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PhineasGage last won the day on January 7

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  1. She might - she could just hate him less than she hates the fused. The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend. Ultimately Maya is probably better off with Adolin alive and being decent to her than dead and her given to another human who might misuse her. Does it not seem reasonable to assume that a bonded blade is probably hurt not only when summoned but also when their bearer dies? Even if that isn't the case, an abused dog who hates their master will still do their bidding more willingly than the bidding of someone else. The slave mentality takes over.
  2. Hi all. Catch up time 'Fraid you have rather gone a bit strong on this one. I was trying to compare like with like - Adolin's actions with Lift's because we saw both of them make similar decisions in similar circumstances. I don't know why Lopen is a Radiant, but he must fulfill the necessary criteria for Brandon, or he wouldn't be one. Adolin clearly doesn't fit the ED mold (yet?) because otherwise he would be one. I don;t think it is reasonable to compare Lopen's progression with Adolin's for this reason. Let's be clear, being in danger is not necessary for progression of an order. Shallan progresses in non-deadly situations. Kaladin hasn't yet. Lopen has, Lift hasn't. This means it is more down to how that individual feels and when they as individuals are ready. Danger is immaterial. My point was that Adolin doesn't put himself in more danger in that moment the way Lift does - she was free and clear to get away but she goes back anyway. Adolin was in serious danger anyway, saving the kid did not (imo) put him in a much riskier position. Again though, this isn't a critiscm of Adolin, what he does is brave and good. But being a brave and good person does not automatically make you Radiant material. Indeed, from the very little we have seen of Malata (and one could even argue, Venli) "good" is so subjective to the spren that it is essentially irrelevant as an alignment. So let us be clear about what we actually know 1) They use Abrasion and Progression (it seems they access Abrasion earlier) 2) According to Nale: They were considered elegant things of beauty. But also would ignore things of great import in favor of smaller things, as some would see it. 3) They were "elegant and refined" and had a reputation for deadliness. 4) Their ideals are as follows: And even this list is not completely unbiased because we know Nale has limited sympathy for the order - he was quite dismissive of their attitude to "matters of greater importance". I'll even leave the stuff from Lift out of it to be clear here! Can we say Adolin meets these criteria? No, because they are way too open to interpretation. It doesn't mean that he doesn't meet them, it is just that there isn't enough evidence to push strongly in one way or another. How important is each aspect? Does it depend on the individual spren's choices? Can a character meet most but not all of the requirements? Does the spren know whether they can guide their potential Radiant down a specific path or not before they bond? We don;t know any of these facts and plenty more thus, we have limited evidence for Adolin becoming ED at best. I would be happier to agree he might become one in a normal setting. But re-awakening a blade? It's never been done before afaik - that is a step above the norm. Once she is awakened, maybe - but we know too little about how that is going to happen. Ultimately, extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence. I'm not saying that there isn't some canon to support the idea itmight happen, I just don't see enough to have people stand firmly in the "Adolin will be ED" camp - at best it is an hypothesis. I don't think you understood my point? I said that she is in a unique position - indeed i mentioned 3 specific circumstances that are unique to her. Her unique situation is in fact why i feel that who her bearer is, matters less than her proximity to the perpendicularity and the fact her bearer went into Shadesmar and gained an understanding of what/who she actually is. That is all likely important, but it doesn't automatically mean that Adolin matters - the evidence points to the specific set of circumstances and it is unclear whether any blade held by any bearer would have had the same re-awakening as Maya has, or whether Adolin's attitude matters. That is supremely unclear because we only have Adolin's example. Ultimately a spren and a Herald (given their very high levels of investiture) are not so different. Taln becomes more lucid during the perpendicularity, so does Maya. His definitely doesn't last - we don't know about hers. Adolin doesn't mention her again after the battle so we don't know what is happening there. Why not? Taln, as a hearald, holds a huge amount of investiture. A spren is investiture that has gained sentience. I don't think they are all that different really. Indeed, I think that they were shown to both be affected for a reason, and that reason has to be the perpendicularity. It wasn't coincidence that both gain lucidity that seems to wain as the realms move apart again. But she is bonded. It is a "false" bond i suppose you might say - but she has a bond with Adolin - it just isn't a Nahel bond. They "sync a heartbeat to their essense" (Syl says so in WoR) but they can be called and dsmissed and have some awareness. the sword Oathbringer recognises Dalainar - hence it whimpers rather than screams. So they aren't completely mindless, even prior to the perpendicularity. That doesn't mean Adolin is "healing" her - he might be, but it might be a facet of normal dead-blade behaviour as we see Maya "scream" at Shallan (when she holds her to open the path to Urithiru) but Dalinar only hears a whimper when he picks up OB - so they recognise people. Note that the SF specifically even says to Dalinar, "it hates you less than the others" or something to that effect. This implies that blades typically hate their bearers, at least a little bit. Maya might just hate Adolin less than (eg) Shallan, but that doesn't mean she doesn't hate him at all. Actually it is impossible. I cannot prove that there isn't an invisible pink unicorn that lives on the moon - I can only say we have never found any evidence of one which leads us to suggest that the likelihood is so small that we can say there is no invisible pink unicorn living on the moon. The arguement to counter it is always going to be "maybe you just haven't found the evidence yet". This is why if you want to make an extraordinary claim you need extraordinary evidence. In this case, whilst there is some canon evidence to support the idea of Adolin becoming ED by bonding Maya, there is enough contradictory evidence to suggest otherwise. Ultimately whether or not you believe depends on which evidence you find more compelling. Quick Science lesson - because I can Null Hypothesis and Hypothesis When trying to look at evidence you should use the idea of the null hypothesis and hypothesis to test your arguments. The null hypothesis is the "fall back position" - ie the result you will accept if you cannot "prove" the hypothesis. It therefore holds the "negative" view of any situation - eg this drug is no better than that drug. The hypothesis is the one you test against the hyptheisis - eg "this drug is better than that drug". In the case of Adolin therefore, the null hypothesis must be: "Adolin is not responsible for awakening Maya" And the hypothesis is: "Adolin is responsible for awakening Maya". Then you compare and contrast. I personally find the evidence too contradictory to allow me to go into the hypothesis camp. There is some evidence but given the presence of the perpendicularity we have a serious confounding factor that makes it impossible to say Adolin is responsible. We may find he is partly responsible, but there is good evidence that the perpendicularity is also at least in part responsible so therefore we need more evidence - or a way of removing the confounders - both of which will likely come in the next book. Confounders, for reference, are factors that independently affect the outcome of the results - they may bias us towards the hypothesis if they can't be accounted for and thus render the result next to useless. For a RL example: Drug X gives better results than Drug Y but if all the people taking Drug X are also taking Drug Z then can we be sure whether it is Drug X that is better, that Drug Z is better or is it the duel action of X+Z that matters? Can we trust the results of that study? No, not really, this is why we do big studies