ship, I would have done so (albeit somewhat reluctantly because foreshadowing) - but, as you say the relationships don't seem to develop much during OB. Indeed, besides the marriage, I would even argue that the relationships between A/S/K are not much more progressed than they were at the end of WoR - we get a bit of additional material for Kaladin/Adolin getting closer as friends but not much. Shallan may or may not still like Kaladin more than is appropriate, Adolin and Shallan share some important information - but it is all "new" from the end of WoR, and Kaladin is still accepting of Shadolin (note he says in WoR that "they fit"). Additionally, I would suggest that the major conflict points in the relationships haven't really been changed. Kaladin and Adolin had already resolved their differences by end of WoR and Shallan is never really a point of conflict between them, and Adolin seems to cope with Kaladin taking Adolin's position as Dalinar's right hand man. Helaran's death still lies as a point of conflict between Shallan and Kaladin, Adolin doesn't know Shallan's history and we don't know if "Veil" will actually tell him anything. Yes this is important - while trueShallan is still fractured, her alts can behave independently. It is a potential problem for her as it sets up intrasystem conflict. A "single" (ie a person with a single core identinty - like most of us) displays this kind of conflict as cognitive dissonance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance which we can resolve in a number of ways. Shallan however, splits her ideas, thoughts, and behaviours amongst her alts and so she can cause conflict between them. That can cause all kinds of issues. It doesn't have to, but it is one of the factors likely to contribute the the spontaneous reintegration of her personalities which, if she isn't ready for it, she may really struggle with. I think I must have missed something here - can you elaborate your idea please? It sounds interesting. I know exactly what you mean! I did feel a bit better about it after listening to the audio, but I think Shallan needs to stand up (*ahem @Dreamstorm) and deal with this herself. Agreed. I am less keen on how he phrased it ("he can have you" or something iirc) but it was probably one of Adolin's best moments in terms of his character. I also think it is interesting that Kaladin and Adolin both essentially feel the same "acceptance" for Shallan's choice. They are not so different. Yes indeed - I feel very bad for Adolin here. He is doing his best for himself and her (not that she is better with Kaladin, but she is in no shape to be a decent partner atm) and she goes and stops him. I don't blame him for giving in - he wants to be in a relationship - that's why there is so little time between his partners. I don't really blame Shallan either - she is like a ship at sea in a highstorm herself - any safe harbour will do. Adolin should be more than that to her, but I am not sure that he is (yet). I personally see us having run aground on a coral reef - nowhere near land - as we have no supplies left, I'd even be happy to see "land of Shadolin" which is rumoured to have really weird hair before getting back on board the SS Shalladin and sailing off the edge of the world! Perhaps my nautical metaphors are getting out of hand? I think I need to read this author. Indeed - self-awareness is necessary for all KR, but crucial for a LW. "Very Bad" almost doesn't cover it - she is ripping herself and her bond to Pattern apart by refusing to acknowledge her true self. I don't think we'll open SA4 to a completely broken Shallan but I do think she'll probably have another crisis in SA4. If not, then SA5. She can't go on like this in my opinion. If she was living in a less stressful environment (eg not during a desolation) then she might manage to stay as a multiple, but given the circumstances I seriously doubt it. I personally think that Shallan will realise the truth for another reason and this will eventually lead her to Kaladin. She is (imo) using a man to help her lie. She needs to find the truth on her own because no-one can make her reintergrate - she has to do it, and want to do it herself. I agree - infatuation may be a stage towards passionate love, but it doesn't have to be. I feel "love" is a stretch for both Kaladin and Adolin. Different parts of Shallan have similar levels of feelings for both men - BS describes it as love, but I personally would say it was more infatuation for both of them. Her marriage to Adolin increases the chance of attachment forming to him over Kaladin, and that is the best marker of stability in a long term relationship. But then , attachment needs to start forming before the infatuation ends or it will just burn out. Exactly, that's why it amused me that Bradon expressed himself in a way that suggested he sees even more to Shalladin than we do (and to Shadolin as well, but let's ignore that). I suspect it was for simplicity more than anything! He is showing the equality of the feelings, the actual level is less important. She is choosing to "love the one she is with" to all intents and purposes. Ha I love it - but I am unwilling to run with it (sorry). The WoB says they are equal in terms of level - and she has more scope for growing attachment to Adolin. As long as I see decent grounds for that attachment (no more "without you I fade" nonsense) I can live with it. Hmm, am I arguing for Shadolin now? My feelings are that she had more to gain from making Adolin like her and more to lose by him not liming her so she had to put her best foot forward with him - thus it took her longer to realise she can tell him things. Kaladin's opinion mattered less in a way, so she was freer to talk to him so they bonded more quickly. This is where it really matters whether she can be honest with Adolin going forward. If she can't, it will massively impair their ability to attach to one another. Adolin thinks that the "Shallan" persona is the "real one". How is he going to feel that a good chunk of trueShallan is a thief, a con-artist, a murderer, betraying Jasnah and Dalinar (Ghostbloods) and sacrilegious? Those are all parts of her she's pushed onto Veil - her feelings regarding Kaladin are almost an aside - part of Shallan revels in the con, in the thrill of risk taking behaviour. That isn't the Shallan he knows - he will feel like the rug has really been pulled from under him when he realises. Can he even love that woman? Maybe - but it would be unfair to expect it. Even if true Shallan does end up attached to Adolin, what if he doesn't feel the same way? Indeed. Veil is so good at doing what she is told after all.
  2. I'd like to address these quickly because if you think about it, your arguments against the marriage being messed with contradict your argument that we need to consider the in-world culture contradict each other. Either the author is writing his own issues, or he is writing in-world. I don't think BS lacks self-awareness so he would know if he was writing something that doesn't fit with the world because of his own bias. He has included same-sex relationships for example despite his own religious background for this reason. As a point,he is religious. He is a member of the LDS church (aka Mormon) and even teaches at Brigham Young University. I just don't think he lets this colour his writing too much. After all, his own religion can be used as a way to avoid military service in the US (they preach and practice pacificism) yet he writes a militaristic culture in the Alethi. My point with Adolin's murder being amoral is the in-world culture anyway. Though my own ideas on this are likely stricter than the Alethi - I too am essentially a pacifistic - the Alethi cuture does not condone this kind of murder. Look at the inworld examples we have - Adolin, Shallan (killing Tyn), Shallan (killing her father) and the various assassination attempts made. They are all done in secrecy. Not one of them is done in the open as would have been necessary for this culture to consider it right and proper. Adolin hides his actions from everyone - because he knows what he did would be considered wrong in Alethi society. His actions wouldn't be essentially ignored by Alethi society like they ignored Sadeas leaving the Kholins on the battlefield. It is pretty clear to me that assassination is normal in the world but it is not considered moral or legal. If it were, then Adolin wouldn't have hidden his actions for almost all of OB.
