• Content count

  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won


Dreamstorm last won the day on February 26

Dreamstorm had the most liked content!

Community Reputation

1,192 Twinborn


About Dreamstorm

Recent Profile Visitors

978 profile views
  1. This is a great point, and one which I was thinking about in connection with Calderis' point about showing romantic relationships at the stage beyond infatuation and attraction. I have a huge sticking point with the SKA resolution from a literary standpoint, which is I do not understand Kal's role in all this as it played out, but for the sake of argument, let's say that was satisfactorily resolved/we rewind time and not have him involved. Do I see a path forward where I could see Shadolin come around to being a satisfying romance? I think yes, but it would take a lot of work. Shallan has a lot of issues, and it wouldn't work for me to have Adolin just stand by being endlessly loving and supportive while she painfully worked through them. I think what could be good, would be a relationship pushed to breaking, with an incredibly frustrated Adolin, a Shallan who is becoming more independent (and whole), and then seeing it stitched back together. So, I think I would need a reboot. So, I guess what I feel more than anything is Shallan needs a new romance, but I could see that "new" romance being with Adolin himself if done in the right way. Question for you if you don't mind sharing... who did you ship after WoR? I always assumed you were a Shadolin shipper going into OB, but maybe not? I also have a lot of confusion about Shallan, and it doesn't help in all of this, it's so tied to her romantic arc (where many of us have strong opinions.) I hate when I'm worried I believe something only because of confirmation bias! I agree with parts of this but not others. I don't think she is becoming other people, but I do think she is in some ways like an actor trying on roles. We all do this to some extent - we have a work persona, a social persona, a family persona, a 17th shard persona () which likely all vary at least a bit - but Shallan takes this to a pathological level. (My interpretation is highly influenced by this WoB, as I've fit my view of Shallan into how he's describing it btw.) All of these personas are actually Shallan, just as who I am at work is me, even if I'm suppressing my contradictory side, as much as who I am out with friends is still me, even if I'm suppressing my more responsible side. There isn't a "real" me which is hidden underneath all of these, instead all of these are me, just pruned and accented in little ways to fit the situation I am in. Shallan obviously takes this to an extreme (and she most certainly views these personas as not her, hence the back stories and referring to them as different from her), but they are still all Shallan. I think this distinction is really accented when you take the intimacy part - Shallan is no less Shallan when she has dark hair and is suppressing her proper side, etc. Adolin may not be attracted to that side of Shallan, but that means that he is not attracted to part of Shallan, which is why that is a bit distressing. Just saw you responded to the thread as I was writing! I agree with a lot of your characterization of Shallan, but I wanted to throw out this WoB regarding Adolin's perceptiveness... It's from before OB (and obviously WoBs are soft cannon), but it does line up with how I see Adolin a lot with Shallan - kind of tone deaf... not noticing her distress when asking to teach her to use her sword or when she finds out Kaladin killed Heleran, or her exhaustion when escaping from Kholinar, or focusing on her outfit when she returns after the Wit conversation (Shallan seems a bit exasperated there with her "Oh, Adolin.") But I know these things can of course be read in different ways! I wanted to highlight the things in bold, though. Adolin doesn't even know about her childhood or the source of her grief and trauma, so I find it hard to believe he could really know her. That trauma and broken childhood is so far a very central part of Shallan's character as it is presented to the reader, so I find it hard to believe anyone who doesn't have any idea of what she went through can really begin to understand her. Ok, you convinced me. I need a thread on Pattern and Shallan. Pattern finds the lies so fascinating and yet he is distressed by them, ahhhh, I can't wrap my head around it.