and put together big meta-analyses of studies to control for as many confounders as possible. I don't know. Just because I am a pascifist doesn't mean I can't be dangerous. Using violence as a last resort only doesn't automatcially mean you can't be "deadly" when you do finally use it. Not only that, in the quote from WoR it is unclear why the person felt "consternation" - what if they had been doing something bad/wrong and the EDs were there to have them imprisoned? It doesn't have to resulted in violence. Indeed "consternation" doesn't seem a strong enough feeling if you think you are about to be executed: consternation 1. a feeling of anxiety or dismay, typically at something unexpected. I don;t think we can comment one way or another on EDs pascifism - they may or may not have been pascifists. Note, however that given their attributes "loving" and "healing" it seems reasonable to conclude that violence was not going to be their first choice. I largely agree with this. The Good Samaritan was a story about helping your perceived enemies. This isn't Adolin - not yet anyway. He is a good person, but he still has clear ideas on "us and them". Thats fine and normal. Lift, in a way also doesn't actually do "Good Samaritan" stuff but from a completely different point - she doesn't see "us and them" at all really - anyone who needs hep should get it as far as she is concerned. I think my main disagreement with what yo have said is the idea that the growth has to come before the bond is formed. The way I see it, the Nahel bond isn't about the spren finding the perfect candidate and then bonding them. It's about the spren finding someone who could maybe, possibly, eventually become the perfect candidate and bonding them, and then working towards that goal through trying to understand and live a series of ideals guiding how the perfect candidate would live. I think I get what you are saying, but I think Vissy's point was that Adolin doesn't even meet minimum requirements yet, not that he needs to be perfect. I agree that growth needs to happen after. Plant analogy (because cultivationspren) - to become a particular type of tree you need to be a particular kind of seed. If we have an acorn, that seed can only become an oak tree. It isn't going to become a beech tree no matter how well you tend it. Unlike seeds, people can change so, if Adolin is currently an acorn, but Maya wants him to be a beech tree, he needs to become a beechnut before she can help him grow into a beech tree. And most importantly, from an external perspective - does it matter whether as a person Adolin is an oak or a beech tree - both trees are amazing in their own ways - will he be a "better" tree if he is beech than if he stays as an "oak"? I personally think while I would like to see more growth from Adolin (as a means to furterhing the overall story) I don't mind what kind of tree he comes. If he becomes an ED and it further the story, great, if not, and it furthers the story, that is also great. Yes. This is why i don't subscribe to the theory. The hypothesis has merits, but because of the extraordinary circumstances needed to achieve the outcome I don't think we are quite there yet in terms of the evidence. This rather depends on the definition of pacifist. 1. a person who believes that war and violence are unjustifiable. 2. holding the belief that war and violence are unjustifiable. You can believe they are unjustifiable but still participate in a battle. Like @SLNC said, you can be a non-combat person on a battlefield. Even if we assume you are acting with deadly force, that doesn't mean you have to like it. Have we seen Kaladin kill anyone since WoR? He didn't even kill Szeth. He acts as a dodge-tank primarily, not an off tank - he clearly isn't a pacifist but he also clearly doesn't like killing. The situation is not black and white. I think the main argument is that the only ED we know, and her spren, are against killing as an option. Sure, she might be an extremist in these views, but does it not seem likely that an order following the ideals of loving and healing would at least not enjoy killing? The issue is that what is the person terrified of? It could easily be that he is terrified of (eg) character assassination, not actually being killed. His power could be taken away, for example - that inspires terror in politicians - especially authoritative ones. Not to be too political, but let's face it Donald Trump is terrified of the Mueller investigation - and with good reason - it has the power to undermine his authority. Whether you think he did anything wrong or not is immaterial - either he is guilty and is worried what a fair investigation will find, or he is innocent and scared of what a corrupt investigation would find. Both, with good reason, can inspire fear in a reasonable person. Just because you can be deadly, doesn't mean you have to be. Kaladin is literally branded with the word dangerous (well, the glyph, but whatever) but actually we haven't seen him specifically kill anyone since WoR and even that was retconned (I haven't read/seen the retconned version) so I believe in fact his last "official" kill would be tWoK? But I bet you would still call him deadly because if he needed to, he can be deadly - look at the chasmfiend. Side note, a little off topic, but loosely related: I had an interesting conversation with my SO about Greek tragedy. Just for quick reference, the classic ancient Greek tragedy essentially revolves around stuff going wrong because of deliberate actions taken by the protagonist. Usually a kind of "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" type story. There are some situations of misfortune that are not attributed to the character for whom the tragedy is playing out, but their actions in response to those situations are what ultimately cause them to fall. I would argue that Adolin possibly falls into this trope - although obviously we haven't got far enough in his story yet to be sure. To be clear, the traditional storyline revolves around an opening action that is a terrible crime but that the protagonist does not recognise as a "bad" action. The stage is set then for a gradual collapse of that character's world, and nothing they do helps them redeem themselves - indeed usually further actions hasten their downfall. To compare, Kaladin's "failures" occur for one of two reasons - either he is undermined by external forces (escapes as a slave failing because he lacked the resources to succeed) or he fails to act (the near assassination of Elhokar and Syl's death). These do not fit the classic tragedy mold. Likewise, Shallan's "failures" occur through outside agency that she failed to take account of (the poor in Kholinar being used by another group to get to her) or through direct outside agency (the abuse of herself and her brother's). The closest aspect to the classic tragedy is the murder of both her parents, however because Shallan herself does not actually justify her own actions in either case it doesn't actually fit the mold. Both could, however potentially be set up for the cause of a classic Greek tragedy storyline if she starts justifying herself - it would a bit off script, but it would still fit the general idea of the mold. Dalinar, in contrast, has multiple failures etc but they all stem from him getting his "just desserts" as a result of being a villain (as the Blackthorn). This is an important difference with the classic Greek tragedy where the protagonist is sympathetic, not villainous. Indeed, his (typically the protagonist is male) actions, in the moment are, at worst, seen as morally questionable, but necessary evils. Interestingly, Aristotle wrote in his "Poetics": ""Tragedy is, therefore, an imitation (mimēsis) of a noble and complete action [...] which through compassion and fear produces purification of the passions." I would argue that therefore having a "tragic" character in the cast in SA fits very well because of the themes being explored around passion and responsibility. Adolin, who feels the most like the "classic hero" is the best candidate from a purely meta perspective to fit this role because it is the heroes of Greek mythology who were most likely to become victims of a tragedy. For example Hercules, Agamemnon, Odysseus, Achilles all had tragic storylines. The interesting thing is that during the progression of the story there would be highs and lows but ultimately the descent is inexorable. Each "good" action is proven to result in a bad outcome because the "good action" was not actually as good as it initially appeared. Thus, even if Adolin does bond Maya, if he is indeed following a classic Greek Tragedy arc, it may not be a good thing at all.