  3. I don't have much time today - nor indeed the inclination to get into things deeply here. This is mainly because I am fed up of having to explain multiple times now that I have never said that Adolin is a "bad guy" but that his murder was a "bad thing". And yes, this is aimed mostly at you @maxal I am giving up on trying to explain myself to you because you are either deliberately misunderstanding my position or I am unable to explain myself sufficiently well to make you understand it. I have tried, and failed, so rather than devote yet more time to a debate that can't go anywhere I am moving on. To anyone else who is unclear on my position regarding Adolin I'll summarise: Adolin is alright most of the time. His moral code is not better or worse than most of the people of he interacts with. I think he believes he acted wrongly because he hid his murder of Sadeas. If he honestly thought it was the right thing to do, he'd have admitted it sooner imo. The murder of Sadeas is a "bad thing". It shows that Adolin can be impulsive and reckless (which is borne up elsewhere in text) and doesn't always consider the consequences of his actions. I think he acted in hate and rage. These are negative emotions, regardless of how well justified they might be. Adolin, like any other normal person, has the capacity for both good and evil. He might go dark, though I don't think he has to for the story to work. I am not invested in whether he goes dark or not, as long as it is believable either way. I believe his attitude towards Shallan's alts are unhelpful. He is not to blame for not knowing better, but that doesn't make them any less unhelpful. I think this will feature in SA4. Adolin's arc is not finished - he is too close to too many MCs and thus will have some development of his own regardless of whether he ends up "dark" or not. I think the Maya arc will be part of this. I don't think Adolin is "true" edgedancer material - he may have enough in him to reawaken Maya and this will be interesting, but I am less sure that he will end up being full Radiant. For one thing, my own interpretation of the EDs (nb Loving/healing) is that they would not be terribly keen on killing - and would likely avoid it even in self-defence. On a side note, I am of the firm opinion that murder is an antisocial behavior (aka sociopathic.....) and this is why it is generally considered immoral and illegal. The act of killing someone else, in my opinion, can only be justified in exceptional circumstances. I don't personally find Adolin's justification sufficient. I have also said that Jasnah's actions in Kharbranth are equally immoral. Dalinar's actions at (and before) Rathalas are appalling and also have no sufficient justification. To be clear, Jasnah is my favourite side character - she and I have a great deal in common, but that doesn't excuse her actions. I also dislike that Kaladin is so good at killing. His kills are legally justified, but I agree fully with his father that you cannot kill to protect except in very extreme situations. Indeed I think Kaladin is finally coming round to this idea himself. OK, some other thoughts on other ideas touched upon: The "triangle" is done, because triangles are about choice and the struggle with that choice. This is not the same as romantic arcs being over. Shallan has made her choice - one might say she has made her bed and now she has to lie in it (get it? lie /= truth and lie down... no? just me then lol) Kaladin is likely to avoid raising conflict between Shallan and Adolin - eg by his actual physical absence. If they have conflict, he will not be the cause of it. This doesn't mean romantic arcs are over. Shallan and Adolin really need to actually get to know each other without the lies/fabrications etc. I suspect that SA4 will have either a conflict in the marriage a la the "traditional" romantic arc where the conflict causes a separation at least emotionally that ends in reconciliation or the conflict results in a situation that directly or indirectly leads to Adolin's death (possibly in SA5). NB Kaladin is not involved in this. Shalladin's foreshadowing is not a bait and switch. It was too deeply done on top of the "obvious" romantic arc that was alluded to in WoR. That to me suggests that the bait and switch is the marriage between Adolin and Shallan. It has no depth to it beyond standard teenage dating, which would be fine if they were dating, but for a marriage, it is as likely to cause angst as happiness. I doubt Tarah is relevant to the conversation going forward except that she shows partly what Kaladin is looking for in a partner. He understands, at least in part, what his mistakes there were. I don't think he is still holding a torch for her - she is simply the person who best shows his romantic inclinations. It is normal to reflect on past relationships, especially when considering a new partner. The relationship is designed to show how much damage he was doing to his own self-interest because of his inability to put the burdens of his failures down - and they are literally and metaphorically weighing him down. I agree with @GameOfGroans (welcome aboard the SS Shalladin which I refuse to acknowledge is sinking - we are just lost at sea) in that there is a personal bias because of personal preferences and memories (as a point, I loved you post, and I am so sorry about your partners Alzheimer's - it is a terrible thing to lose a person, but even worse when you can't really mourn their loss because they are still partly there. I hope you have plenty of additional support around you) . I personally value intelligence more than kindness or openness in a partner. I am a "serial monogamist" I suppose, and my most successful relationships have been based on a meeting of minds (including the one I have with my SO now) so I personally would value Kaladin more highly than Adolin. Neither Kaladin nor Shallan are in a good place for a serious committed relationship. They don't know themselves well enough yet to know what will suit them. This is normal for people of their age. On top of that they need to heal. Kaladin's issues are less deepseated than Shallan's (his major issue is SAD, and his depression is related to his position as a slave etc - he is letting go of those feelings, so it is not something that will dog him for all his days. His SAD is likely to continue, but it is only a few weeks long each year and so he just needs to learn to manage it. So this whole "broken people are bad for each other" thing that people are going on about is only true as long as Kaladin has mood problems. On top of that as I firmly believe that Adolin is likely to cause Shallan more harm than good by treating her alts differently, it isn't like her being with a "whole" person is going to make it a healthy relationship. Indeed, such a situation could make her entirely dependent on him. If anyone wants to counter my points I would greatly appreciate you using quotes from the books or WoBs or analogies from other books. I am getting a little tired of arguing my points with quotes (which I use a lot if you check my posts) and just being dismissed with "I feel you are wrong" without any equal level of justification for that idea. I am happy to be proven wrong, but no-one's feelings are "proof". I get people don't always have time, and that is understandable, but at the same time, it is very upsetting to be dismissed by others simply because they disagree. Alright. I'll be back tomorrow I expect with a more "phin-type" post. To anyone who has joined us here - welcome It is always good to have new faces here to add to the debate! Sorry if I've come off a bit annoyed today - I can be nice, I promise
  4. You want me to ask you questions.... risky 1) How long have you got? 2) What is your opinion on the difficult conundrum of cats vs dogs? 3) How many toes do you have? 4) Which would you choose - to have all of Sanderson's books available (inc future ones) but never be able to talk about them with anyone (ever), or have them with with everyone else and be able to talk freely? 5) If we were offered a shorter book (a la Edgedancer) which interlude character would you choose? 6) Why? 7) Who is your least favourite character in the cosmere? Please explain in detail 8) Seriously, how long have you got?
  5. Morning all I am so glad to have some deep thoughts that counter mine - makes the thread seem less bubble like So thanks especially to @maxal and @Ookla the Feathered for their posts. That said, I am going to counter them! I disagree. Dalinar is looking for legal ways to handle Sadeas. Adolin stews. Shallan finds the dueling way by reminding them of the King's Boon. Adolin even acknowledges that he'd forgotten about Yenev's duel with Sadeas - which suggests that he had some idea about how it went down but wasn't thinking about it as an option (nb doesn't fit with an Edgedancer motif but anyway) . I would argue that because Adolin has multiple encounters with Sadeas where he struggles to contain his rage that he is not capable of thinking of a legal way of handling it. I don't blame him for being angry, but it is blinding him. Indeed, this seems to be your argument for his act being moral. I disagree. Dalinar isn't thinking of Sadeas at all until he is found dead. He has to deal with the situation as is -Dalinar is not the sort of person to spend long wishing for what cannot be - he is better at "doing" than "thinking". He is also the only one to think that it is a pity that Sadeas is dead. I think it is clear he is the only one at the scene of the crime (besides Sadeas' men) who actually mourns the loss of what could have been. I am not suggesting that Dalinar was right that Sadeas could have been redeemed - but the man's death means he definitely can't be. Yes. But this is a problem in my mind. I feel like Adolin worries a bit about the fact of the murder - because he doesn't want to be caught (understandably) but not the why or the how. I also want to point out that he acknowledges that Dalinar was right about the visions (in tWoK - he stews for 5 days in text and finally realises he is glad he was wrong). So he does admit mistakes. Actually not admitting a mistake is narcissistic - Adolin isn't a narcissist because he can admit mistake. He just isn't doing so here. And whilst the murder possibly could be justified (I personally don't think it was - but I acknowledge that others might - including Adolin) I don't believe Adolin actually ever feels it was unjustified. That is concerning - most people would at least worry about what if they had made a mistake. They then rationalise