  2. I don't know if I have much to add, but I want to comment first on the situation Brandon has written himself into, and then why some of this Adolin controversy gives me hope for the future. I voted neutral. After WoR, this would have been mostly positive. Why did this change? Simply, in WoK and WoR, Adolin was less likeable. He was frivolous, a bit of a cad, worried about superficial things like his house's reputation over his father's madness, racist (against dark eyes), concerned with status, a bit mean (to Kaladin), etc., but this was balanced with a genuinely kind, loyal, funny, friendly, outgoing person. (Btw, I know a lot of people disagree with my list of "bad" traits, but this is just my opinion and why I liked Adolin.) In OB, as many have mentioned before, these bad traits appear to have disappeared. Adolin is more likeable, but this makes him IMO, a worse character. Many of the popular plotlines for Adolin's future development would not do anything for me in terms of developing Adolin's character, as they would make him even more likeable. Revive his deadeye by being nice to her - more likable, furious at his father for his mother's death - more likeable, supportive and amazing to his mentally ill wife - more likeable. I see three storylines which have great potential, but since these would serve to make him less likeable, I think they would be on the whole quite unpopular to the fanbase. Feelings about Sadeas murder: Brandon has said that there are characters who would feel this is very, very wrong, something we did not see in OB. Who could this be? My bet is on Evi, who would have not been happy with her son killing someone in cold blood. WoB also says Adolin's early morality came from his mother, so I am thinking there could be internal ramifications about Adolin's own disgust in himself for being satisfied with the murder, which will lead him down a dark path. (Warring subconscious and all that.) Relationship issues: This was supposed to have a large impact on Adolin's character arc per WoB, but we haven't seen anything come of it so far. I'm thinking Adolin is the one who brings about the downfall of his marriage as an extension on these issues, and this puts forward another reason for Adolin to be upset at his own actions and reactions. (Again, Evi would not be OK with this IMO.) Abdicating responsibility to be king: Was it bad that Adolin didn't want to become king and managed to get out of it? I am thinking yes, which is yet another thing where what Adolin wants (to not be king) wars with what Adolin knows is really right (to shoulder responsibility.) So.... you have an author who has created an extremely likeable character, who may be the most beloved character in Stormlight, and whose fanbase is enamored because of that likeability. Can you really go down any of these paths and make that character less likeable? Isn't that betraying your fanbase? (I'm guessing the majority of this fandom would not like any of the above to come to fruition.) That is why I am pessimistic about where we are going with Adolin - I don't know if Brandon is willing to exploit storylines which would place Adolin in a negative light but that I think would add (or re-add) nuance to Adolin's character. One thing gives me hope though.... I think this is a consequence of his limited viewpoints. They're sparse enough that it's pretty much always focused on the matter of something else than his personal issues. I quoted this more as an example of what I see as an interesting phenomenon with Adolin. Adolin actually has a lot of viewpoints (fourth most prominent viewpoint character), but they really don't tell us all that much about him, or what they do tell us can be read in vastly different ways. That is why @Ailvara can feel one way about the exact same events and both her and Calderis perspectives can make complete sense depending on how you view Adolin. It doesn't take a lot of page time to develop a character's emotions. Look at Renarin - three (?) partial viewpoints (not even full chapters), and I feel like we as readers have a more cohesive view of Renarin as a character than we do of Adolin. Brandon is a skilled enough author that he could have developed Adolin into a more cohesive character. Shoutout @maxal who is always saying that Brandon didn't do a good job in convincing people of various things about Adolin, which is exactly my point - if he meant to convince readers, why did he do such a poor job of it? I realize Adolin may be clear to a reader in their own minds, but overall and moreso than any other character I've seen in the Cosmere, there are people with very strongly held feelings about Adolin that are polar opposites. My hope (hope!) is that this is intentional, and it's not that Brandon dropped the ball, but that he has left Adolin vague on purpose in order to allow his plans for Adolin down the road to connect to what we know of him, yet still flip the script on how he's generally viewed - as this so, so likeable guy. But, I realize this could be a lot of wishful thinking as well! (And would also make a lot of readers quite unhappy!)
  3. Yeah, I don't know if anyone (?) would have thought this was Shallan absent the WoB, so it seemed to me like a little (maybe intentional) reveal. Kaladin hadn't met Shallan at that point in the books, so he couldn't have recognized her. The first PoV we see from Kaladin where he's around Shallan (which isn't until the training grounds one, where Shallan plays Adolin - super funny scene) he doesn't recognize her, so it doesn't appear Shallan's face stuck in his mind from that moment. I haven't done a full look to see if at any point Syl mentions, or Kal thinks, she looks familiar though. I'm guessing that might be there somewhere...
  4. I thought that too at first, but I looked at all the times Syl dresses like a Vorin woman in OB, or when she's disguising herself in Shademar, and none of those scenes fit (doesn't change her face to look different, Shallan isn't on a beach or anything close.) In our next present-day Shallan chapter in WoR (Ch 11), she wakes up on the shore after the destruction of the Wind's Pleasure. Syl is also talking about how there are other unknown Radiants out there in that passage, which fits Shallan at that time. If there's something else you recall that fits, I'd love to hear!
  5. WoR chapter 9 - here is the quote: I also started a thread on it a little bit ago if you have any interest in discussing it
  6. Hi all - Adolin is definitely a sources of contention in many topics around here, so I was curious about the split in how people feel about him generally. I realize some people like or dislike him based on his character, whereas others do based on how he is written as a character, but I tried to keep this general.