  3. So I'm not keen on Adolin being an Edgedancer. Mainly because I just don't see enough evidence that he fits the mold. Let me go through some points people tend to bring up about Adolin's suitability; 1) He saves people in need - eg child in TC, the prostitute etc. True, he does. This does not automatically mean he is ED material. Most people in such circumstances are actually decent enough to help others. I'm not suggesting Adolin isn't being a good guy in those circumstances, because of course he is. My point is that does this show he acts in such a way as to make him ED appropriate? Let's compare with our only know ED, Lift. Lift knowingly goes back into a palace to save Gawx even though she is being hunted by Nalan and saving Gawx will likely get her caught. She puts his safety and needs ahead of her own. I don't think we see Adolin really do this - he was already fighting the Thunderclast when he saves the kid in TC - he made the kid more vulnerable because of proximity - saving them was essentially trying to right the situation he'd (accidentlly) caused. Again, this doesn't make Adolin bad because he isn't - he just isn't trying to save someone who is a) to all intents and purposes already dead (NB Gawx's throat had been slit) and b ) he isn't putting himself in more harm by doing so. Now let's look at the prostitute situation. Yes he goes to help her and stop her getting beaten up by a Sadeas soldier/officer. Great, that's a good thing. Does he actually try to make her life better in any other way though? No, he helps her in the immediate setting but let's face it, even if she moved to a safer war camp, she probably continued in her profession. Whilst I don't blame him for this, prostitution is a job filled with risks, violence, drug addiction, disease amongst them. Adolin doesn't ever make any effort to right these situations despite the fact that he actually has some power to do so as a highly ranked noble who can alter the course of the way Alethi society treats people. Lift, in comparison makes more effort to help people in a wider sense, especially those at the bottom of society. From we see in the memory crystals - the EDs were the group who spent their time at the closing of Urithiru helping the ordinary people get away - rather than recording their thoughts for posterity. Adolin is decent to people below him on the social ladder, but he doesn't really make any effort to make their lives better - he just makes sure the lives of his people are better than the lives of other highprinces. That doesn't mean that the lives of his people couldn't be improved further. 2) He remembers people - eg the friends he lost at the Tower, his mother. Well really? I mean who forgets their friends and mum after they are dead? Remembering those who have been forgotten means thinking about people that others have forgotten - Evi is clearly not universally forgotten - hence we spent 2.5 books thinking of her as Shshsh because she had come up in conversation enough. Just because Dalinar had forotten her doesn;t automatically make Adolin ED material. I bet Renarin remembered her too but no-one is asking why he is TW not ED. Adolin does spend a great deal of energy thinking about lost friends and blaming Sadeas. That's fine. But how much time does he spend thinking about the lives lost from the ordinary foot soldiers etc? He wasn't friends with all of them? Also, it was a horrific situation so it is bound to prey on his mind. Is his reaction so very unusual? I personally don't think so. I would be very surprised if other survivors from that disaster didn't also feel the same way yet we aren't talking about expecting a sudden surge of EDs amongst their ranks. Later, we see him lose his mother's chain, but not once does that come up in his inner thoughts. Why? Wasn't it an important memento of her? Seems something he has brushed off. We see him dismiss it before he goes out to fight and then it never appears again in his thoughts throughout the next 1.5 books. So how important was it to him? A single line of a twinge of regret or guilt about losing it would have negated this argument entirely. Finally, we see both Kaladin and Shallan think a lot about the ordinary people of Kholinar while they are there. Shallan goes out of her way to help them (it backfires but at least she tries) but we don't see Adolin think this way or discuss these ideas. He is more concerned with the greater picture of regaining the city as a strategic point. He isn't wrong in this - but Edgedancers (as Nalan says) were concerned with the small detail stuff, not the bigger picture. Adolin just doesn't fit this mold. 3) Maya is waking up Yes, it happens during/immediately after Dalinar creates the perpendicularity. Taln also temporaily got his mind back as a result - Adolin clearly had nothing to do with that. Adolin's treatment of the word might be unusual, but we don't actually know that - he is the only duellist we've seen in his pre-match rituals - maybe every other shardbearer does something similar? We just don't know. What we do know is that Maya has gone through a number of unique situations: A ) Her bearer entered Shadesmar (NB prior to the Recreance people entering Shadesmar would have been bonded to live spren, not deadeyes) and saw her "true" form. B ) She was not only near the perpendicularity, she actually went through it C ) She was summoned and dismissed in the vicinity of the perpendicularity a number of times whilst she had sentience. This may have reinforced her mind/body connection - there were very few dead shardblades at the battle of TC so we have no info to compare her situation. My point here is that whilst Adolin's treatment of her may have helped her reconnect, doesn't it seem much more likely that the perpendicularity (a completely unique event in the cosmere afaik) was actually the catalyst of her revival? Granted that Adolin's understanding of her true nature probably made him more receptive to hearing her voice and thus we get reinforcement of her mind/body connection, but it seems unlikely that without the perpendicularity that he would ever have revived her. So, with this in mind, can she be revived fully? And if so, will they automatically be bonded? I would postulate no. Adolin has, ultimately, committed a murder. In my opinion he doesn't meet the necessary criteria to maintain a bond with a cultivationspren in the first place a a result - Lift clearly states she is happy to steal food from wealthy people who can afford it, but she is not interested at all in hurting them. Adolin not only killed Sadeas, he enjoyed it (NB felt amused and later feels proud of it). So perhaps he helps Maya revive, but I can't see him becoming an ED without some serious changes. Not only that, but after the battle of TC we don't see him think about her again - granted this may be because he gets limited page time, but that hardly shouts about how good he is at remembering the forgotten - we'll have to see in the next book. I doubt we will open up chapter 1 and find him already bonded, and if that hasn't happened in the 1 year timeskip I would guess it either won't happen at all or Adolin will have to change dramatically to become eligible for the bond.
  4. Hi maxal, which WoB do you mean? The one regarding him tending to unconsciously self sabotage himself in relationships? If so, doesn't the fact that it is subconscious rather undermine you point about him feeling unworthy? The canon (ie the book not the WoBs) supports both the read of homosexuality and the absence of it because Adolin has not specifically confronted this idea and either confirmed or refuted it. Thus it is surely open to interpretation? I happen to agree that Adolin probably isn't meant to be gay, the point is that the canon actually allows him to be, We are not arguing this over Kaladin because everyone here seems to feel that there are no Kal thoughts that trend towards attraction to Adolin (or any other man for that matter) which is a strong contrast to how we see Adolin think where we see him more poetic about Kaladin even than Shallan. It opens up the possibility and thus the discussion. Edit: for clarity this is the WoB I am talking about:
  5. I must say that Alethkar being ok with homosexuality strikes me a a bit odd. I mean they heavily divide the gender roles such that I don't quite see how it would work for a same-sex couple to easily operate - for example men can't read/write the full language meaning they need female relatives to scribe for them including in the business world. I also got the impression that business itself belongs in the "male province" of gendered occupations so a woman couldn't operate a business without a man? I would ahve thought that a society that heavily dictates what a man or woman can or can't do, even in their leisure time, would also be highly dictatorial about how romance would operate? Perhaps it is less dogmatic for darkeyes (hence Drehy is not maligned) and it would be harder for Adolin to come out? To be clear, I'm not saying that Alethkar being liberal in this regard is a bad thing, i'm just not sure I find it believable - societies in which homosexuality is accepted often do not restrict the behaviour of men in any regard (tho tradionally women have always been restricted in both their occupations and their expression of sexuality) - I'm think for example about ancient Greece here - Athens particularly - where homosexuality amongst men was considered perfectly acceptable, but men still needed to get married etc in order to have children. Women, in contrast were essentially relegated to the role of housewife/mother with no choice in the matter. Thoughts? Or is this too off topic?