it. Adolin, in contrast is worried about what others will think of him but not the actual fact that he is a murderer. Except that this is wrong. Killing Sadeas not only doesn't protect Dalinar (the whole TC thing happened because of this murder) but won't do so in the future. How far is Adolin prepared to go to protect his father? Adolin's snap decisions show a remarkable lack of foresight here, and he never admits that by killing Sadeas in the way he did, he caused the rift between Houses Kholin and Sadeas to widen to a point where they cannot ever be reconciled. That goes directly against what Dalinar is trying to do (Unite them) but the greater plan never enters Adolin's head. Wait, so Ialai's "petty" revenge (for the death of her husband, the loss of her position, the loss of her troops, the likely associated loss of her princedom) can't be used as a plotpoint to drive a greater narrative? That makes no sense - any tiny piece can be used to drive a narrative. I wouldn't have expected Shallan practicing Shardblade poses to cause her to splinter her identity, but it did. It was a relatively small moment in a much larger part of the story. There are plenty such moments. Tefts addiction is alluded to in WoR suggesting he might be broken enough for a nahel bond, Lopen holding the spheres in WoR long before he starts "drinking" in the stormlight. These can be used to propel all kinds of things. Firstly, clearly Renarin asks - because he heals Adolin. You acknowledge that then contradict yourself. We see it happen from Dalinar's perspective - which means he is watching and that he cares. He trusts the people who he sees as best able to manage to do their jobs. The Radiants job is to protect people and fight the voidbrngers - Adolin isn't one. His role of stepping up beside Dalinar as an equal has been usurped by the Radiants around him. This is something that likely bothers Adolin. Adolin sets great store by Dalinar's opinion (as you;ve noted) so this is likely a very difficult moment for him - he isn't used to being ignored - indeed Renarin, perhaps more than any of the other Radiants, gets his place as the first person to get commands. I would be interested to see how Adolin handles that. We get a tiny moment when he is less than pleased about Renarin when we see a rather uncharitable thought about Renarin arriving at the Thunderclast : "Took you long enough". He doesn't say it - he thinks it. That's not fair - it isn't Renarin's fault that Adolin got there first - they took different routes - and what is the betting that Renarin was healing people on the way? He also doesn't have any real experience fighting and moving through a battlefield yet so is it surprising that he would take longer? I don't think so. This thought is unworthy of Adolin - Renarin has never (until recently) held any kind of position above Adolin - and this is how he handles it? I personally suspect that it isn't Adolin thinking it - or perhaps it is something that it being egged on - but if I'm wrong and it is Adolin then he is definitely not as good a brother to Renarin as Renarin is to him. With regards to remembering Sadeas, look at it in text. It mirrors very well what happened during the murder: "That's it." in WoR and "Sadeas. Don't forget Sadeas." The emphasis is in book. This reads (a) very like Ruin and Vin and (b) even if it isn't Odium speaking, trying to drive thoughts in, it suggests that Adolin has not completely dealt with the situation yet - indeed he may be doing what Shallan did by suppressing his memories - he just isn't as good at it as she is - he suppressed his thoughts by getting into combat. Well fair enough. I don't believe this. Mainly because given other books, BS tends to write with foreshadowing in mind and that all actions have consequences that ripple across several books. I think you mean Dalinar here? I am going to assume so while making my point: Dalinar didn't hate Adolin and Renarin. He hated himself and was projecting that feeling onto his boys. We see the way Renarin and he hug at the end of one of the flashbacks that he doesn't hate them. He just can't handle the self-loathing and guilt. Once those emotions are removed, I suspect that the relationships normalised. We get no indication of a strained relationship between either son and Dalinar. I also think that Dalinar put Adolin's safety very highly - but he also understood that Adolin couldn't be a successful Highprince if he didn't get the necessary training and authority. To a warrior culture like the Alethi, that means battle. I would say that Dalinar is thus protecting Adolin the best way he knows how. They fight together until Dalinar can no longer go into battle - and Dalinar is literally the best there is and he considers Adolin an equal. He also values Adolin's opinion over everyone else's. We see him think of Adolin more than any other single person - especially in tWoK, but it is also true, albeit to a lesser extent in WoR. Anyway, I would suggest that the fact that Dalinar thinking he "hated" his sons being the impetus for him seeking the Old Magic, is the best indicator that he did'nt hate them - he was prepared to risk a lot to seek the Nightwatcher - including getting vengeance for Gavilar, blasphemy, physical harm, and failure just to try and fix things. The thing is, he doesn't wonder about guilt. He isn't sure whether to feel pride or shame. Shame and guilt are not the same thing. You can feel guilt for something but not shame. They are often simultaneous, but are not necesserily so. Shame is about how you will be perceived, guilt is how you perceive yourself. I would argue that shame fits with Adolin's desire to appear "good" and "proper" and "attractive" to those around him (eg why he is fashionable) but guilt is something that people feel because they judge themselves. Firstly - Adolin doesn't "take responsibility" for the murder because he essentially argues it wasn't murder it was justice. I would argue that it was vengeance, not justice, and thus he should take responsibility for it. Instead he says he would do it again. I predict we will see him kill again in a similar fashion as a result of that line - Adolin is quite good at predicting his own actions. He predicted that he would kill Sadeas after all when he threatened the man in WoR. Secondly, I would (and have) argued that Amaram was falling the way of "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" and that this is what Adolin might be doing. Potentially any negative thought that you have might be a hook into Odium - he is extraordinarily dangerous - more so because he initially seems benign. It is no accident that he appears as a kindly old grandfatherly figure. If he looked dangerous, fewer people would be ensnared. The Listeners weren't inherently evil, and they've gone with Odium because they were desperate and afraid. Neither of those are "negatve" in the truest sense of the word, but they are unpleasant emotions. People want to be rid of them, and given long enough in fear - most people will take the "easier" way out. It isn't "weakness" it is human nature - we are inherently flawed. A) As I said, the fact that he isn't feeling them is what worries me - where are the emotions that we would expect? (b) If I am judging your comment rightly, this is the WoB you are referencing: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/44-minicon-2015/#e659 I personally see this as it being Adolin's choice - he wasn't influenced - but that doesn't mean he hasnt opened a door to more problems down the road. Indeed I would argue that Amaram was in the same place to begin with - I think he had already started on that path long before he killed Kaladin's men (he knew of Gavilar's plan for example) but he still had to be convinced to kill Kaladin's men - and he felt guilty about it. I suspect that Odium doesn't influence people the way Ruin did - it is far easier to manipulate people into making their own choices and live to rue the day. That way they can't actually live with themselves. Dalinar only managed to get through it because he'd had time to confront his past, and understand that he wasn't the same person as he had been on the day of Evi's death. And? Neither Dalinar nor Renarin react as extremely as Adolin does. Indeed, it appears that most of the warcamps are saying this kind of thing, but Adolin only really hates Sadeas for it. He never hates Aladar or Ruthar in the same way. What about the others who lambast Dalinar in Adolin's presence in tWoK when they are out drinking wine. He just brushed it off - even from the woman (Danlan at the time) he was courting who says he probably didn't need to step down but he did need to relax the codes. The others are pretty rue to Adolin and Dalinar but he doesn't get violent with them. Again, it comes down to Adolin's need to be perceived in a certain way, and this is extended to his House. I just don't see why this hated is justified when we see no other character hate Sadeas the way Adolin does. Not even Kaladin hates him in the same way - and he (in my opinion) had a great deal more reason to hate him. If Adolin had stormlight the way Kaladin has it when Kal considers killing Amaram, do we honestly think Adolin would have even thought twice about it? I need to see this WoB because honestly, it makes no sense - Sadeas attempts assassination on Dalinar (the bridge/carpenter) and when there is an assassination attempt on Elhokar (the cut balcony) Sadeas and Ialai debate which of the highprinces likely made the attempt. On top of that, when Elhokar is worried about how Dalinar is handling the highprinces, he says "they will send assassins" - and no-one corrects it. Indeed they investgate an assassination attempt in tWoK - even tho they worry Elhokar is paranoid. In WoR prologue we see Jasnah hire an assassin to deal with the future Queen and she explicitly says that she has hired many more to protect her family. When Gavilar is dying he asks Szeth who sends him and wonders, amongst other things, whether Sadeas and Restares (likely Altethi court member but unclear) are the peole who hire Szeth to kill him...... Assassination not a part of the Alethi court? If WoB is genuinely that then frankly I have to wonder if he has read his books..... The only WoB I could find on this subject is this one: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/35-arcanum-unbounded-hoboken-signing/#e5015 Which to me suggests that it was done but you kept your involvement quiet to avoid dishonour. Yes I agree. He nearly hits Sadeas in a major meeting and Amaram stops him. He also threatens Sadeas in this scene: I am of the opinion that he wouldn't have been able to stop himself at a single punch - even at this point - he is too deeply angry at Sadeas. Those other characters reacted to an immediate threat (Shallan), or were conducting the business of war in which killing is a requirement (Kaladin), or were similarly vilified (Dalinar). Adolin is held to the standard he is being held to because intent matters. Let's have a look at the different murders/deaths we've seen. 1) Kaladin - let's be clear - a) Kaladin did not kill Szeth (after the retcon) so we have never seen Kaladin kill outside the field of battle and even then he actually feels bad doing it. Indeed in OB he freezes as a direct consequence of being unable to reconcile protecting and killing. Obviously this will be something dealt with in book 4 and he will swear his 4th ideal as a consequence. 