  7. I think this is an excellent point, but I'd actually counter that Brandon has become IMO pretty good at showing the "ever after" part of relationships. I totally agree that some of them (Sarene/Raoden, Suri/Susebron) are rote romantic tropes/infatuation/dramatic hijinks to create a good story, but Brandon's best romances are those which shows the next steps. I think Navani and Dalinar exemplify this well. I wasn't too blown away by it in WoK - we were kind of dropped in at the middle of their story after all - but seeing a bit of the "before" in flashbacks, plus especially how Navani (from her PoV) deals with Dalinar's descent into alcoholism, made me a true believer in the couple. It was seeing the really hard work which is required to sustain that relationship (any relationship really) that sold it for me, and it make reading their story in WoK again an absolute pleasure. I imagine we are going to get more of that dynamic (or I hope we do!) I experienced similar feelings with Vin/Elend. Don't get me wrong, I loved the ball scenes (I'm a sucker for secret nobility, though I'm a sucker for most romantic tropes ), but I found the "omg I love him/her!" at the end of FE and all the back and forth in WoA a bit eye rolling. By the time we get a real relationship in HoA, I started to feel like they were real. One of my huge gripes about female heroines in many books is that once the woman meets her man, she suddenly becomes less competent and independent. I loved, loved how Vin and Elend were able to maintain separate roles in the story in HoA, though it remained clear that their bond was strong. I'm curious (if you're interested in discussing) your thoughts on Wax and Steris. I thought that was Brandon's best "falling in love" story so far, and one which IMO felt like it was developed into actual love (the honeymoon phase, to be sure, but a real love.) That (and I can't wait to see where that relationship goes in W&W4!) and how Dalinar and Navani is developing just made me all the more sad that we got a rather superficial romance for Shallan, where I definitely see it composed of infatuation and attraction, and like you mention, that is just not as satisfying. I also have really enjoyed the poll, though perhaps I had a little different take on it than you had. I found a couple things interesting. First, in the post-WoR poll on Shallan's romantic choices, those who chose either Kaladin or Adolin were split 50/50. Here we currently have a 60% Shadolin post-WoR/40% Shalladin post-WoR split, which means the Shard has swung a bit more Shadolin in the past few years. (Curious to see if this moves as more people vote, maybe should bump that in a couple weeks? It's shifted a bit more Shalladin (33% to 40%) in the past few days.) Secondly, we currently have 34% of those who care about the outcome unconvinced that's over. I'm going to make an assumption here that all of those who do not believe it's over were Shalladin fans pre-OB (realizing that some of the disappointed Shadolin fans may have switched or the don't cares have a perspective), but if we take that assumption at face value, 96% of Shalladin fans remain convinced it's not over. So either Brandon wildly missed the mark in convincing the people who needed to be convinced (as its not the Shadolin fans who need to be won over, of course, as they were looking for reasons for the choice to be Adolin in the first place) of the veracity of the ending, or.... @RainStorm this is not directed specifically at you, but just a general comment. Brandon loves a love triangle. It's kind of what he does. It's been in every series in one form or another. Are aforementioned SKA drama, Dalinar-Navani-Gavilar, Wax-Steris-Marasi, Vin-Elend-Zane, and I know some might not see it that way, but Suri-Susebron-Vivenna and Sarene-Raoden-Hrathen were also love triangles, as in the insertion of another person into the main romantic storyline was used to create tension in the relationship. So like them or not, this does seem to be Brandon's MO. I'm pretty confident in my opinion on this subject in general (though that's not to say I can't discuss it for the next three years ), but Pattern is my main sticking point. I 100% agree (although this was not exactly your point), that Pattern seems to be on Team Shadolin, and I've found that to be the most convincing argument that maybe this whole thing is over. But I don't buy Pattern's opinion (or opinion at some junctures) overrides the rest of the narrative elements which convince me that's not the case and well, I'm just confused by aspects of Pattern's relationship with Shallan in general. (It's a bit off topic, but he seems to love Shallan's lies, but also not like them at the same time. Actually I think my next topic may be discussing this, hmmmm, especially if it can stay out of the love arc...) You should take a look at @Ailvara's poll that was linked earlier, as you'll find that Shalladin as the better romance was definitely not ingrained in the fandom. The best I've seen is 50/50, and it appears that the majority of the fandom at this point in time was pro-Shadolin prior to OB. (This mirrors my own experience; when I found this board over the summer, I found the fandom to be highly pro-Shadolin.) Additionally, 2/3rds believe it to be over, and though we don't know how happy all 2/3rds of those are, that's the number which think Shallan chose Adolin with finality. So your opinion on who is the better prospect and whether there was a final choice is definitely the majority opinion! That being said, I agree with your point is