  6. I agree, although I wonder if he would be less effective if he did it consciously? He is writing more instinctively (perhaps?) at this point and may not be aiming at Adolin being gay/bi and therefore this aspect of the character is coming out (pun intended) essentially by mistake. I think his own concern about his ability to do a same-sex relationship justice might make it feel stilted to read? If he can relax into it, then I agree he could do very well, but until he feels he can relax, he might not manage the tone the way it appears between Kaladin and Adolin (esp from Adolin's side). (BTW @Comatose I really appreciate your comment confirming this is your personal opinion - it did come across that way, but the confirmation opens the door to dissenting view greatly and is a welcome addition! Thankyou!) Back to the main aspect of this thread, as @Dreamstorm knows, I heavily ship Shalladin, but I can definitely get behind Kadolin as either an AU/fanfic idea because the canon background is definitely there. For me, Kaladin reads as straight - no, ifs or buts, I'm afraid, but if there are genuine seeds of romantic affection here, I personally would want it to be one sided on Adolin's part. It would be an interesting arc of genuine unrequited love which we haven't seen from Sanderon (iirc - perhaps if there are good examples but I can't think of any?) 2nd Mistborn trilogy spoiler: I could see this adding well into the storyline in terms of a conflict within Adolin - his desire to be perceived as the perfect prince (ok that may be a bit hyperbolic, but he does make a serious effort) and his perfect marriage to Shallan, versus his own desires. It would be an interesting idea that actually Shallan and Adolin would break up because of Adolin's feelings for Kaladin - currently I personally don't have high hopes for Shallan/Adolin (as is well known) and this would be a much more interesting turn of events than Shallan deciding she has made a mistake (well I think so anyway - it is less predictable). As to comments regarding the idea of making it a threesome, I personally don't see it. I can see Shadolin (I don't like it at the moment, but I can see it working longer term), Shalladin, and Kadolin all having potential, but the idea of it being an all in doesn't sit right with me - there is too much conflict. I am not against the concept in principle, but I can't see these particular three characters reconciling their differences well enough as 3 equal partners in a stable manner - it (to me) only works if there is a pair and a singleton where the reconciliation happens on different levels, probably after a great deal of conflict. If someone could explain to me how conflicts like the Sadeas murder (which I see Kal having problems with), the death of Helaran (which is obviously bother ing Shallan) and the huge lies/absence of truths that Adolin has got from Shallan while she has opened up (in part) to Kaladin could all be resolved satisfactorily? I don't see those all being fixed whist maintaining the level of trust needed between all partners to have a three-way relationship.
  7. Ha actually this is kind of the opposite of what i meant - I don't personally care about my own votes - I know I've written posts that I could have written better etc. But if I see a "popular" post by someone else it might make me think more about that post - particularly if I view them as having attacked me. This is the issue - it is the implicit community agreement that I should be attacked that is the issue. This is obviously then worsened if the poster is not disciplined by a moderator - obviously in dismissive posts I can see why the line can be hard to discern as to whether mod intervention is necessary, but it will hardly lead me to feel I can go to the mods for support. People give upvotes for different reasons. Personally, I always try to upvote well sourced comments with well reasoned arguments, even if I don't agree with them, however many people will simply upvote because they agree with the premise of the post. We don't know why people are getting votes and when you feel under threat, those liked posts can make it feel like everyone is piling on you. Unless you are the only person being dismissive in a large thread, dismissing people is always going to stifle discussion. You've lost a voice that could have been valuable but you've suppressed them by making them feel like their contribution is pointless. Sorry, but every time a moderator posts their personal opinion it is an abuse of power. This is because there is an imbalance of power. Mods should not be allowed to post their opinions unless they have no mod rights in the threads they want to participate in. I don't remember this being a problem in other fora I've participated in - it is usually possible to segregate which areas mods can effect change and which they can participate in. Its a trade off - power for freedom. On top of that, it doesn't feel subtle, it feels like those who are well known to mods get treated differently to those of us who aren't. The longer you have been here, the more likely you are to a) know the mods, at least within the site, and B ) have shaped the "mainstream" view. This should go without saying. The fact that it doesn't should worry you. The fact is that people are self censoring because they don't trust the community to be open for genuine debate and don't trust the mods to make sure their posts get fair shake. A well written, well sourced post should get proper debate with well sourced replies. The fact is that often people just turn round and say "well I don't agree" and don't engage properly. Asking for reasonable debate is ignored so people get mad and then when the mods get involved it feels like it is the opinion that is the problem, not the anger. It reinforces the idea that mainstream ideas are supported (because they don't have these problems) and fringe ideas are not. I'm not saying this is a deliberate action by the mod team - indeed I expect it is the complete opposite of it. I am sure you are all doing your best, it is the nature of fora like this to have moderation issues occasionally. It was an inevitability when we got a more contentious book to discuss. It, however, is your job to protect people from feeling like they aren't welcome. If you feel like your opinions aren't welcome, why should you as an individual feel welcome? I mean, it isn't like we are advocating dangerous ideas or politics etc, it's a book. So in a way, a bit like a government, you should protect minorities simply because they don't have the power of the masses. I feel you may have had the right idea but honestly, it probably could have been handled better. I am back because the thread got closed after all I do agree that a sub forum specifically for character discussion is a good idea, but why is a mega-thread a problem? stick it in there with the others and encourage people to have basic level discussions there as well as gain a sense of community of shippers but also encourage people to have deeper more specific discussions in separate threads within the same board. I can tell you that most of us would have rather had multiple threads within which we could participate but honestly, there were a few threads that got opened up in the main board but they got pounced on and people stopped contributing. In theory a separate board would help prevent that - if you don't like shipping, don't go there. As a percentage of all new members? Because when I've modded before it is still a much smaller proportion than the complaints made by established members. Granted this is a much bigger undertaking than I've modded before. That isn't quite what I said, but it doesn't matter. This comment shows how differently mods can handle the same problems - you go with private PMs, others go with public shaming. Shouldn't there be a protocol in place as to how to handle things to make handling as uniform across the mods as possible? I don't know but IMO a public post about a user should only be made after deliberation has been made, and even then only in rare circumstances, rather than an initial handling matter. If a thread is getting heated, a temporary closure of the thread (with a quick note to say it is essentially a timeout, no naming/shaming) to give the mod time to contact anyone they feel is involved as well as time for everyone to cool down seems reasonable - but multiple posts in public where the user being disciplined can react badly just seems likely to go bad. It often polarises the thread further and can make the mod look really bad and biased. *Shrugs* you know the team better than I do. I've seen it work just fine elsewhere. It is more work to set up though and needs a big mod team to ensure good coverage. It was just a suggestion.
  8. And this shows bias. You are giving the benefit of the doubt to the names you know but given your comments, it seems less likely that you will be equally forgiving to newer members because you haven't established that they also are likely not trying to give offence. So then we see newer members get public warnings because they go past the line, but older members may get PMs because they probably skirted it or at least because they are given the benefit of the doubt are perceived to have skirted it. This whole idea that as a newer member you feel comfortable reporting someone "older", especially if you have seen them defended elsewhere in the forum. How often does that actually happen? Probably not that often - new members post less, lurk more and likely try to avoid rocking the boat until they understand the lay of the land (pls forgive mixed metaphors!) I wasn't present for this event so I don't have first hand experience of it, but simply from your own words this seems very flawed. A member came into a thread and proceeded to break the rules. Was she put on moderation? Was she banned? We have no idea that any real discipline was carried out and she wasn't publically shamed like a new member would have been in the same circumstance. And why did this happen? According to you it is because she is your friend. You just had a chat. How is this ok? This proves that there is bias again. Indeed, it is even worse than I thought! Why wasn't a post made by a moderator at least acknowledging this - can it not be seen that this has the effect of making people feel like as long as you know the mods, you're golden? So the problem here is that most people avoid confrontation in all walks of life. Confronting someone is hard, especially when you look at someone's reputation and see it is something like yours - "God of Colour" which suggests your posts are well liked by the community as a whole. I agree with you that we need more openness between each other but I genuinely don't see how it would work for most people - most of us see criticism and get defensive which then locks us up to improving things (storms, I know I do!). Indeed I can think of several examples where such discussion was attempted but then ignored by the original poster. I applaud you for accepting blame for some events in the past ( I don't know what they are, but it is big of you to accept responsibility). Personally I think public shaming is not useful - it causes defensiveness which then prevents a change in behaviour. A PM with an explanation about why the post is a problem is going to be more effective with more people (you can even have C+Ped sections in to make them quick to write!). Additionally, having dedicated mods for each sub forum or even each thread (mods that can only post as mods, and not with personal opinions) will also help because then the rules will be applied more consistently within a specific thread/sub forum rather than the way they are at the moment where sometimes someone steps in publicly and other times something seems to happen offscreen which is presumably from a different moderator and the problem resolves with less fanfare. It doesn't matter if the rules aren't consistent between threads, as long as they are consistent within them - you'd get used to the rules in the threads you tend to use. Currently mods post personal opinions as moderators. This makes it appear to be an "approved" opinion. It can sway opinion massively - authority is a huge factor when it comes to holding opinions, even in something so unimportant as opinions on a work of fiction - indeed if authority can make people "torture" people (they believed they were, but it was just a lab test) then it can definitely make people rethink their ideas and start conforming to the mainstream with a book.