2) Dalinar - was a monster as a younger man. It is clearly written and he pays a huge price for it. He feels guilt which he hides in the Thrill or in the alcholol until he can no longer do either which is then when he seeks the NW. Then he loses a huge chunk of himself so that he can grow into a better man. And Dalinar still pays every day for those murders - he lives by the codes so strictly because he cannot trust himself to behave well without a rigid code enforced upon him 3) Shallan - I'll take these 3 (Tyn, Lin, her mother) in reverse order a) Tyn - this was self defence, pure and simple. Tyn was planning on killing Shallan as soon as she found out Shallan was Jasnah's ward. It was literally kill or be killed - especially as the only weapon Shallan had was a shardblade which is difficult to wield without killing someone. She feels some "depression" at killing Tyn, but she does it during a moment of dissociation (she goes cold/numb) and there really was no other way out. She regrets the necessity of killing Tyn - because she liked her - despite the fact of her being an assassin. This doesn't compare to Adolin/Sadeas which was not in anyway like immediate self defence because Adolin attacks first. Indeed, if Sadeas had killed Adolin in this fight, his defence would have been the same as Shallan's. Adolin's however, isn't. (b) Lin Davar - this, from what we have seen, is the closest to "true" murder of the three killings we see from Shallan. She finds Melise dead and then goes to prepare her father's wine with poison because she (rightly) predicts that he has finally lost control and is a risk to everyone in the household. They are in the middle of a highstorm so she cannot go for help. Her brothers are too undermined to act in her stead or to prevent Lin's actions without bloodshed. There is literally only one outcome that can happen to prevent a likely massacre at the Davar home, and that is to kill Lin. Shallan does plan it, and she continues to act (ie by strangling after the poison fails) until the desired outcome is achieved. She however does feel guilt about it. She cries as she kills her father, she apologises, and she thanks him for what he did for her. She feels terrible about it, but has to act for the good of the rest of the family. On top of that we have a very long history of abuse in this household. It is unclear how much happened prior to Shallan's mother's death, but it is clear that Lin has done a great deal of damage to his children by this point - indeed, I suspect that none of them really understand non-violent resolutions to situations as a result of his parenting. (c) Shallan's mother (do we actually know her name?) - this is also self defence - and most importantly, we have the least evidence about it. We also know that Shallan is so devastated by her actions that she doesn't speak for months and spends much of her time in a dissociative trance. She may not express herself as "guilty" although she describes her self as a monster, both in the moments afterwards, and much later to Wit so I think she feels guilty. Certainly, the acknowledgement of this event is partly to blame for her shattering her identity. As a result, I don't think I am holding Adolin to a different standard. Kaladin's situation never parallels his, and Shallan and Dalinar are literally broken by the murders they have committed. Adolin on the other hand just seems to brush it off. Indeed. And on top of that, taking a life of someone for selfish reasons should inspire some reflections of guilt, and yet we don't see it - indeed Adolin says he;d do it again. So we need to warn anyone he "hates" because apparently he thinks it is sufficient justification. I agree to an extent. Resposnibility is certainly important for KR - so if Adolin is to not become one, it is much less important for his arc in theory. On the other had, avoiding responsibility is important for those we have seen "go dark". Indeed, Szeth is followed by Odium when he attempts to kill Dalinar (the first time in WoR) because he isn't taking responsibility. I don't believe Szeth was influenced by Odium directly, but that doesn't mean he wasn't being used as a tool for Odium in some way. I suspect that Szeth's rebirth has helped him cut whatever links he had to Odium, and he is slowly taking responisbility now - though he still has a way to go in my opinion. Yes I agree, it isn't healthy. I also think that he could have written the actual murder in such a way to make it feel more like justice than vengeance. I can sympathise with Shallan's killings for example, but Adolin and Dalinar's are alike and thus need more ramifications for the societal structure to remain intact. I would argue that Adolin has "broken his social contract" twice here - once by killing Sadeas, and second by failing to feel guilt for the action. Yes I agree with this. Adolin has got too much out of this transaction - it feels unbalanced. Hmm. I sort of disagree with this, though I understand your position. I would say that Adolin's actions are more understandable than Szeth's, but not more defensible. Szeth has a contract, one that according to his own codes (and those of his people) he cannot break. He must do what he is told. To him, the highest law is the person who held his oathstone - and to break that is worse than any "lesser law" (to his perception anyway). Szeth is neither good nor evil - from a DnD (yes its back) perspective, he is lawful neutral. He will obey the laws he holds highest no matter their intents or consequences. Under Shin law I would expect him to be exonerated. Indeed, his punishment for being Truthless is that he is no longer allowed to self-determine in any way and thus has no agency. Yes he could break his own code, but in his mind, that is worse than what he already doing. Therefore he does the least bad thing possible in a world where he only has bad options. Adolin, on the other hand, has complete agency. He could choose to try and have Sadeas dealt with in a legal matter. Dalinar currently holds all the real political power in Urithiru - so sorting a legal trial or whatever would likely be possible. On top of that, Sadeas has just threatened House Kholin whose reputation has just proven to be that of honour and honesty - even when it isn't convenient. Adolin's word as a result would hold a lot of weight. Dalinar also is a KR and that plus Kaladin plus Shallan puts the Kholin house in a very powerful position. They probably could have manipulated the situation to get justice in a more formal way. And lastly, unless the plot is dropped entirely, then who is to say that killing Sadeas has prevented pain and trouble for the Kholins? Sadeas' death caused trouble at TC and certainly opened the door for Odium to take control of people (through the Thrill if I understood the situation properly) and if the plot continues then it could easily cause more. Dalinar suggests that Adoline needs to go through some sort of "atonement" - and that in itself may cause problems for more than just Adolin. Until the books are finished, we cannot be absolutely sure that there are not going to be rippling effects from now on. I know some others have commented on this, and have done so in a much more measured way, but honestly, this just annoys me. You clearly haven't read the thread properly at all so let me summarise the actual points made on this thread: Most people here don't like how Shallan picked Adolin - it does no credit to either of them and could have been done much better to make them seem more real and less insubstantial Adolin has acted once in a way that is described as sociopathic (that is an action that is seen as being "antisocia"l and thus against the cultural, moral and legal norms of a society). He is not a sociopath, but his murder of Sadeas was a sociopathic action. Adolin is portrayed in the books by other PoV characters and they tend to represent him as a perfect prince charming. Whether or not he is one is not the issue - we get most of his story from other people. He is not a "rage monster" - he acted in rage and has shown impulsiveness which is worsened when he is angry. I know it is a long thread, but that is 4 mischaracterisations in one paragraph. I get you don't agree with many of the people in the thread, but it's just insulting to be dismissed with these kind of incorrect statements. Your further points have merit, and I hope to do them justice - but I would like the favour to be returned in kind.. (a) I agree that Adolin is likely not a serial killer in waiting. He shows no potential hallmarks of it, except his lack of guilt. That is concerning, but on its own is not enough to put him on someone's radar - his actions do not imply that his lack of guilt is causing him to reevaluate the moral code he normally lives by. That doesn't have to remain true, of course so there are some things I would watch out for in future books, but I don't necessarily expect him to go dark. (b) Online dictionary: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/vigilante?s=t for vigilante - note that vigilante justice is described thus: "done violently and summarily, without recourse to lawful procedures: vigilante justice." This is obviously therefore the opposite of actual justice. I would be very surprised therefore if the Skybreakers would actually have any truck with it. They would have needed legal permission for the execution, although the fact of Sadeas' death wouldn't likely be a problem except in that it was an illegal act. (c) Sadeas didn't "murder" half the Kholin soldiers. Well, at least, under English law, the clear defence would be a lack of causation. The Parshendi killed the Kholin men. Sadeas' action certainly increased the odds of the