that if this is the ending, it was poorly done, as it wasn't convincing to the half/less than half of the fandom who did need convincing, the Shalladin fans. I wasn't even a strong Shalladin fan (I'd say I was 60% Shalladin/40% Shadolin pre-OB, though would have chosen Shalladin if forced to pick), but mostly I just wanted a good romance. And in the end, that's what I don't think Brandon delivered. But, you're absolutely correct when you say that I'm now hoping it's not over partly because I really want there to be a good romance for Shallan in the future. I've found a lot of textual evidence to back up that it's not over, but absolutely that dissatisfaction was while I went looking in the first place. That being said... I absolutely disagree that this would have been the reaction of most Shalladin fans. I actually have not seen a single person express the opinion on the prior thread that the wish was for Shallan to choose Kaladin at the end of OB. I've actually heard mostly (like I feel) that it would have been way worse for her to choose Kaladin, as that would have felt even more rushed and false. Those two haven't even broached their feelings for one another after all. What would have rung true for me, is that we know via WoB that these "alters" aren't actually alters, but instead masks. As Brandon said, "She's playing roles as she puts them on, but I make it very clear (with deliberate slip-ups of self-reference in the prose) that it's always Shallan in there, and she's specifically playing this role because it lets her ignore the things she doesn't want to face." It's very clear at the end that these roles Shallan is playing are not in agreement, and Shallan seems to realize that. They are actually fighting in the text about this decision! I would have loved if instead of pushing two of these "roles" (which are all her) into the back of her brain, Shallan realized that she's so storming confused she needs to take a step back from romance and figure out her own self. Now that, that I would have cheered wholeheartedly, regardless of which guy she ended up dating down the line. ETA: @maxal I think all your points on the narrative fail/disconnect/reason for the Adolin/Sadeas plotline or lack thereof in OB are really interesting, and I'd love to discuss in another thread. (Trying to keep with the moderator request that subjects not get consolidated into one thread!)
  8. @Chaos title changed
  9. @Chaos I thought the concern with ASK was along the lines that discussion about those characters (Adolin, Shallan and Kaladin) in general happened within the thread, instead of out in other threads which could draw a larger audience. I personally like (and have missed) discussing the love triangle (or Shallan's romantic arc in OB, as I like to call it given we didn't get much true triangulation (unless we count Kadolin ), to our collective relief), and given what was said in the Maya thread that discussion about the romantic arc was not being discouraged, and was in fact encouraged, led me to start this thread. Would it work better if the thread was renamed "SKA - is it resolved?"? Or I can even rename it something like "Kaladin and Shallan is end game" to make it clear my perspective on the issue?
  10. @Zellyia Thanks for sharing that personal story. I totally understand that characters and plots in stories can remind us of personal experiences, and in fact part of the reason I really didn't like the moment when Adolin grabbed Shallan's hand and "saw" Shallan (be that the Shallan personality or the real Shallan, depending on your perspective) is because that moment reminded me too strongly about the millions of times the patriarchy has told me who I should be and how I should act and what is best for me without regard for my own feelings, so much so that it is often very hard to separate what the patriarchy is telling me from who I actually am and what I actually want. I had a very visceral reaction to that moment, as it sounds like you do to the idea of the Shallan and Kaladin relationship. That moment was partly the reason I was so disappointed in the Shadolin storyline (not for the choice which was made, but how it was made, and that a male writer was the one who wrote it for his main female character), which caused me to look deeper into the books for hope that moment wasn't what it seemed. I know since you're happy with the resolution, you won't have the similar urge, but I wanted to share a personal connection I had to the storyline as well
  11. No, no Adolin death! Adolin goes to Rira with Drehy, where Adolin figures out he is gay and meets a hot Iriali boy. Flirtation and hijinks ensue, until they have a secret marriage in front of Cusicesh, whom Adolin subsequently bonds inventing a whole new type of bonded human/spren relationship. Odium decides this is too adorable and leaves Adolin and his new husband alone. The whole Iriali/Rira following Odium problem solved!
  12. I like this list. Great idea @maxal. A couple questions/additions of mine: Adolin spends a lot of time thinking about and admiring Kaladin in OB. Is there any chance Adolin is gay or bisexual? 8) Adolin does not think about Shallan much in either WoR or OB, and he notably does not think that he loves her or tell her this (on page) before their marriage. Is Adolin in love with Shallan or is she just the "latest girl"? Is divorce permissible in Vorinism? Is there birth control on Roshar? Following up on May question (and kind of silly): Is there any connection between the names May Aladar and Mayalaran? They are close to identical.