  9. So it is good to know that this concern is being considered properly and I am very grateful to you @Mestiv for moving this post. I would like to say I agree with @Dreamstorm's post almost entirely, and whilst the criticisms may not reflect the actual nature of things they do show how the system can be perceived, particularly if you feel like you are member of those with "fringe" theories and beliefs. Perception is important when it comes to discipline. So I agree, but I do have a question. When a post is dismissive in a way that could be perceived as aggressive (passive-aggressive?) should that be reported? I ask because in my opinion, much of the problem here, and elsewhere is when people feel dismissed by "older" members and then lash out in anger - indeed, I'm pretty sure this is exactly what happened in the thread this was originally posted in. If not, it has certainly happened elsewhere. That doesn't excuse lashing out, but frankly, the dismissive comments whilst often as hurtful as insults (neglect is as harmful as abuse after all) do not get moderated the way abuse does. If there isn't a direct insult it just gets left. I think that is a problem. Additionally, how do we deal with it? I mean, someone might sound dismissive without meaning to - it is easier than to insult without meaning to. They might get reported even though it was just that they were on their phone, got interrupted mid post and posted without thinking it through completely. Its a reasonable scenario to imagine as I am sure many of us have done just that! On top of that, the liking system adds additional factors here. For example, a dismissive post that states "mainstream" opinions will often get a lot of likes because the majority of readers will hold the same opinion,. It doesn't matter whether they agree with the dismissal or not, it validates that person and also undermines the person they were originally commenting to because it simply proves how many members of the community disagree with them, as well as reinforces the idea of being dismissed by the community as a whole. This is worsened even further when a popular post is then flagged. Honestly, other than for stroking our own egos, what does the liking system even add? Well I know I've certainly decided not to post in certain threads because there is just no point - my opinions will just be dismissed as irrelevant. It's more insidious than cencorship - it is self-censorship because the majority will drown you out and dismiss you so why bother posting in the first place? On top of that, defence of your opinions tends to get you shouted at by mods (although usually because defence tends to get heated - and people do need to watch how they behave so mod input is usually necessary).... but you don't need to defend those opinions if you hold the majority view, only if you have minority ideas.
  10. AGain, I disagree with this. Adolin is decently sensitive, but not extraordinarily so. If he were, we would see him make intuitive leaps with people much more frequently. I'm not saying he's insensitive, just that he isn't more sensitive than most of our other characters. Lets look at some: 1) Shallan - she is very intuitive and often knows the right thing to say on an instinctive level to get people to support her. She reads Adolin very well - although some of this is because he is an easier read anyway. That beings said, she approaches the deserters, Dalinar, even Navani, in ways that gain their trust really quickly. In Shallan's case she is mostly doing it to manipulate them - indeed exceptionally emotionally sensitive people are the best at manipulation because they can appear as they need to to gain their own ends. 2) Kaladin - I'd put Kaladin and Adolin in a similar place here. Kaladin also reads certain people much better than others - but for me, he reads Shallan better than Adolin does. He is insensitive to Lyn, because of a prejudice, but overall is good about reading the mood of his men. He reads Adolin and Dalinar well once he gets passed the lighteyes prejudice he has. Like Adolin, he reads men better than women. Hardly a surprise. The reason I put these two men on an even keel is multifold: 1) from a litereary perspective, they are clearly meant to represent mirrors/foils to one another - perhaps running along the "hero" and "lancer" trope. They either reflect each other through similarity or through distinct differences. I see this as being one of the similarities. 2) We see both Adolin and Kaladin misunderstand people on multiple occasions, but see the truth of things on other occasions. It is the differences in these episodes that drives their narratives. From my perspective, they see and miss almost opposite things. For example in WoR, Kaladin sees Shallan's distress in the carriage and Adolin misses it. I know we don't see Adolin's perspective, but assuming we are meant to think Kaladin is right in his assessment, then Adolin does noss Shallan being upset. This is something that is displayed time and time again with Shallan. On the other hand, Adolin interacts well with darkeyes etc that he has only just met. He relates well to Drehy and Skar - perhaps is even more friendly with them than Kaladin, and while that may not be advisable, he certainly reads them better than Kaladin does now on a personal level. 3) Dalinar - doesn't read either of his sons that well imo, though he is getting better at reading Renarin. He reads Adolin better than Renarin because they have more in common. I think he views Adolin in particular with rose-coloured glasses - he feels Adolin is a better man than he is for example, and whilst that is obviously true that Adolin is better at 23 than Dalinar was at the same age, I personally feel it is less clear cut now - Dalinar has made great strides in becoming a better man than he was - Adolin, on the other hand is not making such a journey- albeit because he started as a better person anyway. He reads Navani well now, but clearly didn't trust his read of her in the past. I feel that Dalinar, more so than either Adolin or Kaladin for example, tends to read men better than women. He manages better with people who are "mentally direct" - which is why he struggles with the diplomacy side of his new role. He will likely improve with practice. I don't see Adolin getting better or worse than he is at present because as far as we know his new role as HighPrince won't change the way he has to interact with people. I am prepared to be wrong on this, but growth will only come if he has to change his current methods - I don't see that being a thing for him - in part because there is going to be a timeskip so huge character growth is very unlikely for any of our characters. 4) Jasnah - also doesn't read people brilliantly - she is probably the least emotionally sensitive person we have in the cast. She is certainly worse than Adolin on this level. SHe is more concerned with the logical thought processes than the emotional ones. I suspect she is getting better though - indeed the admission of not appreciating Shallan's artistic skill is possibly a first step to admitting that the emotional side of people is as important as the intellectual side. I think this works well from a literary perspective because she is the opposite to Shallan on this trait and this gives them a series of interesting conflicts - eg the thieves in Khrabranth among others. 