mission failure - but they didn't actually guarantee it. From the wiki: In this case, the main action is the war with the Parshendi - Sadeas' actions are reprehensible and should have been dealt with (it would likely be considered some kind of military crime - eg desertion of some form) by the legal system. But it isn't murder because it happens in the context of a situation where Kholin troops are already in harms way. Under civilian rather than military law, Sadeas is under no legal obligation to help them even with a prior agreement. I would be happy to hear some military legal advice on this because I suspect there is something different there, but even then I would argue that these are two allied militray forces, rather than a single army. As such, the laws would likely not be applied anyway - do we prosecute allied forces for failing to rescue our soldiers despite alliances? And this is where I personally expect most consequences to come from. Because I deeply believe that there were other options, but that Adolin chose to ignore them. I can't find this WoB - can you link me please? The only one I could find is this one: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/223-words-of-radiance-seattle-signing/#e6055 Which directly contradicts it - and maybe suggests you'd be more WR than SB If you can justify Sadeas' death with the WR ideals anyway. So here is how I personally read that scene: Neither Shallan nor Kaladin are ready for a serious relationship - with each other or with anyone else. They are both looking for ways to heal and hope to find someone to heal them rather than heal themselves. I think this misunderstanding is necessary for their relationship to proceed because they need to be well as individuals before they can be part of healthy relationships - again either with each other or other people. I also think Kaladin sees something he needs to see here a bit - he is still struggling from the effects of the fight at the palace where his own ability to lie to himself has been stripped from him. Of course he envies that ability in Shallan. He doesn't know the damage she has done to herself because she has never explained the extent of her self-deception to him. It isn't really fair for her to blame him. But equally, it wouldn't be fair for him to expect her to understand his perspective. This personally strikes me as the classic "misunderstanding" that occurs about 2/3rd of the way through a standard romantic arc - it is just that in the trope that misunderstanding causes anger and resentment rather than the more benign emotions we see from Kaladin and Shallan - but once the misunderstanding is over, there is still opportunity. No-one here has said Adolin isn't or won't be supportive. The problem is how he is being supportive. By treating Shallan's identities as separate rather than facets of the whole he is likely to reinforce her separation rather than help her reintegrate. It isn't his fault if that is the case, but that doesn't mean that those actions aren't responsible for her not reintegrating. Given the timeskip, I anticiptae that Shallan will be in no better a place (from an identity perspective) at the beginning of SA4 than she is at the end of WoR and I firmly believe that she is not in a good place. She is a mess, and whilst she my have taken the first step, I don't think she'll take the next during the time-skip. That means Adolin isn't actually helping - no matter his intentions. On top of that, how is she good for Adolin? It isn't fair that he is the one that has to do all the work in the relationship and currently I think that is the direction they are heading in. Interestingly I think Vin and Elend are a better reflection of Shallan/Kaladin than Adolin/Shallan. Spoliers Mistborn Era 1: Anyway, my point is that we can see what we want to see - there will be parallels between any completed romantic arc written by the same author. I just don't think Shallan is done with her romantic plot yet. Indeed, she may still choose Adolin, but I hope she does so for some better reasons than those she gives - they are so generic, yet Adolin has some wonderful traits that ought to be acknowledged by her. Ha, if she were given half a chance I think she would be! She is protected by both Adolin's and Kaladin's sense of propriety - neither of them push for more physicality, which is perhaps the least realistic thing in the whole fiasco They are superficial relationships - because they are all so young and they all haven't known each other that long. Real relationships take time, and ideally that time shouldn't be spent in almost constant stress. I agree. I am not sure that BS shares the opinion, but he got married in his 30s so presumably he doesn't feel that teenagers are always the best at relationships. Indeed, he says so when analysing Romeo and Juliet - he states (rightly in y opinion) that the greatest tragedy of that play is that they just needed time to get over the extremity of their emotions and then get on with life but they ended up doing stupid things because they couldn't see the wood for the trees. Pretty sure someone posted that video in this thread, but can't find it - someone help please? Indeed, I think you are right, although to be honest if the Shallan persona is enough of the "real" Shallan then it is Adolin I feel sorry for because she is actually not a very nice person - she comes off as incredibly selfish at times. I wouldn't want Shallan as she is to be with Kaladin (as I said in my very first post on this forum) because of this. I wouldn't necessarily say more cliched - there are so many romantic plots out there it would likely be impossible to write the story without some cliche. The issue is that the Shadolin cliche's speak to the Disney happy ending of the fairytale prince and princess - and we have 2 more books to the arc. So he could subvert the trope without breaking them up by adding appropriate conflicts, but it still loses all the foreshadowing for Shalladin. So I'm largely meh about Adolin - but mainly because I find the magic using characters more interesting. I don't dislike him per se, but I don't get why so many people think he's amazing. He's alright. I'd probably like him in real life but I don't read fantasy books to read "normal". I also have depression, but I am lucky enough to have a very supportive SO. I am very sorry you had a bad experience in a relationship as a result of your depression. My own experience is quite different however. I got depression about 3 years after meeting/starting dating my SO. We had lived together for about 6months before I moved to another country for school and then we lived apart - even in different timezones. About a year after that I got depressed (unrelated to our separation) and he moved over to support me. I don't think he understands my problem. He is a very level person, very much a type B personality who handles stress exceptionally well, and he doesn't get extremes of emotion. I am very much the opposite and more type A - to the extent of being aggressive in response to stress/confrontation. That being said, he is still able to support me just by being there. He has read around the subject so knows the right things to do and say, but more importantly, he knows not to assume that my bad days are anything to do with him - they aren't. That takes the pressure off him in a way because he doesn't feel at fault when I am low. He also therefore never makes me feel guilty for my bad days. As I said, I know I am very lucky. My point here was not to say that my relationship is the norm, but more to explain that whilst a serious problem can cause rifts in relationships, it doesn't have to - it depends on how much you put on the other person to help you. I don't expect my SO to help me directly - I have to fight my own mental health on my own. He can just do things like make sure I eat and sleep at decent times, and remember to pay the bills and things so I don't have quite so many stresses on bad days. I think that Shallan is expecting Adolin to help her heal. That isn't fair - he doesn't know what he's doing for one thing, and secondly, he shouldn't have to be her therapist and her husband. He also shouldn't expect it of himself - what happens when he is doing everything he can as well as he can do it? Does that mean she isn't trying hard enough or that he has failed? Of course it doesn't - but it is how most people would perceive the situation. With regards to enabling - the logical progression of someone with a problem who continues to do the thing that caused the problem is for that problem to get worse, not better. Adolin is allowing Shallan to hide within her alts. It isn't helpful. He needs to help her handle her fears in more helpful ways. If he does this, I am happy for them to grow and continue together (well aside from the foreshadowing bits, but thats another issue). The problem is that the evidence is that he is helping her solidify her alts. Awww - get well soon! Looking forward to your points I think that if you have to restrain yourself from punching someone it is possible that you would go too far in the heat of the moment. I don't think Adolin had planned to kill Sadeas in the moments before he snapped, but he wouldn't have snapped had there been witnesses as there had been previously. It was the lack of witnesses that freed him to act. *sigh* I would also argue that Jasnah's actions in Kharbranth were immoral personally. She went out of her way to put herself in danger in order to kill those thieves. She even acted before a crime had been committed against her. I doubt she knew for certain that those particular men were definitely the people who had robbed and murdered in the same place before. Sure, they probably were. but what if they weren't? There is a reason that we have the judge and jury separated in the legal system. The jury has limited say over the sentencing, and the judge has limited say over the verdict. That means they can balance their power out. In both Jasnah and Adolin's cases I would argue that they both acted as judge, jury and executioner. This is illegal because the law should not be held by one single person (you cn probably guess my opinions on Nale) because one person can make a mistake too easily - we can be blinded by our own prejudices. It is also immoral because if you make a mistake then you have condemned, sentenced and executed an innocent person. Whether or not Sadeas is a terrible human being is irrelevant - by ignoring the normal legal recourse, Adolin has undermined the very laws he is supposed to be upholding - and