Varenus

A little off topic, but I’d like to point out that this mission was the focus of Dalinar’s hopes at retaking Alethkar. Winning this round earned Odium control over Dalina’s homeland(not to mention Jezrien’s hiding spot), nullified some of the Radians’ advantage in deactivating an Oathgate, and firmly planted Moash in Odium’s camp(who later killed said Herald). I would hardly say that Odium got nothing for his trouble, but you do have a point in that it could have been much worse. Back on topic, I wonder how Sja-anat’s treachery plays into your theory. She was essential in the escape of the remaining members of the mission and she does have a connection to Renarin. I do think that you are correct, that there is something going on beneath the surface.

This is from the coppermind page on the Shards. Under the category titled Magic Generation. I hope this formats correctly as I am on mobile. The wiki interprets the WoB you guys discussed like this: The other WoB mentioned here is: So, I would think that there is something inherent to the planet/world that shapes how the Shards’ interact with it and how magic systems form. Shards choose to invest in a planet. The Shard’s Intent decides how people access that power. The planet itself determines how that power is made manifest. Note that quote mentions genetics, so I imagine that people might be counted as part of the planet, so you are certainly correct in thinking that people’s thoughts and spiritwebs contribute to how a magic system is formed. Consider the planet to be the second filter by which the Shard’s Investiture is molded into a full magic system. The first filter is, of course, the intent of the Shard. Ruin and Preservation had an advantage in that they could alter the second filter. Honor and Cultivation must have had a harder time because it was not their planet. To think of a reason to justify this, consider that: 1) Remember, in the Cosmere, investiture, matter, and energy are interchangeable. Odium is unable to change text in the same way Ruin did on his planet. This is because Odium did not make Roshar and is unable to manipulate its matter. Odium’s inability to change text implies that when investiture is converted into matter, it remembers which shard it belongs to. 2) Roshar was made of Adonalsium’s investiture and upon his shattering all investiture already in the Cosmere was assigned to a Shard(there is a WoB that says this). Combining these facts, Roshar and all other Shard Worlds made by Ado must now be made of a jumble of all 16 shard’s essences. Which means that Shards that choose to settle on those planets must, by necessity, be limited in their ability to manipulate the planet as they are unable to change other Shards’ Investiture. By extension, the Shard loses some control over their magic system because they cannot change the second filter by which their investiture it turned into a magic system. To borrow the analogy of building a house, My interpretation is this: You are a billionaire who wants to renovate a grand and ancient library. You supply the money(the Shard’s Investiture). You hire an architect to turn your vision of the new library into something beautiful(the Shard’s intent). Then you hire an engineer to make sure the work is done correctly(the Shard World). Lastly, you need permission from the library’s owner to make the changes(not the shard’s own shard world). The only problem is that the architect had a separate idea of how the building should look, the engineer was physically incapable of making all the changes to the building that you wanted, and the owner forbade them form making changes to certain parts of the building. When they finally get finished the building bares little resemblance to your vision.

The eternal Stick knows best. If Mistborn: Secret History is anything to go by, there does seem to be at least one qualification that needs to be met. That being said, I think Taln does meet that requirement for both Honor and Odium. Besides, Taln is just great.

@Leyrann No, Odium says in that passage that he can't be freed on accident. The person must say the words with the intent of freeing Odium for it to work. I'll post the full quote when I have the time. Also, which do you think is easier, dealing with Cultivation from Braize with who knows what restrictions or dealing with her while on Roshar and free? Perhapse I should clarify, when I say free I mean not bound by Honor and Culivation's rules. Not free as in get up and leave the planet/system. So, I agree that he has unfinished business on Roshar, but that is more easily accomplished when he can act at full strength.

@Llarimar I see what you are saying, and I do partially agree, but "Life before Death" need not be about mercy. Sometimes it's about making the best possible choice for life, even if that involves something distasteful. Which, in my mind, seems very Cultivation like. Take the difference between Jasnah's and Kaladin's philosophies for example. Jasnah puts the lives of the innocent humans over the lives of the potentially dangerous parshpeople. So you could say that Jasnah is putting "Life before Death" even though she is proposing something awful and certain to lead to death. So, really, it is up to the interpretation of the one swearing the oath.