5) Renarin - in my mind, Renarin is the most sensitive member of our cast. Remember he is seeing things about people's behaviour (including but possibly not limited to future sight) and is still not judgemental. Lets be clear, he sees Jasnah kill him, and doesn't fight back or even disagree with her position. He sees Dalinar fall to the influence of the Thrill and doesn't blame him, he simply mourns the loss of his father. He is the son who actually helps Dalinar start coming to terms with the terrible father he has been by supporting him when Dalinar hits rock bottom. And this is especially hard for Renarin because he is not actually comfortable around people. I suspect people find him off putting almost because he can read them too well. He sees through the masks that people wear. Adolin even more or less tells us that only Renarin really knows him. So, again, for me Adolin is fine at this, but not the best. We have no demonstrations of exceptional reading, and plenty of episodes of misunderstandings/missed issues. Let me clear, that's normal - very few people are exceptional at this because we are all too selfish, but most of us are at least ok at it because it is a useful skill for a human being to have. Adolin may be above average, but that doesn't make hi the best. But he missed her fear completely. I don't blame him for missing him but he cannot be extraordinary at reading people if he misses this. He may be decent, but you are claiming that he is the best and then saying that any examples of him not being the best don't count. I don't think anyone is saying Adolin is bad at reading people. But I don't think it is reasonable to say he is head and shoulders better than others when we have canon proof that he isn't extraordinary. Um, I don't think he is always tone deaf, but there are definitely examples of it. If we always say "oh it doesn't count because x or y" then we have to say the same for all out characters. Why was Kaladin tone-deaf with Lyn? Oh because he was distracted by other things at the time. It doesn't actually matter - he was tone deaf. It doesn't matter whether Adolin was excited to teach Shallan or not, he still missed it. Indeed, in both these circumstances, it is the fact that they ignore the reaction they are getting that makes the situation seem worse - if they were trying and failing to understand, then it would be sympathetic, but in both these cases both come off as a bit self-centred. I would argue that he comments a great deal on her appearance too. On top of that, it is debatable how much he actually knows her. After all, he doesn't recognise Veil as being a genuine part of Shallan as far as I can see. Their relationship is better than he has with Danlan, but that could be as much because Danlan is clearly there to infiltrate the Kholin household and is not actually that impressed with Adolin right from the start. We can't really use the Danlan relationship as a good example, except that she was also playing a part (as is Shallan) and that relationship clearly failed for some reason, which Adolin doesn't blame himself for (seems a reasonable conclusion imo) Why should Kaladin be sympathetic to Adolin? I mean, Kal is a former slave, not a social equal, not Adolin's friend, and Adolin himself resents how quickly Kaladin has become part of the household until only days before this interaction happens. Indeed he still somewhat distrusts Kaladin at this point because he worries that Kal and Szeth are working together. I don't see why Kaladin should be anything other than non-committal (which he is) at this stage - he isn't close to Adolin emotionally at this point. I don't think it is appropriate for Adolin to talk like this to someone who is obviously his subordinate - it muddies the professional relationship they are supposed to have. I don't know. It might be this, it might also be because if it doesn't work out he can't actually be blamed in quite the same way. Also, it puts as much pressure on Shallan to make it work as it does Adolin so she maybe won't run away the way some of the others seem to have done. I think Adolin could make it work if he actually did some introspection and spent some time thinking about why he fails. The fact is though that he doesn't do this at all - indeed he tries not to take responsibility half the time. We have PoV confirmation of this. Yes I agree - but he isn't interested in finding out what he is doing wrong, he wants it fixed for him. Well lots of things really: 1) Look at the way he knows all about wines. He has obviously spent time finding out about them even though he isn;t actually allowed to drink much 2) Look at the way he throws himself into learning to use his plate and blade. He is definitely unusual in his determination and does exactly what Zahel tells him. 3) He is amazed when he realises his futuresight is not perfect - he had assumed it must be - most people wouldn't in that position - they would assume some flaw or fight against it. Renarin doesn't 4) He shows Adolin a "perfected" version of himself when Renarin heals him in OB. He also "perfects " others when he heals them, by fixing things etc. 5) He heals his own vision (which was presumably always bad) suggesting that he had an idea of what "perfect" vision might be. 6) He is on the autistic spectrum, a series of traits that tend towards perfectionism Given how (relativly ) little we see of Renarin, I think this list is pretty comprehensive. As I said though, Adolin isn't sloppy but he doesn't run to the extreme end of the spectrum. Most people are nearer the middle of most traits and I see Adolin in the same light. True perfectionists really struggle to cope with ideas and situations that don't match their carefully laid plans. Adolin copes almost too well when he has to throw his plans out the window - perfectionists don't do that, by definition, because you can't make it perfect if you are making it up as you go along. Adolin's ability to cope with fast changing, unpredictable situations and take them in his stride is an admirable trait, but it is not perfectionism. Being good at something doesn't make you a perefectionist - you need to be unsatisfied with anything less than perfection to be a perfectionist. As a side point, perfectionists tend to be very difficult to work or live with. They may tolerate imperfection in friends or family, but may also expect equal levels of perfection, particularly in their partner or children. They often find it difficult to manage in owrk situations when they have to work alongside people who are happy to 'just make do' with the situation. Adolin is too easy going to be a perfectionist - he tolerates others flaws too well. Just because he wants to fill Dalinar's perception of him, doesn't make him a perfectionist, it makes him guilty of a massive hero-worship complex for his father. I have a slightly less anti Adolin take on this. I think he wants to keep Shallan, but understandably is worried he can't. He is not bad to her here, but he doesn't understand what is happening and plays the problem poorly as a result. I don't think we are meant to think he wants to run, because otherwise he wouldn't have let Shallan talk him back into the relationship (i hope). However, he may look back and wish he had run a mile because I suspect she is going to hurt him very very badly.