worse, not only would he do it again, but by hiding those actions (which seems the likely outcome by SA4) he brings Dalinar down with him by breaking those laws. Thus Sadeas' death could still have huge ramifications for the Kholin Princedom, and thus Alethkar and Roshar as a whole. He was amused - it's right there in the text. That is sadistic - definition: Pretty sure choking someone to death is extreme cruelty. I did an analysis above on these- I would agree that Shallan did commit murder on her father but that she displayed more guilt in that scene than Adolin has done since Sadeas' death. Remember by the time we first see Shallan in tWoK her father has been dead some time and she has had time to reconcile herself to it and yet she is still burying her guilt - indeed it is the 1st truth we see her speak (I am a murderer is not the same as I killed my father). I am not sure I agree with this. Remember it is Renarin that hugs Dalinar when he hits rock bottom in the flashback, not Adolin. Dalinar takes the lead when fighting Szeth ih the first attempt Szeth makes on his life. Dalinar doesn't put Adolin in the way of things when there is a better option (eg end of OB). But he does trust Adolin to manage when there isn't a better option. I think Adolin wants to feel useful and so acts like he is caring for Dalinar, but he doesn't need to and Dalinar in current events never suggests to Adolin that he needs or wants Adolin to take that role with him. Um there is this WoB which directly says he does have development That means that there is potential for growth throughout Adolin's time in the books. He has added a bigger role for Adolin and it is likely that as a result Adolin will get more development because he will be useful as a side character in multiple ways (discovery writing of a charcter allows this even more). I just don't see your evidence (sorry) - I mean the evidence is that BS picks up a theme (no matter the book) and runs with it. To a greater or lesser extent (depending on the amount of page time per character) all characters follow the themes that their story is written around. Why, in all the books, would Adolin be the exception to this? It doesn't have to come from within. It can come from an external source and there are good in world reasons to expect that to happen, but you aren't willing to entertain that thought. I personally don't think that is how Odium works. I think he nudges events at most. Amaram was responsible for his actions. Moash is responisble for his. All Odium does is allow a void to form in place of the emotions that should be present. Then humans are quite capable of filling that void with hate on their own. I suspect he inspires hate in place of other emotions, but I think he first takes those emotions. And I don't think it has to be done consciously. We know Lin Davar was acting under Odium's influence, but it is unclear how much, how long, and indeed how it started. As I've said, I worry that Adolin will go dark on us, because of the murder, but I don't think he has to. I think he still has a choice. Hopefully he'll choose well. I agree. I actually don't mind Adolin not going dark. I just worry that he could. I believe if he goes dark, then he may not be redeemed. Not sure which WoB you mean? The one I quoted above calls Renarin a Pandora's Box which is a bit of a kick in the teeth to Renarin imo. I mean, I expect Renarin is more interesting to write because he has more of the main arc attached to him. I mean Odium can't see him. Which is pretty amazing. So that means Renarin has all kinds of cool stuff to write about - including his future sight. Adolin, being more ordinary is more ordinary to write. That doesn't make him a lesser person, but BS is a fantasy writer so he wants to write about magic etc. I suspect if the Maya arc goes the way that is hinted at, then he will enjoy writing Adolin more. Agreed. Indeed they both look to each other to hide from things they don't want to confront (Adolin looks to Shallan when he is resisting being king and she nods, and he is allowing her to keep her alts) I very much agree. It happens surprisngly frequently that people kill others accidentally because they lost control. Note that control is the most important thing for Dalinar - indeed Sadeas comments that Adolin and Dalinar are alike but that Adolin controls himself less securely. Adolin has the definite possibility of going a bit Dalinar. I just hope there is enough Evi in there to stop it going full Blackthorn So I take a slightly different view (see above) but I take your final point and agree that Adolin has either not chosen to explore his motivations thoroughly, or has already decided they were good and that is why he says he would do it again. So I think him being portrayed as perfect is a feature (not a bug) of us getting views of him from other people who are inclined to think well of him. He feels more real in his own PoVs. This. So much this. I'd also blame it on the fact that Adolin's PoVs are written in the moment largely. If he does spend hours in self-reflection we never see it. I agree though, that I don't see depth. I don't see depth between Kaladin and Shallan either, though I see more potential for depth in their case. Adolin has had a tendency to prefer "vapid" young women (according to Dalinar) and I am not sure we've seen enough of him value Shallan's more intellectual side. He seems largely uninterested in the scholarship - more interested in the art itself. OK, several long posts have come in since I started this and rather than try to catch up like I normally would, I think I need to post this and take a break. I'll comment again later if I have the time.
  6. This is a really interesting topic and I agree it is worth discussing in a bit more detail I instinctively feel that it is probably better to err on the side of caution with Sja-Anat - i.e. give her the opportunity to prove herself but don't assume that she's ok. I would be concerned that whilst she may be pulling away from Odium and is largely outside his control, it appears that she is not fully outside his control yet (assuming she was compelled to change the Oathgate spren despite her intentions towards the humans). This means that she may give information/help to Odium either against her will or accidentally. After all, as "the taker of secrets" it isn't clear where those secrets go... Regardling your comment on Ashertmarn, I personally suspect that Odium was either influencing it, or bonded to it in some way (I am not 100% convinced that Shallan heard "Wit" when she touched the spren) and that Ashertmarn, like a well trained animal, is bright enough to follow simple commands but not necessarily the intent of those commands. Given the way Shallan herself describes it, it doesn't seem "clever" - similar to how ReShephir feels, but perhaps a bit stupider. I don't personally doubt the veracity of the statement that Ashertmarn was following orders because Shallan herself didn't think she'd actually beaten it - unlike her encounter with ReShephir. The issue comes from whether Sja-Anat was also following orders and lied or not. Regarding your comment on Sja-Anat interacting with the Oathgate spren, I agree it is a little tricksy (watched LoTR Two Towers last night so my inner Gollum is coming through). That being said, it is clear that her ability to "warp" higher spren like Glys is relatively new - Mythica states she could only do "lesser spren", so perhaps the difference is not that surprising. As you yourself pointed out, there has been plenty of time for growth/change, and this may be a facet of that. I don't think the gate spren, despite their size, are that different from the spren who can form the nahel bond. Their size is likely more to do with their perception as guardians of Urithiru. It doesn't necessarily tell us much about Sja-Anat's motives though because it is unclear whether she knew they would end in Shadesmar or not and it isn't clear whether she lied to Odium or not about what happened. The one thing that strikes me as being in Sja-Anat's favour is Glys. I agree that Glys is Sja-Anat's "son". It makes sense both in that he is twisted but still able to make Renarin a pseudoTruthwatcher, and in that Odium seems unable to "see" Renarin in the diagram - likely as a result of his bond to Glys. This is not proof of Sja-Anat's intentions, but it at least proves that she is a wild-card because she is prepared to put things out there that may adversely affect the outcome for Odium. Sja-Anat was said to see her twisted creations as her children (from Mythica) so this also fits with Glys. The issue is that Glys himself doesn't seem to remember much before his change - so we don't know if it was voluntary or not. Lastly, I agree with your premise that growth/change is happening as a direct result of cultivation but my personal reasons are to do with @aemetha's comment below: I agree with the basic premise of this. I believe I posted a similar concept in another thread somewhere but I can't find it. I personally don't think that "the void" of Odium can create, he can only take stuff away and thus alter it. The important thing about this is that the spren of Roshar are all fragments of Honor and Cultivation's power. That means they each have a little bit of Cultivation in them - and this in theory, should give them a very slow capacity for change. It is why the nahel bond (likely a result of their link to Honor) grants them greater capacity to grow and learn than they have without it. I think that all the Unmade were, as mentioned above, either lesser spren or "nahel" type spren that were captured/coerced into giving up a part of themselves to become "unmade". Odium likely put more of his power into each of them whilst taking some of the power invested by Honor/Cultivation and thus they became unique individual spren rather than multitudes of smaller simpler spren. The thing is, if you took a bit of "Cultivation" out of the spren, in theory, it should grow back - its part of the intent of the shard after all. So perhaps the Unmade are getting back to being what they used to be but because of Odium's actions, the amount taken, Honor's death, or some other factor, this is a very slow process. My personal take on the UnMade is that they are related to the higherspren associated with each order of the KR except the bondsmiths. Its very much a working hypothesis and I have no evidence to support it over the ideas mentioned above. I am not sure that it matters hugely what their origins are so much as the fact that they seem to have the capacity for growth.