Prescript: My apologies if this Idea has already been put forward by someone else, I checked but probably missed something. Most of what I say is likely common knowledge at this point, but my aim is to show how it is useful to Odium specifically. What we Know: Odium can be freed by someone wielding a large splinter of Honor Fused can be revived in the Everstorm Moash's dagger stole something from Jezrien The dagger works like Hemalurgy, but probably isn't Fused are gathering shardblades Sja-anat corrupts spren Theory: Odium will forge(or else acquire) a new splinter of Honor, give it to one of his minions(or willing participant), and be set free. With the death of Honor's vessel, Odium has opened a new win condition for himself that he did not have in previous Desolations. This condition was shown in Oathbringer when Dalinar told Odium to simply leave, to which Odium's answer was that he could and would if Dalinar willingly and deliberately wished him to. This is possible, according to Odium, because Dalinar has bonded the Stormfather(who has absorbed some more of Honor's investiture after he shattered). So, I think it is safe to assume that any one possessing a splinter of Honor of equal or greater magnitude to that of the Stormfather could free Odium. The question then becomes: How will Odium obtain such a large amount of Honor's investiture? Fortunately for Odium, smaller pieces of Honor are flying(literally in some cases) left, right, and center. Most notably among all the things that contain Honor's essence are the Heralds and their Honoblades. These are by far the largest splinters of Honor with the exception of the Stormfather and maybe the Sibling(the Nightwatcher is probably more of a splinter of Cultivation and therefor not as useful). So, I propose that the reason why Odium is killing Heralds is not because he is worried about the Fused getting stuck again, as the Everstorm may or may not allow them to remain on Roashar indefinably, but because he needs their pieces of Honor. The process of extracting a Herald's fragment of Honor has then already been made manifest by Moash killing Jezrien with the special dagger. The glowing light in the dagger's gemstone is likely Jezrien's splinter of Honor in this case. Odium is looking for the most pure essence of Honor he can get, so that other intents(like Cultivation's) do not interfere with his plan. To that end, he needs a way to divide the souls/spirit webs of his enemies into their Honor and Cultivation components. Hemalurgy would certainly be useful in this scenario, but Odium needs something with a smaller chance of failure. Thus the dagger is possibly a fabrial wielding the surge of spiritual division. All the benefits of Hemalurgy, but none of the hassle. The smaller pieces of Honor can then be mended by spiritual adhesion or tension if necessary(Dalinar or someone with Dalinar's specific powers may be needed). Now Odium needs to kill enough Hearlds to equal the power of the Stormfather, no easy feat. Odium could probably get the majority of them(Nale and Ishar I'm looking at you), but sooner or later the remaining Heralds and our new Radiants will wise up and band together(specifically Ash and Taln). So, Odium needs a backup plan. That plan is the Fused gathering shardbaldes and Sja-anat corrupting living spren. I think this is part of the reason the Fused are occupying places like Celebrant in the cognitive realm. If Odium can't have all the Heralds, he will replace them with all the dead spren and the living spren of the places he is occupying. Thereby proposing a moral dilemma to the forces of Honor: the lives of a few Heralds or the lives of sprenkind. I hear Tukar is nice this time of year, Shinovar too...

My guinea pigs Whitespines are attention eating my hogs, and dislike eating hay this dried shin grass I tried to feed them. I can't believe it's not butter.

***** 5/5 stars Lots of food and evil to destroy. -Nightblood

Send them all to Sel's cognitive realm and let the Dor deal with them. Edit: First ever literal interpretation of slamming the door Dor on someone's hopes and dreams.

@RShara I see what you are saying, and you may have a point. I don't expect acolytes to know everything about their order. However, I don't really think the two situations are comparable. The lift acolyte was caught in contradiction of oath. Did he let Gaux, a criminal, go and become a liar while neglecting his duty? Did he slit his throat, keeping his word and his dedication to Nale's plan, but skipping the required authorization thus breaking the law? He was in a catch 22, just like Kaladin in WoR. He didn't engineer that scenario, he acted out of instinct when there was no possible way to diffuse the situation. I don't expect acolytes to completely understand how to avoid these scenarios, especially when they are dropped directly into the center of one. This is why he said: Most importantly, he was still dealing with confirmed criminals. In your quote he says "their" laws, referring specifically to the Azish(not sure I spelled that right). He still believes that there must be some law he must adhere to in order to execute people. The Shallan acolyte acted differently. He premeditated his murder, he wasn't caught in a contradiction. Shallan wasn't a confirmed criminal as far as we know. He didn't tell his superiors about Shallan(probably) or ask for their help. He must have know that the highspren and Nale wouldn't approve, which is why I don't think it makes logical sense for him to be acting out of ambition. The only way this makes sense is if Nale and the highspren don't know what an accomplice to murder is, which is laughable considering what happened to Ym. It would make much more sense if he was simply a zealot who was sacrificing his future as a skybreaker to kill a radiant. Which is still strange for several reasons, but at least it's somewhat consistent.