  11. Hi all. I had a lovely (in my eyes anyway) post for you all to pick apart but then the gas man came, turned off the power and by the time I got back to my laptop the battery had died and lost all my work. I can't be bothered to re-do it but I would like to raise some points: 1) Character flaws for Adolin: a) Arrogance: I don't think Adolin is truly arrogant. To me, arrogance suggests a belief and pride in a skill/trait that you don't actually possess. Adolin is not truly guilty of this in OB. I think there was some arrogance regarding his duelling, but I think it has stopped now that he is "duelling champion" - he doesn't need to prove he is as good as he thinks he is - he has proven that he is better than any other lighteyed person competeing in duels. It is enough for him so he can relax on that score. I don't think it relates to his feelings on inferiority regarding the radiants - I think these two ideas are separate personally. Adolin wasn't arrogant in all areas of his life before OB and I don't see much change to be honest. (b) Workaholic: Nope. He never was one. He has a decent work ethic but he isn't a workaholic. He spends far too much time lounging about with friends and girls. He drinks (albeit lightly), he duels, even when he isn't really supposed to, and he spends 2 weeks in prison because it felt right. That isn't what a workaholic would do. This isn't a critiscm of him - I think Adolin's work ethic is reasonable and decent - he doesn't take it to extremes. (c) Perfectionist I don't actually think so. Again, Adolin doesn't really do extremes. He is capable of "perfection" in his duel in WoR, but he doesn't fight perfectly in the others (which he doesn't chafe at - which is what you'd expect from a perfectionist). He also tolerates being teased by Renarin for changing partners every 5 minutes. He even likes Wit despite being teased about it - which is something he worries about internally but can still manage to laugh about. A perfectionist would either make it work with someone, or, more likely, stay single until they found their "perfect" partner. Additionally we see plenty of situations where he isn't a perfectionist - he doesn't hold to or follow the codes perfectly, he doesn't behave "perfectly" in Alethi society, he admits to not working terribly hard at learning things in the past - and multiple people think he is not that bookish. To me Renarin is the perfectionist - not Adolin. d) Selfless: Not sure how anyone could call this a flaw? That aside, I don't see Adolin as being more selfless than some other members of the cast. I mean, he's not selfish, but there are other members of the cast who are at least equally selfless in my opinion. He is definitely more selfless than plenty of them but I don't see how Kaladin running at the front of the bridgecrews (even before he knows about his stormlight) is less selfless than anything Adolin does? Adolin, again, simply doesn't do things to extreme levels. He's too normal. e) Lack of self confience: So this obviously relates to the arrogance point, but I don't think Adolin is truly lacking in self-confidence. He is neither the most nor the least confident person we see. Kaladin is a naturally confident person (indeed bordering on arrogant) whose experiences have broken that confidence. Shallan is prbably similar, but she broke at a much younger age. Renarin lacks confidence on a much deeper level (indeed I suspect he wouldn't have been confident regardless of upbringing). Dalinar fakes confidence most of the time. Jasnah, in contrast is genuinely confident ost of the time, but has flashes of self-doubt. I think Adolin is much less confident than Jasnah, but nowehere near Renarin's level. He is middle of the road again. f) Emotional sensitivity: Adolin is neither very sensitive, nor especially insensitive. He definitely misses important cues for people's emotions. I would obviously argue that if he were more sensitive, I would be less worried about his marriage to Shallan. He reads some people very well. Renarin and Dalinar of course spring to mind. To me, anyway, it is clear he has spent much more time with men in general and thus reads them better. This may also relate to the fact that as he is "menatlly direct" and thus understands others who also tend to be more direct better than those who are more esoteric. He learns to read Kaladin pretty quickly as a result, and I think it is true of Skar and Drehy. Note that men tend to be more straightforward in their emotional responses, women tend to obfuscate more. I don;t therefore blame Adolin for missing things, but I don't think you can say he is the best in the cast at it when we see him miss several cues that we see. And not just in OB - he misses things from Shallan in WoR. It's not surprising that he would read Renarin and Dalinar well - they are family after all, but I don't think he is better at reading people than most of our cast. Jasnah certaily reads Shallan better than he does for example. It may even be the situation that most of Bridge 4 are not far behind Adolin in reading Renarin now - they he is certainly completely at home with them now - perhaps even more so than he is with Adolin. I think my point is mostly that once again, Adolin is not sitting at either ends of the spectrum. g) Abdication of duty: I personally feel this is neither a virtue nor a flaw. The issue is that Adolin doesn't tell us what his motivations are. I think he believes that he wouldn't be very good at being king, and frankly, I agree with him. If this is his genuine reason, then it is a good thing - he is a better man than Elhokar in this for example. On the other hand, if his motivation is more about not wanting the responsibility - then it is a flaw. I mean, OB in particular was all about taking responsibility - so this ending doesnt exactly bode well for Adolin. Given that we may be supposed to take Adolin at face value then I feel we can see this as a positive (for now anyway - although I would be unsurprised at future implications). h) Lack of remorse Probably the single biggest concern I have regarding Adolin. People don't learn from mistakes if they don't see them as mistakes. Adolin's attitude was worry about how the murder would be perceived - which I feel feeds into the appearance thing he has. He was less concerned with the morality of the situation. He doesn't seem to worry about that aspect of the crime - his thoughts revolve more around avoiding getting caught and hiding it from dalinar. Given that you yourself have said that we are supposed to be able to read Adolin easily and not infer things from him, I find this argument unlikely. Adolin himself doesn't think the comment was unfair. I suspect it wasn't - You don't get nasty to someone you dated previously without it being a consequence of their treatment of you. And this I just don't get. Either we are supposed to be able to read between the lines for Adolin, or we aren't. If we aren't then I have not seen any evidence to support this assertion. If we are, then we open up loads of issues regarding Adolin, like the underlying situation for Sadeas' murder. It can't be both. I'm afraid to suggest that you seem to be projecting somewhat. My point is that Adolin does put himself first in most of his relationships because he doesn't actually make any effort with his partners. Even if that a consequence of a lack of self-esteem, someone who truly put themselves last wouldn't ignore their partners because they were afraid of commitment. They'd work harder, probably destroying the relationship in the process. Nothing I have read in book or from WoB suggests this is the case to Adolin imo. TL;DR? well Adolin is middle of the road - he doesn't actually have many extremes. The only extreme situation he creates is the murder of Sadeas and we haven't yet seen the full ramifications of that either interally or externally.
  12. True. It is difficult to get a specific reason for Adolin's "badness" at relationships. Given that I think we are meant to be able to infer pretty obvious motivations from Adolin most of the time (given other WoBs on Adolin). I personally think your premise is correct - he simply isn't ready for a long-term commitment yet but unluckily for him Alethi society doesn't really allow this. IRL people would see him as a bit of a player, but because he wouldn't be forced to commit before he was ready, he would probably be less self-sabotaging because he wouldn't be expected to propose until a great deal later in the relationship. Indeed, IRL he might have longer relationships and therefore not end up on an "epic level blind date" with Shallan because his relatives wouldn't have been so desperate for him to settle down. There are other more subtle motivations that could be ascribed to Adolin, but I just don't think we are meant to go there with him. The obvious motivation (to me anyway) is just that he isn't ready. It isn't really lack of self-confidence so much as the fact that very few people in their early 20s are "confident" in relationships. This is one of the main reasons I am against Shadolin (at this time anyway). Granted I am firmly on SS Shalladin, but I feel that also isn't right at the moment - again they are both too young to commit. That said, Kaladin is capable of deep commitment to people in a way Adolin just doesn't seem to match - he is committed to Renarin and Dalinar but he doesn't commit and bond to others the way Kaladin does. Yeah, in theory it means you don't have to feel guilty about dumping them, but in reality you have to put up with someone you aren't actually compatible with for much longer than if you just dropped them. I think Adolin would rather be seen as "having a different girl each week" even if it implies that he is a bit of a player/womanizer/useless at relationships than admit to society that he isn't actually ready to commit - especially as everyone round him seems to be looking to settle down (except Renarin of course). Actually, on that note, is it possible that some of Adolin's reluctance to commit is related to him not wanting to make Renarin feel inadequate in comparison? I mean, he knows Renarin feels inadequate in other areas...? Just a thought.