  7. @maxal I am honestly not sure it is a good idea for me to keep debating this - for one thing it seems totally clear to me that you've made up your mind and therefore there is nothing I can do to change it. This isn't an attack, but more of an observation. You seem to have closed your mind to the idea of further Adolin progression because 1 book which covered a period of (approx) 2 months in world didn't show huge character progression. Given that neither Shallan nor Kaladin (both MCs) show a huge amount of progression in the same period, I am simply not sure what you expected? I agree that Adolin didn't progress much. I don't see why you believe that he is going to remain the only static character in the story for the next 2 books (and possibly further). From what I can see, because of your disappointment you are unwilling to open yourself up to further disappointment, possibly at the risk of missing out on enjoying the theory crafting between books. I can see that you feel like your effort has gone to waste, but (a) I don't think it has - even for a non-fan like me, having someone around with encyclopedic knowledge of Adolin around is great (so even if the books pan out like you think, that effort is appreciated) and (b) the books aren't over yet - we have 7 more to go. If Adolin has no progression in that time he will be dropped as a side character - other "normal" characters will become more interesting as they will at least be novel. Anyway, I've quoted some of your points below that I particularly want to look at, but unless you want me to keep trying to convince you, I'm going to stop debating this with you - I don't want to cause either of us any unnecessary angst. For one thing, you don't seem to be interested in answering my questions. I disagree, I read plenty. He also trusts Adolin, which is more than he seems to do with Renarin - until the end of WoR anyway. Some quotes from tWoK are in the spoilers sections below (just in there so people can skip them if they want) I just can't see how this can be read as a lack of love - especially as Dalinar's behaviour to Adolin doesn't actually change - he still trusts him an enormous amount. I mean, he chooses to send him to Kholinar because he can be trusted so much. He won't force Adolin into a marriage because he wants Adolin to be happy. He allows Adolin to duel in part because he knows how much Adolin is giving up by not duelling. Yes he uses it as a means to an end as well, but he knows how much Adolin loves duelling so why not manage two good things? This doesn't explain my original point which was why Adolin? Anyone could have killed Sadeas and the outcome would have been the same - because people assumed it was done on Dalinar's orders. The fact that Adolin was the culprit hasn't been dealt with by the story at all. I believe it will be, based on WoB, and that it is something that should cause internal conflict. If it doesn't at least cause conflict within Adolin then you are undermining your own point that he isn't behaving like a sociopath because he should continue to struggle against guilt and try to justify it. Not only have we seen no guilt about the death, but we have seen little internal conflict about the lack of guilt. It is normal to have one or the other. On the other point. Odium doesn't "twist the minds of the weak". Do you think Amaram was weak? His strength of conviction is his own actions is what caused him to fall - he pushed himself too hard and so crumpled when he was finally made aware of his guilt (which he had tried to ignore). On top of that, Odium takes pain away subconsciously most of the time - subsuming it in other feelings. This is how both the Thrill and the Heart of the Revel work. It is not that those people consciously "gave up their pain" it is that another emotion covered it up, hiding the pain and making them able to ignore it. A bit like using alcohol or drugs to hide pain, you need more and more emotion to hide it and so you end up with less and less control. When Dalinar was under the sway of the Thrill we didn't see him consciously "give up" his pain or guilt - he only consciously held on to it at the end. Moash doesn't consciously give up his pain either - he just goes numb and is told the pain will be returned to him when he needs it. Adolin's lack of reaction looks to me like Moash's numbness and that was likely related to Odium. I don't assume that Adolin will fall like Moash has, although I think he has the possibility. I agree that if his lack of feeling regarding the murder is inherent to him then the self-deceit is a problem too. I am concerned that there is a supernatural element to his lack of reaction though - and therefore he may essentially be creating false memories of the event? Anyway, I can't prove it. I am also concerned that (given the lawful vs chaotic discussion before) Adolin's moral compass is less intrinsic to him and is actually more extrinsic. He knows how he should behave and follows those rules. This (to me) helps explain why he doesn't appear to question things like social rank, slavery, prostitution, starvation, and wholesale slaughter that he encounters every day. We don't see him discuss these things with anyone, he doesn't seem to question them and his behaviour whilst decent to individuals, does nothing to improve the lots of people he isn't directly interacting with. Its ok - most of us actually behave this way - it is difficult to change society, but Adolin is is a position to make things better and yet he doesn't. I would hope that if his moral compass is pointing "due Good" then we would see him act more to improve the lives of his people than we have seen thus far. If he is essentially "neutral" then I would expect him to maintain the status quo. Interestingly, as I was reading through Adolin sections in tWoK this morning, I realised that Adolin has held a grudge against Sadeas for far longer than anyone else. He is already against Sadeas at the beginning of tWoK - even though there is no specific moment that we see that seems to cause it. Sure, he can see Dalinar and Sadeas don't get along, but Dalinar gives him plenty of opportunity to come round with regards to his attitude to Sadeas before the Tower. The more I think about it, the more disturbing it is, because whilst the grudge makes sense in WoR, it doesn't actually make that much sense in tWoK - and yet we see him viscerally angry several times at Sadeas, even though the man hasn't actually done anything specific besides being obnoxious. It seems to be an excessive amount of feeling for a man who (to our knowledge) has not actually done anything specific against Dalinar or his House at that point. If anyone has insight on this I'd appreciate hearing it. Indeed - he actually thinks about killing Sadeas more than once and even threatens him verbally. Sadeas doesn't take it seriously (to his cost). Adolin doesn't seem to look for "justice" (note that Navani does - she writes a glyphward of it) at all during this time. The closest he gets is the idea of the duel, which is kind of ok given the way the court seems to handle this kind of thing. The thing is that Adolin wants him in the arena (or similar) before that and when he thinks about the duel it is for his own personal satisfaction rather than justice. Indeed, had Shallan not come up with the idea for the "boon" from the King, I think the rest of House Kholin would have been essentially content to just carry on and find another means of handling Sadeas (note that assassination is never discussed for example) that didn't resort to his death. They also want action against Sadeas, but none are so focused on it as Adolin. Sorry, no cultivationspren for you. You'll have to make do with being another order of KR
  8. I don't - what is this from? Also, I'm always looking for new books - is it worth reading? This is interesting. The problem is certainly partly timing. Moash would likely never have been given the opportunity to kill Elhokar in the normal scheme of things. I mean lets face it, had Kal not bonded a spren, Moash would likely have died in the Bridgecrews. Even if he hadn't, he wouldn't have got shards (because Kal wouldn't have won them in the arena - they'd have likely lost the bout) and if no end of the world, then we have no diagram = no attempt to replace Elhokar with Dalinar which mean so suppport from Graves et al. So I can kind of see Moash's position. He is driven by vengeance at this point (rather like Dalinar was at Rathelas - the 2nd time) and can't see clearly (imo). He has to use this opportunity despite the desolation because without the desolation he wouldn't have the opportunity. That being said, I feel like Dumbledore (lol - look at us both feeling like semi-all-knowing-mentor-archetypes) in that it is our choices, more than our abilities that define who we are. Moash could make a different decision - Kal did - but he is too far in at the moment imo - though I think redemption is possible, I suspect even in that arc he's going to meet a sticky end. I actually feel for Moash. He is in pain and has chosen one way to handle that pain. He can't let go of vengeance, possibly because he has held it too long, and also because it was his absence from Kholinar that he blames (in part) for the death of his grandparents, whereas Kaladin blames his presence for the death of his squad. That is a big thing. Moash feels the need to act to change the status quo to make up for his lack of action (he didn't know what had happened and he blames himself for not being there at act) when his grandparents were imprisoned. Awww shucks *blush* thanks To be honest, it is much easier when a lot of the leg work has already been done - as it was in this thread!