  13. Let's try this all again! There has been many a view on Shallan's romantic arc in Oathbringer (otherwise known as the infamous "love triangle"), and considering a recent poll shows one-third of this board remains unconvinced that the marriage of our young married couple is really all she (um, he) wrote, it appears there is still division on the topic. Two preliminary points: One, I changed the title to reflect my personal feelings on the importance of the characters in this discussion. "S" for our girl Shallan (it is her romance regardless of outcome after all), "K" for our main character Kaladin, then "A" for our tertiary character Adolin (sorry, Adolin fans, that's the word of the man himself.) Plus that spells Ska, which just happens to be a word used elsewhere in the Cosmere! Could this be significant? Let's discuss! (Kidding, even I'm not that crazy.) Two, here is a link to a document compiled by the intrepid @Ailvara during the prior discussion. This is a little out of date, but suggestions for edits (and also counterpoints!) would be much welcome. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VqLjiUojkPqIfLJLyu7OnykTP3i-LG0f5f1KjRSJE6A/edit
  14. I'm with you here. I definitely get upset as well when people say that arguments in support of Shalladin, or just shipping arguments in general, lack objectivity, and that such arguments are inherently less rational than arguments supporting a different perspective or on other subjects. Which is exactly what I was being told earlier in this thread. (For what it's worth, I haven't seen you personally do this.) Adolin comes into it, because no matter how attenuated the reasoning, I don't generally see the same type of disparaging "oh, you can't actually do an objective analysis on this" or "oh, you are just drawing your interpretation out of thin air" implications come into the picture when it's an Adolin-positive argument. To that end, you and thegatorgirl00 are definitely interpreting Adolin's behavior as positively as possible in that scene, and I doubt you'd see much, if any, push back that the subject is too subjective to analyze or that you are imaging those interpretations with lack of textual evidence, given as similar arguments have been made before without it (or if that occurred, it has been met with extreme consternation.) That was my point.
  15. Thanks, @Jofwu, that was exactly my point. I actually agree with CrazyRioter's interpretation of the subtext (regarding the 10 heartbeats), but interpretations that utilize subtext tend to get shot down a lot around here, which was my original point. Now.... since we're on the subject of subjectivity, it seems to be on topic why some interpretations of subtext go ignored while others are seen as valid. Much of that seems to center around how people feel about Adolin. For whatever reason, he seems to make objectivity go out the window when people are looking for interpretations of text. (Well, I can guess the reason, he is a dreamy-looking, rich prince after all so I can certainly see the appeal ) Take the scene I quoted below, where Adolin saves a child in Thaylen City. The text on the page is simple: Adolin is trying to pursue the thunderclast, hears a whimper, grits his teeth, wishes a Radiant was around, hauls the child away and shoves the child at a soldier. Yet, this scene gets used to prove Adolin is just an incredible person (never mind that gritting ones teeth is a sign of irritation, his first thought is that he wishes a Radiant would handle it, and he unceremoniously shoves the child to the nearest person) and/or that he's amazing Edgedancer material since this shows he is remembering the forgotten (never mind that that he didn't remember anyone - he wasn't looking for non-combatants - he just didn't leave a child to die.) But the Adolin-favorable interpretation is seen as completely valid (if not a fact), along which the subtext that Brandon is clearly pointing at Adolin becoming an Edgedancer. Now, contrast that with some of the arguments you see (including above in this thread) arguing Shallan isn't attracted to Kaladin. For whatever reason, Shalladin is seen unfavorably by this community (it seems a lot of this has to do with Adolin's counter-involvement, though I know there is a strong contingent of people who just hate romance plotlines.) Take this scene below. It seems pretty obvious that Shallan is very attracted to Kaladin in this moment based on the fact this is specifically what Adolin is observing in his thoughts (not to mention confirmed by Brandon that part of Shallan is in fact in love with Kaladin), but you will have people argue, oh no, it's not that Shallan is attracted to Kaladin, she just likes drawing him (never mind that she, um, doesn't actually draw him there.) There's also interpretation based on subtext here. Brandon established clear symbolism in Shallan's chapter with Wit that Shallan needs to be the "girl who stands up." Here, not only does Shallan go from sitting with Adolin to standing when she hears Kaladin, but Adolin also specifically notes her change in posture so she "stood solidly on two feet", tying to the symbolism even more strongly. But analyses such as these are seen as "more subjective" and "influenced by shipping emotions", whereas it's totally valid to read into the subtext (on an Adolin-involved plot) that Brandon is deliberately pointing out to the reader the 10-10-7 heartbeats thing. I agree with you on the subtext of the heartbeat thing, as I've said before, but that's because I believe subtext should be taken into account for all plotlines in the book, not just plotlines which I personally want to occur.