  13. I don't know.... I mean he was dating one woman and hit on her sister at the same time at one point. It is why they broke up. I don't think "womanizer" works properly as an epithet for him, but his commitment issues are a thing. Given that there is a WoB on Adolin self-sabotaging his relationships, I do agree that we have to assume he has done this multiple times. The thing is, I am less sure why he does it so consistently. I mean, I get that he lacks confidence in this area, but that doesn't mean he lacks confidence in every area of his life. It is not clear to me why he lacks confidence in this area - he seems happy to approach women of various descriptions and start things off most of the time. My personal take is that Adolin is more concerned with the appearance of his love-life than the depth of it. He is certainly concerned with appearances in other settings, not only his own. I suspect this is the real damage that Dalinar's treatment of him caused - he needed to be loved/accepted etc and so tried to portray the perfect son (nb reflects Shallan's perfect daughter issues) and he tries to be the perfect boyfriend/fiancee/husband as well. Unfortunately for his wife, he is not nearly as committed to her as he is to Dalinar (at least not yet) and so he gets bored eventually of pretending to be something he isn't. I personally don't blame him. Don't get me wrong, he genuinely likes Shallan. I think he cares for her. But, once again, he is the normal one here. Given the brevity of their relationship, the fact that until recently they have always been heavily chaperoned, the formality of the causal, and the fact that he has pushed away every other eligible woman, it would be very odd for him to have depth of feeling yet. The problem arises because he has manoeuvered himself into a position where he has to marry her. That is, until he sees an out - then he uses it. Unfortunately for him, she doesn't let him and they end up married. I don't think Adolin is completely aware of his self-sabotaging behaviour - he certainly doesn't seem to be anyway so he seems happy enough in the marriage. I just think that both he and Shallan are telling themselves a lie here to make the marriage work. That isn't healthy for either of them. It will unravel unless some serious honesty happens. Perhaps even that can't save it. So as @maxal ointed out there is a WoB on this. But having low self-esteem in one area doesn't mean he lacks confidence in other areas. I suppose you could even argue that both Kaladin and Adolin have less confidence in romance than they do in other parts of their lives. They are young, its normal. Indeed of the 3 of them, Shallan shows the least concern in this area - particularly once she already feels more secure about Adolin. I feel that Adolin spends most of his time wearing a mask of sorts. He has pretended that he is the perfect son and prince for so long (for Dalinar) that he does it automatically now. It isn't like Shallan's situation, and I don't think it is "unhealthy" except that it risks him blowing up against expectations - like when he murdered Sadeas. If he genuinely is more concerned with appearance (nb he notices appearace a lot - eg he notices Danlan matches her wine to her outfit) then his moral outlook will be very much greyer than (eg) Dalinar's because it will be more fluid to fit in with the people he is on display to. There is nothing wrong with that - indeed it actually makes him a very useful secondary character because his morality will allow him to do things others can't or won't in similar situations. I agree with this. I would even argue that he deliberately annoys girls to get them to break things off for him. I don't know about you, but I've done this with 1 ex and it is very effective, although in my case it took far longer than I'd have liked!
  14. On one hand, I agree with you, but on another I suspect this may be a consequence of Adolin being difficult to read correctly as a result of much of his behaviour being portrayed by Shallan who is very unreliable. I'd go so far as to worry about everything we see from Shallan - not necessarily assume that everything she tells us is wrong, but perhaps we should consider that each scene she shows us has errors in it. For one thing, we know she deliberately hides stuff from us (well Brandon does, but who's checking ) because she doesn't tell us about time she spends with Kaladin when they are alone (flight to TC and drawings she does outside Urithiru), and she has known/proven gaps in her memory that even she is somewhat aware of (think the drawings that she doesn't remember drawing). I would be quite comfortable with believing that she is deliberately not seeing Adolin's wandering eyes any more because it worries her. Perhaps one of the reasons Veil is less keen on Adolin is that she sees these flaws because they are pushed away from "Shallan". I am not able to prove this of course, but I think it might explain why the wandering eyes disappear a bit whilst still allowing for Adolin to be internally consistent. He definitely looks at Azure (although I don't think there is a sexual element there) but Shallan doesn't really comment on it. Of course, in OB Adolin also has relatively little interaction with women aside from Shallan. I do wonder if some of Shallan's jealousy of one of Adolin's former lovers comes from a subconscious concern about his flightiness with regards to women. The other people we see who tell us the most about Adolin are Kaladin and Dalinar. Kaladin is not terribly woman-focused (for the most part) and probably wouldn't comment unless Adolin was being really obvious. Dalinar is seemingly oblivious to Adolin's romantic proclivities - he didn't even try to keep up with Adolin's conquests before Shallan, and only really thought about them as tending to be rather vapid. On top of that, for OB Dalinar is largely separated from Adolin, and also concerned with more important things. The reason I think this might be the case is because Adolin's internal narrative doesn't quite match (as pointed out previously by ? @Dreamstorm I believe?) with his actions as seen by Shallan. His thoughts about Azure and Shallan certainly don't match up with what he says to Shallan when they are on the ship and have changed clothes. Albeit his most flattering comments are actually for Kaladin so what to make of that I don't know.... I'm afraid I can't get on board Kadolin as a ship - but only from Kaladin's side - I could see Adolin going down that route, but not Kaladin - his thoughts about Adolin don't strike me that way at all. He is much more physically aware of Shallan all the time. I could probably get on board Kalarin more because Kal and Renarin to me work better - although I don't like the idea of Renarin viewing Kaladin as his (military) superior and also being involved romantically. I would also feel this way about any other person who was subordinate to Kaladin because of the problems of abuse of power and related issues.
  15. Its certainly a valid interpretation. The point I am trying to make is that the "wandering eyes" comment only happens because Shallan is already in a semi-formal relationship with Adolin. Adolin is also the known quantity here, I doubt very much if Jasnah would choose him over Kaladin (or vice versa) for Shallan if she knew Adolin and Kaladin equally well. She simply wouldn't care because the ends are her goal with Shallan, not how she gets there. She is worried about Shallan's loyalties (understandably) and needs to make sure she has some control (via a proxy) over Shallan's actions. Adolin is easy to manipulate (from Jasnah's persepective) and thus a safer bet for Shallan, but in the long run, because he is easy to manipulate, Shallan will eventually manipulate Adolin (indeed we know Shallan already is manipulating Adolin, but Jasnah doesn't know this) and thus Kaladin is actually the better bet (from Jasnah's perspective I think) because his motivations are pretty transparent, but he isn't going to be swayed from his moral path which makes him a known quantity going forward. Jasnah may not agree with his ethics, but they are pretty set in stone, whereas Adolin's are much more fluid. Indeed, if Adolin does go dark, I would expect Shallan to have essentially helped him get there - (a la the "hardening" of Alistair or Leliana in Dragon Age Origins) I very much agree that Shallan's interpretation is important because it is this moment where Veil starts to show interest in Kaladin. Some of that may have happened anyway, but it is clear that Veil did not have those feelings (likely this alter wasn't actually capable of those kinds of feelings initially) and after this the crush is pushed onto her so "Shallan" doesn't have to deal with it. I was more addressing the idea that Jasnah is being manipulative which I don't actually see - I think she has multiple reasons to promote the wedding - and I genuinely think she wants Shallan to be happy and not be "forced" into marrying Adolin if she doesn't want to. The issue is that Shallan is continuing the betrothal and thus her "wandering eyes" should be discouraged - at least until Shallan drops Adolin. Jasnah likely cares for Adolin - we see her caring a great deal for Renarin - and she wouldn't want him hurt unnecessarily. Given that it seems likely that Jasnah saw at least one of her parents (Gavilar) was probably unfaithful she likely has a pretty dim view of infidelity in marriage. I don't blame her for advocating against marital/pre-marital infidelity - indeed one of the ways she is "like a spren" (acording to Ivory) may be that she has "extrreme" views - like the Stormfather does. Interestingly, I think that Jasnah would be very annoyed if Shallan cheated on Adolin (she might accept "looking" as long as it wasn't too focussed on a single person) despite her own attitude to marriage. That being said, if the marriage was failing (particularly for reasons aside from infidelity), I could see Jasnah supporting divorce as an option (NB she is possibly technically the head of the Vorin Church - like the Queen of England (etc) is the head of the Church of England). Thus a divorce may need to be granted by Royal Decree. If I'm right, then she would probably allow a divorce because she isn't bound to the Church - and it's beliefs/customs - like I suspect Elhokar would have been.