  9. I agree. "Ado" means light (at least in Alethi - and iirc Elantris) and you cannot have shadows without light. It seems reasonable that there would be a link. It would be good to have more information regarding the meanings of words. I must admit I assumed that the shattering of the Plains was to do with the death of Honor - perhaps a side effect of his death? Perhaps even related to him giving more investiture to the SF. Not sure that we have enough evidence to say one way or the other at this point.
  10. @Lightblessed I am honestly so touched that you enjoyed my analysis so much that you could turn it into truly beautiful poetry. I know it ultimately came down to Sanderson's writing but I am so glad to have played a tiny part in your creativity! With your permission, I would love to add this to the addenda for my essay when I get round to it? Would that be ok?
  11. Rlain surely? - the Listeners don't have sexual feelings except in Mateform afaik. And who doesn't want to imagine wild allomancer sex happening every night? I just want to know why I can't imagine it in the day too *Shhhh Phin, you're drunk*
  12. From what I remember, the orders we saw in Dalinar's vision of the Recreance were Windrunners and Edgedancers (were there others there?) If that is right, those are two orders who would be most opposed to the "accidental lobotomy" situation and may have balked immediately at the sight. Even if there were other orders there, what happened if they were ordered to kill the Parsh? It would be like when Adolin found himself slaughtering the singers at the end of WoR - and it was sickening. I don't think many people, KR or not, could take having to do that. The WR and ED would have likely been unable to kill the newly slaveform parshmen and may have been stuck between a rock and a hard place in terms of fulfilling their duty as KRs and obeying their oaths. If this is what happened, I for one would have forsworn my oaths on the spot. I know this is supposition, but it might fit. The KR were more hierarchical pre-Recreance - more like a proper army - than the autonomous group we see now. I suspect that the leaders of each order would not have been present at (?) Feverstone Keep because you don't put your generals on the frontline usually. Those leaders may well have been farther from the fighting and perhaps orders weren't changed quickly enough or they decided that they needed to order the slaughter of the Parsh anyway for the continued safety of Roshar. Those on site may not have been able to stomach the slaughter. It might explain why the Skybreakers could cope - they would follow the orders if their oaths allowed it?
  13. Annoyingly I can't find the original WoB but this kind one kind of references it: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/35-arcanum-unbounded-hoboken-signing/#e4826 I'll keep looking and try to remember to edit this post with it when I post it (i'll tag you again) Wooo Shiny I am pleased, I was one of the boring ones thinking it needed to be three (for more growth later). Means we'll get more Dalinar awesome when he levels up again! And this is even more true is Adolin is slated to survive all 10 books. I mean if Kaladin is slated to die in book 5, then he would be at 3 of 5 in terms of his growth. If Adolin gets 10 books then he needs less time per book to get the same development. I personally think Adolin is wearing a redshirt (Star Trek reference for those who don't get it) so his time is limited, but most of us don't yet have enough reason to either want him dead or mourn him the way his family would if he were to die. We still need a bit more movement on this.
  14. Yes I agree with you completely. I enjoyed OB, but WoR is definitely my favourite so far. I'd go so far as to say tWoK has wonderful scenes, WoR has wonderful sequences (ie more than one scene tied together) and OB has wonderful moments as you said. Those moments might be better than other moments in tWoK or WoR (tho personally I am not so sure about this - eg, Kaladin's 3rd Oath is huge and links to previous scenes - eg Fleet kept running) but overall I was less immersed in the book than I had been for either tWoK or WoR because I didn't just get lost in the story for the same length of time. There are also some threads that are left hanging from WoR/tWoK essentially because it was "too early" to start tying them up yet. I expect SA4 to have more answers/resolutions than OB had as a result. On top of that WoR had a better sense of contrast imo - it went between light and dark much more fluidly. Most of OB felt "dark" in comparison - with good reason given the story, but that lack of "light" meant that the constant "darkness" became oppressive at times. It works as a theme for what is happening and I think it conveys both Dalinar as a person and also what Roshar is going through marvellously, but it also makes me like it less (despite the obvious skill with which it was written).
  15. I am on board with Navani --> Sibling. She attracts gloryspren in huge numbers when she marries Dalinar (likely associated with Bondsmith as the "lesser spren") She is hugely invested (pun intended) in "civic planning" like sewers - and the Sibling will make Urithiru work (eg the plumbing etc will work properly again) She takes her oaths seriously - she admits to having broken some, but from what we know, she was faithful to Gavilar (for example) despite suggesting that she had reason not to be. We don't know what oaths she broke but the Stormfather doesn't seem to be too annoyed about it. She is knowledgable about fbrials and their uses - and as already pointed out, Urithiru will likely be powered by the Sibling and the associated stormlight. She is likely to stay in permanent residence in Urithiru anyway - as one Bondsmith always did previously. She may have been sufficiently broken by Elhokar's death You are more likely to become Radiant if you are near other Radiants (WoB iirc states this) She has probably read the Way of Kings (inworld book) to Dalinar looads of times by now - which prompted both him and Gavilar to be proto-Bondsmiths She generally seems to be moving more towards being a uniting figure. Particularly since uniting herself with Dalinar Despite an implication in tWoK that Jasnah and Navani didn't get on that well, we see no evidence of this in OB - so they are getting closer too (uniting....) She genuinely wants to unite Roshar - a likely requirement for a Bondsmith in this current era. Ok, so I can see why Mr T may be a candidate but I think his inherent division (being in the alliance at Urithiru and an Agent of Odium) makes it difficult for him to be a proper contender - at least at the moment. I don't think his politics would matter to a spren per se, but he is in conflict with the rest of humanity and that is inherently divisive in my opinion. With regards to the Nightwatcher - I am sure this is the 3rd spren for the Bondmiths. Remember that the SF had more autonomy and awareness after he received extra investiture from Honor so it is reasonable that the NW would be less coherent and understand less of humans. On top of that, the SF has had a few months being bonded to Dalinar which has made him even more articulate. We know the NW is linked to Cultivation so it makes sense that this is her spren like the SF was Honor's. With regards to who could bond it, I am much less sure. I am not convinced we've seen the right person yet. Or perhaps, not seen enough of them yet - people who say Queen Fen, I am not disagreeing so much as wanting more evidence to sway my opinion. Cultivation is about growth - and perhaps order from chaos. I think we'd want to see someone who represents this. To me, Mr T fits it the best but as I said, I am not sure that his internal conflict will let him bond a spren. On top of that, can he be said to be "broken" when he isn't "broken" on his clever days and has no compassion?