But Nale didn't know he was making a lapse, he was acting in the way he thought proper. That means low amounts of skybreakers, which means he can't just make anyone and everyone into a skybreaker. His internal logic still holds, even if he is insane and was manipulated by Ishar. Perhaps he doesn't choose the best people every time, but his fourth oath skybreakers are part of the process as well. But it's stupidity to the point of disbelief. Do something stupid to Impress Nale? sure. Commit a crime to impress the Herald of Justice? Not likely. Also: if we need to count on the stupidity of our villains to have the plot make sense, then something is wrong imo. Really my issue is with Shallan's backstory, not this acolyte. Currently, too many things in her past are "just because" for my tastes. If that makes sense.

Sure, but was it not Nale's greatest fear that too many Radiants would cause another desolation? So he probably wasn't mass recruiting, and the few he did must not have been chosen at random. He must have been somewhat discerning during the recruitment process, even if not all of them would become full Radiants. If this acolyte had any hope of progressing through the ranks of the skybreakers, this was not the way of doing it. Presumably, if he was with the skybreakers long enough to know they kill radiants(long enough to kill even a child), he would know that he needed a legal excuse. But to each their own.

Not trying to disprove anything, merely adding context. I probably should have added an emoji or something to change the tone of that post, my apologies. Imo, It has been shown that there needs to be at least an attempt to administer 'justice' for a skybreaker acolyte to act. Every single one except this one apparently. What crime could Shallan possibly have committed at such a young age, in a remote part of the county? Maybe Nale could get the attention of a highprince, but some nameless acolyte? Obviously Nale didn't know about Shallan, or he would have killed her afterwords. I already outlined why it seems unlikely that the acolyte acted out of ambition... Thanks for that one.

Gawx was a thief. Nale's issue was not that he had been killed, but that the proper paperwork had not been filled out and approved yet. I Imagine that this acolyte probably wouldn't have survived Nale's punishment if Gawx was an innocent.

I suppose that makes sense. To clarify, the acolyte didn't just tell Shallan's mother to kill her, he actively participated by holding back Lin. Though that doesn't really change anything. I'm still confused about one thing however. The acolyte's motivation. There are only two things that make sense to me and neither of them are consistent with what we know: 1) Ambition: The acolytes we see in Edgedancer are practically falling over themselves trying to impress Nale and earn their blades. Perhaps this acolyte was similarly inclined and decided that killing a protoradiant would increase his standing in the eyes of Nale, the other skybreakers, and the highspren. If that is the case, he was pretty incompetent/ignorant. Because (1)he didn't tell anyone where he was or that there was a radiant(so no one can confirm or deny that he actually did it), and (2)it would have broken the law and ruined his chance at gaining a spren/Nale's approval. So ambition probably wasn't his motivation, or he was one of the ten fools. 2) Devotion: So this acolyte must staunchly believe what the Skyberakers are telling him. He must be so loyal to their cause that he is willing to ruthlessly murder a small child and believes that he must do it quickly because he doesn't bother telling the higher ups(which is weird if he was moderately new/a low standing member). This is strange because he has completely internalized part of the skybreaker's doctrine(killing radiants) while ignoring the other half(following the law). I guess that is not entirely unheard of, but this acolyte didn't seem like the particularly dedicated type considering that he was having an affair while on the job(and I say that in the least judgmental way possible, no judgment here). So even if he was fanatical in his devotion to the skybreakers, there are still things about him that don't make sense. Perhaps the answer is simply that the skybreakers are evil/insane, but I would have expected them to be a little more professional about it.